Rifle Scopes SHOT Show 2021 Rumor Mill and What's Coming

#201
I’ve been on the fence of buying one for a minute now. TBH another scope isn’t very high on the priority list. If it was that’s what I’d be buying. I’m kinda curious though to how much better it is than an NXS 2.5-10x24 across the whole mag range other than being FFP with a lot of extra going on in the reticle. Dunno if it’s worth the gamble but the March 1-10 can be had for a once in a lifetime pre order price. I really don’t think the Vortex would be an unwise purchase. I’ll own one myself once the timing is better. I do wish however, that Vortex designed the center dot to be maybe .1 mil really only for the purpose of 10x load development. For all practical sense what they got going on is very intelligent. Price point can’t be argued with IMO. You’ve got plenty of options in your inventory for load development / scalpel work. The mag range will be excellent for having a big reticle behind a clip on while retaining a clean picture and low fuzz.
 
#202
Glassaholic said:
I think because SHOT was cancelled a lot of mfr’s didn’t feel the pressure to have to announce something sooner than they really should. The Nightforce 4-20x50 I think is the biggest but weighing more than the ZCO 4-20 was not the way I was hoping NF would go. After all the NF fanboys buy them I’m not sure how well it will continue, kind of makes me appreciate the 4-16x42 even more now.

if only someone would come out with a lightweight FFP scope that filled this niche with decent turrets, reticle and glass. Been asking for that for years...
Click to expand...

I am also seeing a trend with several manufacturers toward making a series of announcements through the year rather than announce everything at SHOT. That way, they can be ready with at least some amount of product coming shortly after the announcement.

I think we will see good quality light-ish FFP scope to address this niche before the summer.

ILya
 
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#203
koshkin said:
I am also seeing a trend with several manufacturers toward making a series of announcements through the year rather than announce everything at SHOT. That way, they can be ready with at least some amount of product coming shortly after the announcement.

I think we will see good quality light-ish FFP scope to address this niche before the summer.

ILya
Click to expand...
Always value your guidance / recommendation's.
R/
CBDR
 
#204
koshkin said:
I am also seeing a trend with several manufacturers toward making a series of announcements through the year rather than announce everything at SHOT. That way, they can be ready with at least some amount of product coming shortly after the announcement.
Click to expand...
That makes sense, while it is nice to know what is coming, when a mfr announces something that takes more than a year to deliver it takes the steam out of the engine so to speak. Nightforce has been very good at shipping product within a month of announcement and Vortex is also now starting to make sure they can ship product almost immediately.
koshkin said:
I think we will see good quality light-ish FFP scope to address this niche before the summer.
Click to expand...
I think you and I might be thinking of the same scope ;)
 
#208
Glassaholic said:
That makes sense, while it is nice to know what is coming, when a mfr announces something that takes more than a year to deliver it takes the steam out of the engine so to speak. Nightforce has been very good at shipping product within a month of announcement and Vortex is also now starting to make sure they can ship product almost immediately.

I think you and I might be thinking of the same scope ;)
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Is it from a manufacturer that imports and markets their optics in Australia?
I'll be bitter if us Aussies miss out.
 
#211
Glassaholic said:
I think because SHOT was cancelled a lot of mfr’s didn’t feel the pressure to have to announce something sooner than they really should. The Nightforce 4-20x50 I think is the biggest but weighing more than the ZCO 4-20 was not the way I was hoping NF would go. After all the NF fanboys buy them I’m not sure how well it will continue, kind of makes me appreciate the 4-16x42 even more now.

if only someone would come out with a lightweight FFP scope that filled this niche with decent turrets, reticle and glass. Been asking for that for years...
Click to expand...

Weighing .2oz more...
 
#212
918v said:
Weighing .2oz more...
Click to expand...
Point being I did not want another 35oz 4-20 scope. I'm sure the NF will be a big seller as most anything with NF on the side is, but the ZCO is lighter and has considerably more FOV at the low end with the best IQ I've seen in an ultra short so what does the NF give me that the ZCO doesn't already provide?
 
