Rifle Scopes S&B : New 3-27x PMII -- On the site!

[TheGerman]

Ah, the very familiar and timeless German approach to customer relations in regards to the quality of their product.

It is made so well that even offering a warranty on it insinuates that there is the slightest possibility something could be less than perfect. How dare you ask about a warranty!

 

[cramey74]

Anyone who has a new or like new S&B PMII that no longer likes it, and would like to upgrade to a Vortex or Bushnell please contact me. I will be glad to hook you up.

 

[LastShot300]

I believe the MSR will be an option or the scope can be ordered with one once options are listed and production begins.

I will admit there were problems associated with the locking turrets but I will also admit that more than 50% of those issues were a misunderstanding of the function and lack of proper written instructions.
People would loosen the set screws to zero the knobs, feel and hear clicks and immediately remove the retaining screw and create their own disaster.

To even consider that we have reduced the warranty period on our product due to a decreased level of confidence is anything but true.

Any chance to make a post, with a step-by-step approach to correctly operate the turrets when zeroing it?

I have a friend who had to return the scope (LT model)

And to be honest, while I like my PM II very much the so called "instructions manual" is basically useless...any plans to release a good and improved manual?

 

[mckenzie]

i think the hide members should be glad to have vendors that take the time to involve themselves enough to provide input here with guick replys to ? and also with the fixing of problems, that is why i am willing to wait for a rifle from GAP and have just placed an order with MILE HIGH SHOOTING for an A.I. and im thinking about a SCHIMDT&BENDER scope, so thanks JEERY R. and all the other great vendors i have not named , it is nice not to be left high and dry, would i buy a TRG-22 ? nope, no service

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Anyone who has a new or like new S&B PMII that no longer likes it, and would like to upgrade to a Vortex or Bushnell please contact me. I will be glad to hook you up.

I love this post!!! Thank you.

When people look at my S&B they talk about the cost, but when they look through it, they shut up.

And then when they operate the turrets, they get a thoughtful look.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Jerry R.

With what S&B has done in the last year, (all the things Graham mentions above) its no wonder Companies like Vortex and Bushnell can come in offer a lifetime warranty, great customer service, at the same time support the shooting sports, listen to shooters and make appropriate changes. and get this -------- offer all this at a price 1/3 the cost of S&B.

S&B lost me along time ago!!!!

George, I absolutely LOVE my Hospitaller. I will likely post a new thread on how happy I am with it.

This post caught me strange in that you sold me this rifle for almost $5,000, when I could have obtained a rifle with almost similar accuracy for 1/3 of the cost. But do you know what pushed me over the edge, several reasons:

1.) Resale - I can sell the rifle used for minimal (if any) loss of dollars. If I spend a couple grand upgrading a Remington 700P, it will still sell for the original price and all of the upgrades get me nothing.
2.) Confidence - I wanted to know that there was a guarantee for accuracy. I wanted it to fit my type of shooting. I wanted it to remove any doubt regarding the rifle and leave all of the excuses towards me.

So I took this philosophy and I went with Schmidt and Bender. I can sell it used for zero loss of dollars later and it will work the way I want it to. Not that I would sell it, mind you. Costs are different when you consider how long term a rifle/scope investment can be. I have no plans to purchase another rifle/scope for about 10 years. So really I save money over the long haul instead of buying 3-4 rifle/scope combinations.

BTW - You have no agenda, you only care about the customer. I know, I am one of them.
BBTW - I just shot my first match with your rifle and I score 4th out of 23 shooters. The only difference was my rifle and scope, which propelled me up 8-10 places. Thank you George. I cannot wait to meet you one day!

 

[AussieShooter]

S&B should have no reason to reduce there warranty if there product is so reliable.

 

[AussieShooter]

S&B should have no reason to reduce there warranty if there product is so reliable.

 

[Dogtown]

S&B should have no reason to reduce there warranty if there product is so reliable.

This myth doesn't seem to die, even when it's been corrected in this thread. The 2 year warranty change was imposed on S&B by EU regulations with regards to military products. Their hunting line still has the 30 year warranty.

 

[poison123]

This myth doesn't seem to die, even when it's been corrected in this thread. The 2 year warranty change was imposed on S&B by EU regulations with regards to military products. Their hunting line still has the 30 year warranty.

