rimfire Tuner / Harrell
- Thread starter Btrain
- Start date
You don’t have to machine your barrel with a Harrell tuner. When you order one from him you’ll give him your barrel dimensions and he’ll make it for that size.
Just ordered one of these. It may take awhile for me to let you know how it performs. I didn't actually see any lead times on the website and the process for the tuning seems tedious. Hopefully it works.
Anyone know what kind of turn-around time I'm looking at?
Anyone know what kind of turn-around time I'm looking at?
Take a look at the kinetic security solutions. I pre-ordered one of the 1/2" thread ones and have my 5/8th should get here later this week. I'm not sure when I'll get to take it out and test it though. But the thing about this version is no extra machining is required. If it is threaded for a brake or suppressor that's all you need.
The tuner arrived today. I'm pretty excited. I ordered this Tuesday evening and was pleasantly surprised when I opened the mailbox today. The weather looks good tomorrow and I have time to go to the range. I didn't see any instructions on the amount of torque for installation, I just went with 10 in. lbs.
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I have tried a tuner on my H&R M12, and had variable success with it, although, it was my first experience with a tuner. Now, with that experience, and having read a bunch of articles and opinions on the use of tuners, the answer is "it depends". If you follow the Purdy method, to use a tuner, then you need to make sure you have a long enough barrel to set the harmonics at a node. If not, then you will need a test method to determine if the tuner can improve your group sizes. Something like testing every 25 clicks from 0 to 500, and shooting groups of 3 replicates by 5 shots each. Once done, then review your group sizes. Find the best group size of the bunch, and the setting you used to produce that group size. Next, set the tuner for that setting, and then repeat the testing using settings of 5 clicks from the setpoint, up and down. Same thing, shoot 3x5, and when done review your group sizes. From there, you should be close to the best setting for the ammo lot you are shooting. If you change ammo brands, you will likely need to repeat the full testing, to determine the best setting for the new ammo brand. So, now, you have shot groups of 25 clicks, then groups of 5 clicks, and found the best one. Use that at the range, and adjust the tuner, if needed during warm-up to set it for the day. That should get you the best chance to improve your group sizes. There are variations on this testing model, but the key thing is to test the ammo you plan to shoot, making adjustments to the tuner, and then narrowing down the best groups until you are satisfied.
I hope this helps. I have a Anschutz 1903, 21 inch barrel, and at the end of my testing, found the tuner would not reliably give me a tighter group size, so I sold mine.
Good luck!
I hope this helps. I have a Anschutz 1903, 21 inch barrel, and at the end of my testing, found the tuner would not reliably give me a tighter group size, so I sold mine.
Good luck!
That looks really close to the method I plan on using. It's called the Hopewell Method.
Preliminary Tuning:
Don't worry about cross wind effects at this point as you are trying to tune the rifle to shoot with the least vertical stringing. It is best to do the testing in calm wind and definitely not in a head or tail wind.
Use the ammunition you plan on using in a match (measured and sorted). You cannot tune the rifle with one type of ammo (hi-velocity hunting) and expect good performance with another type (match grade target).
1. Set your tuner to "0" and fire two shots.
Turn tuner one complete revolution (25 clicks) and fire two shots at the same Point of Aim. Continue this until you reach "100". You now have a 10 shot group, all shot at the same POA.
2. Repeat step one from "100" to "200"
3. Repeat Step one from "200" to "300".
4. Repeat Step one from "300" to "400"
5. Repeat Step one from "400" to "500".
You now have five 10-shot groups.
If you notice the groups opening up vertically, finish the step you're on and move on to Intermediate Tuning.
One of the 10-shot groups will show the smallest vertical stringing.
You should have used only 50 rounds so far (or less).
Example: The "200" to "300" group shows the least vertical stringing.
Intermediate Tuning
6. Starting at "200", shoot 2 five-shot groups.
Shift to a different POA for each group.
7. Repeat at "225", "250", "275" and "300"
One of these settings will show the best average vertical group size.
You have used 100 (or less) rounds so far.
Example: Setting "250" showed the smallest average vertical group size.
Intermediate Tuning Part 2
8. Now, start at "240" and shoot a five shot group at "240", "245", "250", "255", "260".
One of these groups will show the least vertical stringing.
