It's been a while since I was on here last. Wanting to get an AR-15, and looking for some advice. I tried searching and to many results. What manufacture do you avoid? Thanks
Rifles to avoid?
- Thread starter jasonstewart
- Start date
1) Anything ever made, touched, breathed on or found in close proximity to other rifles from Hesse/Blackthorne/Black Thorne/Vulcan/whatever their "name o' the day" might happen to be.
2) Century Arms Int'l (CAI)
3) Olympic Arms has always been hit and miss. Some rifles are excellent right out of the box while others are a trainwreck. It has varied wildly throughout the years, but I always avoid them as there are FAR too many other fish in the sea to even cast a line toward Oly based on my past experiences with their crap.
Aside from those...you are probably "ok" to at least proceed to asking a specific question about certain makes/models once you narrow the field. As long as you stick to a known, high quality, reliable mfg like Colt, Armalite, RRA, DD,...hell, even DPMS just to name a few...you'll likely be ok for a "first AR" because it won't be long before you'll have more!! The @#$%ing things multiply like rabbits!!
2) Century Arms Int'l (CAI)
3) Olympic Arms has always been hit and miss. Some rifles are excellent right out of the box while others are a trainwreck. It has varied wildly throughout the years, but I always avoid them as there are FAR too many other fish in the sea to even cast a line toward Oly based on my past experiences with their crap.
Aside from those...you are probably "ok" to at least proceed to asking a specific question about certain makes/models once you narrow the field. As long as you stick to a known, high quality, reliable mfg like Colt, Armalite, RRA, DD,...hell, even DPMS just to name a few...you'll likely be ok for a "first AR" because it won't be long before you'll have more!! The @#$%ing things multiply like rabbits!!
Do you have an overall intended purpose for the rifle and what is your budget you are willing to spend?
Great article with a wealth of information which should help you out - The AR15 Buyer's Guide: Simple Steps for Buying a Great Rifle | The New Rifleman
Depending on how much you want to spend and what you are looking for the brands below (not in any particular order) are generally good to go. As the article I posted states every manufacturer has a hiccup every once in a while and produces a lemon the question is how well do they stand behind their product and correct it for the customer.
Bravo Company
Colt
Daniel Defense
Noveske
Knight Armament
Les Baer
Wilson Combat
LWRC
LMT
Stag Arms
Rock River Arms
Smith & Wesson
Great article with a wealth of information which should help you out - The AR15 Buyer's Guide: Simple Steps for Buying a Great Rifle | The New Rifleman
Depending on how much you want to spend and what you are looking for the brands below (not in any particular order) are generally good to go. As the article I posted states every manufacturer has a hiccup every once in a while and produces a lemon the question is how well do they stand behind their product and correct it for the customer.
Bravo Company
Colt
Daniel Defense
Noveske
Knight Armament
Les Baer
Wilson Combat
LWRC
LMT
Stag Arms
Rock River Arms
Smith & Wesson
I work part time at a gun store where I sell AR's. Most rifles I have sold over the last decade regardless of brand or cost appear to have satisfied their buyers. And, judging from the number of returns for warranty service or repair as a percent of product from brand sold, it also appears to me, that some of the least expensive brands like those from DPMS, and Windham Weaponry are as worthy right out of the box as the more expensive offerings, so much so that there may not be a corollary between price and quality.
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Go to a gun store and rack each action, you will feel a difference in how solid they are. That being said I agree with Stirlings comments above. My next AR will be a Colt, just because, and no other reason than their name.
Mostly want to target shoot and have fun. I don't want to treat it like a safe queen. Most likely it'll stay in my truck. But I'm wanting accuracy at a good price. But most of all, dependability. I appreciate your responses fellas.
With those requirements you really can't go wrong with anything that is currently on the market. I have personally tried to stay away from Oly, simply because I got a total POS from them years ago. I see them on the range pretty regularly, and those shooters don't seem to have any problems. DPMS, Bushmaster, etc all make pretty inexpensive entry guns that will do what you are looking for.
Better yet, you could buy a stripped lower from your local FFL, and purchase a gun "kit" (Delton or similar) to assemble while watching TV...this way you can get the rifle you want and learn a bit about the AR platform at the same time. This will save you a few buck too, unless you really get scalped on the lower.
I've owned or shot most of the brands out there and for what you want to do, I've found that the best "bang for your buck" will probably be something from Rock River Arms or Smith and Wesson. I've had very good rifles from both of these manufacturers.
