Rifle Scopes SHOT Show 2021 Rumor Mill and What's Coming

[Glassaholic]

Hi,

If we only viewed scope magnification like vehicle speeds, lol.

IF I spend most of my day going 75mph then I damn sure do not want my vehicles top speed to be 75mph. Ideally I want 75mph to be between 60-70% of top speed. The performance and reliability is proven with that method.

Sincerely,
Theis

If that's how all scope designs worked then yes, but unfortunately they aren't. A Tangent Theta at 25x is going to perform much better than a Burris XTR II 8-40 at 25x and that's at the top of the of the TT's usable magnification, while the Burris would be in the middle. I do agree that many scopes have a goldilocks zone where performance is better in that 30-60% range or whatever it ends up being, but sometimes it just doesn't play out that way. I saw no distinct advantage of the Schmidt 5-45x56 at 25x than I did with my Minox ZP5 at 25x, in fact, if anything the Minox had the slight edge, so if atmospherics dictate that I will rarely ever go above 25x what advantage then does the Schmidt 5-45x offer? Then there are other factors at play, how forgiving is the eyebox, how forgiving is DOF and parallax and so forth, in general, I would say the goldilocks zone is going to treat you better than the extremes in most scopes and maybe that is part of the point, but part of the reason shooters opt for alpha class glass is that the scopes do better throughout a broader spectrum (goldilocks zone is much larger). Keep in mind these are more rhetorical questions than they are specifically directed at you Theis, but your post had me thinking more about it.

Burris has their XTR II 8-40 and Sightron has their SIII 8-32 scopes but I don't think these were/are huge sellers for these companies, but these are "budget" scopes in comparison to alpha class. If ZCO were to make a ZC840 8-40x60 or something bizarre like that, would it perform "that much" better than their 5-27 does? And what would the market be for that scope? Seems like this has been tried before, but market acceptance has just not been there. I could be wrong, I admit I don't know all the answers but I'm not certain the market is ready to dump their 5-25's for 8-40's (unless you're a Nightforce owner, but as previously mentioned, I think the reason many have jumped ship on their ATACR 5-25's is because the ATACR 7-35 is a better scope overall, but is the ATACR 7-35 better than something like a ZCO 5-27... and that leaves us with the thousands of posts in the optics forum asking "Is scope A better than scope B" or "what is the best scope for X?" and also why we get a hundred different answers.)

The best scope is the scope that works for you, it could be a $200 scope or it could be a $6000 scope. As we compete or advance in our marksmanship we may find that a scope we've been using does have limitations and decide to upgrade to improve on an area of deficiency. The good news (and possibly the bad news) is there are so many options to choose from and most are great options, but even with all the options we have there still appears to be some gaps that would be nice to see filled and that was part of why I decided to start this thread to begin with.

 

[J-Ham]

LMAO..this is the living, breating "take 3 steps" and shoot meme

Now don't get me wrong, I think there's a time & a place for everything. LRI is working on a 6.5 CM rifle for me right now with a Proof barrel & a Manners carbon stock... I would never even consider a Razor for that rifle. It just seems like guys are always on here beating up the manufacturers over weight of the scope for a 20+ lb rifle.

 

[b2lee]

No rumor, I just keep asking @gebhardt02 for a “new” MPCT3 with a funnel-delete, regular vertical stadia (at least going up 4 to 5 mils), and if I’m dreaming a 0.05 mil center dot.

I’m holding out on my first ZCO until spring of 2021 in hopes this becomes a reality, otherwise I will have to decide on MPCT2 vs 3. Leaning toward the MPCT3.

IF @gebhardt02 would announce an MPCT4-B2 reticle that was the MPCT3 without the funnel.....and if it would come in a new 8-40x scope....I'd just send @CSTactical even more money....and wait for 6 months to a year outside on the curb until the big brown truck showed up with my new ELR scope.

Not asking much....just perfection

 

[357Max]

Now don't get me wrong, I think there's a time & a place for everything. LRI is working on a 6.5 CM rifle for me right now with a Proof barrel & a Manners carbon stock... I would never even consider a Razor for that rifle. It just seems like guys are always on here beating up the manufacturers over weight of the scope for a 20+ lb rifle.

Razor LHT 3-15 x 42 @ 19.1 oz sounds like a perfect match for that rifle. I just ordered on for a light weight Tika hunting build.

I'm not complaining. Razor G2 is a great value, & comes with free weight kit
Hell I think it's the best bang for the buck & just ordered another from Liberty for one of those 16-18lb pigs.

 

[J-Ham]

It's actually getting a 32 oz (I think) Hensoldt 3-12x... I have the scope, I like the scope, so...

 

[Glassaholic]

It's actually getting a 32 oz (I think) Hensoldt 3-12x... I have the scope, I like the scope, so...

One of my favorite scopes that I've never owned has always been the Hensoldt 4-16x56 with NH1 reticle, had a chance a few years back to grab one for a decent price and kick myself for not doing so. I'm sure the 3-12 is just as amazing.

 

[blue_ridge]

Vortex AMG 8-32X please. Or 8-40X.

 

[ormandj]

I never understood why so many guys on here are adding steel weights to their rifle one minute & then complaining that scopes don't weigh 5 oz the next... Hell I don't care if Vortex makes the Razor even heavier... I wish it was made in the USA though.

For what it’s worth, I wish some of the scopes were lighter and I also don’t add weights to my rifle. Not everyone here is a PRS shooter with a 20lb+ setup. It took me a while to realize the P in PRS stands for “precision” and not “practical”.

PRS is just a game at this point, and pay to win involves absurdly heavy firearms. There are plenty of us out there that love precision and practical shooting who try to keep our rifles at 10lbs or less, fully kitted out, and 5oz matters a lot to us! There’s no way I would be caught dead carrying around a 20lb rifle any further than I had to. I built one to see what the fuss was about and it’s great because anyone I let get behind it after setting turrets for conditions can ring steel at 1000 even with poor fundamentals, but I can shoot a rifle half the weight almost as rapidly (more quickly than I ever need in real world application) with the same precision, and I don’t hate life when I hike a few miles with it.