What Myth? A PMII that is bought now says 2 year warranty in its warranty book. Whether Jerry says he'll honor past that is immaterial because:

1.) He might not always be there.
2.) Might get told by the Higher Ups to quit that shit.

 

[Dogtown]

Seriously? The myth is that S&B chose deliberately to reduce the warranty to 2 years, as many people are implying here by complaining that they no longer stand behind their product. As Jerry stated, and can be confirmed by others in the industry in Europe, it was new EU regulations regarding sales of military products that forced S&B to reduce their warranty. In other words, to comply with the new regulations, their PMII line can only have a 2 year warranty while they can keep their hunting line at the previous 30 year warranty.

Jerry, correct me if I'm wrong, but I trust I'm reading correctly.

 

[sharac]

Would you care to quote which EU directive would that be - they are all public on eur-lex site? The only directives that come to mind are general goods 2 year warranties which deals with consumer goods and an INCREASE from 1 year to 2 year warranty period and not MANDATORY decrease to two year. As in you can't have less than 2 years but you CAN HAVE more than 2...

Are you actually saying that EU Commision would propose a mandatory decrease of all warranties exceeding 2 years to max two years especially for military contracts/items which are funded by taxpayers which are a bit sensitive to government spending in the last few years after such stellar upturn in general world economy? And even if that were the case how would a law adopted in EU have any impact on sales in USA where you could set any warranty period you'd like since (last time i checked) EU laws do not apply in USA or do they?

Don't make poor excuses it was simple business decision to lower warranty period for this line (or perhaps all next PM lines - that should increase your sales a lot i guess) and since there are pieces which cannot be sold to .gov they are now available for civvies putting a label "so secret noone ever knew about them except those who are really really in the know and" could boost sales to poor wanna be commandos with 5k scope on their rifle.

Its not just Bender also Hensoldt suffers from "too much gravy from .gov business" to be frank...

 

[Dogtown]

Yep, it was S&B Europe, not EU. Not a myth. Thanks for the correction.

 

[AussieShooter]

Nobody is saying the Minimum warranty period is 2 years.

Emphasis on the word minimum.

Why would a government bring in legislation that caps a warranty period?
It makes no sense as it would reduce consumer confidence in there product and not increase it.

It appears and this is just one mans perspective, that S&B are relying on the fact that they have been awarded fat military contracts and no longer need to honour the civilian sector for the PM II series.

What would be interesting to see is whether this enforced 2 year max warranty is stipulated in the military contracts or if the military contracts still have the 30 year warranty.

I find it hard to believe the military would purchase a scope that if after 2 years there is a problem with it they would have to pay extra for that service.

 

[tylerw02]

I find it hard to believe the military would purchase a scope that if after 2 years there is a problem with it they would have to pay extra for that service.

Military contracts usually include, in the contract, provisions for servicing the item.



You guys keep wonder why margins for dealers are going down and prices are going up must not have paid attention in economics class.

The reason why the price is going up is simply. Our Federal Reserve is pumping $85 billion a month into the economy, thereby devaluing the dollar and inflating costs. When you're doing business with a German company, you're going to have exchange rates play a large role in prices. Believe it or not, before the price increase at S&B, I can guarantee you their American operations were less profitable than they had been a few years before the inflation started. They are literally catching up.

 

[BasraBoy]

The only directives that come to mind are general goods 2 year warranties which deals with consumer goods and an INCREASE from 1 year to 2 year warranty period and not MANDATORY decrease to two year. As in you can't have less than 2 years but you CAN HAVE more than 2...

Exactly....does anybody really think that military/government procurement is made on the same terms as the general public or "consumers"? Apples and Oranges!

Maybe someone who has something other than a shop-bought S&B manual/documentation to refer to can clarify for those who believe one size fits all?

From my own experience of selling into government contracts within the EU, you also need to look at the definition of "consumer" in relation to the legislation.

 

[cramey74]

Military contracts usually include, in the contract, provisions for servicing the item.



You guys keep wonder why margins for dealers are going down and prices are going up must not have paid attention in economics class.

