Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

U

untouchable13

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 26, 2008
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Ogden, Utah
#1
I had a guy tell me he was getting 1/4 MOA group sizes out of a AR-10 and I found that surprising since most of the custom rifle makers only guarantee 3/4 MOA out of their rifles. I know it hugely depends on the shooter, but is anyone for real getting 1/4 MOA out of their gas gun? Or is that just BS.

Just to be clear my understanding of a true group is a 5 shot group.

Thoughts?
 
#2
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Highly unlikely. I would put $50 to his $10 right now that he could not shoot one 5 shot out of 10 groups shot in progression.

As long as his name isn't Frank or Jacob.
smile.gif
 
#4
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I vote BS

Was he pitching a rifle to you??? Not saying that a 1/4 moa is impossible from a semi, just no way I believe its happening enough to sell it as your average group even with a pro behind the glass.
 
#5
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I'm with Mechanic on this.

The claim the guy is making sounds like a bullshit claim to me, and not because I can't do it. GAP and other precision rifle manufacturers place 1/2-3/4 MOA guarantee on their rifles but that also depends on the shooter.
 
#6
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I do belive it can be done. I have seen an rra 308 that was a .5 always and delivered several .3-.4 5 shot groups. I think there are 1 or 2 ar10s that come with a .5 or better 5 shot group ?
 
#7
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

If a place like GAP can guarantee 1/2 MOA, then I see no reason why the occasional rifle/shooter can't pull off a 1/4 MOA group now and again.

To say that the rifle is a 1/4 MOA shooter is not hard to believe. To say that a shooter can <span style="font-weight: bold">consistently</span> achieve the rifles potential is another story.
 
#8
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Well just by the way the dude was talking I'm quite certain he was bullshitting. It was just at sportsman's warehouse for one thing and he was just talking to the counter clerk about his new AR build. That's I chimed in and said I just finished my LR-208 Build and was very pleased with it Shooting .6 MOA. Thats when he said he would easily get .25 MOA with his build. I am not the argumentative kind, so I just blew him off as a BS'R. In retrospect I should have inquired about his build details because if he is shooting what hes claiming that would be news to me!
 
#9
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

If it was me i would have called him out on it asked him to give every detail. Not to mention quiz him on some of the crucial things involved.
 
#12
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: untouchable13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a guy tell me he was getting 1/4 MOA group sizes out of a AR-10 and I found that surprising since most of the custom rifle makers only guarantee 3/4 MOA out of their rifles. I know it hugely depends on the shooter, but is anyone for real getting 1/4 MOA out of their gas gun? Or is that just BS.

Just to be clear my understanding of a true group is a 5 shot group.

Thoughts? </div></div>

I've never met ANYONE that will boldly say that they can hold 1/4 MOA consistently enough on a gas gun. Never.

I'm sure the gun is good for it but what is the gun gonna do? Fire by itself?
laugh.gif
 
#13
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I've shot a few groups with my Noveske that were pretty close to 1/4 before, probably a little over, but definitely under half. Obviously I can't do it every time, and certainly not group after group in a row (most likely luck anyways) but its good for .5-.6 most of the time with Black Hills.
 
#14
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Exemer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it was me i would have called him out on it asked him to give every detail. Not to mention quiz him on some of the crucial things involved. </div></div>

You will NEVER encounter that guy...Because you ARE that guy!!
smile.gif


Why would you ever want to encourage an idiot like that?
 
#15
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I have no doubt one hole groups, barely bigger than the diameter of the first hole vacated, are possible with a semi. I've shot a few like that. The AR design promotes consistent control of the rifle through recoil, so I'd suspect small groups would actually be easier to obtain with it than with a traditionally stocked bolt gun, unless the shooter had developed motor memory to the molecular level. This has been my experience. I also believe that when the shooter, gun, and ground relationship is consistent, a shooter can take most any rifle out there, and if it's not broken, put all of his shots right-in-there.
 
#16
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Well depending if he is reloading and using a shooting sled or other platform to take out the human element I can the possibility. Also did he say he was shooting that or the gun was shooting that lol. The way he said it could mean alot kinda like a guy I knew when I was in the military, he'd tell people that he had a cock that touched his ankle,lay out money, people would throw in on it and he would raise up his pant leg and show the tattoo of a rooster on his ankle lol.
 
