I'm OK with the reticle choices. I was not liking the chevron's because I'm effin retarded, and am happy the nova is coming, but I may still go back to a chev reticle to get FFP if I feel I may need that.
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SHOT SHOW 2024 NEW RIFLESCOPES
- Thread starter Hrgriffin
- Start date
I just want something with a little more info in it than drops. Simple trees seem ideal to me on glass that isn't ideal for adjusting turrets. I know a lot of other people like their bog standard mil dots though, so I'm sure it works great for them.
I totally like the concept but my concern is the weight of the mounting system. I mention this because my Genesis 4-40 has a similar mounting system and its very heavy.
So compact lighter weight scope plus heavy mounting system = nope not what I envision.
This is going to sell a lot of scopes for March.
You don't have to shop for 2 separate things, a scope and a set of rings when you buy a scope. It's lined up right by U taking it out of the box and putting it on your rifle (unless there's something wrong w/your rifle).
No scuffs/scratches from the rings to knock the price of your scope down if you ever decide to sell it.
If you're a "fumble fingers"/accident prone "Klutz" who doesn't pay attention to detail, you can still get your scope on right.
Whatever the minuses are this is too convenient to go away.
You don't have to shop for 2 separate things, a scope and a set of rings when you buy a scope. It's lined up right by U taking it out of the box and putting it on your rifle (unless there's something wrong w/your rifle).
No scuffs/scratches from the rings to knock the price of your scope down if you ever decide to sell it.
If you're a "fumble fingers"/accident prone "Klutz" who doesn't pay attention to detail, you can still get your scope on right.
Whatever the minuses are this is too convenient to go away.
I have a Swarovski z6 with the SR rail. It works well and is rock solid. The biggest plus is that you have far more flexibility in placement for eyerelief since you can slide back and forth quite a bit without the need for cantilever.
I would prefer this or a zeiss rail for all my hunting scopes. For my PRS rifles I can see the March solution being quite nice as long as I can still place a sendit behind it on the picatinny rail and as long as I have sufficient flexibility in height options
Found it and Flux Industries has their sister company Antimatter industries is making them with a motor now and a small cable that goes to the control switch so you can mount the switch where your support hand goes.
If the slide was ~$500, I wonder what one with a motor will be and how reliable.
From a hunting perspective, especially long range, it might be handy to zoom in without disturbing the sight picture.
Probably the juice isn’t worth the squeeze and more complication than worth but good to see innovation this year.
That is a ZCO 4-20 they cutoff before the objective bell to show everyone how thick their tube walls are
Or it's an LPVO POC that wasn't supposed to get out in the wild just yet... That is a ZCO 4-20 they cutoff before the objective bell to show everyone how thick their tube walls are
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Looking at their website: Philippines vs. Japan, SFP, capped small diameter turrets, MOAs only...
You serious ???? i had 4 Genesis scopes.. 4-40 and 6-60... the integral mounting systems is no heavier than any decent conventional one piece ring/mount setup.
Trijicon must hold the record for breaking the sixth commandment the most times with their product
The March-FX 1.5-15X42 has a dual reticle. There was one at the SHOT Show and it was sought after.
I remember that! I had one.
Was the XTR II 1.5-8x28 34mm tube.
Philippine made and glass was not bad from what I can recall.
I was in love until it wouldn't stop flaking off the anodizing from inside the tube. 3 trips to Burris and ultimately a lemon I was able to exchange for their spotter.
That's why I sold mine. I didn't run into that issue but was reading about it happening so often I got paranoid and sold it.
Then I saw the same flaking in my XTRIII. Sent in for cleaning and sold it. Burris has really shit the bed on this. I'm not buying anymore Burris products. It's a shame because I've liked features of Burris scopes for 28yrs.
No one talked about TT or SAI at all which is strange especially with the TT 7-35 being somewhat new to the market. There's been a rumor'd SAI 1-8 for a while but crickets on that, makes me wonder if they decided to try and OEM a 1-10 instead and it's taking a bit longer...
