Should I be content or disappointed with these groups???

Twisted

Twisted

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 12, 2009
508
1
46
NW Oregon
www.twistedfirearms.com
#1
Remington 700 in .260, trued action, Krieger 24" barrel, bedded in a B&C stock, Premier Heritage 3-15 in Seekins rings, Timney, Badger, etc. etc.

142gr SMK's in Nosler brass with a muzzle velocity of 2820.

This rifle has about 400 rounds through it. I developed the load utilizing the OCW method. First 100 rounds were promising, very promising. Right about at the 100 round mark I shot a 5 round group, off the bench, and it was .58 MOA. That was just a sit down, shoot a single 5 round group, and call it a day cause it obviously worked. Should have shot a couple more just to see if it would keep doing it.

Now at the 400 mark I shot some groups last week at 100 yards and were about an inch average. I was not happy, wasn't sure what was up, figured I'd give the rifle a good cleaning since it hadn't had one since Kettle Falls. While I was at it I cleaned up some of the bedding which I do not believe was an issue but wanted to make sure. Went out tonight and shot a few rounds to foul things up then shot two 5 round groups. Both just under an inch (.847 MOA and .775 MOA). Should I be pissed about these or is this sound decent? For some reason I expect 1/2" groups out of this rifle but I'm not getting them. Am I simply expecting too much or should I keep looking for the "problem" whatever it is. Part of me wonders if this isn't a mental block because I'm so used to seeing groups on shoot n see targets which makes them look way more impressive than plain paper.

Keep in mind I'm at a max magnification of 15x which is good but probably not as high as most folks. I'm also showing the only two real groups I shot tonight. If I shot ten more groups I may get some worse but may get some better and then would have my 1/2" group to pick out and show off but that isn't what I want. I want consistent small groups and just don't feel like I'm getting what I should.

Input greatly appreciated.

1012020_4430791146912_1438305920_n.jpg
 
#3
Try dry firing about 50 times before you fire anything. Really focus on your fundamentals, then shoot a group and see what you get. I know I always want to blame the rifle when I shoot some bad groups, when most of the time I'm messing something up on my side.

Were you shooting off of bags? Possible barrel contact?

When you were working up your loads, were you shooting the same setup on the bench as you were for both of these groups?

Was everything torqued down again after cleaning up you bedding?

Just some different paths I was thinking.
 
#4
I wouldn't be happy either.
My thoughts such as they are;
1-reloading issues. Is this the same lot of brass? How many loadings? Annealed recently? I have a hunch this could be it.
2-reloading technique. Change something?
3-base loose? Rings loose?
4-old (bad) habits?

Keep us updated. I love this part of it, troubleshooting. (pun intended)
 
#8
Trued action and Krieger barrel....you can get one-hole groups. ;) Keep at it. Some guns like the 142SMK and some don't. Give the Amax and Berger's a try too.

My sweet spot with the 142SMK was 40.5gr of H4350...but that was also a 6.5CM.
 
#9
Victory said:
Try dry firing about 50 times before you fire anything. Really focus on your fundamentals, then shoot a group and see what you get. I know I always want to blame the rifle when I shoot some bad groups, when most of the time I'm messing something up on my side.
Click to expand...

This is GREAT advice. I remember doing Dime/Washer drills in Basic Training and we could not even go to the firing line to zero without being able to squeeze off ten in a row without having the dime not fall off the cleaning rod in the barrel of our M16's. Doing this in the prone unsupported position is not as easy as it sounds. Try it sometime.

Practicing the basic fundamentals is where I would start first. Little things help in precision shooting. Even cutting back on the caffeine the day you shoot may make a difference.
 
#10
from my mostly stock r700 .308 I would be content, but if my worked over 6.5 cm did this I would be finding the culprit. try letting someone else fire the gun. that would help you distinguish between you or the gun.
 
#11
Are you seating the bullet off the ogive or the tip of your bullet? Measuring COL from the ogive is much more accurate due to the fact that the length if a bullet can vary even from the same lot. Also are you using a different lot from when you shot your good groups?
 
#14
I shot my AI AE for the first time last weekend. Before that, my experience with centerfire rifles is somewhere between 10 and 50 bullets.
My largest group was 0,75" at 100m, best <0,25". So no, I would not be happy with this.
 
#15
Defusion said:
I shot my AI AE for the first time last weekend. Before that, my experience with centerfire rifles is somewhere between 10 and 50 bullets.
My largest group was 0,75" at 100m, best <0,25". So no, I would not be happy with this.
Click to expand...

