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Fieldcraft Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
- Thread starter vprtoad
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Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
You can actually calculate that shot pretty closely.
Assume that we're talking a 100 yard shot, and you have a 100 yard zero on your scope.
Your elevation zero is composed of two parts. One is compensation for the drop from the muzzle to 100 yards. With a .308, that drop is about 2.7 inches or so, about 2.6 MOA or 0.75 mils.
The other part is the mechanical offset of the line of sight from the line of the bore. Assume a sight height of 1.75 inches, or, at 100 yards, about 1.7 MOA or .5 mils.
Add those up, and you get about 4.3 MOA, or about 1.25 mils.
So, if you rotate your rifle to the left, or bolt up for a right-handed rifle, your windage is now going to be your elevation, but it's at zero.
And your elevation zero is now your windage zero, but it's about 1.25 mils to the right of the line of the bore.
So, if you fire at shot at a point of aim of the scope with no adjustments, the point of impact will be about 1.25 mils to the left of the POA, because that's how far the scope is off from the line of the bore, and about 0.75 mils low. (That's because we no longer have a sight height to compensate for - the scope is at the same level as the bore.)
To visualize that take two pencils or pens. Hold one above another. The top one is your scope, and the bottom one is the line of the bore. Now tilt the bottom one up at the front toward the target, to simulate tilting the muzzle up, to compensate for the drop and the height of the scope above the bore.
Now, maintaining that relationship, rotate them to the left, to simulate turning them to make a bolt up shot. With the line of the scope - now on the left - pointed at an imaginary target, observe that the line of the bore is pointed to the left of the imaginary target.
So, if you hold to the right by 1.2 mils, and high by about 0.75 mils, you should be pretty close to the target.
I don't recommend trying to dial that shot, because it will mess up your zero. Just try holding what we calculated, or what's appropriate for your load and your sight height. See where the bullet goes, make the appropriate connection to your hold, and record it.
If you're making a bolt up shot at a distance of greater than 100 yards, it gets more complicated. In that case, you might want to actually establish a parallel bore zero. In that case, you'd just have to hold to the right by the amount of the sight height, and hold high by whatever the actual bullet drop was at the specified distance.
But this is realistically a pretty short-range technique, except as a match gimmick shot, because the position you have to be in to hold the rifle makes it hard to get the rifle stable. If you have to make this as a real world shot on a human target, you shouldn't have much trouble if you hold a few inches to the right and a few inches high. And good luck and God bless you if you do.
You can actually calculate that shot pretty closely.
Assume that we're talking a 100 yard shot, and you have a 100 yard zero on your scope.
Your elevation zero is composed of two parts. One is compensation for the drop from the muzzle to 100 yards. With a .308, that drop is about 2.7 inches or so, about 2.6 MOA or 0.75 mils.
The other part is the mechanical offset of the line of sight from the line of the bore. Assume a sight height of 1.75 inches, or, at 100 yards, about 1.7 MOA or .5 mils.
Add those up, and you get about 4.3 MOA, or about 1.25 mils.
So, if you rotate your rifle to the left, or bolt up for a right-handed rifle, your windage is now going to be your elevation, but it's at zero.
And your elevation zero is now your windage zero, but it's about 1.25 mils to the right of the line of the bore.
So, if you fire at shot at a point of aim of the scope with no adjustments, the point of impact will be about 1.25 mils to the left of the POA, because that's how far the scope is off from the line of the bore, and about 0.75 mils low. (That's because we no longer have a sight height to compensate for - the scope is at the same level as the bore.)
To visualize that take two pencils or pens. Hold one above another. The top one is your scope, and the bottom one is the line of the bore. Now tilt the bottom one up at the front toward the target, to simulate tilting the muzzle up, to compensate for the drop and the height of the scope above the bore.
Now, maintaining that relationship, rotate them to the left, to simulate turning them to make a bolt up shot. With the line of the scope - now on the left - pointed at an imaginary target, observe that the line of the bore is pointed to the left of the imaginary target.