#17
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebra308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well depending if he is reloading and using a shooting sled or other platform to take out the human element I can the possibility. Also did he say he was shooting that or the gun was shooting that lol. The way he said it could mean alot kinda like a guy I knew when I was in the military, he'd tell people that he had a cock that touched his ankle,lay out money, people would throw in on it and he would raise up his pant leg and show the tattoo of a rooster on his ankle lol. </div></div>

Your statement about the sled is interesting. Seems folks buy em to get shot to shot consistency. Recoil, however, sort of blows the concept from fruition. That's to say, although the sled is a good rest, consistent control from trigger pull until the bullet has cleared the bore is not so easily realized . With the shooter honoring the 5 factors of a steady position: elbows, non-firing hand, stockweld, butt-to-shoulder, and grip, making relationships consistent, from a prone sandbag position, better results are assured.
 
#18
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Glad to see this post cause this has been driving me crazy! I have been working up reloads for a AR-10, and I feel I am struggling. Occasional 0.75MOA 5 shot group but looking at EVERY group fired...the majority are 1-1.5 MOA. It just seems harder for me anyway to get consistent groups with an AR, comparing to a bolt gun.
So when guys are on here talking about thier AR platforms shooting lets say 0.5MOA... How many 5 shot groups out of say 20 groups are 0.5MOA? All of them or the best group of the day?
 
#19
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Well Sterling you and I have seen eye to eye on a few things on posts and it dont hurt I'm a native Kentuckian lol.
Since I have never used a sled or other " shooting aid " of that genre',except for a rear mono pod or rear bag, I wonder what would happen if he had a good break on that thing and or had weight piled on the sled or bench, how much would movement would it reduce? Would it provide more axial recoil into the shooters shoulder without muzzle rise? I feel some mythbusting or experimentation coming round lol.
 
#20
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dog Doc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Glad to see this post cause this has been driving me crazy! I have been working up reloads for a AR-10, and I feel I am struggling. Occasional 0.75MOA 5 shot group but looking at EVERY group fired...the majority are 1-1.5 MOA. It just seems harder for me anyway to get consistent groups with an AR, comparing to a bolt gun.
So when guys are on here talking about thier AR platforms shooting lets say 0.5MOA... How many 5 shot groups out of say 20 groups are 0.5MOA? All of them or the best group of the day? </div></div>


I would say my Noveske will shoot around 1/2 80% of the time or so. Its a very precise rifle. Surprised the crap out of me when I first started shooting it. My best accuracy has been with Black Hills 77gr match. PRVI 75gr does surprisingly well too, at about 1 MOA or less, its not bad for ammo that reasonably priced.
 
#21
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: untouchable13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Just to be clear my understanding of a true group is a 5 shot group.

Thoughts? </div></div>

I think this is part of the issue when we talk about group size. For some people, what a rifle will shoot is the best 3-shot group they have ever shot. To some, it is the best group they typically see in a day. To some, it is an average. A lot of people talk about 5 shot groups, some use 3 shot groups.

I was talking to a friend who said he has a Rock River AR-15 that "shoots quarter MOA." I called BS on him and he told me, "I have the group to prove it." So basically, he shot 1/4 MOA once, 3 shots, and to him that is what the gun shoots. (to me, I would day that is what the gun shot once) I am more of an "average for 5-shot groups" kind of guy. Most people don't bother to compile averages. They might look for the smallest group they see on a given day and assume that they pulled the other shots and that small group represents what the gun can do. And most of us have selective memory about group size.

When two people talk about group size, they rarely speak in the same language. If you show me a 5 X 5, I can look at it and know what is typical for the gun and shooter.

And BTW, I have heard an old adage "3 shot groups is the gun, 5 shot groups is the shooter." BS. The same shooter is pulling the trigger on the 3 shot group as the 5 shot group. On average, a 3 shot group will be smaller than a 5 shot group. It is a statistical fact.
 
#22
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Shooting a 0.25 MOA group is not easy. That indicates the centerpoints of five .308 holes are no farther apart than well under (~80%) the diameter of a single bullet hole. In other words, pretty much a single ragged hole. Of course there are those that can, and do, accomplish that feat. Most average shooters (in which category I place myself) can't.

I recently took a new GAP Crusader out to the range for the first time. This weapon is advertised with a 3/8 MOA (0.375 MOA) guarantee. After putting a number of rounds through it, I have no doubt it can do that. But not in my hands (yet). I shot 4x5-shot groups with CorBon 155 gr Scenars, FGMM 168s, FGMM 175s, and Applied Ballistics Tactical 175s. Of the 16 total 5-shot groups, I had five that were in the 0.4 to 0.6 MOA range. The rest were in the 0.6 to 0.9 MOA range, with the average of the four different ammo's coming in right at 0.75 MOA. This is pretty much the best I have ever done and I absolutely love this rifle. Most of the larger groups were due to a single pulled shot and the majority of the other 4 shots in the larger groups were a single ragged hole. So I do not doubt for a second that the weapon is capable of the level of precision as stated, whereas my shooting skills are not.