No offense but that is like comparing Apples to Oranges. For what that thing runs it'd better freaking shoot
 
#17
I am currently shooting the same kind of groups, last year I was shooting a lot better but I'm not sure if shooting this winter in the cold made me develop bad habits or what is going on. I am disappointed with the group size, even if I have a good group going, I tend to slap the trigger on one and ruin it.
 
#18
Bradu said:
I am currently shooting the same kind of groups, last year I was shooting a lot better but I'm not sure if shooting this winter in the cold made me develop bad habits or what is going on. I am disappointed with the group size, even if I have a good group going, I tend to slap the trigger on one and ruin it.
Click to expand...

What are you running for a trigger? Maybe it's too heavy?
 
#20
My theory is 3 things. 1) everybody has shitty days at the range. No matter what kind of high end rifle. It just happens 2) powder bullet combos sometimes just won't shoot 3) shooter error and bad technique ect... IMHO
 
#21
JGorski said:
What are you running for a trigger? Maybe it's too heavy?
Click to expand...

Depends on the rifle but a Jewell, Timney and factory AI lightened up a little. I can definitely tell with the AI that it is part of the problem since I get more horizontal stringing with it. The other triggers are between 1 1/2 and 2 pounds.
 
#22
Bradu said:
Depends on the rifle but a Jewell, Timney and factory AI lightened up a little. I can definitely tell with the AI that it is part of the problem since I get more horizontal stringing with it. The other triggers are between 1 1/2 and 2 pounds.
Click to expand...


OMG, thats way too heavy for me, my dear rifles are lighter than that. My CG is set at 11oz, my Jewells are 6oz. My trigger finger would get sore if I shot all day with a 2lbs trigger, seriously.
 
#23
I been wanting to take them down to a pound but I think that would be a bad idea with the wife learning to shoot on some of these guns.
 
#24
I guess my first question is, what is the twist on the barrel? Was the chamber cut match, long for specific bullets. Have you been shooting different grains or just changing powder. Have you had anyone one else shoot the gun.
 
#25
Wow, lots of great info here guys. After my "disappointing" evening at the range I went to the gym to sweat it out and think about it until pretty late and may have overdone it. My body decided 12 hours of sleep was required but apparently gave you all tons of time to help me out.

I honestly didn't think anyone would mention the whole caffeine thing but I did purposely not drink any after lunch knowing I would be heading to the range. I don't think there were any outside influences on me that effected these. It was an awesome evening weather speaking. It has been in the 90's and muggy since last week in Portland. Last night was the first night out of the weather warning, it was about 70 with a light breeze. You could tell how happy people in general were everywhere just because of the break in weather.

Just to clarify, this rifle is the exact same as it has been since test shot numero uno aside from lightening the trigger. It has always had a Timney in it in stock form but I finally adjusted it down. I understand this is a variable in it all but could it really effect things worse?

The loads were originally on new Nosler brass but since then have been identical other than the brass is on it's second firing. It was full length sized, did not need trimmed as it went back to the exact length of the new brass. The bullets, powder, primers, are all from the exact same lot. My reloading equipment is identical and nothing has been changed or moved. COAL is 2.850 as it has been since day 1.

I was in a good mood, not rushed, had that particular range all to myself, was feeling good. I'm confident in all 10 of those shots. I am not the best shooter in the world but I've done it long enough that I know/practice the basics. I even took an extra few seconds with each shot last night to mentally go over them all, NPA, body position, breathing, focus on crosshairs, clear view, etc. etc. The only possible variance that I can't recall was my trigger follow through. For some reason I realized afterwards that I wasn't paying close attention to it but I've always had great follow through on any rifle I shoot. Enough to wear I've been "made fun of" by friends for having too good of a follow through not allowing certain firearms to reset properly cause they needed to be slapped.

The barrel is a 8.5 twist Krieger varminter profile cut to 24". The shop that built the rifle has been turning out great work and even tested this rifle at 1/2 moa with off the shelf hunting ammo before they handed it back over. I believe their work to be correct and this not to be an issue with anything on their part. This was of course in their own stock/chassis along with their own optics. While I'm not eliminating my optics and stock as the issue, I do believe that they are correct. The barrel floats with room to give all the way back to the recoil lug. I can't flex the stock enough to make it touch anywhere. I bedded the action myself and I'm happy with it. I bedded the base, it is not pinned, I've never pinned one and have never had an issue. Scope is a Premier Heritage in Seekins rings. Everything was torqued to spec and loctite was used.