So, if you hold to the right by 1.2 mils, and high by about 0.75 mils, you should be pretty close to the target.
I don't recommend trying to dial that shot, because it will mess up your zero. Just try holding what we calculated, or what's appropriate for your load and your sight height. See where the bullet goes, make the appropriate connection to your hold, and record it.
If you're making a bolt up shot at a distance of greater than 100 yards, it gets more complicated. In that case, you might want to actually establish a parallel bore zero. In that case, you'd just have to hold to the right by the amount of the sight height, and hold high by whatever the actual bullet drop was at the specified distance.
But this is realistically a pretty short-range technique, except as a match gimmick shot, because the position you have to be in to hold the rifle makes it hard to get the rifle stable. If you have to make this as a real world shot on a human target, you shouldn't have much trouble if you hold a few inches to the right and a few inches high. And good luck and God bless you if you do.
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
Regards for the info
Thank you Lindy, for your help with this
Regards for the info
Thank you Lindy, for your help with this
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
Lindy,
Went and shot this bolt up today and your right... First checked my zero at 100 then 5 shots at 5 different 1" dots
guess what ..... all Low and Left
I was amazed at how low and left however
a lot more than anticipated
thanks again
Lindy,
Went and shot this bolt up today and your right... First checked my zero at 100 then 5 shots at 5 different 1" dots
guess what ..... all Low and Left
I was amazed at how low and left however
a lot more than anticipated
thanks again
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
You're quite welcome. And if you shot it with the bolt down, they'd all have been low and right.
It's a fun shot to play with.
You're quite welcome. And if you shot it with the bolt down, they'd all have been low and right.
It's a fun shot to play with.
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
No one could have explained this any better than Lindy !!!
No one could have explained this any better than Lindy !!!
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
tag, tried it once, now all i need to do is put studs on the sides for the harris.
tag, tried it once, now all i need to do is put studs on the sides for the harris.
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
Lindy... Thanks for the great information! It was just what I was looking for!
Lindy... Thanks for the great information! It was just what I was looking for!
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
We ran this V-Tac 9 hole drill last year at a Multigun match. It was interesting watching everyone shoot at a 100 yard gong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbyqAoiX4CA&feature=related
We ran this V-Tac 9 hole drill last year at a Multigun match. It was interesting watching everyone shoot at a 100 yard gong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbyqAoiX4CA&feature=related
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
That looks pretty damn cool and difficult especially with the ass ton of roosters goin off in the back ground. Great info as always Lindy!
That looks pretty damn cool and difficult especially with the ass ton of roosters goin off in the back ground. Great info as always Lindy!
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
Lindy would've been the guy I cheated off of in school...
Lindy would've been the guy I cheated off of in school...
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lindy would've been the guy I cheated off of in school... </div></div>
Shit i would have paid Lindy to be my "test taker" in school.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lindy would've been the guy I cheated off of in school... </div></div>
Shit i would have paid Lindy to be my "test taker" in school.
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
Good info. Several years ago we were told (with M16/AR) if laying rifle on left side, aim (high and right) at target's shoulder area instead of center mass. On right side, aim at opposite shoulder area. Lindy quantified it with actual numbers for bolt gun, very nice...
Good info. Several years ago we were told (with M16/AR) if laying rifle on left side, aim (high and right) at target's shoulder area instead of center mass. On right side, aim at opposite shoulder area. Lindy quantified it with actual numbers for bolt gun, very nice...
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
What I really like, is the fact that Lindy actually takes the time to answer someone's question without gettin an attitude with them.
So what we have now, is valuable information that everyone can learn and share from. I explained this same principle to my cousin. But I can promise you that my explanation was about 1/50th the information that Lindy provided.
Two great big thumbs up Lindy, you are one of the rare ones!!
DK
What I really like, is the fact that Lindy actually takes the time to answer someone's question without gettin an attitude with them.
