Not familiar with Suhl, Seymour.
Hope to see a picture of it when you get it back from Joe!
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rimfire Tuner / Harrell
- Thread starter Btrain
- Start date
Not familiar with Suhl, Seymour.
Hope to see a picture of it when you get it back from Joe!
Boy you really said it there Seymore! Your post just got me re-reading a short paragraph from Calfee saying only straight tapers get the full effect of the tuner, and it looks like barrels will be trending thinner down to about .750" as they REALLY react to the tuner adjustments. The days of the beefy .950" tubes may be gone? It was also noted that barrels really only got fatter so you could adjust the I.D of the tuner during the build and not have to purchase another? Maybe that and actions using the .750" tenon/thread are perfect for about an .820" tube blank. I just finished a build today on a Factory Class Savage with a .795" barrel at 21" and the tuner I made for it is 7.8oz. I only had to move the tuner .010" to see appreciable changes in vertical!
Maybe you need to build a 1/2 O.D. tuner like a taco for the full bed rifle!
Maybe the harmonics are only traveling along the top of the barrel? That's only partially in jest. You never know with these frustratingly awesome rifles. And yes!, the long distance crowd I believe will push rimfire to new places RFBR just couldn't. SO many guys are asking me about training rifles to match their 1000+ yard PRS/PSL etc. rigs. Well, I have to get to work, our power has been out for 2 days from the storms and I am behind. That's also why I couldn't respond to your post quicker. Have fun!, G.
I'm pretty sure that would defeat the purpose of the tuner by adding additional weight on the end of the barrel.
Actually. . . no. Adding any weight to the end of the barrel changes the harmonics (including breaks), just like a tuner does. A tuner can still change the harmonics, whatever the barrel configuration. And the one referred to in the previous post is one that can work well if one is going to have a can mounted.
that’s awesome 
Have you compared the "Harrell Tuner Brake," which appears to be shown in the AR-15 variation on the rifle above, with the "Harrell's Rimfire Tuner," shown below, which is often used by .22LR BR shooters?
This tuner works quite well.Have you compared the "Harrell Tuner Brake," which appears to be shown in the AR-15 variation on the rifle above, with the "Harrell's Rimfire Tuner," shown below, which is often used by .22LR BR shooters?
I went with the AR tuner brake because my barrel is threaded. These are slip on style tuners (I believe).Have you compared the "Harrell Tuner Brake," which appears to be shown in the AR-15 variation on the rifle above, with the "Harrell's Rimfire Tuner," shown below, which is often used by .22LR BR shooters?
In another current thread which moved recently in the direction of tuners, I posted something similar to what follows.
Since .22LR ammo must remain as it comes from the factory -- that is, it can't be changed in any way -- the object of tuning a rimfire rifle must be to tune the barrel to the ammo. (In centerfire it's the ammo that gets tuned by changing aspects of the rounds during reloading.) Tuning a .22LR barrel is done with a tuner.
The "positive compensation" theory of tuning .22LR explains how tuners work. In short, they modify barrel harmonics to put faster and slower rounds in the same POI at a given distance.
If "positive compensation" works as explained by Geoff Kolbe here Using barrel vibrations to tune a barrel (geoffrey-kolbe.com), a correctly tuned barrel will be able to place faster and slower rounds in the same POI at a given distance. At the same time, it suggests that the particular tuner setting that accomplishes that goal at that distance will be unable to do the same at a very different distance without changes. In other words, according to this explanation, a tuner setting for one distance doesn't work at others.
Nevertheless, while some shooters say that tuner adjustments have to be made between lots and different atmospheric conditions, there are shooters who report never having to change their tuner settings when switching between lots, weather conditions, or between distances such as from 50 yards to 100. In fact they say once they find the "sweet spot" they don't have to adjust the tuner again.
Do tuners work at various distances without adjustment for each of them? I'm not qualified to say.
However a tuner does its job of tuning the barrel -- and it does as BR shooters will confirm -- shooters shouldn't view it as a panacea, as a solution to improve a mediocre rifle or mediocre ammo. It won't turn bad ammo into good; it won't turn the inconsistent into something consistent. It has the potential to improve ammo that's known to shoot well in a rifle that already shoots well with a naked barrel.
That rifle must be without bedding issues. It must be used on a stable surface for consistent tuner performance, and the tuner must be adjusted in very good shooting conditions and be retested again to confirm the setting. A tuner is not a shortcut to improved results.
Since .22LR ammo must remain as it comes from the factory -- that is, it can't be changed in any way -- the object of tuning a rimfire rifle must be to tune the barrel to the ammo. (In centerfire it's the ammo that gets tuned by changing aspects of the rounds during reloading.) Tuning a .22LR barrel is done with a tuner.
