Hunting & Fishing Savage muzzleloader....

[wfjames22]

Does anyone else around here shoot one of these with smokeless powder? I bought one recently and while I love the fact that I dont have to clean it (as much as a normal one), I am having trouble getting it to shoot well. The best group that I have been able to get with it is right at 2" at 100 yds (which I did today and didnt have more loads ready to verify). I have tried multiple charge weights of 2 different powders (AA5744 & VV120) and multiple bullet/sabot combinations. Groups have been running around 3"-5" at 100yds (5 shots). I might be happy with these results with a standard muzzleloader, but this is not supposed to be your average muzzleloader. I have read a lot of info on the web, most of it praising the accuracy of these guns and stating that 1" or smaller groups at 100yds were typical.

Anybody else have any experience with one of these rigs and care to share some advice and what your results have been? I am looking to quit banging my head and just accept that this is a 2 MOA rig and that is all it will really do, if that is what the consensus is.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

i don't have one, but how does it shoot with the black powder through it?

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

this guy tried it.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=150626&Number=1655699#top

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

they say it could use either, perhaps that guy miscalculated or mixed up the charges?

wfjames, can you use both?
did you try both?

 

[wfjames22]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

Yeah, I could use black powder or substitutes, but that defeats the purposes of using smokeless (cleaner burning/higher velocities/no smoke). I am getting about 2200fps with 250gr bullets, which is about 500-600fps faster than with Triple 7.

 

[Ghogs Nightmare]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

Have you tried switching primers up at all? I found that made a difference in mine, I'd have go look at what i have to tell you which ones specifically.
.
**notice** this was in my Encore though not a savage.

 

[wfjames22]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

Havent switched primers yet, right now I am using Winchesters.

 

[geargrinder]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

Here's a link that describes some preferred Savage ML loads.

Savage ML Preferred loads

If I remember correctly, the Savage can be pretty picky on bullets and Sabots, but most find success with Barnes Originals and MMP sabots.

 

[Guest]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

This will be my second year with a Savage smokeless, and I couldn't be more pleased with how it shoots.

I weigh all of my charges and I developed my loads the same way I develop rifle loads.

I have found this forum to be the most helpful and informative with regards to the Savage.
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=smokeless

 

[jrhammons]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

Frank...have you checked the nut behind the rifle. Its possibly a little loose!

seriously though I have four friends shooting these and they are shootin 1" or better. Let me see what they are doing with theirs and I will get back to you.

I know this is a stupid question but I have been guilty of it before are all the screws tightened for bases and rings? Also check the ring screw lengths as one might be to long and making it spread a little. I have had that happen as well

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

Went the whole route with the 10ML and smokeless, including developing loads with Ramshot rifle powders. We ended up referring to the 10ML as 'Fist of God'.

On the whole, it was a highly successful experience, but with time, removing the breech plug for cleaning began to reveal some very odd corrosion/erosion in the sidewalls of the chamber area. We elected to retire the rifle, since it had some overtones of a safety issue.

Recent development of the Savage 220F 20ga rifle has brought sabots into the .7moa accuracy range, 200yd effective range in a bolt gun with a 2rd detachable magazine. This is apparently being done with Federal and Remington factory sabot loads.

In such a light, I see little to be gained from using the 10ML as a deer gun these days. Great accuracy and distance, combined with two follow-up shots, tend to leave the 10ML somewhere back in a distant second place.

Greg

 

[Handloader]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

Here you go... http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi
I use <span style="text-decoration: line-through">67</span>58g N120 with a 300g Barnes Original Spitzer in an MMP sabot (black). LET THE BARREL COOL BETWEEN SHOTS that is the most important thing! If you load the powder and sabot when the barrel is still hot, the sabot cup will become warm and malleable.
I get about 1.25 inches at 100yards. That said…they are three round groups which mean absolutely nothing according to this site. I use Win 209 primers. Gun was stock, but I have now bedded it. I have taken a few deer with it, but both have been less than 15yards (why take a long shot if you do not have too!).

As far as the MLII belonging to an older (“distant”) era, in Ohio, there is a muzzle loading only season for deer. This is both for an early and late season hunt, when one can not use a shotgun. That said, as for the Savage 220F, it is a rifle (fixed barrel, that is rifled, with a bolt action, and a magazine), built on the Savage 110 action, that happens to shoot shotgun sabots.

 

[Neo]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

Are you using a constant bullet seating pressure. I use a bathroom scale right @ 40 Lbs Hornady 250 Gr. SST w/MMP black sabots 44 Grs. IMR SR4759 and CCI std 209 primers. 5 shot 3/4" groups are the norm if I do my part. I'll be working up a load for the 300 Gr. SST in the next few weeks.

 

[wfjames22]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

Hey Rob, damn good to hear from you! I put the base on with loctite and properly torqued all of the screws with a torque wrench. I was shooting 500yd groups on steel that averaged about 3" with my 223 bolt gun at the same range session, so I think my technique is satisfactory. I am going to take the scope mounts and rings off and redo them, just to be safe. Let me know what your buddies are shooting in theirs when you get a chance.