Palmetto State Armory provides good value, but slow shipping. They've got an M4/EoTech package on sale today for $900.
And contrary to some on the interwebs, a rifle doesn't HAVE to conform to TDP in order to be quality, accurate and reliable...
And contrary to some on the interwebs, a rifle doesn't HAVE to conform to TDP in order to be quality, accurate and reliable...
I am not a fan of Olympic. Del-Ton (DTI) is a good manufacture for a DIY kit, i live fairly close to their factory and it is a first class place. I owned a DTI rifle for about a year and never had a hiccup. DTI, bushmaster, S&W all have good entry level stuff. Personal fav is Stag Arms and Rock River Arms. Ive shot some Grendel's and Noveske's and they are also nice rifles.
I wouldn't spend my own money on an Olympic unless it was really really cheap. My wife has one she took as payment, but I wouldn't depend my life on it.
Stop screwing around, buy a Knight's Armament SR-15, yeah, they are pricey. Buy once, cry once.
You won't appreciate the quality and extra engineering that went into the gun until you have a few thousand rounds down range.
I recall a conversation on another forum where Trey Knight (C. Reed Knight III) replied to a guy wondering about bbl life. Trey told him that if, when he reached 20K rounds he had found the accuracy to be deteriorating in his bbl, they (Knight's Armament) would give him a new bbl and bolt carrier assy for free.
You won't appreciate the quality and extra engineering that went into the gun until you have a few thousand rounds down range.
I recall a conversation on another forum where Trey Knight (C. Reed Knight III) replied to a guy wondering about bbl life. Trey told him that if, when he reached 20K rounds he had found the accuracy to be deteriorating in his bbl, they (Knight's Armament) would give him a new bbl and bolt carrier assy for free.
Knights Armament makes some good stuff...but it's probably overkill for the requirements that jasonstewart supplied. I'd have no problem carrying a SR15 in any location on earth...but on the range an RRA or PSA will probably do exactly the same thing if set up the same way. Besides, its not like he can't upgrade or trade up at some point in the future if he really decides to get into the platform.
I got out of the AR-15 platform a couple years ago. Great rifles just wanted something different in 5.56 other than what I use at work all day. If I went in again I would try and get a COLT LE 6920 or other COLT model for under $900 if you can which is a great value for what you are getting otherwise I'd go with a BCM. My $0.02
I totally agree with not wanting a Hesse or whatever they're called now. But the best barrel I've ever bought was an Olympic SUM. It even shot better than my CLE Krieger. As far as buying a complete Oly, aah no. Like said, hit or miss. There was a time when their stainless ultramatch broach cut barrels were very highly thought of though.
That they are (as to shipping) but, was able to build a bare bones, buying over a period of two months when stuff was on sale and on sale only. Including FFL for the lower and I am into it for $476 and change. Already looking to move up, but learned a ton building it and now know what to look for and knowing you all will provide *guidance*.
I don't have a problem purchasing something used. That's why I have leaned on y'all for advice. I have seen some of the LMT, Knights, and several other top notch rifles for sale. Most are pricey. And I've run across spikes, dpms, Olympic, Wyndham, and others than are more on the inexpensive side. I have no idea what an MRP is or an MWS. I would like to build one to fit my needs. That way I can't bitch about it if something ain't perfect. Would you recommend a stripped lower over an assembled lower? Money isn't the problem. I just want the best for the price. If I can spend 1000-1200 building one that will perform the same as a 2000+ gun then why not. Thanks for the in
Damn, now that seems like a very good deal there.
But to the OP I don't think you can really go wrong. I'm in the same boat, I've been looking at mostly M&P's, DD, BCM, and Colt. I've also thought about trying to put one together.
Build it yourself. They really are easy and then you have all the tools needed for maintenance. Also you learn everything there is to know about the weapon. It really was a great experience. I have built 3 now and with all mil-spec parts they function flawlessly.
For the money get a Colt and call it good. If you have a little more to spend, look at BCM and DD as well. KAC is great too but will cost as much as two Colts.
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I'm at the stage that I don't trust factory guns as a rule, from any manufacturer minus a very select few.
I went through the stages of limited knowledge, to a few years of knowledge, to decades, and I learn new things all the time.
It helps when building a gun because I know what to look for and expect to meet my demands, so the build option allows me to QC as I go along, starting from inspecting the components before they go together.