The "positive compensation" theory of tuning .22LR explains how tuners work. In short, they modify barrel harmonics to put faster and slower rounds in the same POI at a given distance.
If "positive compensation" works as explained by Geoff Kolbe here Using barrel vibrations to tune a barrel (geoffrey-kolbe.com), a correctly tuned barrel will be able to place faster and slower rounds in the same POI at a given distance. At the same time, it suggests that the particular tuner setting that accomplishes that goal at that distance will be unable to do the same at a very different distance without changes. In other words, according to this explanation, a tuner setting for one distance doesn't work at others.
Nevertheless, while some shooters say that tuner adjustments have to be made between lots and different atmospheric conditions, there are shooters who report never having to change their tuner settings when switching between lots, weather conditions, or between distances such as from 50 yards to 100. In fact they say once they find the "sweet spot" they don't have to adjust the tuner again.
Do tuners work at various distances without adjustment for each of them? I'm not qualified to say.
However a tuner does its job of tuning the barrel -- and it does as BR shooters will confirm -- shooters shouldn't view it as a panacea, as a solution to improve a mediocre rifle or mediocre ammo. It won't turn bad ammo into good; it won't turn the inconsistent into something consistent. It has the potential to improve ammo that's known to shoot well in a rifle that already shoots well with a naked barrel.
That rifle must be without bedding issues. It must be used on a stable surface for consistent tuner performance, and the tuner must be adjusted in very good shooting conditions and be retested again to confirm the setting. A tuner is not a shortcut to improved results.
I know what has been working for me with my centrefires. I will do some testing when i finish my tuner for Rimfire to see if same outcome.
Hi B, i was skeptical for a year or 2 but tuners do work for me, they work on a .90 barreled 2500x to a skinny barrel that anchutz calls heavy. However , they aint magic, you have to do it right. I need near perfect conditions to tune mine. I have to shoot like i was in a national match( which ill probably never do) and wait till the wind flags are hanging! I cant worry about how much ammo im using or how much time its taking.
I still love my Harrell's Precision Tuner Brake!! My best 5 shot group at 50 yards. 0.090" calipers were zeroed at 0.22"
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If you zeroed the calipers to 0.22" the results would have been even more extraordinary.
Grauhanen, There is a difference in tune between 50 and 100 yds using a tuner as a movable weight, excluding any Purdy prescription discussion, of about 2 clicks on a Harrell, on barrels of 22-26" and "medium tapers". 100 yd tune generally good at 200. easy to shape groups as desired within your acceptible parameters of precision, for example to decrease wind sensitivity at the expense of adding a bit of vertical. you may find trajectories of same brand/bullet shape, 40 fps apart in MV, to converge at your desired distance out to 100 or so. enough outlandish claims and heresy for now seymour
The tuner I bought from Joe. He set the tuner and when i installed it on my Vudoo SS it was perfect! I've not changed it since. I've also had Joe fit my new Muller barrel to my Vudoo repeater with a tuner.
Mission, Joe has that Purdy Rx down cold ! It flat works. Class Act too ! Seymour
Joe Chacon. Started Autobenchrestassociation.com. Builder of the most accurate 10-22 bench guns bar none, and competes with them in ARA with success.
I've been following this thread and just received my Harrell's tuner today. I plan using the Hopewell format for testing. This is on a B14 R Steel barrel 18" long. I'll do the test with Center X. I'd do it all shooting prone.
I thought I'd do the tests at 80 yards and hopefully see any significant differences better than I would at 50. Does this sound correct?
Any advice/suggestions would be welcome.
TIA
I thought I'd do the tests at 80 yards and hopefully see any significant differences better than I would at 50. Does this sound correct?
Any advice/suggestions would be welcome.
TIA
I just went through tuning my B14 with Center X. Yes to the longer distance. I planned on doing mine at the 77 yd. distances, but couldn't find the one set of target holes in the ground at that distance. So did 50 yds. Groups were too tight so I moved it back to the 100 yd. holes. Wind was light that day and it was easy to distinguish the differences. The 77 yd. or in your case the 80 yd spot would be ideal in my opinion.