You have used 125 rounds (or less) so far.
Example: The "260" group shows the smallest vertical group.
In this example, shoot a 5 shot group at "265" to confirm that "260" is indeed the smallest vertically. OK - so you've confirmed that it is - go on to the next step.
Fine Tuning
9. Now, start at "257" and shoot a five shot group at "257", "259", "261" and "263"
One of these groups will show the least vertical stringing and is the "sweet" spot of your rifle barrel.
You have used a maximum of 145 rounds, (shorter versions are available on line).
If you have any doubts, start over at Step #6, and redo the testing.
Preliminary Tuning:
Don't worry about cross wind effects at this point as you are trying to tune the rifle to shoot with the least vertical stringing. It is best to do the testing in calm wind and definitely not in a head or tail wind.
Use the ammunition you plan on using in a match (measured and sorted). You cannot tune the rifle with one type of ammo (hi-velocity hunting) and expect good performance with another type (match grade target).
1. Set your tuner to "0" and fire two shots.
Turn tuner one complete revolution (25 clicks) and fire two shots at the same Point of Aim. Continue this until you reach "100". You now have a 10 shot group, all shot at the same POA.
2. Repeat step one from "100" to "200"
3. Repeat Step one from "200" to "300".
4. Repeat Step one from "300" to "400"
5. Repeat Step one from "400" to "500".
You now have five 10-shot groups.
If you notice the groups opening up vertically, finish the step you're on and move on to Intermediate Tuning.
One of the 10-shot groups will show the smallest vertical stringing.
You should have used only 50 rounds so far (or less).
Example: The "200" to "300" group shows the least vertical stringing.
Intermediate Tuning
6. Starting at "200", shoot 2 five-shot groups.
Shift to a different POA for each group.
7. Repeat at "225", "250", "275" and "300"
One of these settings will show the best average vertical group size.
You have used 100 (or less) rounds so far.
Example: Setting "250" showed the smallest average vertical group size.
Intermediate Tuning Part 2
8. Now, start at "240" and shoot a five shot group at "240", "245", "250", "255", "260".
One of these groups will show the least vertical stringing.
You have used 125 rounds (or less) so far.
Example: The "260" group shows the smallest vertical group.
In this example, shoot a 5 shot group at "265" to confirm that "260" is indeed the smallest vertically. OK - so you've confirmed that it is - go on to the next step.
Fine Tuning
9. Now, start at "257" and shoot a five shot group at "257", "259", "261" and "263"
One of these groups will show the least vertical stringing and is the "sweet" spot of your rifle barrel.
You have used a maximum of 145 rounds, (shorter versions are available on line).
If you have any doubts, start over at Step #6, and redo the testing.
I used a Harrell tuner on my CZ 457 Varmint up until I got my Lilja barrel.
These targets below are what it would shoot on average without a tuner(factory 20”)
The next set of targets was with the tuner and having the proper setting on it or at least real close to it.
These targets below are what it would shoot on average without a tuner(factory 20”)
The next set of targets was with the tuner and having the proper setting on it or at least real close to it.
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This one would of been a really good one with the tuner but for some reason had a flyer. Could of been a difference in powder charge or a deformity on the bullet that I didn’t notice
I used the same methodology with my H&R model 12. One component not discussed is the velocity of ammo (@RAVAGE88 has discussed this with his fast twist barrel sorcery) While I have no scientific data to back it up, barrel length, bullet dwell time, and the node created by those variables is what the tuner can affect. Solving this riddle can be approached in a couple ways. One can try ammo from different lots and with different velocities, then select the most consistent/accurate for testing using the method listed above. Or, if you have lots of time and money, just use the above method for various brands, lots and velocities. The second method will yield a lot of good data about your rifle. With my M12, the results have been amazing. With my current tuner setting, Eley Match velocities between 1060-1065 will give very consistent results at 100-200 yards. 1/2" 100 yard groups with regularity. 6x5's in the .6's.
If I've learned anything from pre to post tuner rifles, it's that getting a factory rifle to shoot consistent .75" group 100 yard averages isn't horribly hard. Most smallbore competition rifles will get there with the right ammo. Getting into the .5-.6" 100 average is another game all together and all variations need to be considered to achieve this level of accuracy. As I continue to refine my .22 shooting, I will no doubt be installing a tuner on another rifle that shows great potential.