So what we have now, is valuable information that everyone can learn and share from. I explained this same principle to my cousin. But I can promise you that my explanation was about 1/50th the information that Lindy provided.
Two great big thumbs up Lindy, you are one of the rare ones!!
DK
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
Just for shits and giggles has any military or LEO taken a shot like this?
Just for shits and giggles has any military or LEO taken a shot like this?
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
I've used it Capt. Moroni. Im assuming that's the righteous warrior with a book named after him in the Book of Mormon and the same golden angel statue on LDS temples.
Out at 29 palms Mojave Viper package you practice this shot through a piece of cardboard with various size holes cut in it. In the particular piece I viewed my target through a different hole that the bullet went through. The advice is spot on however you obviously need to adjust for conditions. I have a video of myself hitting a steel silhouette at 800m shooting off a tripod while sitting on an ammo can. i was amazed at how easily it is actually done and how small of a loop hole you can shoot from and how far back from that loop hole its done. They trained us to shoot like that for that reason. so yes this kind of shot has been done, many times. its not just a trick to impress your friends, but it sure does.
I've used it Capt. Moroni. Im assuming that's the righteous warrior with a book named after him in the Book of Mormon and the same golden angel statue on LDS temples.
Out at 29 palms Mojave Viper package you practice this shot through a piece of cardboard with various size holes cut in it. In the particular piece I viewed my target through a different hole that the bullet went through. The advice is spot on however you obviously need to adjust for conditions. I have a video of myself hitting a steel silhouette at 800m shooting off a tripod while sitting on an ammo can. i was amazed at how easily it is actually done and how small of a loop hole you can shoot from and how far back from that loop hole its done. They trained us to shoot like that for that reason. so yes this kind of shot has been done, many times. its not just a trick to impress your friends, but it sure does.
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
a lot of concrete block buildings have 1 block (8" tall - 16" wide) vents at ground level they would make an unsuspected portal in a building but would require this kind of unusual position
a lot of concrete block buildings have 1 block (8" tall - 16" wide) vents at ground level they would make an unsuspected portal in a building but would require this kind of unusual position
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
interesting, now i have some experimenting to do...
interesting, now i have some experimenting to do...
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vprtoad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I Practice this dry firing
however any advice on impact adjustments </div></div>
Is there supposed to be a picture in this post.....I'm not seeing anything....??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vprtoad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I Practice this dry firing
however any advice on impact adjustments </div></div>
Is there supposed to be a picture in this post.....I'm not seeing anything....??
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
Lindy, if you don't mind...
How does the math work if it were a much longer shot. The elevation side seems pretty straight forward (on paper... in reality it is a bit tougher to call).... just start the drop from a "zero/zero"... it's the windage (elevation turret) that's got me wrapped around the axle...
Lindy, if you don't mind...
How does the math work if it were a much longer shot. The elevation side seems pretty straight forward (on paper... in reality it is a bit tougher to call).... just start the drop from a "zero/zero"... it's the windage (elevation turret) that's got me wrapped around the axle...
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
We have run this match for many years at the British Columbia Tac rifle championship shooting the rifle through a 6" high hole in a barrier. It is a damn hard match to try to shoot MOA in. It sounds simple until you try to execute the shots repeatably in quick succession. Lindy is absolutely correct with his math however I have found I am at closer to 1 mil high hold on the elevation which is really the windage reading. This may be due to crappy inconsistant posture trying to shoot a rifle that you cannot shoulder.
We have run this match for many years at the British Columbia Tac rifle championship shooting the rifle through a 6" high hole in a barrier. It is a damn hard match to try to shoot MOA in. It sounds simple until you try to execute the shots repeatably in quick succession. Lindy is absolutely correct with his math however I have found I am at closer to 1 mil high hold on the elevation which is really the windage reading. This may be due to crappy inconsistant posture trying to shoot a rifle that you cannot shoulder.