I started off with 42-44gr of AA5744, 275gr Barnes XBP's and MMP HPH12 sabots and the groups were even worse (like 12" @ 100yds!!). I then tried Hornady .451 250gr XTP's with the short MMP sabots (supposedly the goto load) and still got 3-5" groups. I just tried VV110 yesterday (none of these powders are easy to get in the area) and is shows more promise. With 42gr of VV110, Hornady 250gr XTP's and MMP short black sabots I got that 2" 3 shot group, which still sucks if you ask me.

I have been approaching this just like working up a load in any rifle, but it is a real PITA to measure (weigh) powder at my improvised ranges. So I have been dropping/trickling loads at home and taking them with me in pill bottles to the range.

I have not gone to the extreme of using a scale to get consistant seating pressure, but I am paying attention to it and trying to do it with the same amt of pressure each time.

Greg-If I could use anything besides a muzzleloader on this KS trip or during our muzzleloader seasons in TN, I would do it. Believe me!

If I cannot get it figured out soon, I am going to be up shizzle creek w/o a paddle, since KS muzzleloader season opens 3 weeks from today and all this work stuff is getting in the way of my range time.

Thanks everyone for the help and keep it coming,
Frank

 

[Neo]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

I would try using a scale might not help but one more thing to take out of the equation.

 

[wfjames22]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

I might give it a try, but it is going to be a real PITA to carry bathroom scales deer hunting with me!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

The tip my guru taught me was to place the butt of the rifle over my instep when I gave the projectile the final push home. It gives you a better 'feel' for the ramming force. Messin' with scales is just a distraction, leave the scales home.

 

[wfjames22]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

I have been resting it on the top of my foot everytime I seat the bullet. I feel like I can replicate the force applied pretty well, maybe I will check it on a scale.

 

[AQC440]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

I know this is a different creature, but a friend had a TC Encore that couldn't keep the bullets on a 18"x18" piece of plywood at 100 yds.. After watching and approving his technique, I took the rifle from him and cleaned (brushed) all manners of plastic from the barrel, left behind by the sabots. Super clean barrel and 20 less grains of 777 and bingo... 1.5" muzzle loader!

 

[vinconco]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

Check out this site, some good info.

http://randywakeman.com/savage10MLloaddata.htm

Also, here is some blow up pics and a good story behind it.

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert2.html

 

[rc2125]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

Ditto on the foot, til it feels the same. I use the standard muzzleloading 3-pellet speed loaders for my smokeless reloads. First in, a couple primers, then bullet/sabot, then a slice of cotton, then the measured smokeless powder. Open the lid, dump powder down the tube, shake the bullet/sabot out, seat it, then prime (extra one, just in case of a fumble). Keep several little bottles of pre-measured powder charges in the truck, in case I need to assemble more pre-loads in the field.
I got two ML II's, earlier one has a tighter bore, newer one is normal. Had pretty good luck running the barnes TMZ 250 combos ,VV N110, 41gr the past few seasons. Tinkered with some 290's/VVN120 with better accuracy, plan to make the switch to them this season. Avg around 1.5" @ 100 w/250's, tightens up if slowed down, sabots are the weak link.
Gotta wait a long time cooling between shots, some folks even utilize fancy barrel cooling gadgets. I don't even consider trying to shoot these if it's warmer than 60F. If the retrieved sabots look melted and are all gobbed/rolled up, barrel was too warm when shot. Gotta examine the fired sabots.
Lots and lots of different info out there. Dougs message board @ proboards is a great place for info.

 

[spaniel]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RC2125</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Gotta wait a long time cooling between shots, some folks even utilize fancy barrel cooling gadgets. I don't even consider trying to shoot these if it's warmer than 60F.
</div></div>

No need to be fancy. I was shooting my custom Savage ML (converted it from a .243win) last weekend, it was 85F. I have a 26" aluminum rod just small enough to fit in the bore (it is a 45cal). Less than 5min between shots, with that rod it was cooling faster than my Sendero 300WM I was swapping back and forth to. I simply laid the cooling rod on a towel in the shade while I loaded and shot.

On Doug's board there are links to those that cell screw top lab vials perfect for pre-measured powder charges. I carry mine in a shotgun shell holder on the stock.

I use a duplexed powder load (AA5744 and H322) to get 2770 fps with a 200gr Shockwave.

 

[reeljob]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

Shooting under an 1" with mine. Make sure you are using High pressure Sabots preferbly MMP.I shoot CCI primers and 250 gr Hornady SST. I am not shooting a Savage preferred powder(H4198).I will never go back to Black powder or substitutes!!!

 

[spaniel]

Re: Savage muzzleloader....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: reeljob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooting under an 1" with mine. Make sure you are using High pressure Sabots preferbly MMP.I shoot CCI primers and 250 gr Hornady SST. I am not shooting a Savage preferred powder(H4198).I will never go back to Black powder or substitutes!!! </div></div>

Proper sabots are a must. I use the light blue Harvestors .45-.40s. I've only shot one 3-shot group with mine so far but it was .73", moving to 300 yds next weekend. This should be a 400-500yd deer gun in the right hands. No slug gun is going to match the ballistics. You can get 3000fps out of a .45 with 200gr bullets, if you know what you are doing.