Enjoy the search!
Nope, I'm pretty sure the tuner on my H&R M12 results in a reduction of .1-.2" at 100 yards. To your RimX comment, I have a Vudoo, an Anschutz 1827 and 2007/2013, Winchester 52's, Sako and more. As I stated, they'll all shoot sub inch at 100. But if you're trying to wring every bit of accuracy out of a .22, you have to work all the variables. Even a RimX will vary greatly from ammo brand, lot, and velocity. In my experience the tuner has enabled me to better define what makes my rifle shoot exceptionally well. For "plinking" My Vudoo with Geco rifle or Sk Biathlon will easily put a smile on my face for .04-.13 cents a shot. That last .1-.2" improvement in accuracy is certainly within the law of diminishing returns, but it's certainly entertaining.
Sir, you just confirmed my first statement. You use a barrel tuner to make a not so good shooting rifle shoot better.
As for my second statement, I’m suggesting to start with purchasing a rifle that doesn’t need a barrel tuner because it shoots in the .1 & .2
But after I thought about it some more, I understand that there are always shooters who like to „tinker“ more with their rifles than really go just to the the Range with a perfectly shooting one. It‘s just not me anymore, we are living in a time now where everyone is able to buy the parts, spend half an hour to assemble go to the range and shoot better then ever.
Yes I’ve played with CZ and Ruger products too in the past, these days are over.
To everyone his own, my apology‘s
Even rifles that shoot really well, seem to improve when using a tuner. The groups tend to get more "round" in shape and flyers seem to be reigned in a bit. I spent several thousand rounds with my RimX without a tuner, establishing a .26" @ 50yd baseline of performance. I'm going to get the tuner dialed in, and then see how it behaves over a few thousand rounds. Should be interesting and fun. 
Orkan, this sounds interesting to me too. Something else to learn, I just always thought if the rifle is perfect we are just limited by the ammo. If I have to tune every brand/lot of 22lr ammo to a rifle doesn’t make much sense to me. With the exception of course for br applications, but I’m not into that.
I'm back from the range and it was an interesting day to say the least. The morning started off pretty calm, as the day progressed, so did the wind. I dont know if it was this site or another, but someone mention you will see it starting to work. I followed the Hopewell method the best I could, and I verified a group if I felt like I pulled a shot. I did see it start to work. The first picture was the preliminary tuning, the second pic was the fine tuning. I wont bore you with all the pictures in between. I feel like I should go back and possibly shoot the fine tuning part again. It was getting gusty by the time I did the fine tuning. I finish off the day with a IBS target and did so so... 250 but only 8 X's. One thing for sure, the last 25 I shot were left and right, not much vertical at all. These were all shot with a MPR 64 sitting in a benchrest stock, mechanical front rest and a rear bag. The RWS R-50 lot I used was a decent lot, but not the best I have ever shot.
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If you think about it as it compares to centerfire, it will help you make sense of it.
It isn't in dispute that when we handload for precision centerfire, we must do proper load development with our specific rifle and the specific batch of components we're dealing with. We essentially tune the harmonics relationship to bullet release through load dev, changing the timing by moving bullet seating depth and charge weight and tons of other factors. Here with rimfire, we can't control the ammo and thus can not manipulate the ammo to produce the timing we are looking for. We can lot test, which will reveal positive trends in both which our rifle likes best as well as which ammo lots are most consistent on their own. So, since we can't time the bullet release ourselves, we must manipulate the rifle to produce the harmonic best suited to a specific resonance. Change lot numbers of ammo, and you change the resonance, and you'll need a new tuner setting.
Suffice it to say there are many different schools of thought, and because this is the internet... none are in agreement. Some say a rifle will never need tuned again once tuned. I disagree, as I can find new acceptable nodes with different lots of ammo.
Even in higher disciplines in centerfire, tuners are used to further reign in nodes even after load dev has been completed. Quite complex and fun discussion.
I think bench rest guns are primarily what they are used on. I couldn't see putting one on a hunting rifle, or even a PRS/NRL22 style rifle.