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
We actually did that shot in a match years ago in NC at a tactical match. It was 6" plates at 100 yards all stacked up in front of a no shoot target. Now this was 3 gun so dialing was not an option. Just remember if the bolts up shoot at 2 o clock off the top edge of the plate if your using a 308, if using a .223 it's a little more forgiving. The best way I have explained it is that the bullet is almost corkscrewing down into the target. We did a bunch of stuff canting the gun at 45 degrees and Lindy is right, it will mess with your head trying to figure out the dope to make these things work. Something is going to have to be awful F'd up in real life to make me take a shot like that.
We actually did that shot in a match years ago in NC at a tactical match. It was 6" plates at 100 yards all stacked up in front of a no shoot target. Now this was 3 gun so dialing was not an option. Just remember if the bolts up shoot at 2 o clock off the top edge of the plate if your using a 308, if using a .223 it's a little more forgiving. The best way I have explained it is that the bullet is almost corkscrewing down into the target. We did a bunch of stuff canting the gun at 45 degrees and Lindy is right, it will mess with your head trying to figure out the dope to make these things work. Something is going to have to be awful F'd up in real life to make me take a shot like that.
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
I once got to listen to a 'tactical' instructor go into great detail about this position. He said it was developed by the F.B.I. A few years ago several experts promoted this position along with a few hypothetical scenerios, (I call em tacticool gamer play).
An old Marine shooter showed us a position that does the same thing without all the mind bender bullshit. There was one problem with his position, it cant go as low as the FBI one if you use one of those canoe paddle stocks topped with a hubble type scope.
But if you own a more conventional stock and more modestly sized scope the Hawkins position is highly effective but loses alot of points on the impress the rubes meter.
I would have thought the roll the rifle over fad was done by now. it isnt condusive to high stress precision, and isnt easy to get a steady hold.
I once got to listen to a 'tactical' instructor go into great detail about this position. He said it was developed by the F.B.I. A few years ago several experts promoted this position along with a few hypothetical scenerios, (I call em tacticool gamer play).
An old Marine shooter showed us a position that does the same thing without all the mind bender bullshit. There was one problem with his position, it cant go as low as the FBI one if you use one of those canoe paddle stocks topped with a hubble type scope.
But if you own a more conventional stock and more modestly sized scope the Hawkins position is highly effective but loses alot of points on the impress the rubes meter.
I would have thought the roll the rifle over fad was done by now. it isnt condusive to high stress precision, and isnt easy to get a steady hold.
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Parker-Hale Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have run this match for many years at the British Columbia Tac rifle championship shooting the rifle through a 6" high hole in a barrier. It is a damn hard match to try to shoot MOA in. It sounds simple until you try to execute the shots repeatably in quick succession. Lindy is absolutely correct with his math however I have found I am at closer to 1 mil high hold on the elevation which is really the windage reading. This may be due to crappy inconsistant posture trying to shoot a rifle that you cannot shoulder. </div></div>
Recoil dynamics, my friend.
Granted, these HP sticks don't have the barrel time of a smallbore rifle, but fudging with how the rifle recoils is a factor. My Dad taught me that the secret of small groups is consistency. From there, you just adjust your sights or your holdover.
Smallbore taught me that the difference between an ISU target 10 and an 8 at 12 o'clock was firm vs. slight buttplate pressure on my shoulder. Fast lock time couldn't fix that in prone.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Parker-Hale Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have run this match for many years at the British Columbia Tac rifle championship shooting the rifle through a 6" high hole in a barrier. It is a damn hard match to try to shoot MOA in. It sounds simple until you try to execute the shots repeatably in quick succession. Lindy is absolutely correct with his math however I have found I am at closer to 1 mil high hold on the elevation which is really the windage reading. This may be due to crappy inconsistant posture trying to shoot a rifle that you cannot shoulder. </div></div>
Recoil dynamics, my friend.