I had my TT 7-35 out in the field for the first time yesterday, its amazing! Clarity is phenomenal and the depth of field is quite impressive.
I stopped by and inquired and they didn't have anything at the show that we haven't already seen.
From everything I saw there, I was most impressed by two companies:
March: Features sets, fit and finish, glass, ergos...I just really love their products from top to bottom. They get a bit wonky on reticles, but things are getting better in that regard. They are a company that listens to its consumers and it is showing. They also don't strike me as a company that makes compromises to hit a certain group of buyers. They build what they build, and the price is the price. I respect that.
Sightron: How in the HELL do they make that S1 series for $239.99-$319.99 MSRP? Optically this scope is very impressive for this price range. I realize they are more old school in feature sets, but if you you have a need for this type of optic without breaking the bank, they are worth looking through.
It almost seems like SHOT has become a playground for new product and if you don't have anything "new" then you are overlooked by the vast majority. Maybe that's why Vortex and some others have pulled out as they do not see the ROI. I would have thought the 7-35 while not anything new would have stirred up more interest
March is truly listening and trying to provide the shooting community with some truly innovative products. True, they aren't cheap but as the premier alpha scope manufacturer from Japan this should be expected. Their build quality/fit and finish is absolutely first rate and I like how they are willing to improve on existing design while still innovating in other areas.
Sightron always flies under the radar for me, I want to say that everything they have is made in Japan but I can't remember for sure, the reason the S1's can sell for that price is because they are still using traditional designs they haven't had to spend boatloads of R&D to come up with so they pass on the savings to the customer. Their turrets are a bit archaic but outside of that they have a solid track record and excellent optical performance to price ratio.
Correct, I believe they told me the S1 line was the only ones made in the Philippines. Regardless, I was impressed optically. As @Glassaholic mentioned, I noticed the turrets of the S1 to be really mushy but on a set-it-and-forget-it scope like this it's a bit less of a concern.
That would make sense from a price standpoint as well. A lot of people get hung up with Philippine manufacture, but historically they have been pretty solid for the price point.
It was a pleasure watching the March video and nice seeing Mari Morita who seems as nice/sincere as she comes across in her emails.
She was amazingly sweet. When she found out I brought my children with me to Vegas, she gave me Japanese cookies to bring back to our hotel room for them.
She is also very knowledgeable about the March products and also competes in F-class.
Can confirm, spoke to her for a long time at SHOT as well, super nice lady and very knowledgeable on optics.
Thank you for sharing, have no idea who Moondog is but nice to see Mari and March scopes.
A few thoughts here, their Genesis scopes are extremely unique within the industry, as Mari mentioned the scope always remains at optical center even if you crank the turret all the way out to 114 mrad (on the 6-60x56 model).
I am very excited about the 5-42x56 Gen2 scope. I reviewed the 5-42x56 (Gen1) alongside the new Schmidt 5-45x56 a while back and found the edge distortion on that first iteration to be a bit more than I'd prefer; however, center resolution was actually better than the Schmidt. I have seen the 5-42x56 Gen2 and I can confidently say it is a vast improvement on edge to edge clarity, I do not know what the wizards did at March but they managed to greatly improve the optical experience of this scope especially in the important 10-25x range where this scope is designed to excel. Also, those Shuriken lock turrets are the real deal and worthy to be mentioned alongside Schmidt DT II+ and TT with regard to feel and feedback.