Even rifles that shoot really well, seem to improve when using a tuner. The groups tend to get more "round" in shape and flyers seem to be reigned in a bit. I spent several thousand rounds with my RimX without a tuner, establishing a .26" @ 50yd baseline of performance. I'm going to get the tuner dialed in, and then see how it behaves over a few thousand rounds. Should be interesting and fun.
Orkan nails it. My M12 is a great shooting rifle that is better because of the tuner. If you want proof, go look at the 6x5 thread. .57" average for 6 - 5 shot groups at 100 yards and best 100 yard group .31". Because of the tuner, I know my rifle will shoot Eley match in the 1060-1065 published velocity range in the .60" at 100 yards with regularity. Much easier for me to know where to start when I run out of a preferred lot. Once you're dialed in for a lot/velocity, you can select something similar when you run out. Within 50 rounds of a new lot (similar velocity) you'll know one way or the other if it'll shoot. That's why ordering ammo from Killough's shooting sports is a good deal. You can select Eley by lot. Also, I think you can do the same for Lapua from Good Time Shooting. To me, it's worth the effort for my best rifles. YMMV.
Enjoy,
Tom
Tuners are a big part of BR. I see them more there then anywhere else. As far as a hunting rifle or a tactical style rifle, I would think it would be awkward and make the gun handle very nose heavy. But hey, I could be wrong, It has happened before.
I see no reason to leave accuracy or precision on the table just because I'm shooting from a bipod and rear bag. Though I do agree that most shooters will struggle to see an improvement that would justify it, but that's not so much the fault of the rifle as the shooter behind it.
I'm not going to advocate everyone run out and get tuners... but it's cool to see Erik Cortina's tuner design making provisions for field rifles. Precision and accuracy is still the goal, and I'll not turn my nose up at anything that helps that pursuit.
I'm not going to advocate everyone run out and get tuners... but it's cool to see Erik Cortina's tuner design making provisions for field rifles. Precision and accuracy is still the goal, and I'll not turn my nose up at anything that helps that pursuit.
Dead wrong Haul your ass to a benchrest rimfire match. Find one rifle in the unlimited classes without a tuner, and win a Cupid doll
I know absolutely nothing about BR and do not really care about it.
Yes, I was most likely wrong. I learned this after reading into Orkan‘s professional replies.
Your reply gives me absolutely nothing and I would prefer you leave this profanity out of here...
Tuning a gun sucks, and I have a sever disdain for the Harrells tuner. If I’m tuning a rim fire and buying a tuner for myself it’s the BeeSting
Deadly, the bee sting is interesting, especially if using open sights. The bloop tube for increased sight radius has been around, as have various screw in bloop tube arrangements from James Pappas fro the Harrels. Don Blue currently makes a similar setup using carbon fiber tubes, which is catching on in various 22 benchrest markets. joe Chacon makes a Purdy Rx tuner. Mike Ezell makes a particle damped tuner with Purdy Rx if desired. The old Fudd tuner Was sweet, though long out of production. It’s a tuner-rich environment. Best of luck on your choice. Seymour
I'm guessing you guys are using tuners on 26-28" barrels. What about using one on a shorter, 18-22" barrel? With a heavy contour, I'm guessing this shorter barrel is going to be super stiff compared to one of the longer length barrels, and a tuner would have less effect. Just inquiring and trying to learn.
45, Generally true. 22” heavy contour is the lower end of the easily tuned range of it, and may need some extra weight. Seymour
Vudoo's new BR single shot is going to have optional tuner installed as stated in his thread. Tuners are gaining in popularity outside the BR circles where they once only resided. Guys like Orkan posting results with a tuner installed on barrel are only going to drive more shooters to get curious and experiment with them. Don't be surprised if in 2 yrs they are common place on mid grade and up rimfire builds. I'm never considered it really until speaking with him about my build, now I'm wondering if I should try on some my CF rifles and see what happens.
Would defiantly recommend trying a tuner, I installed one about 4 years ago, bottom rifle.
Made the groups smaller and ‘rounder’ (if that makes sense?) on my MPR, which has a 24” barrel of med weight. Used Purdey method for initial setup.
Also help balance rifle closer towards the CF cousins.