Granted, these HP sticks don't have the barrel time of a smallbore rifle, but fudging with how the rifle recoils is a factor. My Dad taught me that the secret of small groups is consistency. From there, you just adjust your sights or your holdover.
Smallbore taught me that the difference between an ISU target 10 and an 8 at 12 o'clock was firm vs. slight buttplate pressure on my shoulder. Fast lock time couldn't fix that in prone.
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JustForFun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't believe the sloped rail will have any effect. I think it will just shift where your 100 yard zero falls withing the scopes range of elevation adjustment.</div></div> Yep, a zero is a zero, therefore a canted base will have no ill effect. You're sighting with the reticle, not the tube.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JustForFun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't believe the sloped rail will have any effect. I think it will just shift where your 100 yard zero falls withing the scopes range of elevation adjustment.</div></div> Yep, a zero is a zero, therefore a canted base will have no ill effect. You're sighting with the reticle, not the tube.
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
Another thing I considered is that you may run out of dope for this shot. We have Nikon Monarch 2.5-10s on our rifles with a base that gives 20 MOA from the giddy-up. Some of the snipers that shoot with our team at practice do not have this type of base and run out of dope when we go out to 600 yards at Ft. Dix.
Obviously, I would lose that 20 minutes if I went to 90 degrees.
Another thing I considered is that you may run out of dope for this shot. We have Nikon Monarch 2.5-10s on our rifles with a base that gives 20 MOA from the giddy-up. Some of the snipers that shoot with our team at practice do not have this type of base and run out of dope when we go out to 600 yards at Ft. Dix.
Obviously, I would lose that 20 minutes if I went to 90 degrees.
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
With my AI 308 / Night Force it exactly 4 min x 4 min bolt up or bolt down. Bolt up I use 4 min negitive elevation and bolt down I use 4 min pos elevation. I think. Now that I am writing it down I am second guessing. Ill have to go double ck data book but I do know its 4 x 4
With my AI 308 / Night Force it exactly 4 min x 4 min bolt up or bolt down. Bolt up I use 4 min negitive elevation and bolt down I use 4 min pos elevation. I think. Now that I am writing it down I am second guessing. Ill have to go double ck data book but I do know its 4 x 4
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TaknOutSlack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With my AI 308 / Night Force it exactly 4 min x 4 min bolt up or bolt down. Bolt up I use 4 min negitive elevation and bolt down I use 4 min pos elevation. I think. Now that I am writing it down I am second guessing. Ill have to go double ck data book but I do know its 4 x 4</div></div> And I'm sure you found it said you always go up in elevation. Your either/or would be your windage. The shot will impact low and in the direction of the cant, so you need to offset high and away from the cant.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TaknOutSlack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With my AI 308 / Night Force it exactly 4 min x 4 min bolt up or bolt down. Bolt up I use 4 min negitive elevation and bolt down I use 4 min pos elevation. I think. Now that I am writing it down I am second guessing. Ill have to go double ck data book but I do know its 4 x 4</div></div> And I'm sure you found it said you always go up in elevation. Your either/or would be your windage. The shot will impact low and in the direction of the cant, so you need to offset high and away from the cant.
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lindy would've been the guy I cheated off of in school... </div></div>
you would have cheated off the teacher?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lindy would've been the guy I cheated off of in school... </div></div>
you would have cheated off the teacher?
Re: Shooting prone with gun laying sideways at a 90
this is an interesting technique that i have been wanting to try for a long time (ad military so cant) i wanna see how far out you can get hits on target. seems pretty straight forward to me.. compensate for your height over bore and use holds...
anyone have videos or know where i can find one of people doing this in a precision setting? (not carbines)
this is an interesting technique that i have been wanting to try for a long time (ad military so cant) i wanna see how far out you can get hits on target. seems pretty straight forward to me.. compensate for your height over bore and use holds...
anyone have videos or know where i can find one of people doing this in a precision setting? (not carbines)