At the 3 minute mark Gary mentions the 8-80x56 as having the best optics of any rifle scope ever made (he does qualify that by saying "in my opinion"), well, I would have to disagree. I have experience with the 8-80x56 Majesta and while it is very impressive for the design I did not find it to have better glass than say TT, ZCO, et al but I also think that is part of the 10x erector design even with a SFP scope. Also, when it comes to the PRS/ELR Goldilocks zone (10-20x) I found the 5-42x56 Gen2 to offer better performance than the 8-80x56 Majesta. I also would agree to disagree with his comments regarding the scope cutting through mirage, yes, it does a great job with mirage but at magnifications above 30x I still found it to magnify the distortion vs. cutting through the distortion. I realize that dynamic shooting sports like PRS and other ELR style comps are different from static shooting sports like F class, but mirage is mirage and doing extensive tests at 1000 yards I have found TT and ZCO to be among the best scopes at managing mirage above 15x; however, even these scopes are challenged beyond 1000 yards which typically limits magnification to around 15x even out to 1.5 miles (which is as far as I've shot) and yes, you can effectively shoot out to 1.5 miles with 15x magnification (it is misleading to think that you need higher magnification to shoot longer distances). Again, the March High Master (HM - sandwich dual-super ED design) is impressive and offers the best I've seen yet from March (with their 5-42x56 and 4.5-28x52 in the FFP market - Genesis too) they are not quite up to the overall IQ that TT and ZCO (and potentially the new Schmidt 6-36) offerings; however, with their new 5-42x56 Gen2 - I did preliminary tests with this scope side by side with TT 5-25 and TT 7-35 and have to say that from 5-20x the March scope appeared to have the upper hand in color, contrast and resolution and with its super wide 25° FOV had impressive edge to edge clarity; from 20-25x it seemed about on par with TT and above 25x the TT 7-35 had an edge in overall IQ. I really think March did their homework with the Gen2 version of the 5-42x56 HM and it will offer a much better experience for PRS/ELR sports than the previous generation.
Also, at around the 8:30 mark Gary talks about Aluminium, hmmm, I don't know what this is, maybe a new alloy from Wakanda blending Vibranium and Aluminum?
At the 13 minute mark they talk about the March 1-10x24 and it's adjustable parallax, a year ago they would be correct in that they were the first 1-10 LPVO to have an adjustable parallax, but the new Delta Stryker 1-10x28 also has adjustable parallax (10m - infinity).
What wasn't really highlighted much in this video was the dual focal plane reticle, yes, it was mentioned briefly but I don't think Moondog really understood what they were saying. The DF-TR2B actually has two reticles, it has solid crosshair with a fiber illuminated (daylight bright) center dot in the second focal plane, but it also has hashmark subtensions and tree dots in the first focal plane, so if using with 1-10x24 shorty or with the new 1.5-15x42 FFP scopes, at bottom magnification you have a very easy to see center crosshair (even without illumination) and then crank up the illumination and you have a daylight bright center dot and then as you increase magnification you begin to see the hash marks and tree dots for assisting with longer range shots. Even with it's limitations, the March 1.5-15x42 is my favorite MPVO scope on the market right now and would be an excellent choice for crossover use as well, as long as the 42mm objective doesn't hinder you or the somewhat finicky nature of the design (due to being such a short focal length and 10x erector). If wish they would have highlighted the 1.5-15x42 scope with Moondog as that is my favorite release from last year.
I really like that March pushes so many boundaries of optical engineering but I would also like to see March take a step back and make a 6x FFP design that uses a longer focal length (longer body) for an extremely forgiving (eyebox, DOF, parallax) design with superb optical characteristics because I truly think they could make a scope that could match or beat TT in overall IQ based on what I've seen so far with the 5-42x56 Gen2. If they did something like a 6-36x56 with their 25° eyepiece they could give some serious competition to the new Schmidt 6-36 especially since Schmidt can't sell their 25.8° eyepiece here in the USA and have had to neuter USA 6-36's to 21.66°. Even so I think the new 5-42x56 Gen2 might give the Schmidt a run for it's money especially in the Goldilocks zone of 10-20x...
I would have preferred to have heard more from Mari instead of Gary stepping in and somewhat dominating the conversation from that point on.
I was kinda thinking of getting a schmidt 6-36 but the March 5-42 II is spinning my gears a little more…I like ILya’s tree reticle for it. Usually I need a tree to start with 2 mil wind holds (pdogs, wind, 204 @ 17
) but they way he aligned the #2 with 2 mils might make it doable for me. Helps the eye when holding out in space.
And he used those Mil-XT half-mil dots. Mmmmm.