Bring on lighter scopes without sacrificing durability! Some of us pay good money to cut ounces, and I wouldn’t mind a more expensive ZCO with the same optical quality and durability that weighed 5oz less! (Also switch to a lever or switch for locking turrets, the push pull style drive me nuts while we talk about new scope desires!)

 

[CSTactical]

I'm carrying this over from a ZCO thread just to add a little reality of this industry...

Just in regards to this industry in General (Not just ZCO) if anything is announced around Shot Show it's rarely available for months at a minimum. And with the Pandemic it can be a year IMO, another thing people don't realize is that price adjustments start happening around this time and then people complain about waiting for a non-existent product and now are paying more. Again, this is in general as I have not been told anything yet by any manufacturer so I can make this statement. With this industry right now, waiting is going to be the norm but I rather pay 2020 prices than potential 2021 prices with just raw materials becoming harder to obtain consistently.
Again, this is about this industry in general though this is a ZCO thread.

Oh and a month wait is nothing when some vendors are quoting us new orders coming in by Summer 2021!

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’m not expecting much from 2021 as far as a lot of new products.

When your current products are back ordering in the current quantities we are seeing, R&D goes on back burner.

Also, even if you have a new product ready to roll out, you sit on it until your current models aren’t being back ordered. Then you have a new shiny carrot to bring back customers who just finished buying all the old stuff.

 

[steve123]

As I move along in my shooting and riflescope journey I'm learning some things.
There are compromises with these high mag ratio scopes due to the physics that are present. Compromises because of length, etc, etc. I don't understand all the intricacies of the what's and why's but I guess it comes down to trade offs, it's a - "design this into the scope and that suffers" and that can mean a scope that is very enticing on paper can turn out to be disappointing in certain ways. Oh the scope will get the job done but in the end was it worth the compromises??!!

Maybe there's a reason we see spotting scopes with 65, 80, and 100mm objectives, rhetorical. Might be time for riflescope designers that bring about 35x and up magnification scopes and put larger objectives on them. I'm sure there are compromises here too like weight and mounting issues, etc, but.....
Like we see in PRS and ELR, weight isn't much of an issue and might even be desirable.
I don't like it when I put my two March scopes with 56mm objective on 40x, they get dim enough to annoy me, just sayin. I bought both these scopes to use at that magnification quite a bit.

I totally agree with LowLight, Honestly the only times I use the lowest magnification in my FFP 5-25's, 5-40's, etc is when i shoot through my old Oehler 35 chrono to make sure I'm not going to hit the sensors. Or to scan but even then I'm usually around 8x because 5x makes it harder to find locate the steel. I think using 4-5 mag ratio scopes would bring a more pleasing IQ in general than higher ratio scopes.

How about a FFP 9x45x70???

I'm still waiting for a super featherweight and reasonably short FFP mil/mil scope designed for hunting with thicker reticle. 2.5-12.5x38 or so, with a well thought out reticle lacking mil line numbers just off the vertical. Don't need to shoot super far out with it so don't need much elevation travel, I want great glass, wide FOV, low profile capped but finger adjustable turrets, ZS, and daylight bright illume.

 

[ormandj]

Like we see in PRS and ELR, weight isn't much of an issue and might even be desirable.

I totally agree with LowLight, Honestly the only times I use the lowest magnification in my FFP 5-25's, 5-40's, etc is when i shoot through my old Oehler 35 chrono to make sure I'm not going to hit the sensors. Or to scan but even then I'm usually around 8x because 5x makes it harder to find locate the steel. I think using 4-5 mag ratio scopes would bring a more pleasing IQ in general than higher ratio scopes.

I think we have to be very careful here. I and many others use low magnification _all the time_ with our scopes. PRS is a game, and that game is played in a way that there are optimal types of equipment. For PRS, a lot of weight and always being on high magnification may make a lot of sense. This forum does have a lot of PRS-centric views and users, but that's not all of us. Same for ELR. I don't want a 4lb scope/mount combo, nor a 10-50 scope on the vast majority of my rifles.

I'd love to see more options, for a lot of the reasons you mentioned, but there's a reason a lot of these scopes exist, and I don't think the need for low magnification is going away anytime soon for people not playing the PRS game. I'm often hunting at 5x, or just passively observing, depending on situation. I just want to see these larger/heavier scopes as options, not replacements!

I do think it'd be great to see some 5-6x erector scopes with higher power for these purposes. If you want more resolution/clarity, I think the lower erector zoom ratios make some difference. I just don't know that they're going to help you that much with light gathering at 42x+ if the exit pupil is too small for your eye. Based on your posts re: the higher power scopes, I think you have an issue in this regard, because I didn't see the same problem with the same scopes, nor did koshkin or others.

Obviously some dimming, but these scopes were totally usable for him/I/others. Some of the optics experts can chime in, and I know erector design does play into light transmission, but I think you have to go with a larger objective to fix exit pupil issues, and getting into 60mm+ objective might be a bit much on a scope! It'd be cool to see them for dedicated PRS/ELR rifles. Variety is always great.

 

[ma smith]

good bino uses ~4 to 5mm exit pupil, and traditionally a good scope is limited at around ~2mm exit pupil.

if you are using x56mm scope objective, your "observation grade" (bino quality) use of optic is light limited at ranges beyond 12x, but more significantly beyone 28x where exit pupil is 2mm.

so to reiterate the pionts made earlier, 40 or 50x mag on a 56mm lens is kind of pointless untill you get 2mm exit pupil, which would mean 80mm or something objective lense which is adding a ton of weight.

recall high school -> circle area=πr^2 so increasing with the square of the radius radius 28 vs radius 40 is ∆12 or "alot" vs 28 (43%) but the square is even more 1600 vs 728 (105%)...