So if someone is claiming to shoot 1/4 MOA, sure it's possible, but it requires a lot of skill to do that consistently, so you probably want to take a claim like the one you mentioned with a grain of salt. I don't worry too much about other people's claims. It's not going to change what I can do one way or the other, so I'd rather focus on how I can improve my own shooting than trying to verify or disprove someone else's claims.
 
#23
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I'm raising the BS flag on this as well... Not even the H&K PSG-1 is capable of such a thing and that is one of the most accurate semi platforms out there. Like mentioned above, have to be a ragged hole of 5, hell even 3!
 
#24
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

So for you guys with alot of experience that shoot really good groups, say 0.5MOA. When you are shooting a series of multiple rounds, what would your worst group of the day be?
I am asking this only to judge how inconsistent I am as a shooter! I may see a 0.75" 5 shot group, but I sure see alot of 1.5" 5 shot groups too(pretty much all the rest of them)!!
 
#25
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

There was a Baer .308 AR type for sale on here the other that had two factory 5 shot groups that were under .25 I am sure. That was just last week so look it up if you are interested. Both just looked like a 30 cal oval hole. I some rifles will do it in .223 and 204. My KAC SR25EM will not come close. I think Frank has a new GAP that he said is a shooter, not sure of the groups, but I think they would be near .25 for him to really be impressed. So, it can be done.
RTH
 
#26
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

295yards, DPMS 308LR, stock barrel, RR trigger, off bipod & fist for rear support - during match

Looks like one was a flyer
smile.gif


HPIM1298.jpg


No i don't shoot like that often, sometimes the dope behind the rifle can shoot to the rifles potential
 
#27
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Possible Yes, likely No.

I managed to pull off a group right around the .5moa mark with an almost stock dpms in 6.5creedmoor. I'm sure there was a warm up group before that one. May try it again some day but I'm not a fan of shooting groups.
65dpms100.jpg
140gr amax loaded to factory box recipe.
 
#30
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Tommy Boy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why do they put a guarantee on a box? Hmm, very interesting.

Ted: I'm listening.

Tommy Boy: Here's how I see it. A guy puts a guarantee on the box 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside.

Ted: Yeah, makes a man feel good.

Tommy Boy: 'Course it does. Ya think if you leave that box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter.

Ted: What's your point?

Tommy Boy: The point is, how do you know the Guarantee Fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times.

Ted: But why do they put a guarantee on the box then?

Tommy Boy: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of crap. That's all it is. Hey, if you want me to take some of that and put in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for right now, for your sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality item from me.
 
#31
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Kinda reminds me of Felipe aka Savage110 (and others). 1/4 MOA all day until the day they acutally had to shoot a group.
 
#32
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

So to continue on this topic in regard to reloading... How do you know when you have found the right load? I have been loading 15 rounds total for a particular charge weight, then shoot 3 5 shot groups. So if one of the 3 groups give me a 0.5" group or better, should I consider that a good charge for my rifle?
This thread has really opened my eyes to the fact that a good group is one thing, and doing it all day long is another. Now I feel that I passed up alot of potentially good powder charge/ bullet combinations with my semi-autos!!
 
#33
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zebra308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Well Sterling you and I have seen eye to eye on a few things on posts and it dont hurt I'm a native Kentuckian lol.
Since I have never used a sled or other " shooting aid " of that genre',except for a rear mono pod or rear bag, I wonder what would happen if he had a good break on that thing and or had weight piled on the sled or bench, how much would movement would it reduce? Would it provide more axial recoil into the shooters shoulder without muzzle rise? I feel some mythbusting or experimentation coming round lol. </div></div>

I get the best results when I relax into the loop sling. I can feel when I've built the position to perfection while in the sling; and, I can maintain consistent control while in the sling, from the time I pull the trigger until recoil has ceased. With a sled I cannot confirm consistency in the rifle's relationship to the sled from shot to shot, or that the sled is promoting a consistent recoil effect.
 
#34
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JFComfort</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kinda reminds me of Felipe aka Savage110 (and others). 1/4 MOA all day until the day they acutally had to shoot a group. </div></div>

Now thats some funny shit!