NB this was put together. before 22rf clone actions were available so had the kluge the MPR into the CF stock Using a barrel clamp.
Made the groups smaller and ‘rounder’ (if that makes sense?) on my MPR, which has a 24” barrel of med weight. Used Purdey method for initial setup.
Also help balance rifle closer towards the CF cousins.
NB this was put together. before 22rf clone actions were available so had the kluge the MPR into the CF stock Using a barrel clamp.
A can is awkward by comparisonTuners are a big part of BR. I see them more there then anywhere else. As far as a hunting rifle or a tactical style rifle, I would think it would be awkward and make the gun handle very nose heavy. But hey, I could be wrong, It has happened before.
I am starting to re-think my statements about the tuners on guns other than BR. It didn't make sense at first, but I am starting to think I was wrong.
That kind of self reflection is rare. Rare enough that you'd swear it's against forum policy. So I congratulate you on that. It's ok to be wrong. It's even better to try not to make statements without having a ton of experience with both sides of a discussion. I sincerely appreciate your post, and the mindset behind it that was required before you clicked submit.I am starting to re-think my statements about the tuners on guns other than BR. It didn't make sense at first, but I am starting to think I was wrong.
Thank you @orkan
" It's even better to try not to make statements without having a ton of experience with both sides of a discussion." I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, this isn't the first time I have done this, and regrettably probably not the last. Fortunately, this worked out in my favor. If I didn't make such a silly statement on this forum, you and others may not have opened my eyes to a different mindset. So I thank you.
Hi everyone,
I had to pick this thread as my first post since I have been studying, testing, building, and learning about Tuners, or Muzzle Devices as I like to call them for the last 5 years. To get it out of the way I am a Master Plumber, machinist, and an aspiring gun smith. I am very much into small bore rifles, and shoot F-class and bench rest comps when they are having them locally here in PA..
Also I should say I am a student of the Calfee school of RFBR. I never know how that will go over on a new site as he can be taken many ways, but he is the inventor of the modern rimfire barrel tuner. Actually if you get the chance check out his book and site as it is full of great info, and I am in no way affiliated, I just agree with his style of getting these guns shooting where we want them to. That aside, here is some info for those new to the world of tuners. Hopefully it can save you guys some time and ammo cost.
There are 2 worlds of tuning...1- is the Calfee method of finding the barrels harmonic node by ringing the barrel and then adding weight (tuner) out in front of the muzzle to trick the barrel into thinking the muzzle is now the node...which I guess it is! The weight and placement of the tuner are used in conjunction to get this done. Once the muzzle is stopped you are done. You don't need to touch the tuner any more for conditions, or ammo, or humidity, wind etc.
2. is the PRX method which calculates the overall (adjusted) length needed by using the length of the barrel and the tuner ID. Weight of the tuner isn't so critical as the EXACT length needed to hit the harmonic closest to your setup. Usually the 9th or 7th for RFBR rifles.
I use both of these systems, and they both come up with similar solutions, and work with ANY style tuner or even one you make at home....which can work just fine once you know whats needed. Here's some info I wish I had way back when I started small bore...and needed a tuner.
> Per Calfee, once the barrel is "stopped", or tuned, you don't need to touch the tuner anymore unless you change hardware.
> ALL barrels will perform better with a tuner, ALL barrels and calibers. You can't find a top flight competition winning rimfire rifle without one.
> For slip fit clamp on tuners, treat the clamping pressure like you would the action screws. tightness matters!
> Mid barrels tuners and rubber grommets etc, aren't needed when you hit your tuner settings properly. They are tricking the rifle into thinking the barrel is shorter/stiffer, and in turn moving the node closer to the muzzle. Which is the tuners job.
That's about it for now. I look forward to meeting everyone,
Gerry
I had to pick this thread as my first post since I have been studying, testing, building, and learning about Tuners, or Muzzle Devices as I like to call them for the last 5 years. To get it out of the way I am a Master Plumber, machinist, and an aspiring gun smith. I am very much into small bore rifles, and shoot F-class and bench rest comps when they are having them locally here in PA..