So we are talking double the area of glass, double the weight, and probably 2x the cost (if you are lucky).

So PRS guys you would get a 96oz vortex ... for $4K

 

[rnlzkbrs]

Obviously some dimming, but these scopes were totally usable for him/I/others. Some of the optics experts can chime in, and I know erector design does play into light transmission, but I think you have to go with a larger objective to fix exit pupil issues, and getting into 60mm+ objective might be a bit much on a scope! It'd be cool to see them for dedicated PRS/ELR rifles. Variety is always great.

I do not think erector design has any significant effect on the amount of light transmitted through the scope. It's the objective diameter (which we can control) and individual features of a specific human eye (which we can't control) that defines how bright the picture appears to a specific individual.

So PRS guys you would get a 96oz vortex ... for $4K

As an ELR guy I have a rifle that weights 25lbs, so extra 96oz is not a problem. And I'm perfectly fine if the scope's objective would be 100mm and length 3 ft or even more.

 

[ma smith]

As an ELR guy I have a rifle that weights 25lbs...

For the "real" ELR guys...

 

[koshkin]

For precision shooting, you do not really need very high magnification, but it is nice to have for when the conditions allow for it and if you have time and want to really get a better look at the conditions. For example, in some areas, I can set a scope on high mag and my scanning through the focus range get an idea of how the wind changes between me and the target.

For the low magnification, outside of military applications, I am not sure why I need anything below 7x or 8x at all.

ILya

 

[beetroot]

For the low magnification, outside of military applications, I am not sure why I need anything below 7x or 8x at all.

ILya

I use all my rifles/scopes as cross over rifles to some degree so like having lower magnification.
My 22lr trainer/NRL/PRS/whatever it's called wears a 3-15 PST, whilst I'd like a little more magnification on the top end I do use it in the 3-8x magnification as much if not more than I use 8-15x.

Needless to say everyone seems to use their rifles/scopes in slightly different ways, so more choice in optics/mag ranges would be a good thing.
But I certainly don't want to see a trend towards super high magnification if it were to mean the death of lower mag "tactical" scopes.

 

[Burdy]

This thread is funny. "Precision shooting" does not mean PRS. Some people shoot benchrest and that level of precision and the magnification required are very different. Secondly, low magnification is very useful for those doing that other kind of "Precision Shooting" on things that move around quickly and have fur. This is "Snipers Hide" not "PRS Hide" and the way I see it, a very small portion of the members here are "Sniping" in the truest since anyway. @wjm308 made a good post, with wants based upon HIS needs. He never said it was going to be everything for everybody. We all have different use cases, how can someone tell me that "X" feature is not useful if they have no idea what I am going to do with the rifle. It's all a bit silly.
Also, I agree 100% with @ormandj ...the P in PRS is not for practical and when a shooting sport moves on from the practical application it was designed to support, I have no interest. It's one reason I think Run and Gun is exploding in popularity. Now, lets build those LPVOs.

 

[HenryTheAce]

Would like to see some large bore TBAC cans like a 46 cal

 

[molzarella]

I want 15x56 binoculars with a mil reticle that uses .2 mil markings.

and a rangefinder

 

[Trident3033]

Maybe it's a bit too early but I'm getting the itch to try something new. Since SHOT cancelled for 2021 and since the Hide usually has some insiders that let some things slip, any news on new optics coming up for 2021?

I'm really looking forward to the new March 4.5-28x52 High Master, production units are supposed to ship end of January and be on shelves by around mid February, this scope was first seen at SHOT 2020 with a few reticles but my favorite is the one @koshkin designed which is called the FML-TR1, brilliant design. Scope has gone through a few pre-production iterations so I'm anxious to see how the final version plays out.

That is the only new scope that I know is coming, so hopefully some of you will have a little better insight.

Until then, I'll start some thoughts on what I'd like to see coming from some manufacturers:

• ZCO offers Gen 3XR reticle in their existing scopes (Jeff, Nick... please, I'm begging you ). Well okay, TT owns the Gen 3XR, but give us something with a larger center dot and dots in the Christmas tree instead of thick lines.
• ZCO ZC316 - a 3.2-16x50 FFP scope with 30mm tube and under 27oz with daylight bright illumination (be kinda nice to have something a little different from the traditional 3-15 without getting too crazy, this would be ZCO's version of a Light Tactical)
• ZCO ZC212 - a 2-12x42 FFP scope with fantastic mrad reticle with larger outer circle and unobscured wind holds off main horizontal stadia, under 23oz with daylight bright illumination
• ZCO ZC18 - a 1-8x24 FFP scope with fantastic mrad reticle with larger outer circle and unobscured wind holds off main horizontal stadia, under 20oz with daylight bright illumination
• Vortex AMG 4-20x50 scope with 30mm tube and under 26oz (been asking for this ever since they came out with the 6-24). We know the AMG team has been back at it, but what will these brilliant optical minds think up for the next AMG scope, hope it's amazing.
• Vortex Razor Gen III long range scopes to replace 4.5-27 and 3-18 that don't weigh 3lbs
• Vortex Razor Gen III 3-18x44 Ultra Light FFP Scope, under 25oz
• Minox ZP5 4-20x58 FFP low light monster with MR4 reticle (but larger center dot)- Blaser already makes this scope but let's be honest, the reticle sucks and they limit the turret to only 8 mrad. Since Minox is a sister company it shouldn't be too difficult to take the same optical design, put in the MR4 reticle and use the ZP5 turrets or similar.
• March 3.2-20x56 FFP scope with 25° WA eyepiece, doesn't have to be so short, but if kept under 30oz could become a crossover king! Using similar design principles as the 4.5-28x52 HM, with a 6.22 erector this scope would be specifically geared to the crossover community with the huge 56mm objective and locking turrets like the 5-42x56 HM. Longer scope body design with forgiving eyebox and parallax and a new reticle that has larger outer circle similar to Bushnell LRHS G2H design for use at low magnification.
• Leupold finally comes out with a decent competition Christmas tree reticle like the Gen 3XR (come on Leupold, if Nightforce can come out with the Mil-XT certainly you can figure something out)
• Leupold decides to stop charging over $500 for illumination
• Burris XTR III Illuminated Models finally come to life with thicker SCR2 reticle options
• Schmidt & Bender PM III series where they finally remove the illumination tumor and put it in line with the parallax like almost everyone else.
• Schmidt & Bender PM III 5-30x56 to replace the venerable 5-25x56, scope does not tunnel and has wide FOV with superb edge to edge sharpness
• Nightforce ATACR II - further improvement on IQ, wider FOV, lighter scopes
• EDIT - Forgot about Bushnell. The LRHS/LRTS series scopes were hidden gems for those seeking stellar IQ at an affordable price. Would like to see some new designs with 5x erector, a 4-20x44 would be an interesting replacement for the 4.5-18x44, would also like to see a newer version of the G2H reticle, maybe a G3H or better, the G3 almost got there but not quite, could use a few more .2 mil hash points.
• Bushnell should finally introduce illumination to the DMR II PRO, but would also like to see a rework of the DMR II - a DMR III would have "PRO" glass, illumination, but re-designed optical formula that improves FOV throughout the magnification range, maybe even a bit of a diet as these 35oz beasts are a bit heavy for a lot of DMR type builds which they were designed for.