Or I could buy a Vortex Gen III and save a pile of money lol.
) but they way he aligned the #2 with 2 mils might make it doable for me. Helps the eye when holding out in space. And he used those Mil-XT half-mil dots. Mmmmm.
Or I could buy a Vortex Gen III and save a pile of money lol.
They are not yet in production, but I am excited to see the final production iteration. I really like what ILya did with the TR1 reticle, it is a compelling design.I was kinda thinking of getting a schmidt 6-36 but the March 5-42 II is spinning my gears a little more…I like ILya’s tree reticle for it. Usually I need a tree to start with 2 mil wind holds (pdogs, wind, 204 @ 17
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And he used those Mil-XT half-mil dots. Mmmmm.
Or I could buy a Vortex Gen III and save a pile of money lol.
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I don’t think Glass appreciates mirage and what it does the IQ of a riflescope in the conditions with which Gary is familiar when he speaks about the Majesta. I don’t think Glass has enough experience with a Majesta or any other riflescope, in the conditions that Gary encounters in F-class.
When we shoot F-class competitions, we are aiming at a known target, at a known distance. At 1000 yards, the target frame is 6’ X 6’. The target face is tan in color with an aiming black 44 inches in diameter in the middle of the target. There are concentric rings on the target, with a black one outside the aiming black, and all the others in the aiming black itself. These rings are ¼ inch thick, very thin, and tan in color. The innermost ring is the X-ring and it measures 5 inches in diameter, including the tan line that delimits the ring. This is about 0.5MOA in diameter. The 10-ring is 10 inches in diameter, or about 1.0 MOA. The 9-ring is 20 inches in diameter, about 2.0 MOA. The 8-ring is 30 inches in diameter, about 3.0 MOA and the 7-ring or the aiming black itself is 44 inches in diameter, about 4.5MOA. The lone ring outside the aiming black is 60 inches in diameter, about 6.0MOA.
Now, the distance between the X-ring and the 10-ring is 2.5 inches or 1/4MOA. The distance between the 10-ring and the 9-ring is 5 inches or 0.5MOA and the distance between the 9-ring and the 8-ring is also 5 inches, 0.5MOA. These distances are important.
In an F-class match, we will figure out the wind and estimate the correction needed on the target before the first sighter. Some will dial in a correction in the scope and refine it during sighters. From that point one, most people do not dial in any windage correction during the match. We will play with elevation as the barrel heats up. Instead of correcting with the windage, we will hold off on the target using the rings as the gauge.
In order to be as precise as possible, we favor high magnification riflescopes that have very thin reticles; in other words, high mag SFP riflescopes. By high magnification, I mean north of 40X.
Let’s talk real mirage now. At 40X and beyond, mirage will distort the IQ of the target in ways that can be downright amusing if it wasn’t impacting your aim. I have been shooting at that target with a high mag riflescope for about 17 years now. In lower quality scope, the round aiming point was actually changing shape, “like a crazed amoeba on crack”, pulsating in the eyepiece. There was no semblance of rings, only a pulsating blob. In better quality scopes, the image of the aiming black is roundish, but the rings simply cannot be distinguished at higher mags. You’re holding off on the target by gauging the size of the roundish blob. Most people elect to wind down the magnification to diminish the effects of mirage on the IQ of the target, preferring to surrender the precision afforded by higher magnification in order to be able to somewhat discern the rings.
The March-X 10-60X56 HM had its IQ less affected by mirage than any other riflescope at 50X and beyond. While people using lesser optics were dialing down the magnification trying to deal with mirage, those with the March HM could remain at high magnification and continue placing their shots precisely.
Then the Majesta appeared and its increased resistance to mirage allows me and others to stay at 80X throughout the day, regardless of mirage. The lone Majesta user in 2022 won the US Nationals in F-Open in Phoenix (at 75X to 80X all week). There were many Majestas at the 2023 US Nationals, again in Phoenix, when the champion and runner-up were both using Majestas. One was using 60X all the time, (personal preference) and the other was using 80X all the time.
