RL16 vs H4350 at today's prices... What would you buy?

[Kiba]

Can’t make up my mind and figured I’d ask here.

Years ago I switched my 6.5CM, 6 Dasher, and 22BR from H4350 to RL16, and now I’m also running a 22GT with RL16. When I first tested RL16 vs H4350 I found faster velocities, temp sensitivity was better, groups were as good or better than H4350… but it wasn’t a free lunch as RL16 is dirtier than H4350 and required more frequent cleaning.

I’m getting a bit low on RL16 and it’s time to restock since several dealers have 8# jugs and there are some free shipping and hazmat deals today. However, in the last 9 months Alliant pricing has gone insane and an 8# jug of RL16 is now $100ish more than a jug of H4350.

If you were restocking today, would you pay the rather hefty price premium to stick with RL16 which you already have loads worked up for and you know works, or would you save some money and give up a little bit of performance and switch back to H4350 and redevelop all your current RL16 loads? I know H4350 will work very well in every load I currently use RL16 in as well as require less cleaning, I’ll just lose a bit of velocity and pick up some additional temp sensitivity.

For the same price as 40# of RL16 I can buy 48# H4350, that’s not insignificant…

Thoughts?

 

[Threadcutter308]

Can’t make up my mind and figured I’d ask here.

Years ago I switched my 6.5CM, 6 Dasher, and 22BR from H4350 to RL16, and now I’m also running a 22GT with RL16. When I first tested RL16 vs H4350 I found faster velocities, temp sensitivity was better, groups were as good or better than H4350… but it wasn’t a free lunch as RL16 is dirtier than H4350 and required more frequent cleaning.

I’m getting a bit low on RL16 and it’s time to restock since several dealers have 8# jugs and there are some free shipping and hazmat deals today. However, in the last 9 months Alliant pricing has gone insane and an 8# jug of RL16 is now $100ish more than a jug of H4350.

If you were restocking today, would you pay the rather hefty price premium to stick with RL16 which you already have loads worked up for and you know works, or would you save some money and give up a little bit of performance and switch back to H4350 and redevelop all your current RL16 loads? I know H4350 will work very well in every load I currently use RL16 in as well as require less cleaning, I’ll just lose a bit of velocity and pick up some additional temp sensitivity.

For the same price as 40# of RL16 I can buy 48# H4350, that’s not insignificant…

Thoughts?

I use H4350 in 6x47L with excellent results. When I was working up the load, it came in the quickest of any load I had ever developed. It helped that there was a lot of useful load information available.

Unfortunately, I've never used RL16, so I can't provide a meaningful comparison.

Regardless, I'd still be inclined to go the H4350 route.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

They’ve been interchangeable in my experience (6&6.5 CM)- 16 maybe a tad more speed. You can’t go wrong with either, but It would be a hard sell for me to spring for an extra $100 if both were in stock.

 

[johnnyvw]

Would you have to do load development all over again? If so, factor that cost in (plus the time)

 

[Kiba]

Would you have to do load development all over again? If so, factor that cost in (plus the time)

Partially... I already have H4350 loads worked up for my 6.5cm rifles (x3) and 6 dasher as I was running H4350 in those before switching to RL16, but that was for an old lot of H4350 so I would have to verify them all again with the new lot of H4350.

The 22br and 22GT have never seen H4350 so I'd be starting fresh on those.

It's not a huge amount of time or components to work up new H4350 loads for everything, but it is a consideration. For the same price as 40#of RL16 I can get 48# of H4350, and at worst case it's going to take about 1 to 1.5#of powder to sort out new H4350 loads for everything.

I knew I should have stocked up on RL16 about a year ago when it was "only" $340ish for 8#, lol

 

[AllenOne1]

If I had already determined that RL16 was the BEST for my purposes, that is what I would buy.

