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Rifle Scopes Schmidt & Bender "implosion"?
- Thread starter dms416
- Start date
Because he is not wrong. He is entitled to his opinion and opinions can't be wrong. Frank is absolutely 100% correct in his opinions. Therefore It is impossible for me to prove him wrong.
My take on this subject is that the "new hot thing" always gets the majority of the attention around here (naturally). S&B just hasn't had a new product release (at a viable price point) in a couple of years.
The S&B 3-20x scope is a great piece of kit in my opinion, and I'm running one on my rifle. Save for concerns I've read about some limited quality control issues on their turrets, I'm very happy with the MTC turrets. I like the simplicity and functionality of the design: having a harder click on every tenth click makes it really easy to dial up, say, 6 mils without ever looking at the turret. The zero stop is nice, as is the pop-up piece on the top of the turret to indicate that you're on the second revolution. Obviously the glass is top notch. But, something that doesn't seem to get a whole lot of attention in this debate is the reticle choices. I'm a big fan of the H2CMR reticle, and I haven't found a truly comparable reticle with the other manufacturers.
So, I don't think S&B has necessarily fallen out of favor, it's just that they haven't had the "new hot thing" in a couple of years now (since the introduction of the 3-20x scope). Sure, they released a 3-27x scope, but that optic is well out of the price range that most of us would ever consider paying, and doesn't get much attention because of it. As such, there isn't a whole lot to talk about on the S&B front that hasn't already been talked about. But, that doesn't mean that their product is necessarily sub-par. I'm still very happy with my scope.
It seems that the Beast is the talk of the forums right now, since it was the new hot thing from another prominent manufacturer. But, if you give it a couple of years to mature as a product, the Beast probably won't get as much forum attention, either (even though I hear that it is also a fine scope).
The S&B 3-20x scope is a great piece of kit in my opinion, and I'm running one on my rifle. Save for concerns I've read about some limited quality control issues on their turrets, I'm very happy with the MTC turrets. I like the simplicity and functionality of the design: having a harder click on every tenth click makes it really easy to dial up, say, 6 mils without ever looking at the turret. The zero stop is nice, as is the pop-up piece on the top of the turret to indicate that you're on the second revolution. Obviously the glass is top notch. But, something that doesn't seem to get a whole lot of attention in this debate is the reticle choices. I'm a big fan of the H2CMR reticle, and I haven't found a truly comparable reticle with the other manufacturers.
So, I don't think S&B has necessarily fallen out of favor, it's just that they haven't had the "new hot thing" in a couple of years now (since the introduction of the 3-20x scope). Sure, they released a 3-27x scope, but that optic is well out of the price range that most of us would ever consider paying, and doesn't get much attention because of it. As such, there isn't a whole lot to talk about on the S&B front that hasn't already been talked about. But, that doesn't mean that their product is necessarily sub-par. I'm still very happy with my scope.
It seems that the Beast is the talk of the forums right now, since it was the new hot thing from another prominent manufacturer. But, if you give it a couple of years to mature as a product, the Beast probably won't get as much forum attention, either (even though I hear that it is also a fine scope).
That's not what is being said. What is being stated is that S&B has been the standard in which other high end optics have been judged by. If you can't compare or beat the biggest dog on the block, how can you call yourself top tier?!
There are a lot of great scopes out there. In no particular order:
1) S&B
2) Nightforce
3) Bushnell line (XRS, ERS, HDMR)
4) Vortex Razor
5) Zeiss Hensoldt
etc.... etc....
That is just the tip of the ice berg. But there are a few I wouldn't even consider putting on a list unless it was for pellet guns and air soft.....
I assume the air gun scope would be the IOR. This is what I would take away from the endless diatribe against them. As though other top end scopes have been flawless.... Sounds like the Premier Heritage hating. A RollsRoyce can malfunction as will a Ford. Is the Ford trash? No. Does the manufacturer fix it? Yes. If the Ford cost the same as the Rolls and broke more often then I understand the criticism. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't S&B have a limited factory warranty? Dosen't sound like a lot of confidence. For reference I own a Zeiss Victory 6-24x56 FL T. Hopefully it's not on the pellet gun list.
This is the point for the mentally challenged...