Also I should say I am a student of the Calfee school of RFBR. I never know how that will go over on a new site as he can be taken many ways, but he is the inventor of the modern rimfire barrel tuner. Actually if you get the chance check out his book and site as it is full of great info, and I am in no way affiliated, I just agree with his style of getting these guns shooting where we want them to. That aside, here is some info for those new to the world of tuners. Hopefully it can save you guys some time and ammo cost.
There are 2 worlds of tuning...1- is the Calfee method of finding the barrels harmonic node by ringing the barrel and then adding weight (tuner) out in front of the muzzle to trick the barrel into thinking the muzzle is now the node...which I guess it is! The weight and placement of the tuner are used in conjunction to get this done. Once the muzzle is stopped you are done. You don't need to touch the tuner any more for conditions, or ammo, or humidity, wind etc.
2. is the PRX method which calculates the overall (adjusted) length needed by using the length of the barrel and the tuner ID. Weight of the tuner isn't so critical as the EXACT length needed to hit the harmonic closest to your setup. Usually the 9th or 7th for RFBR rifles.
I use both of these systems, and they both come up with similar solutions, and work with ANY style tuner or even one you make at home....which can work just fine once you know whats needed. Here's some info I wish I had way back when I started small bore...and needed a tuner.
> Per Calfee, once the barrel is "stopped", or tuned, you don't need to touch the tuner anymore unless you change hardware.
> ALL barrels will perform better with a tuner, ALL barrels and calibers. You can't find a top flight competition winning rimfire rifle without one.
> For slip fit clamp on tuners, treat the clamping pressure like you would the action screws. tightness matters!
> Mid barrels tuners and rubber grommets etc, aren't needed when you hit your tuner settings properly. They are tricking the rifle into thinking the barrel is shorter/stiffer, and in turn moving the node closer to the muzzle. Which is the tuners job.
That's about it for now. I look forward to meeting everyone,
Gerry
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Pretty fair synopsis. Don’t think anybody but Calfee still believes the muzzle is stopped.
Kinetic Security Solutions LLC
Dedicated to providing quality products to the shooting community.
www.kineticsecuritysolutions.com
Your absolutely right, and I should have worded it differently. Maybe "controlled" or "adjusted" something along those lines instead of stopped. I should have remembered the wars that term kicked off in other forums!
G.
Kinetic Security Solutions LLC
Dedicated to providing quality products to the shooting community.www.kineticsecuritysolutions.com
Thank you. I just preordered one.
Love the tuner on my Joe Chacon custom 10/22 clone.
it comes close to the accuracy of the better bolt guns and equals them at times.
I’m definitely gonna send Joe an action in the future and have him build me a nice bolt gun with one of his barrels and tuners.
it comes close to the accuracy of the better bolt guns and equals them at times.
I’m definitely gonna send Joe an action in the future and have him build me a nice bolt gun with one of his barrels and tuners.
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Gerry, I know of what you speak. Lol. These days the numbers of 2500’s in ARA has gone exponential. Ivan Wells, Bad Bob Cleveland, Don Blue, and many others are leading the charge. Good ammo is part of it. Weight on a stick, and Purdy methods seem to be merging. Positive compensation is mainstream. The carryover into tactical trainers with short stiff barrels is limited as no positive compensation to work with, yet the Purdy side has not been explored. I have had improvement with it on .920” straight tubes down to 18” if free-floated, yet not if the bbl is fully bedded in proprietary damping material. A conundrum. Have repeatedly posted that tuner settings at 50 and 100 yds differ typically a couple clicks in a positive-compensation set up, whether a 21” custom 10-22 or a full-on BR 26” Suhl. 100-200 yd tuner settings are the same In thone setups. Cal fees notion that the best tune is one that will put a velocity spread into the same POI at a given distance can be proven true. The long range side of this remains a mystery to me, having no access, beyond the obvious need for extremely tight ES in a non-positive-compensating system. Meanwhile, a lot of what we took as gospel, such as carefully lapped tapers in bores, at least in the realm of accurate trainers, faces the paradigm shift of cut-rifled bbls with no taper. Great time to be in Rimfire. Seymour
Sagittarius, Joe is the man, and one hell of a great guy. Has a buddy working with him of considerable rimfire silhouette reputation. My Suhl will be going there. Seymour