Now, let’s be clear here. Mirage will degrade the IQ of the target in ANY riflescope. It’s just that in the Majesta, while the image of the target will not win any photography prizes, the target remains shootable. The aiming black is round, and the rings are still distinct and usable. You can differentiate between the X-ring and the 10-ring and so on, at 80X.
The Majesta also allows you to discern the mirage in the eyepiece. We spend a lot of time on the spotting scope trying to figure out what the mirage river is showing us, and when we transition to the Majesta, we can detect any change in mirage conditions just as we are getting ready to shoot. If something changes before the trigger is pressed, it will show in the Majesta and you can act on it.
Finally, the Majesta has an AAOV of 25°, with provides a much larger FOV at any magnification (all the way to 80X) compared to any other riflescope on the planet except for the March-FX 5-42X56 HM (gen 1 or 2), with its 26° AAOV. While I can’t read his mind, when Gary says that in his opinion, the Majesta has the best optics of any riflescope ever made, I should think he is taking into consideration the magnification, the FOV and the mirage resistance of the Majesta; no other riflescope on the planet approaches this combination.
I had 4 Genesis scopes..2 x 4-40 and 2 x 6-60. These had superb glass!! absolutely stunning...BUT !!!! I also hade huge issues with them when mounted on a Desert Tech 50BMG.
After each firing the scopes would go completely out of focus. Also they would NOT hold Zero...
It was such a pity as i really liked them, ................clarity, reticule....
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I always follow the mantra never interrupt a woman while she is working.
This is very true and should be obvious. The reverse would also be true that Gary is not familiar with my conditions and my experience. We are both stating opinions according to our experiences; however, Gary gave no qualification for his claim with regard to a particular sport or style of shooting. Maybe its my OCD but details matter. This is also why I have difficulty with many marketing claims as they tend to obfuscate and embellish in such a way that borders on misleading, but that is their job.
I need to bookmark this as it is probably one of the best descriptions of F-Class I have read. I know we’ve talked about this before Denys but I always get lost in translation but in reading the above something clicked.
It sounds like for F Class this scope (Majesta) is doing remarkably well in the short amount of time since its release. It is true that I was comparing the Majesta to alpha class FFP optics which was not an ideal comparison, but that’s my wheel house and based on some of the claims I was expecting for the glass to completely blow the alpha class FFP scopes out of the water (within the confines of their mag ranges) and that is not what I found. Again, I’m not saying the Majesta wasn't impressive but my expectations were set so high that I was a bit baffled at what I was seeing. Keeping in mind these are completely different scopes intended for different applications. Kudo’s to March for putting out such an incredible design.
Sounds like this gives F-Class shooters a distinct advantage specific to their sport.
I know previously you were using the 10-60x56 HM, has the Majesta shown a considerable improvement within the same mag range over the 10-60?
Details matter… the Nightforce NX8 has greater AFOV than 26 and the new Schmidt 6-36 (euro) offers 26 as well. That said, March has one of the best lineups of wide angle scopes, but larger than any other scope on the planet is a statement that should be qualified with further detail.
If you remove the magnification qualification the new Schmidt 6-36 (euro) would appear to rival that statement, but yes, since no other scope offers 80x magnification it would be difficult, impossible actually, for any other scope to even be considered.
Clearly, I am not an F Class shooter, nor do I have any desire to be. But I do know optics pretty well and I know what my eye see’s and what my eye likes and I try to give fair and honest reviews of scopes based on that within the confines of what works for my style of shooting which aligns with likely the majority of shooters on this site - dynamic shooting, long range shooting, ELR shooting, hunting. Every now and then I venture out into other types of shooting but the above is definitely where I spend the majority of my time.
I am just happy you both are so incredibly contributory to the knowledge base on this forum.
I agree, I appreciate Denys' (and others) points of view, they have expertise in different fields and what works for me may not always work for you and vise versa. That's part of what makes this forum so beneficial, sure we sometimes ruffle some feathers but in the end most debates have a beneficial end when dealing with reasonable members. It's refreshing honestly.
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