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#213
koshkin said:
Just to be clear: as soon as the scope gets here, I will be providing prodigious commentary on how wonderful it is without ever going into any specifics or mentioning exactly what the scope it or posting any pictures. Just for you.

ILya
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I'll do the same with mine, but I'll post pictures (just not with the scope in it :LOL: )
 
#214
Glassaholic said:
Point being I did not want another 35oz 4-20 scope. I'm sure the NF will be a big seller as most anything with NF on the side is, but the ZCO is lighter and has considerably more FOV at the low end with the best IQ I've seen in an ultra short so what does the NF give me that the ZCO doesn't already provide?
Click to expand...

$600 in your wallet.

Ilya
 
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#215
Glassaholic said:
Point being I did not want another 35oz 4-20 scope. I'm sure the NF will be a big seller as most anything with NF on the side is, but the ZCO is lighter and has considerably more FOV at the low end with the best IQ I've seen in an ultra short so what does the NF give me that the ZCO doesn't already provide?
Click to expand...
NF on the side.
 
#216
Glassaholic said:
Point being I did not want another 35oz 4-20 scope. I'm sure the NF will be a big seller as most anything with NF on the side is, but the ZCO is lighter and has considerably more FOV at the low end with the best IQ I've seen in an ultra short so what does the NF give me that the ZCO doesn't already provide?
Click to expand...

.2oz lighter
 
#217

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#220
Cotay said:
Found this posted on Arfcom. A new 1-10x24 from Primary Arms. Made in Japan (I'm assuming JOL).

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Those are some low profile turrets there! GLx line is their mid range so I’m guessing some compromises at the price point for a 10x FFP scope but thrilled to see they fixed the ACSS reticle to offer mil hash marks or dots for wind for those who dial the solution. Would love to see these reticles make their way into the GLx 2.5-10 scope.
 
#224
#225
bluepythons said:
a 24mm objective on a 1-10, no thanks. These companies forget how important exit pupil is.
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No, they do not. It is very hard to do a scope with 1x on the low end and a large objective without the whole thing becoming huge. The purpose of LPVOs, first and foremost, is to be good on 1x. One of the reasons you see LPVOs with top end magnification above 6x lean increasingly toward FFP designs is so that the reticle would work equally well on 5x as on 10x. The top end of the magnification is there for when conditions an shooting position allow it.

This comes up all the time and I even did an explanation video on the technical reasons a couple of years ago:
 
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#226
@koshkin

I totally agree, 1x is arguably the most important. I use LPVOs daily, and have used them for the last decade. I know I don't hold a candle to your technical knowledge as well and I've learned a ton from you. My point is I would rather have a great 1-4 or 1-6 than a meh 1-8 or 1-10. I have the vortex 1-10 and the atibal 1-10 in addition to several others. From a working point I think there is a point of diminishing returns. More isn't always better. I know right now we are in the battle for magnification and every optic company needs to keep up with the jones' but just because you can doesn't mean you should. I think the vortex is a pretty well executed 1-10 and the atibal is pretty solid when you compare what you are getting for the money. The atibal obviously isn't as nice but is less money. In 1-10 Ill also argue reticle design is also really important. Back to my post, the small exit pupil, depending how the eye relief is as well, makes for challenging real use, in the cold, in awkward positions, low light etc.

I see a 1-10 as more of a specialized LPVO and I would be totally ok with a larger objective, a little more size/weight for a more usable high end as well. I think you've said expense is an issue and I'm ok with paying good money for the perfect LPVO, but IMO it doesn't exist yet.
 
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#227
bluepythons said:
@koshkin

I totally agree, 1x is arguably the most important. I use LPVOs daily, and have used them for the last decade. I know I don't hold a candle to your technical knowledge as well and I've learned a ton from you. My point is I would rather have a great 1-4 or 1-6 than a meh 1-8 or 1-10. I have the vortex 1-10 and the atibal 1-10 in addition to several others. From a working point I think there is a point of diminishing returns. More isn't always better. I know right now we are in the battle for magnification and every optic company needs to keep up with the jones' but just because you can doesn't mean you should. I think the vortex is a pretty well executed 1-10 and the atibal is pretty solid when you compare what you are getting for the money. The atibal obviously isn't as nice but is less money. In 1-10 Ill also argue reticle design is also really important. Back to my post, the small exit pupil, depending how the eye relief is as well, makes for challenging real use, in the cold, in awkward positions, low light etc.