My last off-the-shelf AR15 was purchased from Rainier Arms in 1997 when I was stationed at Fort Lewis, when they were a small brick and mortar store.
It would really take something special for me to buy off-the-shelf again. I know that I'm going to put more into my personal project than any assembler across the Nation working in a shop somewhere. Nobody is going to even know about all the techniques and tweaks I do unless they are a custom builder.
Nobody is going to take the time to make the Cerakote job just right, match everything, coat the extension tube, receiver end plate, lock nut, ejection port door (PITA to de-grease), trouble-shoot all the components and assembly techniques, especially the gas tube flange to carrier key interface, gas block, blend and polish the feed ramps, lap the bolt to the extension, square the receiver face, select a quality LPK, blah blah.
If the barrel doesn't shoot how I want, I can pull it and get another. Why would I let some unknown person assemble all these components, when the majority of AR15 companies don't know about these things, and don't care to? There is literally zero incentive for me to buy off-the-shelf.
I don't have a problem with ordering from JP, GAP, and custom builders with a reputation that I have personally confirmed for myself by using their services. I love what I see coming from Seekins, Mega, LaRue, and a few others.
It's the same way with guitars for me. After owning so many different axes, the only thing that excites me is a custom-built instrument with neck-through body, my choice of pick-ups, pots, custom-designed bridge, and things that go above and beyond what anyone is really thinking about regarding guitars.
I went through the stages of limited knowledge, to a few years of knowledge, to decades, and I learn new things all the time.
It helps when building a gun because I know what to look for and expect to meet my demands, so the build option allows me to QC as I go along, starting from inspecting the components before they go together.
My last off-the-shelf AR15 was purchased from Rainier Arms in 1997 when I was stationed at Fort Lewis, when they were a small brick and mortar store.
It would really take something special for me to buy off-the-shelf again. I know that I'm going to put more into my personal project than any assembler across the Nation working in a shop somewhere. Nobody is going to even know about all the techniques and tweaks I do unless they are a custom builder.
Nobody is going to take the time to make the Cerakote job just right, match everything, coat the extension tube, receiver end plate, lock nut, ejection port door (PITA to de-grease), trouble-shoot all the components and assembly techniques, especially the gas tube flange to carrier key interface, gas block, blend and polish the feed ramps, lap the bolt to the extension, square the receiver face, select a quality LPK, blah blah.
If the barrel doesn't shoot how I want, I can pull it and get another. Why would I let some unknown person assemble all these components, when the majority of AR15 companies don't know about these things, and don't care to? There is literally zero incentive for me to buy off-the-shelf.
I don't have a problem with ordering from JP, GAP, and custom builders with a reputation that I have personally confirmed for myself by using their services. I love what I see coming from Seekins, Mega, LaRue, and a few others.
It's the same way with guitars for me. After owning so many different axes, the only thing that excites me is a custom-built instrument with neck-through body, my choice of pick-ups, pots, custom-designed bridge, and things that go above and beyond what anyone is really thinking about regarding guitars.
I can't believe no one took a swing at the low-hanging fruit and mentioned that you should NEVER even consider ANYTHING from TacticalRifles.net. EVER
Friends don't let friends get fucked by gun builders
LMT MWS! I know they are expensive but they are very accurate and the quick barrel change and high resell value is worth the price.
Had one and sold it. Great rifle but the $ that I got for it was hard to pass up.
OP, Palmetto State Armory. I would recommend building your first AR, you learn how it all goes together and how to troubleshoot if something goes tits up.
That being said, this morning, while reading this thread, ordered a lower and LPK for a ridiculously low price, only reason it went over a c-note was that they also had 168grn AMAX bullets in stock..
Anderson Lower Receiver - AR-15 Parts Sale - AR-15
Start there and pick up everything else you need piecemeal
Good Luck!
That being said, this morning, while reading this thread, ordered a lower and LPK for a ridiculously low price, only reason it went over a c-note was that they also had 168grn AMAX bullets in stock..
Anderson Lower Receiver - AR-15 Parts Sale - AR-15
Start there and pick up everything else you need piecemeal
Good Luck!
I have most of the AR's listed and for me the best bang for the buck is the Rock River Arms line. You can get a terrific rifle/carbine for $1000-$1200 like their ATH or Varmint model. My 2 RRA'S out shoot anything I own except my 2 Noveske's. See elfster1234 posts on his RRA'S.
If he was to build his AR, i would recommend purchasing a COMPLETE upper with bcg and charging handle that is already headspaced.