Do it indoors off a bench , preferably with a one piece rest, otherwise two piece or decent bags. Shooting outdoors with wind and prone introduces too many variables. You are denver based ?yes? 5280 armory (and some other local ranges) has a two lane indoor range with 50 yards in Denver metro area. I was able to tune my anschutz 1710 benchrest gun at 5280Armory and found a tune in the zeroes with almost 3 hours and ~350 rounds IIRC. See 6x5 thread for posted targets. Triggertime, Bluecore and Liberty institute all have 100 yard indoor ranges as well (But you will pay more)
Keep in mind that tuning at one distance changes what happens at other distances. Some distances benefit and others will degrade group sizes, barrel harmonics are real. I’ve starting looking at ranges with a visualization of huge sine waves going down them. Where the wave is positive I get smaller groups due to positive compensation, and where the wave dips negative I get bigger groups. Tuning at 100 yards may be more beneficial for you than tuning at 50 yards. If you are going to do Prs style shooting, makes sure the tuner wont move if bumped on barricades.
My Vudoo single shot is really accurate and have not considered changing the tuner! However my new Muller barrel on the repeater is not there yet. I only have about 500 rounds through it. I'm gonna see if I can adjust the tuner.
What I'm considering doing is adjusting it for 50 yards AND 100 yards if that makes a difference. I think I can leave the set screws loose and Mark 50 and 100.
What I'm considering doing is adjusting it for 50 yards AND 100 yards if that makes a difference. I think I can leave the set screws loose and Mark 50 and 100.
Here's a follow up post on what I did with the Harrell's Tuner. I got the Hopewell method completed this morning and I am very happy with the outcome.
The results were very much in line with the Hopewell instructions. After the "fine" tune I found the setting of 245 to be optimum - at least at 85 yards. My best 5 shot group at this setting and distance was .447" = .502MOA. Further shooting at various distance will be needed to verify.
I'm trying to get photos loaded but Rise Broad Band service is spotty, so not sure I'll get that added.
Bottom line - this tuner works! Glad I got it.
- Started at 8:00am and shot from 85 yards. 58*F 46% RH at the start - 75*F by finish. No wind.
- Ammo - Lapua Center X
- Rifle - Bergara B14 R - stock - except for TT Diamond 2 stage trigger
- Scope - Vortex PST gen 2, FFP 5-25 mil
- Shot from prone with Bald Eagle rest and rear bag.
I'm trying to get photos loaded but Rise Broad Band service is spotty, so not sure I'll get that added.
Bottom line - this tuner works! Glad I got it.
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Real question is what is the Coors to group size relationship???
Yeah, I don’t know how I got 3 copies of that…now they’re all gone. Have to try to add that when I get back home. Yes, Coors is my beer, for sure.Real question is what is the Coors to group size relationship???
How does the Harrell's AR Tuner brake index on the muzzle? Shims or self timing nut?
My tuner Harrels tactical tuner break was delivered Friday. Went to the range yesterday for a quick session. Got it shooting really good, but did not have time to do a full Hopewell test. 50 yard groups tightened up to 1 nice hole. Results carried to 100 yards with sub 1” groups with impressively low vertical stringing. Was playing with some crosswind as well. (2” sticker)
A picture of the current setting. I started at 0 and made full revolutions (0 to 0) until I found a group at 50 that looked good. Again, haven’t set it past 50 yet but on my next quiet range day with a few spare hours I’ll do a full test. (20” T1X SK LRM)
A picture of the current setting. I started at 0 and made full revolutions (0 to 0) until I found a group at 50 that looked good. Again, haven’t set it past 50 yet but on my next quiet range day with a few spare hours I’ll do a full test. (20” T1X SK LRM)
Awesome ! Next outing look for 3-4 numbers in a row, all round groups, all same vertical POI. There will be one.
Are you referring to 3-4 tuner setting numbers (i.e 50, 55, 60 etc) with all round groups with one standout winner?
Yep. Like 3-4-5. As opposed to revolutions
I've got a couple harrell tuners I'm selling if anyone is in need. $100 each, plus actual shipping. Call number in signature if interested.
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I've had excellent results with Joe's tuner on my 20" Kidd Walther barrel and just received my Harrels that will be going on the Shilen ratchet that Johathan Elrod has now. I was fortunate to find one since the wait list Shilen quoted me is like 10-12 months, I'm happy with the Krieger Johathan set up for me and was going to get a tuner for it, but the Shilen showed up. Reading many positive reports from the benchresters about the Shilens, I'm looking forward to wringing it out. Hopefully, it will be my last barrel. The Krieger is chambered like the one he set up for Chris Simmons to win the NRL Championship in Nebraska. Mine is 22", Chris used a 20" and Jonathan shoots a 22". He is very happy with the results and is using that chamber with the Bison Tactical prefits he does. Following Joe Chacon's recommendation, I am going to go with 24". I don't like to keep extra stuff around so once I get the Shilen, I will part with the Krieger. I expect to try the Purdy formula for the Harrels tuner. Joe set up his tuner for 20" and I haven't had to touch it. That is not to say it couldn't be tweaked some and I may tinker with it at a later date. I plan to have Jonathan use a modified 52D chamber reamer that I've had good luck with. I shoot Eley mainly because I can get it when I need it and following results I've heard from Kevin Nevius, a 2 degree leade is best though Lapua likes 1 1/2.
