Did you go for red or green? Pretty decent battery life difference. The 1-8 with a 34mm tube and both colors is tempting but it's a tank that probably keeps it from being very practical in most situations.
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In great light, SFP is no problem, because you can still see at maximum magnification. If you need to turn magnification down to brighten it up, an SFP reticle becomes useless. Since SHTF is probably going to result in less than optimal lighting, I’d think we would want to prioritize usability in less than optimal lighting.
Now, this demands a good FFP reticle that works at less than maximum zoom, but March at the very least has figured out some workable techniques.
According to ILya, who’s probably forgotten more about optics than most of the people on this site combined have ever known, it is very very difficult to make a true 1x LVPO with the larger lens you’d need to keep a good exit pupil at high zoom, and by necessity results in a large and heavy optic.
What an interesting thread. Ive had quite a few LPVO's and fell in love with the K16i and am now running the K18i with an exposed elevation turret combined with the 3GR reticle. There is a lot to be said for a FFP LPVO, provided the reticle and illumination is done right. For the most part my LPVO selections starts with reticle and I do think the 3GR, despite its shortcoming of not having numbered mils is done very well. The K18 is daylight bright in illumination and the glass/reticle image is bright, larger and clear with a very forgiving eyebox. Considering I can use the center dot from 0-300 yards, its not much of a pain to remember to be on max power beyond 300. Does it take more thought? Yes. Is the wide FOV and generous eyebox more advantageous at closer ranges than most all of the FFP options? Yes. Use case and preference will ultimately determine which one will be best for you. Good to have so many great options right now.
Red and it's still out of stock, but the others have been coming in so hopeful. Geissele mounts are hard to come by ATM for some reason, prolly focused on building guns or some shit like that...
The 1x8 just gets thick and heavy again so less than interested.
I had a K16i SM1 very briefly. The day I got it and took it out of the box i was just fiddling with it in and the front objective lens cover (the threaded portion) just unscrewed in my hands. It happened so easily I thought it was normal... Called Kahles - they admitted it was a QC flaw (not enough glue?) and offered to replace but I was thoroughly soured on the whole thing and just returned it.
I'm not even sure what piece you are talking about when you say front lens cover. I'm looking at my scope and don't see where that is possible.
The mount is a NIghtforce A190. I probably would not recommend this mount for 95% of the population. It is very low, 1.125" to be exact and most people cannot get low enough for that. For me, because I have high cheekbones and I am a little guy it works perfect. I have a full rested cheekweld when prone with the rifle for longer shots so it keeps me steady and comfortable. Most things inside 100 yards, the DPP is my go-to. I routinely engage a 4"x7" 25% IPSC at 100 with just the Delta Point Pro with good consistency. Any smaller than that, I drop my head and use the Kahles. The DPP sits at 3.75" over bore in this particular configuration which is only about 2.5" from the top of the rail. I really, really have liked my optics being setup like this.
Thanks, I was mainly interested in the MRDS mount...which looks like a Reptilia, but all the additional info you gave helps alot. I am back and forth on doing a piggyback optic or a offset mainly as a passive NV aiming device...but secondarily as a BUS. I'm not sure if offset will work well with NV, but it would double nicely as a BU sight system to my NX8...whereas a piggyback mounted RD would be best for passive but not as great for BUS due to the fact that I run 1.93 height mounts.
Based on your measurements, I would be at 3.3" above the rail and 4.5" above the bore. That would be a hell of an offset for close in shots...
Yeap there is always a trade off. For me the offset mount means I can't utilize it support side . As for the height over bore, the good news about close range height over bore is it is easy to see and correct, and whether it is 2" or 8", it should all come out in training. The nice thing about the Kahles 3GR reticle is there is TWO illuminated dots inside. The bottom one is for CQB so I can just use that if I need to be more precise at close range.
Then put the Steiner P4Xi 1-4X on your shopping list.
A skilled rifleman can do a lot of damage with an accurate rifle and 4X magnification.
Holy shit where do people get stupid shit like this?
Reticles in SFP optics don't change size with magnification. If you can see it at the top end it will look exactly the same at 1X.
Was wondering about this myself. I spent hours yesterday going back and forth from 1-6x with the illumination on but couldn't get it to change brightness
And Vudu 1-6x. Doesn't need illumination also has a good eyebox for an FFP scope in its price range.
He meant image brightness, which changes in inverse relation to magnificationWas wondering about this myself. I spent hours yesterday going back and forth from 1-6x with the illumination on but couldn't get it to change brightness
He's still wrong about what happens to a SFP reticle when you change magnification
Yeah I'm just having fun with the SFP haters. Not sure what the big fuss is with a LPVO and shooting to 3-400 yards. And I certainly have never had an issue using the Kahles in low light that required me to turn down magnification to see and I was shooting a 2/3 black silhouette at 600 yards to see if I could hit consistently with an 11.5 upper. No issues at all.
There's only one retard here who's been hating on SFP LPVOs and he likes eating crabs and watching football.
Its the part you would screw an ARD into. The threaded hood that extends over the objective lens. That ring just unscrewed in my hands revealing a bare objective lens held onto the scope body with several small metal prongs.
Just my experience. The company handled it great IMO - no hassle on the return. I probably shoulda given Kahles a 2nd chance but I am loving my new ATACR right now.