1, 5 shot group of out 10 only has to be 1/4 MOA. I'm gonna give it a try next week, but I'll be shooting a .223 and then a Grendel to see if i can do it. I'd put up money to see if someone could do it with an AR10.

Even if one does get one 1/4 MOA group, its definitely not consistant and most(99% of us) aren't capable of shooting small groups like that all day every day.
 
#35
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I would consider a 1/4 moa group with an AR-10 type rifle very believable IF the shooter is taking his best 3 shot group of the day.

I fired 3 consecutive 3 shot groups with a new RRA LAR 8 that averaged in the .3s. One of the groups was very close to 1/4 moa but that doesn't make it a 1/4 minute rifle.

If I was shooting 5 shot groups I don't think the numbers would have looked nearly as good!

Many highly skilled shooters say that the gas guns are harder to shoot than bolt guns but in my "ignorance is bliss" state of mind I usually group about the same with my LAR8s and TRGs.

My guess is that the 1/4 moa shooter in question pulled it off once but makes it sound routine.
 
#36
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

1/4 MOA (@ 110 yds)

06-15-11SmallGroup1.jpg


Or 1/2 MOA

06-15-11AllGroups1.jpg


You be the judge.... same target. This is a Rorschach test for how one views groups. Most memories only remember the group happening in the middle or at least remember it happening a lot more than it did.
 
#37
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Lowlight on here reported 1/4" groups out of the box with the GAP-10; with factory ammo last spring. I believe it was chambered in 260 Rem. Knowing how GAP's are made with those great Bartlein barrels it's not a real surprise. Obviously, as has been stated here, the shooter is the biggest coefficient of accuracy.
 
#38
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

It can be done. Frank shot a 1/4 group with his GAP10. Its all about the driver and the rifle. The GAP10 is more than capable. I have printed some great groups but I dont normally shoot for groups. I am more of a rounds on steel at distance. If I hit center mass I am happy.
 
#39
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I have shot a .25 group once or twice but that was more of an accident then actually trying to get a group that small.

I try for as best a shot that I can do but I have suprised my self with that. I again have only done that once or twice over the few years I have shot from all my semi autos. normally its twice the size or larger LOL
 
#40
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Most gas guns will be .5" shooters. Some will hit sub .5", but rarely will one hit .25", and even more rarely will a shooter be able to do that, and do it consistently.

As many have pointed out, there are not really any rifles made with a .25" spec out there, the best I have always seen seems to be .5". Gas guns just don't have the tight tolerances to be reliable to deliver .25" performance with factory ammo in most cases. Sure one can handload some pet loads and change some of the factors in their favor a bit, but even then, in gas guns if you don't do a full size on the brass you trade off on reliability when it comes to cycling.

Gas guns were not designed to shoot super tight precision groups, they were designed and adopted to take enemy down at range with center mass hits. This is why the role of the M110 SASS in the US Army is primarily a defensive sniper rifle and counter sniper rifle system. It is designed to be deployed alongside a rifle platoon to enhance their lethality, and help protect against enemy sniper threats. This is why the request that it looks similar to the M16 family was mandated during the trials, and the Knights SR25 selected for further development. Point is, if you want a 1/4 grouping rifle, look at a bolt gun, not at a gas gun, because you will only end up with disappointment... and the guy only got lucky if he got a 1/4 group. I mean I have gotten lucky and had one hole groups before during a breezy day, but I know damn well that it had everything to do with being lucky as all hell...
 
#41
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I have shot a 1/4" 5 shot group out of my POF - once. And it was fairly windy that day (read 'lucky group'). There are days when I leave the range scratching my head wondering what I did wrong. I think I'd have to shoot a lot more with a lot better technique to even call this rifle a 1/2" rifle. Just doesn't happen, and when I can keep 90% of my groups at or under MOA I am completely happy. Someday am gonna break down and take a good class to see if I can get more consistent.
 
#43
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I'm with C-bass on this one. My guess is that if he has a GAP, Les Baer, or similar rifle that comes with a half inch guarantee, he will on occasion shoot a quarter inch group.

I'll bet $100 that he can't shoot 5 out of 5 consecutive 5 shot quarter inch groups on demand though. If I lost that bet, it would be worth the $100 to see someone do it though.
 
#44
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat M</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 295yards, DPMS 308LR, stock barrel, RR trigger, off bipod & fist for rear support - during match

Looks like one was a flyer
smile.gif


HPIM1298.jpg


No i don't shoot like that often, sometimes the dope behind the rifle can shoot to the rifles potential



</div></div>

For the brief time that I had my LMT MWS I could shoot "one shot. one hole groups, all day long!"