Jonathan did a beautiful job on my Krieger, I hope to have the Shilen in my hands in January unless there is a delay in getting the reamer. Lover tinkering with my Rimx.
Jonathan did a beautiful job on my Krieger, I hope to have the Shilen in my hands in January unless there is a delay in getting the reamer. Lover tinkering with my Rimx.
Jonathan has both my Shilen blank and I sent him the GM that I had to get rechambered locally after determining what was wrong with it. I used a Manson Bentz recut to 52D length and a 2 degree leade. It shoots extremely well but I want to try a shorter leade. I spoke with Kevin Nevius yesterday. He has done extensive testing, previously with Eley and now Lapua (who sponsors him) and has found that Lapua does best with a 1.5 degree leade, Eley with 2 degree. The reamer I'm having Jonathan use is an unmodified Bentz with 1.5 degree and will be set to engrave .030 as recommended by Kevin. I'll have him set the other chamber with the 2 degree leade to engrave .090 also per Kevin's recommendation for Eley (GM barrel). It will be interesting to do a comparison with targets I have. I went with the Shilen ratchet since this is what the majority of benchresters are using. We will see. Interestingly, though the Bentz is sold as a semiauto chamber, it has virtually the same specs as the 52D chamber which has a good history and the neck is the same as the Calfee II with the only difference being the leade angle. The good thing about all this is, if I decide to go with a 2 degree leade in the Shilen, I can have Dave recut it as he did with my other reamer to 2 degrees but leave it at .670 instead of the .580 of the original reamer. I love the ability Rimx gives to experiment.
I hope to have both barrels back from Jonathan in the next couple of weeks. I'll get a few comparison groups from Krieger before I sell it off since I don't really want to buy and tune with another tuner. I am confident the Shilen with tuner will do what I want.
I hope to have both barrels back from Jonathan in the next couple of weeks. I'll get a few comparison groups from Krieger before I sell it off since I don't really want to buy and tune with another tuner. I am confident the Shilen with tuner will do what I want.
As an update, I have a Harrell's tuner cut to the Shilen specs and an SFP Pro-X tuner in the mail to Jonathan to fit to the Shilen barrel so I will be able to test one against the other. The reviews I've read indicate that I shouldn't expect to see any difference in performance. I like the fact that the Pro-X has different length bushings for different length barrels and instructions that bring the dimensions to tune to the 9th harmonic. My Harrels tuner has an adjustment range that will also tune to the 9th. I have seen some videos of shooters using the Hopewell method and finding 2 or 3 "sweet spots" along the way. It would be interesting to see measurements of the barrel for each one and if they correspond to different harmonics. The examples I've seen seem to repeat at regular intervals.
Here we go again with the harmonics tune. Ask a top br shooter if it works. The answer is a NO. There are no top br shooters that use Tony's method of tuning. I've tried it and it didn't work. If your gun is capable of being tuned then a normal Harrells tuner will work. If your gun isn't capable of being tuned ie. Ignition is off, bedding is off etc.... you will be chasing a tune forever. Once a gun is tuned that's it doesn't need anymore tuning just find the right lot of ammo. I know cause I shoot with the best in the country in br on a regular basis for the past 10 years. The .22 game is all about barrel and bullets tuning is the easy part
I can't dispute this. I have only seen some videos and pictures showing the Hopewell method and it appears that there are "good" groups that repeat at regular intervals with one or 2 being the best. That would seem to indicate that harmonics are in play. I may be wrong, just an observation. I have measured my Harrells tuner and it looks to be in the range I need for my barrel. Since the range of in tune to out of tune is so small, I don't think my measuring of final length will be accurate enough to end up with a "perfect" (or best) tune however, I think it will get me in the ballpark and I will "Hopewell", increasing and decreasing incrementally to see what happens. To me it looks like the Hopewell method is tuning to harmonics. and finding the best. The good thing is, maybe it is all "Black magic and witchcraft" (both terms I'm sure on the inappropriate language list), all that matters is that tuners work.and anything that helps make bullets hit closer together is a good thing.
With the current cost and limited availability of ammo, anything that can help shortcut finding a good tune can't be a bad thing.
With the current cost and limited availability of ammo, anything that can help shortcut finding a good tune can't be a bad thing.
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That's the thing there are no short cuts. If your gun is able to be tuned it won't take long. If the total system isn't able to be tuned you'll be chasing your tail forever. Purdy method does not work