 

[DLS]

I am facing this same dilemma. I started with Reloder 16 as soon as I could get it because at that time it was hard to get H4350 thanks to Hornady putting that load data on boxes of 6.5 Creedmoor back then.
I have about 12lbs left but will start looking at alternatives for sure.
I am thinking even Vihtavuori pricing now is much better comparatively speaking against Alliant so may look at N555

 

[Kiba]

I am facing this same dilemma. I started with Reloder 16 as soon as I could get it because at that time it was hard to get H4350 thanks to Hornady putting that load data on boxes of 6.5 Creedmoor back then.
I have about 12lbs left but will start looking at alternatives for sure.
I am thinking even Vihtavuori pricing now is much better comparatively speaking against Alliant so may look at N555

What makes my situation somewhat amusing is after trying some RL16 right after it came out and deciding to switch from H4350 I bought 56# of RL16... And sold the 48# of unopened H4350 I had in the cabinet for the current market price at the time which was about $175 a jug.

If I hadn't sold that H4350, I'd still have 48# in the cabinet ready to go when I run out of RL16 and wouldn't have to pay today's crazy prices.

Funny you mentioned Hornady putting the load info on the boxes. I bought a case of 6.5cm 140gr amax for my first 6.5cm which wasn't long after the 6.5cm hit the market, and the factory Hornady boxes listed 42.5gr H4350 and that stuff ran about 2880fps out of my 28" barrel. The current factory loads and Hodgdon's and Hornady's reloading data are nowhere near that spicy anymore... probably because primers were nearly falling out after 3 firings, lol!

 

[Threadcutter308]

What makes my situation somewhat amusing is after trying some RL16 right after it came out and deciding to switch from H4350 I bought 56# of RL16... And sold the 48# of unopened H4350 I had in the cabinet for the current market price at the time which was about $175 a jug.

If I hadn't sold that H4350, I'd still have 48# in the cabinet ready to go when I run out of RL16 and wouldn't have to pay today's crazy prices.

I think most everyone has done that at one time or another. Wish I hadn't sold my IMI Galil in .308 way back when.........

 

[secondofangle2]

I would pay the extra for the RL16 and consider it an "insurance premium" against the risk/uncertainty (let alone the time and all the many costs) of not finding a load that shoots as good for all of those cartridges.

We get all excited about component cost increases, but averaged over everything, the extra cost of RL16 per shot is a drop in the ocean

 

[Kiba]

Decided to stick with what I have and know, just spent enough money to buy a very nice scope on RL16 instead... Lol

Now if I could only snag some more H4895, I'd be set for a while.

 

[secondofangle2]

RL16 is THAT good, huh?

 

[Kiba]

RL16 is THAT good, huh?

I would have spent the same amount stocking up on H4350, but I would have ended up with 1 more jug for about the same amount spent.

 

[Gtscotty]

I do love RL16, and switched to it from H4350 years ago. At this point though, I've been able to find good loads for most of my rifles with Staball 6.5, it's always available and gives velocities near RL16. Might be worth experimenting with a bit now that you have some more RL16 laid back for now.

 

[secondofangle2]

a year ago, beta testing the superspiller, I made the foolish mistake of having multiple jugs of powder on the bench. One was RL50, one was RL15.

I mindlessly poured a bunch of RL50 into the jug of RL15, wasting about 8# of what was then, unobtanium. A $500 mistake. And RL15 was magic sauce in both my .223 and my .308. So I changed to AR-COMP (got like 16# of it) for 223 and VARGET for 308. THey're more temp stable than RL15, but slower and less accurate. like 100 fps slower and 1/4 MOA less accurate.

It was a difficult choice, but seeing the writing on the wall for RL15 availability and rationalizing I was due for a change because of temp sensitivity (even though I don't shoot 223 or 308 under circumstances where temp sensitivity matters much), I just stocked up on varget and AR-comp.

When PV got RL15 recently, I broke down and bought 5#, despite being stocked up on VARGET and AR-COMP. Because it really is THAT good.