I see a 1-10 as more of a specialized LPVO and I would be totally ok with a larger objective, a little more size/weight for a more usable high end as well. I think you've said expense is an issue and I'm ok with paying good money for the perfect LPVO, but IMO it doesn't exist yet.
Click to expand...

That's a fair point. I thought that Atibal was not worth the money, but I like the Razor Gen3 a lot. For me, having a bit more magnification is not a requirement, but it is nice to have even with a smallish objective, so the price difference between Gen2 1-6x24 and Gen3 1-10x24 is worth it to me. They both work about equally well for me on 1x, so the downside is the price. Going from Gen2 to Gen3, the sacrifice is my wallet.

ILya
 
#228
koshkin said:
That's a fair point. I thought that Atibal was not worth the money, but I like the Razor Gen3 a lot. For me, having a bit more magnification is not a requirement, but it is nice to have even with a smallish objective, so the price difference between Gen2 1-6x24 and Gen3 1-10x24 is worth it to me. They both work about equally well for me on 1x, so the downside is the price. Going from Gen2 to Gen3, the sacrifice is my wallet.

ILya
Click to expand...
I like the Gen 3 a lot more and one should as its obviously a nicer optic, the atibal I think is fair for the price but it has its quirks. Mainly the reticle and turrets, but if someone wanted a 1-10 and on a budget, well not everyone can afford a vortex. Call me crazy but the 1x on 1-10 for some reason I like a little better when illuminated. My gen 2 has the JM reticle so a little different and SFP vs FFP. In some ways though I wish the Gen 3 reticle was a little less busy, this isnt a long range PRS optic so I wouldn't mind getting rid of some of the christmas tree.

Really curios when they expand the Gen 3 lineup. I would love to see some new razors.
 
#229
Eurooptic has the k525i DLR listed now, only $150 more than the standard.
But the total price being $3549 with makes the comparison against the ZCO even more relevant.
 
#232
bluepythons said:
I like the Gen 3 a lot more and one should as its obviously a nicer optic, the atibal I think is fair for the price but it has its quirks. Mainly the reticle and turrets, but if someone wanted a 1-10 and on a budget, well not everyone can afford a vortex. Call me crazy but the 1x on 1-10 for some reason I like a little better when illuminated. My gen 2 has the JM reticle so a little different and SFP vs FFP. In some ways though I wish the Gen 3 reticle was a little less busy, this isnt a long range PRS optic so I wouldn't mind getting rid of some of the christmas tree.

Really curios when they expand the Gen 3 lineup. I would love to see some new razors.
Click to expand...

I like the Gen3 reticle, although I can make a good case for the MDR-T6 in the S&B.

The Gen3 reticle is sized the way it is so that you could get to 900-1000 yards with 308 or something similar without touching the turrets. It is not a PRS optics, but it is designed to stretch the range a little more than you can easily do with the Gen2 1-6x or similar designs.

That is sorta one of the things where Atibal falls flat on its face: the reticle. It simply does not fit the scope. With the Atibal, if I want to stretch the distance a little bit, I pretty much have to use the turrets. Except they do not track well.

In general, I thought Atibal was a good flashlight, but a so so scope. The GRSC version of that design worked much better for me simply because the reticle, while busy and needing some getting used to, was far more functional beyond MPBR.

With the S&B MDR-T6, the reticle got me out to about 600 and I dialed beyond that. However, that turret tracks perfectly.

After a couple of discussions here and a few other places, I think I am going to do a livecast on LPVOs tomorrow night. I think you are and I have some application disagreements, but are largely on the same page. However, I found so much fiery and opinionated nonsense out there, that going back to the basics for a bit seemed like a good idea.