Maybe it's a bit too early but I'm getting the itch to try something new. Since SHOT cancelled for 2021 and since the Hide usually has some insiders that let some things slip, any news on new optics coming up for 2021?

I'm really looking forward to the new March 4.5-28x52 High Master, production units are supposed to ship end of January and be on shelves by around mid February, this scope was first seen at SHOT 2020 with a few reticles but my favorite is the one @koshkin designed which is called the FML-TR1, brilliant design. Scope has gone through a few pre-production iterations so I'm anxious to see how the final version plays out.

That is the only new scope that I know is coming, so hopefully some of you will have a little better insight.

Until then, I'll start some thoughts on what I'd like to see coming from some manufacturers:

• ZCO offers Gen 3XR reticle in their existing scopes (Jeff, Nick... please, I'm begging you ). Well okay, TT owns the Gen 3XR, but give us something with a larger center dot and dots in the Christmas tree instead of thick lines.
• ZCO ZC316 - a 3.2-16x50 FFP scope with 30mm tube and under 27oz with daylight bright illumination (be kinda nice to have something a little different from the traditional 3-15 without getting too crazy, this would be ZCO's version of a Light Tactical)
• ZCO ZC212 - a 2-12x42 FFP scope with fantastic mrad reticle with larger outer circle and unobscured wind holds off main horizontal stadia, under 23oz with daylight bright illumination
• ZCO ZC18 - a 1-8x24 FFP scope with fantastic mrad reticle with larger outer circle and unobscured wind holds off main horizontal stadia, under 20oz with daylight bright illumination
• Vortex AMG 4-20x50 scope with 30mm tube and under 26oz (been asking for this ever since they came out with the 6-24). We know the AMG team has been back at it, but what will these brilliant optical minds think up for the next AMG scope, hope it's amazing.
• Vortex Razor Gen III long range scopes to replace 4.5-27 and 3-18 that don't weigh 3lbs
• Vortex Razor Gen III 3-18x44 Ultra Light FFP Scope, under 25oz
• Minox ZP5 4-20x58 FFP low light monster with MR4 reticle (but larger center dot)- Blaser already makes this scope but let's be honest, the reticle sucks and they limit the turret to only 8 mrad. Since Minox is a sister company it shouldn't be too difficult to take the same optical design, put in the MR4 reticle and use the ZP5 turrets or similar.
• March 3.2-20x56 FFP scope with 25° WA eyepiece, doesn't have to be so short, but if kept under 30oz could become a crossover king! Using similar design principles as the 4.5-28x52 HM, with a 6.22 erector this scope would be specifically geared to the crossover community with the huge 56mm objective and locking turrets like the 5-42x56 HM. Longer scope body design with forgiving eyebox and parallax and a new reticle that has larger outer circle similar to Bushnell LRHS G2H design for use at low magnification.
• Leupold finally comes out with a decent competition Christmas tree reticle like the Gen 3XR (come on Leupold, if Nightforce can come out with the Mil-XT certainly you can figure something out)
• Leupold decides to stop charging over $500 for illumination
• Burris XTR III Illuminated Models finally come to life with thicker SCR2 reticle options
• Schmidt & Bender PM III series where they finally remove the illumination tumor and put it in line with the parallax like almost everyone else.
• Schmidt & Bender PM III 5-30x56 to replace the venerable 5-25x56, scope does not tunnel and has wide FOV with superb edge to edge sharpness
• Nightforce ATACR II - further improvement on IQ, wider FOV, lighter scopes
• EDIT - Forgot about Bushnell. The LRHS/LRTS series scopes were hidden gems for those seeking stellar IQ at an affordable price. Would like to see some new designs with 5x erector, a 4-20x44 would be an interesting replacement for the 4.5-18x44, would also like to see a newer version of the G2H reticle, maybe a G3H or better, the G3 almost got there but not quite, could use a few more .2 mil hash points.
• Bushnell should finally introduce illumination to the DMR II PRO, but would also like to see a rework of the DMR II - a DMR III would have "PRO" glass, illumination, but re-designed optical formula that improves FOV throughout the magnification range, maybe even a bit of a diet as these 35oz beasts are a bit heavy for a lot of DMR type builds which they were designed for.

Thanks very much.

 

[CBDR]

Maybe it's a bit too early but I'm getting the itch to try something new. Since SHOT cancelled for 2021 and since the Hide usually has some insiders that let some things slip, any news on new optics coming up for 2021?