We have noted that for years the S&B 5-25x was the Gold Standard, and since that time most companies are working to meet or exceed that challenge. A big part of the challenge is not just glass but reliability.
Because the S&B has been on the market for many years, everyone has had the opportunity to catch up if they choose to do so.
While any optic can break and most do at some point, we are not talking about a single instance of success or failure, but the history of the scope and company in context. That history is important as we are talking real money here.
For me personally, I have been doing this longer than most. This site started in 2000, and in 2001, I started my journey by spending 10 days working at the USO factory for nothing more than the education of it. Since that time, I have traveled to other scope factories both here and abroad. I have a long memory or this stuff as the conversation today is nothing new from 10 years ago.
I've used most, broke almost all, and call it like I see it. I am happy to change my mind on something, but I don't do it without being shown the optic in question can perform.
None of my personal opinions were formed in a vacuum... if I have not put my hand on it, I generally don't comment. You'd be hard pressed to find something I have not touched at some point.
If you want to pull something out of context, and break it down to single sentence out of 100+ sentences, you're a fucking idiot plain and simple. Nothing is that simple. It's not so easy as to boil it down it to one line... "X" is the only one worth owning... okay Ramjet. Nobody said that, nobody implied that, and if you can find a picture or video of me just using, or praising one scope alone, post or link me.
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And yet, that is the exact way many of us have done things through the years and yet, our opinions differ from yours. There are many great shooters out there who experienced other aspects. They cannot just be rejected as retards. One single person's opinions cannot contain the whole truth. Sometimes history has showed us that not even a majority of opinions is a warranty for truth.
Mechanical "perfection" without optical quality is worth shit to me as long as there are alternatives who offer "both". Like you, I have seen Schmidts brake and I have seen Nightforce brake, just to name two of your favorite brands. They have problems like many other brands.
Frank,
I spoke to Val today briefly. (Post SHOT show he is very busy)
Please give Val a call at Valdada. He wants very much to meet you in person and is in favor of any of the scopes being tested as long as I am present to take part in the test. The person shooting certainly plays into the results. From what I can tell Frank shoots a little better than I do so this isn't about his skill. No company in their right mind would let an individual evaluate their products unsupervised when that person has shown a clear prejudice against their products. My schedule is pretty flexible on when we do the test and you can grab any 1-3 scopes you want out of the inventory at Val's place which I guess isn't to far from where you live or I can bring 3 new unmounted units with me of your choosing. I will PM you the contact information. I hope this will put us on the road to achieving some clarity on the questions that have been raised.
Store phone is: 303 979 4578. I Pm'd you his cell, not sure if it went through.
I spoke to Val today briefly. (Post SHOT show he is very busy)
Please give Val a call at Valdada. He wants very much to meet you in person and is in favor of any of the scopes being tested as long as I am present to take part in the test. The person shooting certainly plays into the results. From what I can tell Frank shoots a little better than I do so this isn't about his skill. No company in their right mind would let an individual evaluate their products unsupervised when that person has shown a clear prejudice against their products. My schedule is pretty flexible on when we do the test and you can grab any 1-3 scopes you want out of the inventory at Val's place which I guess isn't to far from where you live or I can bring 3 new unmounted units with me of your choosing. I will PM you the contact information. I hope this will put us on the road to achieving some clarity on the questions that have been raised.
Store phone is: 303 979 4578. I Pm'd you his cell, not sure if it went through.
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I have always said,
Ownership does not equal competence ... just because you owned a brand, and it worked for you, doesn't make you an authority.
History shows, NF, S&B break far less than most... there is a paper trail here, so, one off experiences can be dismissed. I don't shoot it over a weekend and call it good. When I test things I have a model and formula that is proven to demonstrate if there is an issue. Most "owners" never do this... just read any post on about someone and their ballistic program. We always ask if you checked and calibrated their scope and the answer is always NO... that speaks volumes to ownership. When the Gen 1 IOR came out, they were dying across the board at 200 rounds. If you never shot that many rounds through it, or never it checked it after the first day, how would you know if it was right or not.
My prejudice has a reason, that reason is well documented, I did not form my opinion out of thin air.
Last time I checked, companies were not calling you for your opinion on this matter, or any other. (shortcut)
Ownership does not equal competence ... just because you owned a brand, and it worked for you, doesn't make you an authority.