The reason why the price is going up is simply. Our Federal Reserve is pumping $85 billion a month into the economy, thereby devaluing the dollar and inflating costs. When you're doing business with a German company, you're going to have exchange rates play a large role in prices. Believe it or not, before the price increase at S&B, I can guarantee you their American operations were less profitable than they had been a few years before the inflation started. They are literally catching up.

This^^^^^^ Just like everyone thinks fuel prices go up because a barrel of oil goes up. The price of a barrel of oil pretty much stays the same, but it takes more American dollars to buy a barrel.

 

[poison123]

This^^^^^^ Just like everyone thinks fuel prices go up because a barrel of oil goes up. The price of a barrel of oil pretty much stays the same, but it takes more American dollars to buy a barrel.

Ya that might hold true if the exchange rate for Marks to Dollars hadn't been fairly stable +/- .10 usd for the last 12 months.

 

[vh20]

I offer this post only as honest feedback for SB as I am a potential new customer. I have always wanted a PMII, and had planned to step up from my current NXS (SFP) to the PMII (FFP) next year. When NF came out with their new super FFP scope it was priced like a PMII, so I figured why not just get the time-proven PMII I always wanted instead? It has taken me a while to "trade-up" to better equipment, and get to a point where I could make the final jump to what I considered to be the ultimate scope (for me at least, and by the way I'm not knocking NF, I love their scopes, but the PMII has a track record that the Beast hasn't had an opportunity to achieve yet).

However, I was saddened to recently learn of the 2 yr. warranty thing, and it has given me great pause. I am not ruling it out, but I want to know more. Perhaps it could be like Ruger - who provide NO warranty at all, yet are known to repair practically anything you send them at no charge. I can live with that, but I haven't seen anyone from the company really SAY that here. As to the given-reason for the warranty reduction having something to do with European regulations, that is almost certainly untrue. As has been stated, the regulations being referenced are to require a MINIMUM warranty of 2 years. NO ONE has produced any reference to a regulation that requires a company LIMIT their warranty to a MAXIMUM of 2 years. That's ridiculous, and unless someone can post the exact regulation and its wording here I refuse to believe it is true. I think it is a simple case of conflating the wording of the referenced regulation from "minimum" to "maximum." Even the factory rep (Jerry R) here was unclear on the details as he stated the following: "As stated in my earlier post it was dictated by the European directive. I know nothing else about it aside from that to give a more detailed explanation." On one hand I want to trust a company like SB to take care of its customers in the same way Ruger does (i.e. to fix defects in materials and workmanship at no cost to the owner regardless of the warranty limitations), but on the other hand, when they give a reason for the reduction in warranty that just doesn't add up, it really gives me pause.

Finally, regarding the new scope and price - I think they have every right to charge anything they want for it. It is definitely out of my price range, but as Jerry said, it isn't meant for most of us. It has features on it that I simply do not need. I understand it should and will cost more than other offerings of theirs with less features, and it is up to them to find the price point that will maximize its success. I applaud them for making progress in their product line and offering ever-improving features.

I sincerely hope that Jerry will read this and take it as it as meant - honest feedback and not knee-jerk criticism, and I hope he will pass it and the rest of this thread along to the company execs. Perhaps they will eventually see their way clear to re-instate their previous terms. I also hope that he will clarify a little better just what we can expect from SB service when a scope is past its 2 years and breaks through no fault of the user. That could go a long way to relieve some of the fears being expressed here.

 

[Clusterfrack]

vh30,

I think the "european directive" means a S&B corporate decision, not EU law.

 

[BasraBoy]

I was saddened to recently learn of the 2 yr. warranty thing, and it has given me great pause.

It's been a reality in the EU for getting on for 10 years if not more...why this has only recently become such an issue for S&B is that they didn't implement it. I bought my first PMII in 2006 - 30 year warranty. My latest (last year) 2 years...go figure!

I also hope that he will clarify a little better just what we can expect from SB service when a scope is past its 2 years and breaks through no fault of the user. That could go a long way to relieve some of the fears being expressed here.

Why would you expect it to be different to any other goods that are out of warranty and needs fixing...?

You pay for the parts and labour necessary. The warranty isn't "two years (plus a little bit of wiggle room)" - it is "two years from date of purchase" (or possibly registration?).

The grey area that unscrupulous dealers/manufacturers may work is...how long has it been in stock with a dealer and is that also factored into the warranty period.......