I'm really looking forward to the new March 4.5-28x52 High Master, production units are supposed to ship end of January and be on shelves by around mid February, this scope was first seen at SHOT 2020 with a few reticles but my favorite is the one @koshkin designed which is called the FML-TR1, brilliant design. Scope has gone through a few pre-production iterations so I'm anxious to see how the final version plays out.

That is the only new scope that I know is coming, so hopefully some of you will have a little better insight.

Until then, I'll start some thoughts on what I'd like to see coming from some manufacturers:

• ZCO offers Gen 3XR reticle in their existing scopes (Jeff, Nick... please, I'm begging you ). Well okay, TT owns the Gen 3XR, but give us something with a larger center dot and dots in the Christmas tree instead of thick lines.
• ZCO ZC316 - a 3.2-16x50 FFP scope with 30mm tube and under 27oz with daylight bright illumination (be kinda nice to have something a little different from the traditional 3-15 without getting too crazy, this would be ZCO's version of a Light Tactical)
• ZCO ZC212 - a 2-12x42 FFP scope with fantastic mrad reticle with larger outer circle and unobscured wind holds off main horizontal stadia, under 23oz with daylight bright illumination
• ZCO ZC18 - a 1-8x24 FFP scope with fantastic mrad reticle with larger outer circle and unobscured wind holds off main horizontal stadia, under 20oz with daylight bright illumination
• Vortex AMG 4-20x50 scope with 30mm tube and under 26oz (been asking for this ever since they came out with the 6-24). We know the AMG team has been back at it, but what will these brilliant optical minds think up for the next AMG scope, hope it's amazing.
• Vortex Razor Gen III long range scopes to replace 4.5-27 and 3-18 that don't weigh 3lbs
• Vortex Razor Gen III 3-18x44 Ultra Light FFP Scope, under 25oz
• Minox ZP5 4-20x58 FFP low light monster with MR4 reticle (but larger center dot)- Blaser already makes this scope but let's be honest, the reticle sucks and they limit the turret to only 8 mrad. Since Minox is a sister company it shouldn't be too difficult to take the same optical design, put in the MR4 reticle and use the ZP5 turrets or similar.
• March 3.2-20x56 FFP scope with 25° WA eyepiece, doesn't have to be so short, but if kept under 30oz could become a crossover king! Using similar design principles as the 4.5-28x52 HM, with a 6.22 erector this scope would be specifically geared to the crossover community with the huge 56mm objective and locking turrets like the 5-42x56 HM. Longer scope body design with forgiving eyebox and parallax and a new reticle that has larger outer circle similar to Bushnell LRHS G2H design for use at low magnification.
• Leupold finally comes out with a decent competition Christmas tree reticle like the Gen 3XR (come on Leupold, if Nightforce can come out with the Mil-XT certainly you can figure something out)
• Leupold decides to stop charging over $500 for illumination
• Burris XTR III Illuminated Models finally come to life with thicker SCR2 reticle options
• Schmidt & Bender PM III series where they finally remove the illumination tumor and put it in line with the parallax like almost everyone else.
• Schmidt & Bender PM III 5-30x56 to replace the venerable 5-25x56, scope does not tunnel and has wide FOV with superb edge to edge sharpness
• Nightforce ATACR II - further improvement on IQ, wider FOV, lighter scopes
• EDIT - Forgot about Bushnell. The LRHS/LRTS series scopes were hidden gems for those seeking stellar IQ at an affordable price. Would like to see some new designs with 5x erector, a 4-20x44 would be an interesting replacement for the 4.5-18x44, would also like to see a newer version of the G2H reticle, maybe a G3H or better, the G3 almost got there but not quite, could use a few more .2 mil hash points.
• Bushnell should finally introduce illumination to the DMR II PRO, but would also like to see a rework of the DMR II - a DMR III would have "PRO" glass, illumination, but re-designed optical formula that improves FOV throughout the magnification range, maybe even a bit of a diet as these 35oz beasts are a bit heavy for a lot of DMR type builds which they were designed for.

Agree: S & B PM II Needs to have that tumor removed.

 

[steve123]

I think we have to be very careful here. I and many others use low magnification _all the time_ with our scopes. PRS is a game, and that game is played in a way that there are optimal types of equipment. For PRS, a lot of weight and always being on high magnification may make a lot of sense. This forum does have a lot of PRS-centric views and users, but that's not all of us. Same for ELR. I don't want a 4lb scope/mount combo, nor a 10-50 scope on the vast majority of my rifles.

I'd love to see more options, for a lot of the reasons you mentioned, but there's a reason a lot of these scopes exist, and I don't think the need for low magnification is going away anytime soon for people not playing the PRS game. I'm often hunting at 5x, or just passively observing, depending on situation. I just want to see these larger/heavier scopes as options, not replacements!

I do think it'd be great to see some 5-6x erector scopes with higher power for these purposes. If you want more resolution/clarity, I think the lower erector zoom ratios make some difference. I just don't know that they're going to help you that much with light gathering at 42x+ if the exit pupil is too small for your eye. Based on your posts re: the higher power scopes, I think you have an issue in this regard, because I didn't see the same problem with the same scopes, nor did koshkin or others.

Obviously some dimming, but these scopes were totally usable for him/I/others. Some of the optics experts can chime in, and I know erector design does play into light transmission, but I think you have to go with a larger objective to fix exit pupil issues, and getting into 60mm+ objective might be a bit much on a scope! It'd be cool to see them for dedicated PRS/ELR rifles. Variety is always great.

I think the lower to mid range magnifications scopes are mostly covered aside from some of us that want something a little different which is kinda what this thread is about. So there's no need to "be careful" IMO.

The fantasy high magnification large objective scopes fill a niche which could evolve. The only scope I can think of is the Hensoldt 6-24x72 that uses such an objective that large. It was a cool scope but it was SFP so....It might be more interesting if it was a FFP 8-32x72??? People like to use this scope for hunting at dusk and dawn because it gives you the luxury of being able to see a few minutes later or earlier.