Now, to throw things even more of a curve, I just went through all my notes/pictures on this rifle. When I was doing load development the rifle only had about 20 rounds through it. Looking at the 7 or 8 groups I shot using the OCW method, none of the groups are better than what I shot last night, in fact they look worse, but I recall chalking that up to the barrel not being totally broke in and the fact there was a chrono strapped to my barrel. After that load development session I didn't shoot a group on paper for a long time. I put it to work the next week on steel from 400-1300 and it performed awesome. Most of which were first round hits calculated using the Shooter app. Wind calls were much easier than the 308 had been, I was floored and stoked for this rifle. Shortly after that I shot a group just to confirm and build confidence, 1.2" group drilling out the center of the target, it was the only 5 rounds I shot that day. Couple weeks later I shot steel again, in nasty winds, out to 900, and was getting hits without much issue, on difficult small targets. I then shot Kettle Falls which is always challenging, and struggled but put that blame on me, not the rifle.

Now I'm at today with the "struggles" I'm seeing. So in all reality, this rifle has only shot 1/2" groups twice, once by the gunsmith with off the shelf soft tip ammo, and once by me, the only 5 rounds of the day, could have been a "lucky" 5 round group. So now I'm in a conundrum. My concern is obviously not 100 yard groups but shooting steel at distance. Is it possible that the current setup and ammo will treat me awesome at that despite the poor short range groups? I need to put it on paper at some distance to see what it will do to figure that one out buy my gut tells me I'll just be disapointed.

Secondly, many of you have pointed out that my bullet choice may not be the best one simply cause my barrel doesn't like it. I never tried any others, others who helped me with the build were shooting 142's with great results so I went straight to it, and stocked up. I may have to see what I can find for other options available in small amounts and see what I can make happen.

I think step one is shoot current at more distance and keep my fingers crossed. Maybe I'll drive to the range today and try that out. Second is to track down some other bullets and see if changing up the load helps.

547440_4115120175335_268366965_n.jpg
 
#26
Have you had someone else shoot it "as is"? Or someone observe you shooting it? Obviously if you're shooting matches like Kettle Falls you know what you're doing but maybe there's something subtle going on?

Mitch

Sent from my SGH-T769 using Tapatalk 2
 
#27
UW Mitch said:
Have you had someone else shoot it "as is"? Or someone observe you shooting it? Obviously if you're shooting matches like Kettle Falls you know what you're doing but maybe there's something subtle going on?

Mitch

Sent from my SGH-T769 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

I have not but I should at the least have someone who knows how to shoot observe to make sure I'm not missing something. I'm not against letting someone else shoot it, just haven't been in a situation where that can happen yet.
 
#31
Maybe you just have to stop waisting your time and money and send the gun back to the smith for a check up. I have a Rem 700 trued, Jewell trigger, AICS 2.0, Obermeyer AMU SS 6.5 1:8.4 26" 260 Rem with 550/575 rounds through it and the barrel is junked. From chamber for 6" is badly eroded. Standard load is 140 AMAX 42.5 H4350 2740 fps. The smith at his cost is putting a new (fingers crossed) Kreiger barrel on and we start this process all over again.

Good luck I know we spend good money on things and expect them to be right, and it sucks when its not.
 
#32
Jumping or jamming? How far? Might try varying seating depth. My 6.5 CM will shoot Amaxes or SMK's equally well. Amaxes are cheaper, so I'm liking them a lot. Might try the Bergers as well.

Having smith do a check up is a solid idea as well. A little confidence before you get further into load development is not a bad thing.
 
#33
Just a quick update. Spent some time at the range tonight with a couple friends shooting 300 yard groups. Both my loads and my buddies nearly identical load shot the same out of my rifle. Shooting sub MOA but not 1/2 MOA. Best group was shot by my friend at .507 MOA. I'm leaning towards there is nothing to worry about, ignoring the 100 yard groups as I will never need those in a match, I'm more concerned with 300-1000+. I did order some Berger VLD 140gr bullets today just to try. Figure it would be a good bullet to try as another option that may perform better. I doubt they would be any worse. Plan is to go back to the range and shoot a grip of 200 and 300 yard groups with current load and some worked up Berger loads to see what happens. It is quite possible there is nothing to worry about and I'm being over picky.
 
#35
I was wondering if you had gotten to groups at 200 or 300 yards, which you did near the end, and it sounds as if the results are a bit better. I often get better groups at 2-300 than at 100 yards with two of my rifles. Although I am chasing sub 1/2MOA, if I can hit my targets at various different distances, in the "kill-zone" with consistency, I consider that to be job done----always room for improvement, though.

Your earliest photos showed a left to right angle on the top set....I would have wondered if there was a touch of shooter movement in that top one---speaking for myself, that would probably have been my fault. The second one isn't quite so much..
 
#36
JGorski said:
Yeah, your rifle should be shooting inch groups at 300yds, if you're getting east/west stringing blame it on the wind.
Click to expand...

