reversible moving target motor and electrical systems

[Sgtsideways]

Would like to build my own moving target trolley on track based system. Track, trolley, and cable system on pulleys is easy enough to figure out. I even know how the forward/reverse electrical works and that is easy to build with limit switches. What I haven't been able to figure is what kind of motor and electrical controls would be needed to pull what would be close to 100lbs ( AR 500 steel with the trolley weight) over 100 ft of track. It would be powered by 120v ac off a generator.

I don't think this can be done with a single phase motor via electrical magnetic contactors, but it can be done with a three phase motor. Problem with that is you would need a 1ph to 3ph static converter . That requires 240vac and you won't get that with a small 120v ac generator. a VFD system may be the way to go along with a gear reduction system on the motor. Of course the system would have to be tolerant of weather (enclosure like that of the Superior Ideas system is good and portable...........Doesn't look like they make those any more).

So any of you electrical guys have any ideas?

 

[buyobuyo]

I'd look into using a garage door opener and replace the chain with a longer one. You'd have to build a cover for the motor to protect it from the elements. You could use the remote to start the target moving from a distance. With some home integration accessories, you could probably use your phone to start the target.

 

[Sgtsideways]

I looked into that, but the problem with those motors is the duty cycle. Chain drive also presents some of its own problems too. A lot of the garage systems will only cycle so often and then shut down to protect the motor. For a target range, I'm guessing that a more robust system is needed, along with alternate power system for being out in the sticks w/o 120/240v.

 

[chevy_man]

You want a multi-voltage reversible single phase motor.

Switch leads t5 and t8 to switch direction.

There's no size to weight. It depends on drag of the system, gearing, and speed. Faster you want it the more horsepower you need. Slower will take less. Everything electrically is sized off the horsepower needs.

If you can't build that with some research, you are most likely a candidate to buy a system.


We found that attaching targets to conveyor belting works good to cushion the blow to the track. We built all ours as hanging track, having anything on the ground is a no go with our snow, wind, and dirt.

 

[Sgtsideways]

You want a multi-voltage reversible single phase motor.

Switch leads t5 and t8 to switch direction.

There's no size to weight. It depends on drag of the system, gearing, and speed. Faster you want it the more horsepower you need. Slower will take less. Everything electrically is sized off the horsepower needs.

If you can't build that with some research, you are most likely a candidate to buy a system.


We found that attaching targets to conveyor belting works good to cushion the blow to the track. We built all ours as hanging track, having anything on the ground is a no go with our snow, wind, and dirt.

Thanks for the reply. The question that I have is how did you reverse the motor direction? Manual switch or electronic control? Correct me if I'm wrong on this, because it is my understanding that the only way that you can reverse direction on single phase motors is to install a drum type of switch (Manually). Control thru magnetic contactors will not work............At least that has been my understanding.
What I'm looking to replicate is this system:


It appears that they no longer make these, but they run off a generator and have auto reversing.

Would love to see a pict. of you system.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

You can buy a 1800rpm 12VDC motor from 1/3 to 3/4 hp and run it from a battery. Many rope start gen sets have a built in battery charger or you can just install a single wire GM alternator on a rope start engine & to keep the battery charged.

Link to a 1/2 HP I use and have a few of these motors as back up just in case. Other HP motors on that site, make sure its 12Vdc not 90, unless you want to add those types of controls vs battery.

 

[LR1845]

I don't remember where but I thought I had read somewhere a guy using wheel chair motors for a mover...and seems to be a lot of them on Ebay and not real expensive.

 

[chevy_man]

Thanks for the reply. The question that I have is how did you reverse the motor direction? Manual switch or electronic control? Correct me if I'm wrong on this, because it is my understanding that the only way that you can reverse direction on single phase motors is to install a drum type of switch (Manually). Control thru magnetic contactors will not work............At least that has been my understanding.
What I'm looking to replicate is this system:


It appears that they no longer make these, but they run off a generator and have auto reversing.

Would love to see a pict. of you system.

Mine have freq drives. Because I had them, and I wanted remote inputs to change programs off a key fob.

Google is your friend. There's plenty of people that already have YouTube and write ups, and they're most likely going to do a better job than I at teaching.

 

[LR1845]

Mine have freq drives. Because I had them, and I wanted remote inputs to change programs off a key fob.

Google is your friend. There's plenty of people that already have YouTube and write ups, and they're most likely going to do a better job than I at teaching.