My 5-42x56 on 42x is slightly dim but make no mistake I could hit just fine with it like I could with any other "usable" scope. I don't want usable, I want spectacular IQ on high magnification. I also have a rifle that weighs 23 lbs and wouldn't mind a gnarly big scope on it.

 

[Kickin45]

Id like to see a true Gen 2 (or is it 3 now) Athlon Cronus. 7-35x58 would be ideal.
And yes of course XTR3 illumination

 

[Eostech]

I think this is one of the biggest limitations of high top end magnification - atmospherics can wreck havoc on getting a good sight picture, how many times have we seen that steel plate wobble around, not because of movement on our part but because atmospherics was making it dance. A survey was done (not scientific mind you, just asking shooters in a thread) a few years back and it seemed most PRS shooters would not go above 20x even out past around 800 yards, or more appropriately - especially out past 800 yards, dealing with atmospherics at distance can be a real bear and the sweet spot for most seemed to be around 15-18x magnification.

Except for F-class where the NF 15-55X52 or March 10-60 are very popular, now while that is quite different to PRS the same physics apply to everyone. Personally talking to a very successful shooter who used NF 15-55s on multiple rifle at max power all times in frankly soupy conditions makes me think they deal with it ok.

@milanuk should know more, I'm a bit out of touch with F class.

As an ELR guy I have a rifle that weights 25lbs, so extra 96oz is not a problem. And I'm perfectly fine if the scope's objective would be 100mm and length 3 ft or even more.

Maybe US Optics will make the sn9 10-42X 80 again.

 

[memilanuk]

Most of the people I know only use the very top magnification if the conditions are just right - first thing in the morning, before the mirage gets going, and if the lighting is on the target face just so. The rest of the time... 35-45x tops, with 40x being pretty common. If the mirage gets too bad, I've gone down as far as 22-25x... mainly because that was the power at which I could use the SFP reticle to 'bracket' the target frame, because there wasn't a discernible aiming point left on the target face itself, and it was too big of a 'blob' to quarter with any degree of precision

 

[steve123]

Except for F-class where the NF 15-55X52 or March 10-60 are very popular, now while that is quite different to PRS the same physics apply to everyone. Personally talking to a very successful shooter who used NF 15-55s on multiple rifle at max power all times in frankly soupy conditions makes me think they deal with it ok.

@milanuk should know more, I'm a bit out of touch with F class.




Maybe US Optics will make the sn9 10-42X 80 again.

Ha, a bud of mine had one. Imagine his surprise when the bell on that thing bottomed out on his barrel by a miles distance or so of elevation was clicked.

Great concept, but....

 

[Lawnboi]

I think a 42mm, mil/mil, illuminated, capped windage, lightish scope scratches an itch for a hunting scope for me. Something like the Leupold mk5 44mm but from a company know for not producing duds.

I know the hunting market is fairly small, and a lot of hunters don’t want to drop that kind of coin on a scope. But a guy can dream.

Honestly after this year hunting I’m considering putting higher mag ffp scopes on my hunting rifles. Only for ID purposes. Almost notched a tag on a spike thinking it was a doe.

 

[IanHusaberg]

I hope vortex comes out with fury 6000 LRF Bino’s with ABS. Built in compass with Bluetooth so you can connect to a kestrel. Is that to much to ask for?

 

[schmi015]

I think a 42mm, mil/mil, illuminated, capped windage, lightish scope scratches an itch for a hunting scope for me. Something like the Leupold mk5 44mm but from a company know for not producing duds.

I know the hunting market is fairly small, and a lot of hunters don’t want to drop that kind of coin on a scope. But a guy can dream.

Honestly after this year hunting I’m considering putting higher mag ffp scopes on my hunting rifles. Only for ID purposes. Almost notched a tag on a spike thinking it was a doe.

Try a S&B Ultra short 3-20, have one on a rifle of mine i've used to hunt and love it.

 

[Glassaholic]

I hope vortex comes out with fury 6000 LRF Bino’s with ABS. Built in compass with Bluetooth so you can connect to a kestrel. Is that to much to ask for?

It is not too much to ask But I'd like to see a Razor LRF Bino as well, the glass in the Fury always has me looking at Leica, but if they made a Razor LRF with Bluetooth and Kestrel connectivity I would never think of Leica again.

 

[lte82]

Unless I'm a lefty I never had an issue with the S&B illumination.

And if you run it on a AI or other 60 degree throw bolt you won't even as a lefty.

 

[Meety Peety]

I hope vortex comes out with fury 6000 LRF Bino’s with ABS. Built in compass with Bluetooth so you can connect to a kestrel. Is that to much to ask for?

I'd say we are a lot closer to what you want then what I want.. which is a 15x56 with a reticle, LRF and UHD glass. Or leica could just put a reticle in the 3200.coms and I would be happy with that even at 10x.

 

[Glassaholic]

Try a S&B Ultra short 3-20, have one on a rifle of mine i've used to hunt and love it.

These are some of the best crossover scopes out, I've had the Schmidt US, Kahles K318i and ZCO ZC420 all on hunting rigs at one time or another. Love the Premier LT/TT315M concept but I've always wanted a bit more than 15x at the top, but to get that you have to gain weight. The Bushnell LRHSi/LRTSi has always been a great crossover but the 4.5-18 has limited FOV so if this new Elite Tactical that has been rumored is something more in the 4-20 range with increased FOV, well now we're talking. That or a new AMG 4-20x50 (or probably anything from the AMG group) would really shake things up a bit. I think the market is ripe for a good crossover scope that offers great FOV, a good magnification range and weights under 27oz. There was some rumor the Razor LHT 3-15 might come out in FFP form, but 3-15 is so 2010. Until then, I think the Ultra Shorts are the best ticket for a crossover scope on our long range/hunting rigs. Now if we can get more competitions like Scott's Hornady challenge in Colorado this year where rules basically limit you to your hunting rig (nothing over 14lbs IRRC), I think more manufacturer's would lift an eyebrow, but I understand that those of us wanting a lightweight, FFP optic has been more of a niche market, that is until the AMG surprised us back in 2016 - when every manufacture was looking at 3-15's and 5-25's that weighed in the mid 30's, Vortex comes out with a rather plain 4x 6-24x50 that ended up being eaten up by the market, why... because it was 28oz. I had hoped this concept would have awoken other manufacturers but it's been 4 years and we simply have not seen much from anyone else - at least not higher end.