Or improper cheek weld / parallax caused by not properly shouldering the rifle and getting directly behind it.

Had this happen to me at my last range trip.

Inch groups at 300 = 0.33 MoA. Irrational to expect this of most any rifle - especially given its a human shooting it.

________________

As has been said, the only way to resolve this stuff is to change variables, one at a time.
 
Last edited:
#38
19Scout77 said:
Since your max mag is 15x, i suggest you try a larger aiming point such as a 2 or 3" solid black circle at 100 and larger as you move back.
Click to expand...

Having the right size / style aiming point improved my groups - one where I could see the cross hairs in the white. Basically, a black box, with a white center.
 
#39
I haven't received my glass yet, but I got out a Nikon Buckmaster 6-18 w/ target dot and mounted it in a DNZ mount, loaded up some 142's (3) and 139 scenars. Same brrl, Krieger 8.5 twist in MTU contour. I didn't mt the brake. Factory ammo was boring accurate and the 142smk's were .5". When I went to the 139's it was a whole new ball game. I shot 3 in a .256" hole, so I loaded up 5 more just like it, and I've not even played with COAL yet, just jumping them, and the 5 shot was a .2"s also. I sold the SMK's, and got some 140 Nosler cc's, and I'm back in the .2's. Was just joking around the other day, and had my son spot for me on a ghog at 693yds, and after 3 shots he was at 720, and the 139 rolled him over. So far my furthest ghog kill. Jon Beanland is the man. Can't wait until I put on the PST.
 
#40
garandman said:
Or improper cheek weld / parallax caused by not properly shouldering the rifle and getting directly behind it.

Had this happen to me at my last range trip.

Inch groups at 300 = 0.33 MoA. Irrational to expect this of most any rifle - especially given its a human shooting it.

________________

As has been said, the only way to resolve this stuff is to change variables, one at a time.
Click to expand...

Indeed, but if my 6 Creed doesn't shoot 1/4moa or less(when it's calm) at 300 I kinda get pissed, I try not to blame it on myself because my hold is the same everytime, but when it's calm who else can I blame:)
 
#43
JGorski said:
Yeah, your rifle should be shooting inch groups at 300yds, if you're getting east/west stringing blame it on the wind.
Click to expand...

If I had a rifle that shot inch groups consistently at 300 yards I'd find a way to clone it or harvest the unicorn blood from it. I don't doubt that there are rifles out there than can shoot 1" groups at 300 but I want to see a rifle that you shoot five or ten groups of 5 in one sitting that average out to .33 moa.

Update on today's progress.

Did a little measuring/checking and appears my 142 SMK's are on .010 off the lands and I'm told they like a bit more. Gonna seat some at various lengths and shoot groups again.

Spent some time at 300 yards and learned that every group out of the rifle is nearly on a perfect horizontal line but about 2.5" spread. No matter who was shooting or what stock it was in. We threw it in an extra Mcree a friend happened to have with him and got the same results. Even had other people shoot the rifle with the exact same results.

Group 1: .846 moa
Group 2: .800 moa
Group 3 in the Mcree: .796
Group 4 by a friend not used to my rifle: 1.218

Like I said, all four of those groups were on a perfect horizontal line.
 
#44
Twisted said:
If I had a rifle that shot inch groups consistently at 300 yards I'd find a way to clone it or harvest the unicorn blood from it. I don't doubt that there are rifles out there than can shoot 1" groups at 300 but I want to see a rifle that you shoot five or ten groups of 5 in one sitting that average out to .33 moa.

Update on today's progress.

Did a little measuring/checking and appears my 142 SMK's are on .010 off the lands and I'm told they like a bit more. Gonna seat some at various lengths and shoot groups again.

Spent some time at 300 yards and learned that every group out of the rifle is nearly on a perfect horizontal line but about 2.5" spread. No matter who was shooting or what stock it was in. We threw it in an extra Mcree a friend happened to have with him and got the same results. Even had other people shoot the rifle with the exact same results.

Group 1: .846 moa
Group 2: .800 moa
Group 3 in the Mcree: .796
Group 4 by a friend not used to my rifle: 1.218

Like I said, all four of those groups were on a perfect horizontal line.
Click to expand...

Left right wind, perhaps?
 
#45
Legitimate thought but we're not thinking so. Only 300 yards with a light wind of no more than 5 or 6 mph at times today. There are wind flags and this is our home range so we're pretty used to the wind and it's patterns. We did watch for it, at least I did as there was a very obvious mirage rising, and did my best to take shots at calm times. Plus my buddy right next to me wasn't having wind issues with his nearly identical setup nor was another friend having any wind issues with his 6mm.
 
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