I don't understand how you could possibly screw up the headspace since it is set by the barrel maker. Unless the op is going to build the barrel assembly his self. The only thing you can do is check it or maybe by trial and error, finding a bolt that'll bring it within spec.
I'm wanting something more compact. 16-18" barrel. Adjustable buttstock. Not wanting a big gun. In a situation where shtf I do t want something to bulky.
One I would DEFINITELY avoid is Bushmaster. My PD bought 21 of them, and as the armorer I chose to give one of 'em a "once over" and found a gas ring to be not where it was supposed to be. That led to me checking each of the rest of the rifles. I found and corrected deficiencies on 17 of 21 rifles. Deficiencies ranged from receiver extensions (buffer tubes) that weren't screwed on far enough or staked properly to trigger groups that didn't pass a function check, amongst a whole bunch of other deficiencies.
Then no DPMS or Remington since they are all made in the same place.
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The only two makes that I have never had a hiccup with are LMT and FN. All else has been sent back or required latest revisions/mods to gain acceptable accuracy and reliability.
Ive shot more than one bushmaster and they have been decent rifles out of the box. I know in their earlier years they had a sketchy reputation, but from what i understand they have become much better.
Depends on what time period we're talking about.
1980's Bushmaster?
1990's Bushmaster?
2000's Bushmaster?
Freedom Group Purchase of Bushmaster
One thing that has usually been really good on Bushmaster AR15's is the barrels, especially for chrome-lined. They were 4150 CMV, and usually shoot pretty well.
One of the biggest problem areas was carrier key attachment being sub-par, and keys coming loose.
In the 1990's, the imitation fiberlite telestocks were pretty bad as well.
Most of the FSB's were canted, and that is how most mass-produced AR15's still are because manufacturers just don't care if you are able to zero your rear sight close to TDC or not.
Like I said, I don't trust guns from rack-grade manufacturers. I've learned not to over the years.
I would and have ordered from BCM though. No, I'm not one of those guys, but BCM does know what it's doing when it builds uppers and lowers.
I was in the same boat as the op two months ago, not a big AR fan but some of the matches I am going to this year require one. I went with a KAC SR 15. I only have a few hundred rounds through it but I have had zero issues. We had it out on a coyote hunt in -20° temperatures and it still functioned, good enough for my applications. Good luck in your search.
BCM is indeed good stuff. Right up there with noveske and RRA and Grendel and La-Rue.
Bushy's , Sigs and DPMS all can be found at Academy or Wal-Mart for anywheres in the$600 - $1000 range
Agreed!
I was referring to a ground up build. Slapping a complete upper on a lower that you drop a trigger group into isn't really building a rifle.
There was a time when you could save money assembling a rifle from parts but this isn't as true now. I put together my first AR this way to save money. I learned some things for sure but when you look at the cost vs. buying a complete rifle (equal components) I'd prefer to have a factory rifle. If you want to actually build a rifle to your exact specifications that's a different story but would entail putting together the upper as well.
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I haven't bought a low/mid tier off the shelf rifle in years. I don't know who is putting them together and where the parts came from. The last gun show I went to(two years ago)had all kinds of tables with ARs and parts, I would bet some of that stuff was China. I've had other countries contact me for distributing their AR parts also. Be careful as they are out there. Each year the AR style rifle grows in popularity, more cheap junk will come out.
Very few complete rifles I'd buy, some already mentioned such as GAP, JP and some other custom builders that I know will take their time and complete it right with quality parts.
I say build your own, if you need some help along, anyone here should be able to help. For receivers and handguards pick Mega or Vltor, Vltor makes a very nice M4 extension tube also. I've been shooting ARP barrels and bolts(.223W & 6.8)for a few years and love them, while not a Kreiger or Bartlein, they don't cost $500+ either. Use Daniel Defense, DPMS or Stag for small parts, get a decent trigger then add your choice of stock.
Very few complete rifles I'd buy, some already mentioned such as GAP, JP and some other custom builders that I know will take their time and complete it right with quality parts.
I say build your own, if you need some help along, anyone here should be able to help. For receivers and handguards pick Mega or Vltor, Vltor makes a very nice M4 extension tube also. I've been shooting ARP barrels and bolts(.223W & 6.8)for a few years and love them, while not a Kreiger or Bartlein, they don't cost $500+ either. Use Daniel Defense, DPMS or Stag for small parts, get a decent trigger then add your choice of stock.