 

[YF12A]

Throwing this out here. How about a Minox ZP in 7x35 or 8x40 while keeping the quality glass, Just saying,,,

 

[beetroot]

You actually have that backwards. The hunting market is huge.. many times greater than the tactical/competitive shooters. There are over one million hunting licenses sold between Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania every year.

But what's occurring is tactical scopes are crossing over into hunting. But scope manufacturers sell an awful lot of $300 hunting scopes for every one $1500 tactical scope.

Agreed.
There are a few good FFP scopes in 3-18x44ish range that aren't too heavy, but bar the Bushnell LRHS (that's discontinued) and the Meopta Optika6 most options are over 1500.

I feel that the first big manufacturer to release a fit for purpose FFP crossover scope for around $800 will hit the jackpot.
The Leupold VX5/VX6 or Razor LHT would be prime candidates, the PST G2 could loose a couple of ounces and get better suited turrets, or perhaps the rumored new Bushnell will be just what folks here are asking.

If Leupold were to make a FFP version of the VX5 3-15x44 with a good reticle or a 30mm 4-20x50 I'd likely put them on all my rifles barr my PRS rifle.

 

[beetroot]

The Bushnell LRHSi/LRTSi has always been a great crossover but the 4.5-18 has limited FOV so if this new Elite Tactical that has been rumored is something more in the 4-20 range with increased FOV, well now we're talking. That or a new AMG 4-20x50 (or probably anything from the AMG group) would really shake things up a bit. I think the market is ripe for a good crossover scope that offers great FOV, a good magnification range and weights under 27oz. There was some rumor the Razor LHT 3-15 might come out in FFP form, but 3-15 is so 2010.

101% agree.
As I said to Birddogs post I think a light-ish weight, 30mm, FFP scope in the $800-$1000 range with FIT FOR PURPOSE reticle and turrets done well would sell like hotcakes. A lot of folk are already sold on the idea of FFP for a hunting scope but it needs to be well executed.
I've been following this exact topic for a few years now, there are people willing to spend more for the right scope but I think if a sub $1000 scope can tick all these boxes it'll have huge market appeal. A 4-20x50 with a good FOV would be excellent.

 

[Burdy]

101% agree.
As I said to Birddogs post I think a light-ish weight, 30mm, FFP scope in the $800-$1000 range with FIT FOR PURPOSE reticle and turrets done well would sell like hotcakes. A lot of folk are already sold on the idea of FFP for a hunting scope but it needs to be well executed.
I've been following this exact topic for a few years now, there are people willing to spend more for the right scope but I think if a sub $1000 scope can tick all these boxes it'll have huge market appeal. A 4-20x50 with a good FOV would be excellent.

The best crossover hunting scope will come from the first manufacture to get the dual focal plane right along with a good reticle design.

 

[Lawnboi]

You actually have that backwards. The hunting market is huge.. many times greater than the tactical/competitive shooters. There are over one million hunting licenses sold between Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania every year.

But what's occurring is tactical scopes are crossing over into hunting. But scope manufacturers sell an awful lot of $300 hunting scopes for every one $1500 tactical scope.

I can see that. I’d have to agree. However your average hunter isn’t much of a shooter. Like me a lot of hunters are seeing the light and becoming shooters as well. Finding out the old Leupold on a paper plate at 200yds gun isnt as reliable as a proper setup. For that reason I wouldn’t mind seeing the lighter scopes come to market. I just got an nx8 4-32. I’ll probably never use 32x, but as noted on this thread, being ffp it’s not needed. I’m strongly considering just getting another nx8 for a hunting setup but continue to lust over the 40mm options like e 42mm nxs and ATACR.

Options are good though.

 

[clark33]

Nothing crazy but I talked with Seekins and while they didn’t give a definitive answer it sounds like they will soon be offering a CF barrel option for their HAVAK’s.

 

[bluepythons]

That would be good for the Havak line. I really wanted to like my Havaks has they had a lot potential and features. Still missing something though, with they could smooth out the action and fix the feeding issues that mine had.

 

[Glassaholic]

Looks like Leupold is finally close to getting their new reticle for the Mark 5HD, rumor has it that it is well thought out (should be, it's only taken them 15 years! )

 

[Glassaholic]

I'm not sure which reticle you are referring to. If you're talking about the reticle Jon Pynch designed for them, I would say its decent. Its still more of a PRS reticle with the grid on 2 mil lines instead of every 1 mil.

Its more like the reticle Jake Vibbert designed for USO.

I just shot a match today in some wind and used holdovers on several stages. Detail is nice when its time to use those holdovers. I'm not a fan of hanging out in the open sections of a reticle trying to line up windage and elevation with the nearest indicators.

Right, I got a chance to see the reticle and it’s exactly as you say if that is the one they bring to production. My brain says the .25 marks will play games with my ability to hold, but I held with the “old” .5 mil hash reticles before and survived. If Burris would come out with the ever elusive illumination for the XTR III and they thicken up the SCR2 reticle that would probably be the ticket for me, but talking about something we hope will come vs something that’s already here is very different, of course assuming Leupold can actually bring this to market soon.