 

[Shoots 700's]

Both are great powders, I would get whatever is easiest to get a quantity of

 

[Trevor300wsm]

We get all excited about component cost increases, but averaged over everything, the extra cost of RL16 per shot is a drop in the ocean

Im fortunate enough that I dont have to worry about it, but the component cost increase is absolutely something someone could get "excited" about. Its fucking ridiculous. Anyone who says it isnt is just lying to themselves (rich or poor). Im using 8lb jugs of Varget that have a price tag of $159/$179 on them. The current price is an ass fucking $400 +/-. Dont even get me started on primers and those bullets in the yellow box. Thankfully I have enough primers, Varget and 4350 to get me thru maybe 2 more match seasons, but Ive already had to buy some bullets just to keep a stock on my bench. It might just be a drop in the ocean for the average Joe who shoots 500rnds a year, but when you are shooting 7K-10K centerfire rounds a year, yeah it fucking matters.

 

[Kiba]

a year ago, beta testing the superspiller, I made the foolish mistake of having multiple jugs of powder on the bench. One was RL50, one was RL15.

I mindlessly poured a bunch of RL50 into the jug of RL15, wasting about 8# of what was then, unobtanium. A $500 mistake. And RL15 was magic sauce in both my .223 and my .308. So I changed to AR-COMP (got like 16# of it) for 223 and VARGET for 308. THey're more temp stable than RL15, but slower and less accurate. like 100 fps slower and 1/4 MOA less accurate.

It was a difficult choice, but seeing the writing on the wall for RL15 availability and rationalizing I was due for a change because of temp sensitivity (even though I don't shoot 223 or 308 under circumstances where temp sensitivity matters much), I just stocked up on varget and AR-comp.

When PV got RL15 recently, I broke down and bought 5#, despite being stocked up on VARGET and AR-COMP. Because it really is THAT good.

AR Comp is magic pixie dust in my 223AI and ARs with 50gr bullets and also with 40gr bullets in a friend's 22-250. Great speed, extremely accurate, low ES/SD, very temp stable, and clean. I didn't have great luck with AR comp with 72-77gr bullets in the 223s, H4895 (another unobtanium powder) was far more accurate and is still the best I've tried for 72-77s in the 223/223AI.

I shot a 1" 5 shot group at 500y with nosler 40 grain lead free ballistic tip varmint bullets out of my friends 22-250 one wind free morning, 4200fps with AR comp... Couldn't believe it. Followed it up with another group nearly as small (props to Mark at Spartan Precision for chambering that barrel.) Zero pressure signs, and according to quick load there was still decent margin to turn it up more.

Im fortunate enough that I dont have to worry about it, but the component cost increase is absolutely something someone could get "excited" about. Its fucking ridiculous. Anyone who says it isnt is just lying to themselves (rich or poor). Im using 8lb jugs of Varget that have a price tag of $159/$179 on them. The current price is an ass fucking $400 +/-. Dont even get me started on primers and those bullets in the yellow box. Thankfully I have enough primers, Varget and 4350 to get me thru maybe 2 more match seasons, but Ive already had to buy some bullets just to keep a stock on my bench. It might just be a drop in the ocean for the average Joe who shoots 500rnds a year, but when you are shooting 7K-10K centerfire rounds a year, yeah it fucking matters.

Exactly! I just finished another case of CCI450s that I paid $153/5k for back around 2016.

I just ordered another 3 cases last week, and they were about $450/5k... Ouch.

I've cut back on shooting somewhat to save a few bucks, and it sucks. Luckily slugs for my PCP air rifle are still very affordable, as I shoot it a lot since I can use it at the house without pissing off the neighbors or scaring their horses.

I do love RL16, and switched to it from H4350 years ago. At this point though, I've been able to find good loads for most of my rifles with Staball 6.5, it's always available and gives velocities near RL16. Might be worth experimenting with a bit now that you have some more RL16 laid back for now.