Can you post a YouTube video of this please?

 

[Long Range 338]

Thanks for the reply. The question that I have is how did you reverse the motor direction? Manual switch or electronic control? Correct me if I'm wrong on this, because it is my understanding that the only way that you can reverse direction on single phase motors is to install a drum type of switch (Manually). Control thru magnetic contactors will not work............At least that has been my understanding.
What I'm looking to replicate is this system:


It appears that they no longer make these, but they run off a generator and have auto reversing.

Would love to see a pict. of you system.

Why wouldn't magnetic contactors work? You're doing the same thing as the drum switch but with isolated contacts. I would imagine you would need to stop the target movement in one direction before switching directions to avoid overloading the motor.

 

[Sgtsideways]

Why wouldn't magnetic contactors work? You're doing the same thing as the drum switch but with isolated contacts. I would imagine you would need to stop the target movement in one direction before switching directions to avoid overloading the motor.

You can do that, but understand that you are using 120vac from a generator and not 240vac. Generators with 240v are large and expensive. You would have to install a capacitor in series with the start winding (imitates a second phase) of the motor. Others factors such as the constant forward and reversing, torque of the load (dolly, cable, steel target) adds a lot of stress to the motor, especially single phase. The dolly on tracks has to have enough weight to counter-act the impact of the bullet, yet light enough to prevent excessive torque on the motor. My guess is that the dolly, with target, would weigh about 60- 100 lbs. Also, the motor has to be slowed down significantly, in order to reach that 2-10mph speed of the dolly. Again, you are faced with the large heat problem in the windings when you slow a 1725rpm motor down to 100 rpm and less. My guess is that a gear head would have to be attached to the motor to reduce the speed at the drive pulley, else the internal cooling fan of the motor would slow down too much, allowing a large heat up of the windings.

It has been a suspicion of mine that motor and contactors, ect. for single phase would be very expensive compared to using a VFD in combo with a 3 phase motor and gearhead. The vfd approach allows a 120vac connection to a small generator. Programming is a bit of a bitch with the codes that are used, but they allow for speed reduction, limit switch function as well as acceleration/deceleration. Functions too numerous to name.

Bottom line, I am by no means an expert on this and I'm hoping someone with more knowledge can hop on board here. Motor, controls, gearhead alone..............What? $2-3K?

Mine have freq drives. Because I had them, and I wanted remote inputs to change programs off a key fob.

Google is your friend. There's plenty of people that already have YouTube and write ups, and they're most likely going to do a better job than I at teaching.

Thanks, confirms my thinking on the vfd. Not to be a pest, but I've researched utube, I haven't found anything that remotely comes close to the remote inputs that you speak of. Any directives as to where to go in the research?

 

[Long Range 338]

Have you considered a DC motor and set of heavy duty batteries?

 

[MTRecon]

I bought a moving target system from Action Targets years ago. It reverses and runs off a wearable battery pack, a 12 volt battery or the battery in a vehicle.

When I get home I'll see what the motor shows. It's not very big.

 

[chevy_man]

You can do that, but understand that you are using 120vac from a generator and not 240vac. Generators with 240v are large and expensive. You would have to install a capacitor in series with the start winding (imitates a second phase) of the motor. Others factors such as the constant forward and reversing, torque of the load (dolly, cable, steel target) adds a lot of stress to the motor, especially single phase. The dolly on tracks has to have enough weight to counter-act the impact of the bullet, yet light enough to prevent excessive torque on the motor. My guess is that the dolly, with target, would weigh about 60- 100 lbs. Also, the motor has to be slowed down significantly, in order to reach that 2-10mph speed of the dolly. Again, you are faced with the large heat problem in the windings when you slow a 1725rpm motor down to 100 rpm and less. My guess is that a gear head would have to be attached to the motor to reduce the speed at the drive pulley, else the internal cooling fan of the motor would slow down too much, allowing a large heat up of the windings.

It has been a suspicion of mine that motor and contactors, ect. for single phase would be very expensive compared to using a VFD in combo with a 3 phase motor and gearhead. The vfd approach allows a 120vac connection to a small generator. Programming is a bit of a bitch with the codes that are used, but they allow for speed reduction, limit switch function as well as acceleration/deceleration. Functions too numerous to name.

Bottom line, I am by no means an expert on this and I'm hoping someone with more knowledge can hop on board here. Motor, controls, gearhead alone..............What? $2-3K?