 

[darth_ritis]

I'm surprised the competition shooters aren't asking for a more bulletproof 2x or 3x erector, at least the NRL/PRS type folks. I always hear folks say they usually don't go below 10x or so, and don't often go above 20x, in almost any stage. So a 10-20x or an 8-24x with stunning glass might be attractive. I could see a NF ATACR or S&B PM III (no illumination tumor) or Kahles or ZCO being popular. I know it seems counter-intuitive to "go backwards" but 7x and 8x erector designs seem gimmicky to me. Stronger and more accurate erector assembly, possibly better optical performance, less variation in perceived FFP reticle size, possibly cheaper to make ... if that were the next Nightforce ATACR and the optical bell didn't rotate with magnification, I'd buy a handful.

 

[jzerfoss]

I'm surprised the competition shooters aren't asking for a more bulletproof 2x or 3x erector, at least the NRL/PRS type folks. I always hear folks say they usually don't go below 10x or so, and don't often go above 20x, in almost any stage. So a 10-20x or an 8-24x with stunning glass might be attractive. I could see a NF ATACR or S&B PM III (no illumination tumor) or Kahles or ZCO being popular. I know it seems counter-intuitive to "go backwards" but 7x and 8x erector designs seem gimmicky to me. Stronger and more accurate erector assembly, possibly better optical performance, less variation in perceived FFP reticle size, possibly cheaper to make ... if that were the next Nightforce ATACR and the optical bell didn't rotate with magnification, I'd buy a handful.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying which is why the 7-35 ATACR is one of my favorite match scopes. It's actually around an 8.5x-35 since it tunnels down to 7x which could be looked at as a negative but I don't use the low end during matches. I actually use the 35x all the time with load development, anytime there's a KYL with low mirage, and on some other stages here and there.

Great feeling clicks, great spacing in between clicks, best IQ under mid $3k, as durable and repeatable as any scope in it's class, great competition reticles with the Mil-C and Mil-XT, and the absolute best deal in the high end used market. It's not perfect but it's definitely a great PRS style competition optic.

I think your idea would flop without some kind of game changing feature because there's is a lot of good choices out there for competition only optics. I think the market is now wanting a do it all match/hunting optic which is why you are seeing these big magnification ranges. Big problem is that when you try to satisfy too large of a group and prioritize certain features you make a certain portion of those people unhappy that what they wanted wasn't prioritized.

If someone does figure out how to make a precision rifle optic with 8x or more power range, ultra short, light weight, feature rich, top end IQ, durable, reliable, reticle choices, very few minor faults, all under 3k they will crush the high end market.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I'm surprised the competition shooters aren't asking for a more bulletproof 2x or 3x erector, at least the NRL/PRS type folks. I always hear folks say they usually don't go below 10x or so, and don't often go above 20x, in almost any stage. So a 10-20x or an 8-24x with stunning glass might be attractive. I could see a NF ATACR or S&B PM III (no illumination tumor) or Kahles or ZCO being popular. I know it seems counter-intuitive to "go backwards" but 7x and 8x erector designs seem gimmicky to me. Stronger and more accurate erector assembly, possibly better optical performance, less variation in perceived FFP reticle size, possibly cheaper to make ... if that were the next Nightforce ATACR and the optical bell didn't rotate with magnification, I'd buy a handful.

Marketing. People aren’t the most logical when it comes to products.

7x erector sounds sexier than 3x. Regardless of how much logic you toss in. And many like the ability for a large high end magnification whether it’s practical or not. So, they get the impractical high end, and manufacturers have to do 7x erectors to give them the practical end they need.

Basically, manufacturers are giving people what the want *and* what they need. Which makes people emotionally happy vs just giving them what they need. We like to feel like we are choosing something rather than being made to take something.

 

[beetroot]

Right, I got a chance to see the reticle and it’s exactly as you say if that is the one they bring to production. My brain says the .25 marks will play games with my ability to hold, but I held with the “old” .5 mil hash reticles before and survived. If Burris would come out with the ever elusive illumination for the XTR III and they thicken up the SCR2 reticle that would probably be the ticket for me, but talking about something we hope will come vs something that’s already here is very different, of course assuming Leupold can actually bring this to market soon.

It's not an easy job design a new reticle.

It's not like they just took an existing design, barely changed it and now just need to send a file in the correct format to the glass manufacturer/reticle engraver to then put the reticle in an existing scope model.

There's a bunch of focus groups, social media, communications department stuff that needs to be done first, not to mention they need to come up with a stupid catchy name for the reticle.

 

[Night Vision Viking]

Due to Covid most brands are having a very significant problem with back ordered product. Just staying on top of current offerings is near impossible for most of them. Some orders that we are placing now we are hearing from 4 to 25 weeks before we will see these products.

Unfortunately this goes for their R&D departments as well.

Imagine if you have a team sitting with high-end CAD stations that are forced to work from home.

 

[ormandj]

Unfortunately this goes for their R&D departments as well.

Imagine if you have a team sitting with high-end CAD stations that are forced to work from home.

I would hope that any company with that scenario had the foresight to have those distributed to the remote workers earlier this year when it was obvious this would be a long-term issue. I don't think the problem is in the early design/FEA/etc phases; it's purely in the prototyping/manufacturing/assembly/supply chain/physical testing side of the house.

 

[Dthomas3523]

It's not an easy job design a new reticle.

It's not like they just took an existing design, barely changed it and now just need to send a file in the correct format to the glass manufacturer/reticle engraver to then put the reticle in an existing scope model.

There's a bunch of focus groups, social media, communications department stuff that needs to be done first, not to mention they need to come up with a stupid catchy name for the reticle.

You’d be surprised how very, very little goes into new reticles.

Usually it’s only a few people involved and the manufacturer is making a decision based on current sales and other such things.

The time it takes companies to release a reticle are much more to do with all the other things they sell and not the actual reticle. I thought like you until I’ve recently learned much more about the how and why behind things.

A company could have a new reticle done in the time it takes their reticle supplier to get their order done. A few weeks or couple months of back and forth with a few test reticles and that’s it for the development.

The older holdup is quantity. It’s obviously cheaper to buy in bulk and a manufacturer has to decide how and when to buy. There are many things that dictate when to.