Crap, wish you posted that earlier... I meant to pick up some staball match along with the RL16 order to test with 72-77s in my 223AIs since H4895 is still nearly impossible to get. I still have 24# or so of varget I could use for that application, but it was slower and less accurate than H4895 in the 3 rifles I tried it in. It works ok, but not as good as H4895.

 

[gigamortis]

I believe the extra "dirtiness" of RL-16 is the anti-copper fouling aspect of the powder. I have heard from more than one source that this extra "dirtiness" helps keep cold bore shots very close to the same POI as warm bore shots.

I'm certainly a RL-16 fan. Back when the H4350 was near impossible to find, I could easily find RL-16. RL-16 has a little bit more forgiveness on chamber pressure near max loads that H4350 would have already flattened primers.

 

[Aftermath]

H stuff over RL stuff for me

 

[jpjulian]

Got an email alert from Natchez today for RL16 on "sale" for $56.99 per pound. Supposedly $22 off the msrp of $78.99 per pound. Sorry friend, I don't care how much my rifle may like RL16, that ain't happening when VV can be had for $40ish a pound in 8# kegs. But that's me and my budget.

 

[Kiba]

Got an email alert from Natchez today for RL16 on "sale" for $56.99 per pound. Supposedly $22 off the msrp of $78.99 per pound. Sorry friend, I don't care how much my rifle may like RL16, that ain't happening when VV can be had for $40ish a pound in 8# kegs. But that's me and my budget.

10+ years ago I remember lots of people complaining that Vihtavuori was always more expensive than Hodgdon and not worth the premium, but today things have flipped and Vihtavuori is often some of the most reasonably priced powder out there... and still very good.

Vihtavuori isn't immune from price jumps either unfortunately... I ordered a bunch of N133 for 40s and 50s in the 223s in late November and it was $245 for an 8# jug. Today the cheapest I'm finding it in stock is $294 and most places that have stock are about $310. That's a decent increase in 2.5 months. Still more reasonable than most Hodgdon powders, and way more reasonable than anything from Alliant.

I still use N133 for 40s and 50s in 223 as it works very well, and 3N38 in my USPSA open blaster.

Speaking of Alliant pricing themselves right out of finding buyers, here's an interesting data point... Powder Valley showed 283 8# jugs of RL16 in stock last night, and as of now they still show 277 8# jugs in stock. What's very interesting is they are not enforcing item quantity order limits for RL16 other than their 50# max daily powder buy limit, so you could buy 6x 8# jugs and 2x 1# containers in a single order if you wanted to. It's moving very, very slowly (selling only 6 jugs in a 24 hour period is shockingly slow IMO) probably because of how high the prices are on Alliant powder. Compare that to H4350-- even though Powder Valley still has a bunch of H4350 in stock, unlike RL16 the H4350 has an order limit of 2x 8# jugs per customer, presumably because of popularity... I guess being $85 cheaper per jug will do that.

Wish we could get some additional domestic US powder production capacity up and running to help with the supply and pricing situation. Depending on plants in foreign countries to produce what seems to be most of our popular powders really puts us in a bind.

 

[Bacarrat]

I'm now using up my H4350 so I don't use my RL 16 since it's so hard to get and now super expensive. After I use both of them up I'm going to start using VV powders. Hodgdon has gotten way out of hand with the pricing of the powders. They are blaming "inflation" while VV has been super stable. Pretty sure the powders and primer manufacturers are just making up prices as they go and are gouging the customers as much as they can. No way inflation has cause Hodgdon to raise their prices 2.5x what it use to cost 3 years ago. It's not that bad. Plus they don't even make their own shit. They are basically a marketing company.

 

[diggler1833]

I have had zero problems or remorse switching to less expensive components. In my Creedmoor-class cartridges, I've found good success running H100V, SW LR (when it was cheap), N150 etc...