 

[AussieShooter]

There are 2 separate issues here.


1). Price justification.

Is the price for Schmidt and Benders optics justified?


2). Warranty reduction.

Is the reason for the warranty reduction justified and how does it affect the quality assurance of the product.


Addressing 1).


It's one of the big boys in the optics community and offers high quality GLASS. No question there. Hence the cost for the glass quality is justified.



Addressing 2.)

There is no reason for a reduction in warranty duration if a product remains to have the same high standard of quality.

It is therefore questionable as to the reliability of the synergy between the different components that interact with the glass to form a working scope.

This includes the illuminated stadia and other electrical components as well as the repeatability of the tracking over time.

Schmidt and Bender may have the best glass on the planet (not saying they do) but if the rest of the components don't work the scope is an expensive monocular with a very angry owner.

It is based on this analysis of Schmidt and Benders PM II range that I will never purchase one of there optics until the day they change there warranty.

I will also advise anybody else to follow suit until that range has picked up there game so they don't have any issues as time progresses.

 

[gyr2]

I would like to know what EU Directive forced SB to lower the warranty to 2 years. EU Directives are directed to harmonizing national regulations to a certain standard; in relation with warranties, the defective product EU Directive states a general 2 year warranty minimum so any manufacturer can increase that minimum. And even though it refers to consumers, I do not see the need for the EU rules to protect the manufacturer from being asked a longer warranty by consumers or clients.
Now I am not saying there cannot be one Directive that puts a maximum limit on warranties but i would be surprised. Also, I do not know how much more "military" the PMII´s are than other "military"scopes whose warranty stands for much longer.
My guess is that hunting scopes enjoy a longer warranty because in the probability estimations of the manufacturer they are less likely to have problems as they tend to be used less.

No one get me wrong, I am a fan of SB PMII´s and have and use some of them. But one of them had an issue with the reticle after using it for some years on a 308 and the manufacturer does not cover this because the warranty has expired. Makes me think about other options. Like the 5-20x50 PMII that I have seen offered with 10 years warranty.

 

[11B-B4]

Hey jumping in here just because I think it may benefit others thinking the same thing.

If i bought a PMII a couple years ago when the 20 year warranty was still being listed does that mean I have 18 years left? Or is the warranty dropped completely?

I very much enjoyed dropping by the S&B booth last year at Shot show. It was the highlight of my trip as a manufacturer, exhibitor, and guest of the show. But i can't help but echo others' sentiments that not having some sort of substantial warranty might hurt buyer confidence.

My Omega Planet Ocean had a 5 year warranty I think from the authorized dealer I bought it from. However I had heard from diving friends that they had never had to service Omegas that they had been diving with for 20 years+. So I think it is reasonable to think if one buys quality they need not worry about the warranty. However, many S&B users have come forward with problems in the last few years. I'm not nay saying the company by any means. I just feel the warranty issue might cause large enough ripples in sales that S&B DE might have to rethink it's warranty policy.

 

[vh20]

It's been a reality in the EU for getting on for 10 years if not more...why this has only recently become such an issue for S&B is that they didn't implement it. I bought my first PMII in 2006 - 30 year warranty. My latest (last year) 2 years...go figure!
Why would you expect it to be different to any other goods that are out of warranty and needs fixing...?
You pay for the parts and labour necessary. The warranty isn't "two years (plus a little bit of wiggle room)" - it is "two years from date of purchase" (or possibly registration?).

The grey area that unscrupulous dealers/manufacturers may work is...how long has it been in stock with a dealer and is that also factored into the warranty period.......

You missed every point I was making.

There IS NO EU requirement that SB reduce their warranty. If there is, no one has provided a reference to it, and it shouldn't be that hard if it has been a reality in the EU for 10 years. The only regulation that has been referenced requires they provide a 2 year MINIMUM (not MAXIMUM) warranty. I agree with Clusterfrack that the mentioned "European directive" probably means it came from the European corporate offices. If I'm wrong, someone please provide the reference to the regulation that shows they were required to lower their warranty terms. It is well within their right to do it if they want, but it is being implied here that it was required by law and beyond their control. Any and all evidence presented here would indicate that is a deceitful claim. If you want to lower your warranty terms, fine. But please don't blame it on a forced regulation that doesn't appear to exist. Again, if I'm wrong I will be happy to learn of it, but no one can produce this regulation as yet.