History shows, NF, S&B break far less than most... there is a paper trail here, so, one off experiences can be dismissed. I don't shoot it over a weekend and call it good. When I test things I have a model and formula that is proven to demonstrate if there is an issue. Most "owners" never do this... just read any post on about someone and their ballistic program. We always ask if you checked and calibrated their scope and the answer is always NO... that speaks volumes to ownership. When the Gen 1 IOR came out, they were dying across the board at 200 rounds. If you never shot that many rounds through it, or never it checked it after the first day, how would you know if it was right or not.
My prejudice has a reason, that reason is well documented, I did not form my opinion out of thin air.
Last time I checked, companies were not calling you for your opinion on this matter, or any other. (shortcut)
Then want is your formula for testing?? What happens if the IOR passes it? Aside from physical abuse if it is clear and tracks as designed then what else do you do? Scopes have been offered for evaluation , yet your response sounds less than enthuastic.
Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not: the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
Part of the equation is when you talk to the manufacturer.
if they can address the issues, and they point out, "well we changed, A, B, C, and found that our failures were, located here so we changed it" ...
Read my post about Tangent Theta, they openly and without prompting broke down, step by step, everything they addressed, and what they changed. They did not blow smoke, they said, We changed A, B, C... that tells the tale just as much as checking one scope. Which honestly one scope is much too small a sample, but we work with what we can. Your interview with the company is just as important as you going out and shooting something.
If you pay any attention you see I state up front that I put at least 1000 rounds through stuff before I report on it. Each time I got to the range I block a portion of it to test, and retest these scopes. It's one of the reasons why, you'll see the same scope on 3 different rifles. I repeat the process from mounting to zero multiple times. I have had people send me a product and expect me to report on it the follow the weekend. When they push for something like that, I return it and never say a word, cause it's not how I operate.
if they can address the issues, and they point out, "well we changed, A, B, C, and found that our failures were, located here so we changed it" ...
Read my post about Tangent Theta, they openly and without prompting broke down, step by step, everything they addressed, and what they changed. They did not blow smoke, they said, We changed A, B, C... that tells the tale just as much as checking one scope. Which honestly one scope is much too small a sample, but we work with what we can. Your interview with the company is just as important as you going out and shooting something.
If you pay any attention you see I state up front that I put at least 1000 rounds through stuff before I report on it. Each time I got to the range I block a portion of it to test, and retest these scopes. It's one of the reasons why, you'll see the same scope on 3 different rifles. I repeat the process from mounting to zero multiple times. I have had people send me a product and expect me to report on it the follow the weekend. When they push for something like that, I return it and never say a word, cause it's not how I operate.
You live an Hour from Denver, what part of TX is that... Val from IOR is in Littleton.
I will consider it around March, I have to see what their "conditions" are... if the idea is to shoot it once and call it great, then I have very little interest in that.
But once the weather breaks here,
I will consider it around March, I have to see what their "conditions" are... if the idea is to shoot it once and call it great, then I have very little interest in that.
But once the weather breaks here,
My bad, Paul has a range down around dallas I assumed that was where he was talking about. But I've always wanted to come to Colorado, Nothing like smokin' a little hootch and gettin' a new formula all in the same trip!
Schmidt & Bender "implosion"?
Well now if Frank needs to be "supervised" in order to do this test. I think I need to be there to supervise the scope supervisors. Then it can be a real foot stompin good time.
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Well now if Frank needs to be "supervised" in order to do this test. I think I need to be there to supervise the scope supervisors. Then it can be a real foot stompin good time.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Inquiring minds want to know.
Wish I'd checked this thread before Tuesday night Bible study. I could have asked the guy from 20th Group and the guy from 5th Group what scopes they use, and the average of 20 and 5 is 12.5, which is bigger than 10, so that would outvote one guy in 10th Group. Then they would have made me do an hour of log PT followed by a thousand pushups, while telling me not to believe online fanbois who say "Special Forces use [insert brand] scope, which I like too, so it must be just as good as [insert brand]."