There was a time not long ago when I bought Hodgdon and IMR because they were $40/keg cheaper than Vhitavouri. When they became $40/keg more, I became a VV user. I'll use a bullet that gives me .1 MOA worse accuracy if it means I'm saving 20 cents per projo too.

I will also caveat here by noting that my "range" is on my property...so my time is less valuable than someone who has to drive an hour each way to the range. I get that part, and component cost needs to factor that in as well.

 

[Chris1972]

That’s about 7 cents per round on your largest cartridge. I’m no fan of R16, but if it was my thing I wouldn’t flinch at that price if I thought it was a superior powder for my needs.

 

[Kocher]

When I’m out of 4350 IMR in H 4350 I may just stick with shooters world long rifle

that seems to be excellent for development and is quite a bit cheaper

 

[Cody S]

may I ask why you're not considering N555?I can't believe I'm saying this but it's the cheapest option I can find and...
it's vihtavouri...
IYKYK

 

[Cody S]

oh right to answer your question, I have both and have tried both in the 6 creed.
h4350 for me all day. I found h4350 to be so temp stable I don't see a need for a *more* temp stable powder as I don't shoot after 120 degrees anyway.
reloader 16, 23, and 26 are BY FAR the dirtiest powders I've ever tried. I ruled them out back when they were cheap because I shoot suppressed and I hate cleaning more than I have to.
I am a big fan of h4350 and I still have about 32lbs of that but next time around I'll be buying n555 unless h4350 drops back in half where it should be at around 150-180$ per 8lb.
otherwise I'll shoot VV.

 

[secondofangle2]

Is n555 hard on barrels like n570 is?

 

[MK20]

I'm now using up my H4350 so I don't use my RL 16 since it's so hard to get and now super expensive. After I use both of them up I'm going to start using VV powders. Hodgdon has gotten way out of hand with the pricing of the powders. They are blaming "inflation" while VV has been super stable. Pretty sure the powders and primer manufacturers are just making up prices as they go and are gouging the customers as much as they can. No way inflation has cause Hodgdon to raise their prices 2.5x what it use to cost 3 years ago. It's not that bad. Plus they don't even make their own shit. They are basically a marketing company.

It's because VV makes their own nitrocellulose. Hodgdon does not.


On that note, which powders from VV are actually temp stable and are good for 6.5 creedmoor?

 

[John Glidewell]

Is n555 hard on barrels like n570 is?

No, not in my experience. It is easier on barrels than H4350 and RL16.

 

[david walter]

Unless the 40# of RL16 is the same lot as your current batch, which is unlikely, you’re going to have to work up loads with the new lot anyway.

So, H4350.

 

[secondofangle2]

Yeah, I'm getting away from RL16.

When I was testing it after load development, over a string of shots with a clean barrel, it was speeding up 25 fps per shot for the first 3 shots! Consistently! I don't know what the hell that was but I haven't seen it with other powders and I dont' want to see it anymore.

 

[Bacarrat]

It's because VV makes their own nitrocellulose. Hodgdon does not.


On that note, which powders from VV are actually temp stable and are good for 6.5 creedmoor?

I hear people like N555, I have a 8lb jug, but haven't opened it yet. I think the 1 series powders is a much more temp stable powder from everything I read, but will not produce the speed the 5 series powder will.

 

[Cody S]

n555 is marketed as being the most temperature stable powder in it's class.
I have my doubts but any standard temp stability is good enough for me, plus I hear it's clean burning!
I have a mild stockpile of h4350 and to me it's the tits and the gold standard.
but I'll be damned if I'll pay more for hodgdon than vihtavouri when n555 will give better speeds at lower pressures, plus it's 10% cheaper!
what a crazy time...
after my last 40lbs of h4350 is gone I likely won't buy more at these prices, too dirty.
everything seems hard on 6 creed barrels if you push it.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I have a good bit of H4350 but I will likely switch to VV something whenever that runs out if this crazy price stays. Luckily that will be a while for me so I have time to wait and see