As to the issue of service after warranty, I don't "expect" anything. It has been implied by several in this thread (including Jerry R, I believe) that SB will continue to "take care of" the customer after the 2 year period. I am simply asking for clarification on what that means. I "expect" nothing beyond what they claim. The "wiggle room" is not something I brought up. I mentioned Ruger, who has NO warranty, yet I've never heard of them charging a customer for fixing a broken gun if the customer didn't obviously abuse it. It isn't "grey", and it isn't "unscrupulous." It is simply the manufacturer's discretion, and I'm asking exactly what is being implied when they say they'll take care of their customers after the warranty period. I didn't say it, several others here did (including Jerry - I think. I'll have to go back and look). My reference to Ruger is because when they say it, everyone knows what it means.

 

[Graham]

Firearms warranties are a different animal. There are legal reasons why no written warranty is expressed or implied.

But perhaps we can all agree that it looks like SB has undergone some significant recent changes.

 

[BasraBoy]

I didn't miss your point, just your take on warranties seems somewhat rose-tinted nad a little out of focus.

You will find that some companies (the one I used to work for in electronics is but one example) differentiate between "consumer" and "professional" applications/products. Some companies will not offer a 2 year "consumer" warranty to "professional users", Others have had to increase their one year warranties, others will reduce or standardise to reduce costs.

You are correct, the option to decrease is not mandatory but I believe S&B are not alone in taking the opportunity to reduce their liabilities - in fact they seem pretty late in doing so. Welcome to the clusterfuck that is the EU - semantics and loopholes are the name of the game.

The EU directive on "consumer" products is MINIMUM two years warranty.

The cost of a 20 year (or in the case of my ex-employer - 25 year) warranty can be very high and, where non-proprietary parts/technology or software are used, it can be very difficult if not impossible to guarantee supply/support.

So the 2 year warranty stipulation was a godsend to some companies and they grabbed it with both hands and never looked back.

So, S&B have instigated it on their consumer products? Does it mean government contracts get the same? I'm betting no.

Is the warranty the only reason to buy an S&B? To me, No

Does ia 2 year warranty mean I would never buy another S&B? No

Would I restrict myself to buying something I needed purely because one day the warranty may expire and I might have to pay to fix it myself? No

Should you buy anything you can't afford to get fixed if needed? I'd say no.

Wiggle room? You asked what happens if something breaks after the warranty expires....well it's a pretty cut and dried in any warranty I've ever been involved with. As for "looking after customers " what details do you expect them to give you? Once they get sucked into that, its a can of worms.

For me the choice is simple, either buy from S&B and accept their terms or don't buy.

 

[vh20]

Firearms warranties are a different animal. There are legal reasons why no written warranty is expressed or implied.

But perhaps we can all agree that it looks like SB has undergone some significant recent changes.

Well, maybe I guess. Savage states 1 year, Remington either 1 or 2 years depending on model. Winchester and Ruger do not state any warranty.

On your second statement, it would appear so.

 

[leadbullet]

the 3-27 is priced out of my league but the 5-25 isn't, thanx SB for a great product.

 

[vh20]

I didn't miss your point, just your take on warranties seems somewhat rose-tinted nad a little out of focus.


Wiggle room? You asked what happens if something breaks after the warranty expires....well it's a pretty cut and dried in any warranty I've ever been involved with. As for "looking after customers " what details do you expect them to give you? Once they get sucked into that, its a can of worms.

For me the choice is simple, either buy from S&B and accept their terms or don't buy.

My goodness. Two countries separated by a common language, I guess. I don't know how you know what my take is on warranties (i.e. "rose-colored"). I am asking for a clarification on what has been implied here by others. It has been IMPLIED that they will fix things due to defects past the 2 years. I DIDN'T say that, THEY did. How is that my take on it? I'm not "sucking them into it," they offered it here. I'm asking what they mean. You seem hell-bent on ascribing a mindset to me that I do not have. I am simply asking them what to expect. (THEN I'll know what to expect, but not until). I don't know why you seem to have a problem with that. They brought it up, not me. I agree that if they say the warranty is 2 years and that's that, then so be it. But don't say the warranty is 2 years, but we'll always take care of our customers (wink, wink). I agree the choice is simple (buy and accept their terms or don't). But then don't be ambiguous on what those terms are.
And again, don't imply that you were forced to reduced your warranty by some EU regulation. It is deceitful, pure and simple.