Seriously though my "groups" looked exactly like that, it would be a neat little cluster and then I would shank one outta my arse either high left or high right, exactly like the picture above.

For a consistently repeatable 1/4" guarantee to be true (consistantly repeatable) in my opinion there are to many variables involved.

With GAP's guarantee and others that build rifles to their standards they and we "know" that 1/2" is commonly achievable by most shooters with some training.

For some companies a warranty/guarantee are a marketing tool to sell products, period.
 
#45
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unknown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm with C-bass on this one. My guess is that if he has a GAP, Les Baer, or similar rifle that comes with a half inch guarantee, he will on occasion shoot a quarter inch group.

I'll bet $100 that he can't shoot 5 out of 5 consecutive 5 shot quarter inch groups on demand though. If I lost that bet, it would be worth the $100 to see someone do it though. </div></div>

Yeah, to qualify as shooting XX size groups, one does have to shoot at least a few series of groups in the same conditions (read serial) using the same setup, position, etc. NOT using a benchrest (anyone can shoot tight little groups using a benchrest... that's what they are made to do, and to TEST/ZERO weapons for accuracy). Showing a picture of one target claiming 'Oh I can shoot such a tight group' doesn't mean squat. Showing a picture of several targets with similar groupings means a whole hell of a lot more. One target=lucky, several targets=repeatable performance.... or extremely lucky and you should go buy a lotto ticket.

I have a picture of a 1/2 200m group that I put 20 rounds through, but I don't post that sh*t, because it is just one target. Now when my lazy cheap ass decides to actually buy some multiple target type targets, then I will post those. But I have been shooting a lot of steel lately, mainly because I love the sound of the impact, and seeing the target swing after hitting hit (and seeing the big black mark it leaves... they get spray painted with cheap 99 cent store white paint every so often, brush on cheap old whitish ooops paint). There is just something satisfying about reactive targets that paper just doesn't give you. Sure paper is great for feedback, but reactive targets is where you actually learn how to engage targets....
 
#46
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

1/4moa is possible at 100 yds with semi-automatic but unlikely, as stated above, depends most on the shooter. One thing to consider with semi-auto vs. bolt actions, as the distance gets further, e.g. beyond 300 yards, the accuracy deteriorates more for a semi-auto, as the little things matter much more at distance. The trigger pull follow-through and stability with recoil is much more of a factor with a semi-auto and is magnified with further distances.
 
#48
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

The OP raised this subject with an AR-10. However, my JP Enterprises CTR-02 (223 Wylde chambering) get's awful close to consistent 5 round 0.25 MOA groups with 69 gr Sierra Match King's. I've tested it on paper on multiple occasions no further than 100m; so farther out who knows. But I'm convinced that as technological advancements in machining, metallurgy and optics increase we are well on our way to a 0.25 MOA semi-auto world. Provided us shooters are ready.
 
#49
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jayman_10X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The OP raised this subject with an AR-10. However, my JP Enterprises CTR-02 (223 Wylde chambering) get's awful close to consistent 5 round 0.25 MOA groups with 69 gr Sierra Match King's. I've tested it on paper on multiple occasions no further than 100m; so farther out who knows. But I'm convinced that as technological advancements in machining, metallurgy and optics increase we are well on our way to a 0.25 MOA semi-auto world. Provided us shooters are ready.</div></div>

Jayman, we've had rifles and ammunition for years now which prove the fact: the bullet ALWAYS goes in the direction the barrel is pointed. Anything less than zero dispersion is mostly about the shooter not coming to an understanding for where the barrel is pointed, or not being able to maintain recognition for where the barrel is pointed while executing the two firing tasks.
 
#50
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Gas guns are tougher to shoot than bolt guns. Generally bolt guns are ergonomically designed to shoot from the belly or bench, and most gas guns where designed as Infantry Combat weapons (at least at the initial design stage).

I shot a .25 group from a SR-25 EMC this morning with AB39 (Mk316 Mod0) - key a Group, I shot several .5 groups later, but I was the key factor. The same gun shot barely under 1" with M118LR (a decent lot of it, we have several lots of it that are 1.5 MOA ammo at best).

Position and Hold on a Gas gun are much more important, the best comments I have heard is you need to drive a gas gun, while you shoot a bolt gun... Many guns can do it, at the end of the day its the shooter.
 
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