Sidearms & Scatterguns Should lasers be trusted on concealed carry?

[Primus]

20+ years of experience.. they were a trash $200 gun when they were imported as the HS2000 and today they are still hot garbage. Seen way too many fail in classes and training by incompetent officers and non gun folks. Ask any of the top trainers (Vickers, hackworth, patmac, Haley, Howe,ext) and they will tell you the same thing.

Someone shooting an XD is like one of the top 3 indicators that they have no fucking idea what they are talking about or doing.

Harsh but true.

 

[Snuby642]

Your full of it.
Try not to limp wrist it, and run some pmc for range ammo.
I have trained many new shooters with ours.
I have yet to find a new shooter to stupid to operate or hit with them.

Maybe you are an exception?

Only brand I would consider as a replacement would be glock new gen stuff.
I did not like the old glock grip angle way back in time and went xd.

 

[Primus]

XDs are Bubba guns. Junk that Bubba buys for cheap and goes to the dump and shoots at rats with. - LAV

One of the most prolific small arms instructors in the world including master class in both idpa/uspa, 20 year special operations most of that time being in Delta, which has the best marksmanship in the entire DOD or right there with the AMU. A guy who was the small arms marksmanship leader for the unit. A guy who has a mech engineering degree has designed more guns than you probably even own says they are junk. Someone who sees dozens of new shooters every week putting 500+ rounds a day downrange in every platform you can imagine, might have a better clue than you what is junk and what works.

Ill informed dirt shooters should not be giving opinions on things they are ignorant of. It's dangerous when novice people read these forums and give something like what you said the same weight as someone who actually knows what they are talking about. It's unethical of you to do so to be perfectly honest.

 

[natdscott]

Gentlemen, this can't go anywhere good. I think you're just gonna have to disagree on this one, and walk.

Besides, everybody knows that only 1911's are reliable enough to trust your life on as a carry weapon.

-Nate

 

[Snuby642]

I'm not a gentleman I will walk off if it makes natdscott happy.
At least I wont be riding off on someone else's credentials!

Apologies to the op.

 

[roamin]

My dad seems to really like his Crimson Trace laser grips on his G19. It's kinda hard to argue with him and tell him that the internet says lasers suck since he's EX Special Forces and all.

 

[fastfwd]

I don't carry, so I can't address the OP's original question. But for home defense, I have a laser and here's why:

My pistol has an RMR. It's an LED model that I keep on the auto-brightness setting so I can leave it illuminated 24/7 with long (>1 year) battery life: The LED is very dim when it's in a nightstand drawer or whatever, but it instantly brightens up when it's brought out into the daylight so I can clearly see it. It's super-easy to point and shoot -- easier for me than iron sights, now that my eyes are getting older.

But I might need to fire the thing at night, in the dark. And I think it's immoral (and it may be illegal, and I know it's unsafe) to shoot at a target that I can't see. So my pistol also has a light.

Unfortunately, the red dot's brightness is controlled by the amount of light on the RMR, not necessarily by the amount of light on the target. If I'm in the dark and my target is bathed in 600 lumens from the weapon light, the dim red dot is washed out and impossible to see.

So the light I chose is one that also incorporates a laser, and it turns on when the light does.

 

[GONE BAD]

Well a little update; I got my laser back a it works probably better than new. They didn't charge me and in all honesty they have excellent CS.
But in the big picture it, like all things , can fail.
The plan now is to install a set of night sights and I'll feel better.
In a way this could be a good experience. At least I have more awareness.

 

[Unknown]

No reason to not have a laser on a CCW pistol, but trusting any device excessively is a mistake on a fighting firearm. Especially problematic are optical devices that rely on a power source as there is so much potential for things to come detached, out of power, broken, etc. Good solid iron sights as a base requirement, with additional laser, optics etc is fine. But there has to be something to use in case the laser, or optics go haywire.

Even the best man made devices can fail. The finest tires available can still go flat at the worst moment...all we can do is lower our odds of having a malfunction at the worst possible moment.

One officer at my former agency always showed up to qualifications with the latest whiz-bang gizmo to hit the market. Laser, optics, it didn't matter, he had to have it. He rarely practiced, even though the agency would provide coaching, pay for his ammo and practice time. He would barely qualify and finally got the nickname "gizmo Joe". A wee bit of practice would have done him a lot more good. He tried to make up for his lack of practice by buying more junk for his pistol.

 

[david walter]

My complaint about lights and lasers is finding compatible holsters.

DARA makes a whole line of Kydex holsters for CCW OWB and IWB with lasers, lights, and laser/light combos.

And, they have a MIL and LE discount.

I own about 5. Love ‘me.

www.daraholsters.com

 

[david walter]

Also, my old guard unit had three Silver Star awardees. I asked each one about ammo and lasers.

To a man they said they had a count to the round of how much ammo they had available when the shooting stopped. Example, “I had one full 30 round mag and one mag with17 rounds, and the one in the chamber.”

To a man they said they have lasers now on their personal weapons. “It was one less thing to do in the confusion and the dark (lining up the sights) and probably kept me and our guys alive.”