Edit - I didn't mean this to sound harsh towards you, Barsa, so if it does I apologize. I'm just trying to convey to you that I don't have an expectation - I'm trying to get clarification on what a PROPER expectation should be. I agree with you that 2 years is 2 years and I'm fine with that concept, but there is an undercurrent here that something else is being implied. If 2 years really is 2 years, then it is wrong to imply otherwise.
Thanks (oops - Cheerio! haha)

 

[lifebreath]

I'll restate:

EU Directive, 1999/44/EC, that deals with a two-year warranty was put into place to ensure certain MINIMUM protections for consumers purchasing across borders in the EU. Nowhere does it "dictate" reduction to a two-year warranty, it dictates a MINIMUM two-year protection period. This is very clearly articulated in the 26 introductory "whereas" clauses, and scope of the directive, which states:

"1. The purpose of this Directive is the approximation of the laws, regulations and administrative provisions of the Member States on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees in order to ensure a uniform minimum level of consumer protection in the context of the internal market."

It then goes on to enumerate how customers are protected for a minimum of two years and the conditions of such protections. The key word here is *MINIMUM*. S&B could have continued its previous policy. They choose not to. I'll still buy, since their scopes rock.

 

[BasraBoy]

Edit - I didn't mean this to sound harsh towards you,a, so if it does I apologizeThanks (oops - Cheerio! haha)

vh20 - no apology needed and no offence taken.

I spend a considerable time dealing with warranty issues in my working life and have built up considerable resilience!

I am very aware of the emotive issues surrounding warranty and the all-too-prevalent opinion that, having bought a product a customer feels they own the company and are entitled to a lifetime of free support (even if they abuse the products to hell and back!

(Incidentally, in my experience over 20 years, one of the worst places for this attitude is Germany)

But don't lose sight of the fact that warranties are not designed for any purpose other than to limit the liabilities of a manufacturer for claims against faulty manufacturing or materials. They are not a "customers charter".

As Graham points out - perhaps it is more indicative of a change in S&B's business model or even main customer base that the typical military/government term of 20 years is now no longer offered (at least on over-the-counter sales to civilian users).

Whatever may be the case....they are still great scopes!

Toodle-oo! Pip, Pip!!



..PS I work for a British owned company (albeit not in the firearms or defence industries), manufacturing in the UK and (still!!) offering a 20 year parts and labour warranty on our products...so it can be done if the business wants to!.

 

[vh20]

..PS I work for a British owned company (albeit not in the firearms or defence industries), manufacturing in the UK and (still!!) offering a 20 year parts and labour warranty on our products...so it can be done if the business wants to!.

Yep, I know. My Marshall amp has a 5 year warranty on it if purchased in the US, but only 3 if purchased in the UK where it is made! No "forced directives" apply.
Buy that amp in the US and Robert is your father's brother.

 

[Dogtown]

Gaghhh...I'll take the HEAT round for this page of the thread swinging back into confusion about the EU's role in all of this. I had originally misread Jerry's comment on the first page as the EU being responsible, not the European division of S&B. And when I asked a friend in the industry in the Netherlands about the EU setting warranty limits he basically confirmed my poorly worded question. I think lifebreath and BasraBoy are correct.

 

[AussieShooter]

At the end of the day S&B could warrant there PM II line for 30 years as was previously the case.

The fact is they choose not to.

No one is expecting them to cover misuse or damage in there warranty.

What is expected is for them to live up to there reputation and track record for quality and reliability that has evolved over time since there inception.

Unless they are cutting costs on parts and components that had previously kept the majority of there PM II scopes running for the 30 years there would be no need to remove there warranty.

It's a shame as I am happy to purchase a $6000.00 scope knowing that for 30 years aslong as I take care of it I am guaranteed it will work or I will have it fixed with no unexpected costs incurred apart from postage.

It's a shame S&B because it's just another reason for consumers not to buy your product rather than to purchase a large ticket item from your company.