ILya
 
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#233
CBDR said:
I'm interested in hearing your POV on the 1 x 10 Vortex. My current AR build is just about complete in 6.5G. I have never used a LPVO.
Current optic inventory: Kahles 6x24i & 3x18i, TT 3x15M, S&B Ultra Short 5x20 & Swarovski Z6 2X15.
Trying to keep this one short for NV use. Feedback welcome
Click to expand...
If you have the Scratch, the S&B 1-8CC is the top dog right now, but the G3 razor is less than half the price and 95% the optic.
 
#234
beetroot said:
Eurooptic has the k525i DLR listed now, only $150 more than the standard.
But the total price being $3549 with makes the comparison against the ZCO even more relevant.
Click to expand...
Yea the Kahles at $27-800 is a fair price. Anythning after that might as well spend more for the ZCO. I would rather have a ZP5 than a Kahles however.
 
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#243
How about Minox providing a slightly thicker version of the MR4 reticle in a new “ultra short” model? ZP5 line that has a 3-18 mag range with parallax starting at 11 yards. I don’t really get a hard on for really short scopes but a 13-14 inch model in this configuration would be nice from them too.
 
#244
Chasing3 said:
How about Minox providing a slightly thicker version of the MR4 reticle in a new “ultra short” model? ZP5 line that has a 3-18 mag range with parallax starting at 11 yards. I don’t really get a hard on for really short scopes but a 13-14 inch model in this configuration would be nice from them too.
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Minox and Blaser have a relationship now, Blaser has their GSO designed Infinity 4-20 FFP scope but with limited 8 mil turrets and a reticle that would bore most hunters. If Minox could add their turrets and one of their reticles like the MR4 to this design they would have something to get excited about, unfortunately with several attempts to persuade Minox in this direction they don't seem to have an interest (or so they say).
 
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#246
Glassaholic said:
Minox and Blaser have a relationship now, Blaser has their GSO designed Infinity 4-20 FFP scope but with limited 8 mil turrets and a reticle that would bore most hunters. If Minox could add their turrets and one of their reticles like the MR4 to this design they would have something to get excited about, unfortunately with several attempts to persuade Minox in this direction they don't seem to have an interest (or so they say).
Click to expand...
I’ve enquired if Blaser were intending in adding different reticles with wind holds and they said not at this time.
missed opportunity.
 
#247
Glassaholic said:
Minox and Blaser have a relationship now, Blaser has their GSO designed Infinity 4-20 FFP scope but with limited 8 mil turrets and a reticle that would bore most hunters. If Minox could add their turrets and one of their reticles like the MR4 to this design they would have something to get excited about, unfortunately with several attempts to persuade Minox in this direction they don't seem to have an interest (or so they say).
Click to expand...
A 4-20x50 with an MR4 reticle would be the dog's bollocks!
If Minox did that based in the new LR scope in that price range I'd be ecstatic.
 
#248
Just Macca said:
I’ve enquired if Blaser were intending in adding different reticles with wind holds and they said not at this time.
missed opportunity.
Click to expand...
100% agree, if they don't want a full in PRS type tree reticle atleast something like the Swarovski 4w reticle or Leupold windage would be a big improvement.
 
#249
beetroot said:
100% agree, if they don't want a full in PRS type tree reticle atleast something like the Swarovski 4w reticle or Leupold windage would be a big improvement.
Click to expand...
I don’t honestly have the money spare that it would cost - but I’d be surprised if the Blaser custom shop wouldn’t entertain a one off 2.8-20 or 4-20 with a MR4 reticle.

I’m a Blaser shooter so aside from the limited travel, it would be the absolute perfect scope to end all crossover target/hunting scopes.
 
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#250
Just Macca said:
I’ve enquired if Blaser were intending in adding different reticles with wind holds and they said not at this time.
missed opportunity.
Click to expand...
That's what Blaser told me as well :( I could live with 8 mil turrets for my crossover rifle as that gets me well past 1000 yards; however, the reticle has got to have wind holds, why the European manufacturers have such an aversion to wind holds baffles me.
 
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