Thanks, confirms my thinking on the vfd. Not to be a pest, but I've researched utube, I haven't found anything that remotely comes close to the remote inputs that you speak of. Any directives as to where to go in the research?

240v generators aren't expensive. $1-5k depending on how large you end up needing. They are a heavy pain in the ass to be loading and unloading from a truck.

You can use a single phase motor wired to 120. Just Google "reversing a single phase motor with relays".

You can do some speed control with a vfd but you have to upsize everyone as low frequency generates a ton of heat. As far as remote inputs it's as simple as buying a 4 button key fob with corresponding 4 output relay off eBay. The hard part is learning ladder logic and programming the vfd to respond, and alter motor speed accordingly. That took a semester in school 15 years ago, so I'm not qualified to be teaching it since again you could Google it. Try "PLC & VFD programming course".


There's tons of gearbox, or chain and sprocket options available from any number of industrial suppliers.


You strike me as someone who sits in an office all day. You realize you'll likely need a welder and fab skills to make your own brackets and track? You're asking us if gearboxes exist rather than googling "industrial gearbox" that could answer your question in 3 seconds. Not inspiring confidence that you're not far better off buying a system rather than spending 5x more trying to build your own for the next few years.

 

[Sgtsideways]

Have you considered a DC motor and set of heavy duty batteries?

Thanks, and yes I have. What I don't like about that route is that the brushes have to be replaced (and yes I know, for the smart asses in the crowd, that there are brushless versions also) and the batteries have to be maintained. I want to have an outdoor system that is semi-portable and can withstand the rigors of weather for weeks/months at a time. Once it is set up, all I have to do is bring out the generator. Controls would automatically provide the f/rev operations and protection of the motor and vfd. At this point I'm committed to the 3ph motor and vfd route, but if others have a better mouse trap, I'm listening.
I started this topic to see if others have had success with a system like the one in the video. The only hurdle I have at this point is properly sizing the motor, and controller.

240v generators aren't expensive. $1-5k depending on how large you end up needing. They are a heavy pain in the ass to be loading and unloading from a truck.

You can use a single phase motor wired to 120. Just Google "reversing a single phase motor with relays".

You can do some speed control with a vfd but you have to upsize everyone as low frequency generates a ton of heat. As far as remote inputs it's as simple as buying a 4 button key fob with corresponding 4 output relay off eBay. The hard part is learning ladder logic and programming the vfd to respond, and alter motor speed accordingly. That took a semester in school 15 years ago, so I'm not qualified to be teaching it since again you could Google it. Try "PLC & VFD programming course".


There's tons of gearbox, or chain and sprocket options available from any number of industrial suppliers.


You strike me as someone who sits in an office all day. You realize you'll likely need a welder and fab skills to make your own brackets and track? You're asking us if gearboxes exist rather than googling "industrial gearbox" that could answer your question in 3 seconds. Not inspiring confidence that you're not far better off buying a system rather than spending 5x more trying to build your own for the next few years.

Well DAAAH!
Did you even read the first post? Like I don't know that welding is involved, a cable and pulley system, limit switches, ect. And where did I say gear boxes don't exist? Oh and good luck with the key fob thing at 400 to 500 yards.
Your idea with contactors for a single phase might work for awhile, but for continued operation (5-10 hrs/day) with for/rev operations......Smoke city.

Have you considered a DC motor and set of heavy duty batteries?

 

[chevy_man]

Thanks, and yes I have. What I don't like about that route is that the brushes have to be replaced (and yes I know, for the smart asses in the crowd, that there are brushless versions also) and the batteries have to be maintained. I want to have an outdoor system that is semi-portable and can withstand the rigors of weather for weeks/months at a time. Once it is set up, all I have to do is bring out the generator.

Well DAAAH!
Did you even read the first post? Like I don't know that welding is involved, a cable and pulley system, limit switches, ect. And where did I say gear boxes don't exist? Oh and good luck with the key fob thing at 400 to 500 yards.
Your idea with contactors for a single phase might work for awhile, but for continued operation (5-10 hrs/day) with for/rev operations......Smoke city.

So you've been reading!

Contactors are quite literally designed for switching motors on and off. When sized appropriately they last for years.

The key fob does only work to about 250 yards. If we shoot it farther away we have to select the program before we're all the way back to the bench. Oh darn.