In the long run I think this will severely affect your sales as consumer confidence will diminish and as competitors try to increase there market share and diversify so this happens.

S&B must realise there PM II is currently at the apex for which all other tactical optics are judged, however NF is trying to take away some if not all of there market and with the BEAST being eagerly anticipated with glass that has been claimed to be on par with S&B by those in the know and offering a 10 year warranty I know where I will be placing my hard earned cash.

 

[BasraBoy]

Yep, I know. My Marshall amp has a 5 year warranty on it if purchased in the US, but only 3 if purchased in the UK where it is made! No "forced directives" apply.
Buy that amp in the US and Robert is your father's brother.

vh20 - Marshall are a great example...I have an model 1987 50watt top built in the very early 70's, I've had it since 1980, gigged regularly when I was younger - apart from the odd set of new valves and a conversion to an IEC mains lead done at the factory it still runs like a train.

Glass? I have a collection of WW2 vintage scopes (British, German, US and Soviet) - all still in working order and in regular use.

Rifles? - I have an all matching 1915 SMLE and two byf '41 Mausers that have been through World Wars and still work without problems.

What's the saying...??

Buy once, cry once?

Warranty's may bring peace of mind, but a well-made solid product is always going to be a solid, well-made product. IMHO S&B are GTG on this score.

Robert may be your father's brother but Fanny is my mother's sister!

Have a good weekend.

 

[vh20]

Same to you and Aunt Fanny, and that lovely JMP.

 

[Dark Horse]

Military contracts usually include, in the contract, provisions for servicing the item.



You guys keep wonder why margins for dealers are going down and prices are going up must not have paid attention in economics class.

The reason why the price is going up is simply. Our Federal Reserve is pumping $85 billion a month into the economy, thereby devaluing the dollar and inflating costs. When you're doing business with a German company, you're going to have exchange rates play a large role in prices. Believe it or not, before the price increase at S&B, I can guarantee you their American operations were less profitable than they had been a few years before the inflation started. They are literally catching up.

Then we should expect to pay 60% more for any product subject to an exchange rate-not just a single scope. Correct?

 

[Flyboy22]

I'd like to hear more about the scope itself, not the warranty politics.

Jerry, when you say the 3-27 will be a generation ahead in glass quality, how is this achieved? Isn't the current PMII fairly close to the optical limits of clarity?

Also, are there plans to introduce new models in the High Power 'series'? Say, a new-gen 5-25? Or others?

 

[scatsob]

A 2-18 would be pretty cool if they could keep it smallish and lightish.

 

[plastikosmd]

Time will tell as far as what the market will bear. At that price it is beginning to approach a level that borders on silly. Good for mil/leo/contract usage where u don't pay the bills or bragging rights people ImHo. If the 5x25 and 3x20's are selling like hotcakes, clearly there is room to go up on the price i guess. The glass would really have to be something special for me to consider as my current stable of s+b's are 3 k good but not 5 k good

 

[tylerw02]

Then we should expect to pay 60% more for any product subject to an exchange rate-not just a single scope. Correct?

Not all things, just things that are exchange rates and the dollar of the value have influence over. What is the difference in diesel fuel from a decade ago to today? What is the price of an AI AW now vs a decade ago? How much more USD are in circulation today than a decade ago? Not to say 100% of the high cost of this scope is due to inflation, but a large part of it is. I'd wager R&D, labor, etc have a large portion of the selling price.

 

[Delta Tactical]

I found this thread very interesting. I have no dog in this fight either way. Reading through all the comments though I couldn't help but think of something different to what all of you have mentioned. This may be completely way off base but it is just some food for thought.

The decision to reduce the warranty may in fact have nothing at all to do with the product. It may and I only say "may" be a pure business decision. Warranties are generally considered a liability to the balance sheet whether expressly stated on the financial reports or implied and factored into valuations. Therefore reducing the warranty automatically decreases the potential or probable liability going forward. What this in effect does it increases the value of the division or company. Why is this important? Well if a company was looking to sell the entire business or spin off the division in the near future they could demand a higher value based on the overall valuation (financial strength and position). Obviously as some of you state this may affect sales going forward but no doubt the calculations will have been done and the net benefit of such a move would be positive. Alternatively, they may be looking to increase the value of the business or the division in a hurry to prevent any takeover bids by way of a much higher net value.