I haven’t been in a gunfight, but I probably know 100 guys who have been in one. No one ever has told me they felt the laser was a disadvantage, and no one has called it a crutch.

Probably 15 of the 100 are “gun guys” who shoot a lot, or in competition, or both.

So, I have lasers (green) and lights on just about everything.

 

[itgoesboom]

I decided to try out a set of CT grips a few years back. I spent a considerable amount of time, both live and dry fire to get comfortable with it. I'm firmly in the Lasers can be useful camp, but I also believe they can be a hindrance if not used properly.

I see them as useful in the following situations:

1. Dry fire. Nothing has helped my dry fire more than practice with the CT grips.
2. Recoil Control. Very easy to identify if your pistol is recoiling straight by watching the dot move during fire.
3. Unusual positions where getting a normal sight picture may be difficult.
4. Moving targets.
5. Threat focused shooting. Example is, bad guy has a weapon, but it's not brought to bear. Dot is on the BG's chest, and I can focus on the BG's hands, without having to shift focus to the sights.

For the downsides:

1. Shooters who haven't practiced with them tend to be even less stable with the laser than conventional sights. Watching new shooters shoot with a laser makes Michael J Fox look like a steady shot.
2. Electronics can fail.
3. Sight offset / Zero. We deal with this with rifles, but people have a hard time with pistols for some reason. I prefer the "parallel zero" described above.

I believe in the advantages of the laser enough, that even though I have switched to Glocks as my primary pistols, I keep a CT equipped M&P as my HD pistol.

 

[Unknown]

Even high quality gear can fail, so trusting any device too much is a mistake. That is why CCW people are well advised to carry an extra magazine or speed loader. Stuff breaks.

 

[david walter]

That’s why I carry an extra gun.

 

[david walter]

And, that one has a laser, too.

 

[USACS]

20+ years of experience.. they were a trash $200 gun when they were imported as the HS2000 and today they are still hot garbage. Seen way too many fail in classes and training by incompetent officers and non gun folks. Ask any of the top trainers (Vickers, hackworth, patmac, Haley, Howe,ext) and they will tell you the same thing.

Someone shooting an XD is like one of the top 3 indicators that they have no fucking idea what they are talking about or doing.

Harsh but true.

Truth. I have seen XDs with problems that they shouldn’t have. Every national level instructor I’ve trained with has had negative experiences with XDs.

As a LEO firearms instructor in an agency of 900 where officers buy their own guns from a list of authorized guns, we will not touch Springfield XDs with a 10ft pole. We test everything before it gets approved, so we have a solid basis for our decisions.

As a private firearms instructor, every repeat student we’ve had that started with an XD no longer uses the XD because they’ve found something a lot better. I can think of 4 right now off the top of my head. One went HK, one went CZ, and two went to Glock.

 

[GONE BAD]

Truth. I have seen XDs with problems that they shouldn’t have. Every national level instructor I’ve trained with has had negative experiences with XDs.

As a LEO firearms instructor in an agency of 900 where officers buy their own guns from a list of authorized guns, we will not touch Springfield XDs with a 10ft pole. We test everything before it gets approved, so we have a solid basis for our decisions.

As a private firearms instructor, every repeat student we’ve had that started with an XD no longer uses the XD because they’ve found something a lot better. I can think of 4 right now off the top of my head. One went HK, one went CZ, and two went to Glock.

How about starting your own thread?
Quit stepping on mine!

 

[GONE BAD]

XDs are Bubba guns. Junk that Bubba buys for cheap and goes to the dump and shoots at rats with. - LAV

One of the most prolific small arms instructors in the world including master class in both idpa/uspa, 20 year special operations most of that time being in Delta, which has the best marksmanship in the entire DOD or right there with the AMU. A guy who was the small arms marksmanship leader for the unit. A guy who has a mech engineering degree has designed more guns than you probably even own says they are junk. Someone who sees dozens of new shooters every week putting 500+ rounds a day downrange in every platform you can imagine, might have a better clue than you what is junk and what works.

Ill informed dirt shooters should not be giving opinions on things they are ignorant of. It's dangerous when novice people read these forums and give something like what you said the same weight as someone who actually knows what they are talking about. It's unethical of you to do so to be perfectly honest.

SAME GOES FOR YOU! START YOUR OWN HATE THREAD!

 

[Smoov82]

Identify target, shoot. No need for a laser. Pretty sure most self defense situations happen around 7 yards.

 

[GONE BAD]

I don't really worry about myself.
It's my loved ones that may be in the equation! When that bullet hits the exact spot it's over. Other than that,one on one, no problem. I've lived a long time and know how to navigate.

 

[david walter]

Identify target, shoot. No need for a laser. Pretty sure most self defense situations happen around 7 yards.

The upside of a laser is if your “self defense situation” is outside the “average” 7 yards your laser gives you a better ability to quickly target and fire. And the downside is? Nothing.

Upside with no downside in a gunfight is called tactical advantage.

And I’ll be gettin’ me some tactical advantage every way I can.