Also I could have asked the SOTIC (if that's what they still call it) instructor I know. He's too far away to make me do PT, but he probably would have cautioned me that military procurement, even in SF, doesn't always come up with The Best. Could be that the non-SF first lieutenant put in charge of picking scopes for SF didn't know beans about scopes, and instead of consulting any actual SF, looked up what scopes the Navy SEALS use, and bought those. Sounds like something that would actually happen.
HA, I remember a Dr. Seuss cartoon where he was working in a factory but didn't trust his workers so he hired a "watcher" to watch his workers. Then he didn't trust his watchers so he hired a "Watch watcher" to watch the watchers watch the workers. Then he didn't trust the watch watchers.......you can see where this is going!
You know guys, I use to be on a bow hunting forum. We use to have the EXACT same arguments on there. The Hoyt is better, the Bowtech is better, the Mathews is better. It went on and on, most every day, most every week. The one thing that never changes whether you are talking to people on a forum or people in a bar, or people at church, different people are different. Some are more passionate and more outspoken about their differences, but in the end, we are and will always be different.
I'm a button pusher, once I see what ticks people off I just can't help it, I'm going to push that button, but know this. I respect everyone here, even you Night force guys.
Pushing people's buttons for your own enjoyment is disrespectful, you jackwaggon.
We are here to learn and exchange ideas, not got off on disrespecting others. Contribute to this thread somehow, any how. Just say your idea and your opinion and stop the bullshit by trying to change other peoples' opinions. Out of respect, I defer to the experts. And there are a lot of experts on this forum. Good luck with your IOR crusade.
Meanwhile, I would love to see this private range Frank has. I am sure only a select few have seen it. My range is public land, so it is not private. I am green with envy over here.
In six years of 6+ comps per year, averaging 30-45 shooters i have seen schmidts, nightforce, steiner, leupold, hensoldt, vortex, uso and bushnell. I have never once seen an IOR on any comp firing line, anywhere.
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It would be nice to have reps from the top tier scope manufacturers step in and offer their opinion as to why they feel their products are top notch. They're here, yet they're quiet.
Not to side track you guys from your pissing matches, but I have an actual question..
I'm planning on buying a uses s&b soon. Anyone have an exact date when they switched from the 30 year to 2 up warranty? The one I'm looking at was made 2 years ago about.
I'm planning on buying a uses s&b soon. Anyone have an exact date when they switched from the 30 year to 2 up warranty? The one I'm looking at was made 2 years ago about.
I don't know when the switch occurred, but mine also lists the two-year warranty in the manual. Personally, that's probably my single greatest gripe with S&B, and I think they're making a mistake with that warranty... I have a number of friends who would like a S&B, but won't buy one due to the short warranty period.
I agree 100%. Just got the S&B 3-20X MTC with MSR reticle. Having used it several times, I canceled my BEAST order from last March and picked up an S&B 5-25X MTC with MSR to have matching scopes. I'm thrilled and it will free up a BEAST for someone, if they ever materialize!
I think IOR is the only one being "called out". We've already determined that S&B is "not imploding" and NF is still coming out with the next big thing in the Beast.
I remember watching your test on the New then( Vortex Razor) It would be nice to see these IOR's be run through tests like that.
Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally[3][4] or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[5] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[6]"
Congratulations, Phil...you've just admitted to being a troll.
While this thread is our first (and likely last) interaction, I would like you to know that from your first posts here, I inferred that you would not be offering anything worth reading. You did not disappoint. You sir, have the distinct honor of being the very first member of my "ignore list".
"I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
I didn't "Start" the argument. I just enhanced it. I"m proud to be on your list, everybody needs to be on a list somewhere. Come to think of it, I'm on a few list.
1. Your List.
2. 20+ years Army retirees with a service connected injury
3. The proud IOR owners list.
4. The 95th Training Division Expert Marksman list.
5. The list as one of the first American soldiers to be invited to the french Commando school as an Rifle instructor.
6. The first male to win the great American purple hull pea cook off. ( three time champ)
Hell The lists goes on and on!
Yeh, a jack wagon, like a said: Urban Dictionary: jack wagon
But troll works also. I agree. Maybe we should do a poll what people really think? But that would derail this thread. Kudos to "notso" for his input. Excellent stuff.
I could think of some other choice words too, but it isn't worth it...I'm not here to shit all over the forum or its rules.
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