The fact that although 2 years is the stated policy yet Jerry continues to service and repair these scopes outside of this supports the theory somewhat. It may all be for show at the top business level rather than actual practice.

Again, just a theory and some food for thought.

 

[dtibbals]

I find this thread pretty humorous. I work for a US manufacture as a regional sales manager over a 10 state area (not optics) who is an industry leader. We have warranties for the same item depending on what the use and environment is. One item for one user might be a 1 year warranty, another user and application on the same item might be 5 years etc. We have product that carries a 20 year warranty but change the environment or use and it might only have a 5 year warranty. Does that mean we don't believe in our product? Hell no! However when you manufacture 39 million of these items for just the North American market and do 3 billion in sales you can't throw a crazy long warranty on everything you sell. It is not that we have crap, in fact we are respected as the best and most expensive product in the industry. We have competitors that build crap and will have a longer warranty. A warranty doesn't help you much when the manufacture makes it about impossible to use the warranty or in one case last year goes out of business. What is the warranty worth now? Many companies use warranty, advertising, packaging etc to sell products, others put the focus in manufacturing and let the product speak for itself. We are ones who let the product speak for themselves. One of our slogans is "it's whats behind the label"...we build the best and our customers know they are getting the best! Our warranty covers only manufacture defects. Our warranty rate is less than 1/10 of 1% and the far majority of that is warranting customer abuse even though we do not have a written warranty that specifies we cover abuse. We believe in standing behind our customers the best we can, same thing S&B has been saying this entire time! The Tommy Boy video above pretty much sums it up guys!

 

[Flyboy22]

FWIW, I bought a Schmidt and Bender, with a 2 year warranty.

Why? Because I believe that a company that is established as the best in the business will fix a manufacturing defect regardless of what the paper warranty says.

Is it a risk? Sure. Maybe I'll get burned and have to pay for a repair one day. That's a chance I've taken to own a beautiful precise handmade optic. It's a simple question of risk vs reward, and faith in a legendary company that takes pride in their work.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

FWIW, I bought a Schmidt and Bender, with a 2 year warranty.

Why? Because I believe that a company that is established as the best in the business will fix a manufacturing defect regardless of what the paper warranty says.

Is it a risk? Sure. Maybe I'll get burned and have to pay for a repair one day. That's a chance I've taken to own a beautiful precise handmade optic. It's a simple question of risk vs reward, and faith in a legendary company that takes pride in their work.

I will be posting a thread shortly, possibly in a week or two, where Schmidt and Bender will repair damage I caused for only the cost of parts, no labor. They also will open up the scope and make sure there is no other damage. Once I get the scope back from Virginia, I will let you guys know. Not only did the rifle scope take a beating, it was only .2 millradians off and everything else functions perfectly. I shot a match last weekend and then sent it in. Stay tuned. Nothing to worry about regarding a 2 year warranty. The people at Schmidt and Bender will take care of your scope.

Besides, all this talk of warranties in this thread is silly. When has a person buying a Ferrari ever worried about the warranty? If it was a decision about warranties, then everyone would want to buy Hyundai's and Mitsubishi's: - Cars.com . Coincidentally, Ferrari ALSO has a 2 year warranty.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, from Knights Armament in regards to the SR-25.

Are you saying they're lying? I mean, Google is your friend in this case.

 

[KillShot]

Are you saying they're lying? I mean, Google is your friend in this case.

Ummm, no...they've admitted that civilian sales of the SR-25 isn't a concern. It's priced at $5,000+ because the idiots in government won't hesitate to spend the taxpayers money. I mean, Google is your friend in this case but let's not derail the topic at hand.


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[The_FNG]

It's pretty much the same problem March faces, the laws in Japan say they can only offer a small warranty period because of the small size of the company, but they'll stand behind their product for a hell of a lot longer than that.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Ummm, no...they've admitted that civilian sales of the SR-25 isn't a concern. It's priced at $5,000+ because the idiots in government won't hesitate to spend the taxpayers money. I mean, Google is your friend in this case but let's not derail the topic at hand.

Copy, I thought you were questioning their claims of military contracts.