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Any LPVO is not the best tool for low light. I hunted with the K16i for a season and could have killed 2 maybe 3 more deer if I had a more reasonably sized objective. I swapped it out with a Razor LH HD in 1.5-8x32 for this season. Intested to see what if there is any improvement with the slightly larger objective.
As for the K16/K18 for long range use, I have had the K16 to 800 with no issues, I think they actually excel in the mid range stuff.
Correct. On those few opportunities I had to back the Kahles back to 2-3 power to get enough light and that wasn't enough to look over the heads/horns real good. The Razor I hope will provide a little extra magnifcation in that scenario. I still wanted something light which is why I chose that Razor instead of something larger. I will advise when I get to try it out in real life.
Perhaps not, in which case I stand corrected. The point remains, however - not all Schott glass is the same.
So what's the story with the Primary Arms Platinum series 1-8 ACSS Griffin Mil ? It's looking like an alternate version of the LOW manufactured Trijicon 1-8 .
The Griffin Mil looks excellent. Rings all my bells for SHTF especially with an offset mini-dot mounted....
https://www.primaryarms.com/pa-plx8...le-scope-illuminated-acss-griffin-mil-reticle
The Griffin Mil looks excellent. Rings all my bells for SHTF especially with an offset mini-dot mounted....
https://www.primaryarms.com/pa-plx8...le-scope-illuminated-acss-griffin-mil-reticle
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My only question has been battery life, and PA couldn't provide me an answer. She's also pretty heavy. Love the Griffin Reticle and their Raptor reticle scopes look really nice too.
I don't think you'd find yourself needing an offset mini dot. It works really good at 1x all the way on up.
I can't answer on the battery life as I haven't used it long enough to wear it out.
However I can say for sure that with no illumination at all, it works very well at 1x and above in a variety of light conditions.
At 1X you can still easily see the black ring and use it for fast aiming without illumination
The Illumination can go from NV compatible all the way up to very intense bright.
What I do like is the off position is every second click on the illumination dial, so you can set it the way you want it, then just off with a single click and back to your spot with a single click.
For the price (about $1250) it's a great option, I got one as thanks to the whole covid business I wasn't in a position to get a really expensive one.
I got the ACSS Raptor M2 5.56 / .308 reticle as it was a better fit for what I wanted to use it on.
I'd love to see @koshkin do a full review on one (I'd even send him mine to test).
WTF is that reticle for a AGL or a fighting carbine? 15mil holdover Xmas tree on a 1-8? like i told the guy who designed the reticle at a meeting GTFO
Ive seen this reticle and the entire tree is useless at 4x especially under conditions.
Id rather have a optic really good at a few things tailored to specific needs instead of it trying to do everything mediocre.
YMMV
That's the one I decided on, and now that I've decided to buy, nobody in America has one in stock.
For 5.56, or .308, maybe. But for 300 blackout supers out of an 8" barrel (which have a trajectory like a rainbow), it seems perfect. The 15 mil tree seems a great way of extending the 300 blk's range past 300. Speer TNT 125 at 2050 fps drops ~13.5 mils at 600 yds. The christmas tree should make the 300 blk useable to that distance without fiddling with turrets.
I don't think you have much experience using SFP and FFP with out illumination in low light.
The only advantage for FFPs is doing hold off for LR or wind and @ 3X it's just as easy using SFP as FFP.
I decided on a Vortex Gen III 1-10 for my SHTF boomstick. Went with the MRAD version as I donot want to be tied into a certain load for the BDC on the MOA version. Now I am just waiting on the mount to arrive.
The more I think about this and the more I use just a LPVO the more I realize it isn't a great option looking at real scenarios. We all talk about a daylight bright optic which is fine but I have a problem with this using it as my primary optic. I've never been a fan of offset irons and off set red dots but I think the concept of having a CQB style sight in conjunction with a variable optic is the way to go. I'm sure we can all agree that time is not on our side, nor is having to think about what we are doing. Seeing Burdy's setup (posts 205 and 214) has convinced me that is the way to go.
In an urban environment where a lot of us are located but not necessarily a large metro area, if engaging targets at 10-20 yards the red dot can't be beat and a good LPVO with a daylight bright reticle at 1x is not far behind. But where the situation becomes annoying to me is changing power to 6x or whatever power to engage a target at distance and even more dangerous and time consuming, having to deal with another threat that just popped up from around the corner from 10 yards away while my scope is on 6x. Fucking round with a power ring is not good.
Going to give a Delta Point Pro and Reptilia mount a ride on a LPVO and see how it works. Thanks Burdy.
In an urban environment where a lot of us are located but not necessarily a large metro area, if engaging targets at 10-20 yards the red dot can't be beat and a good LPVO with a daylight bright reticle at 1x is not far behind. But where the situation becomes annoying to me is changing power to 6x or whatever power to engage a target at distance and even more dangerous and time consuming, having to deal with another threat that just popped up from around the corner from 10 yards away while my scope is on 6x. Fucking round with a power ring is not good.
Going to give a Delta Point Pro and Reptilia mount a ride on a LPVO and see how it works. Thanks Burdy.
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1x is plenty out to 200+ yards. Any further than that and you will have plenty of opportunity to dial up.
Don't move around with the scope on 6x. That is a simple training issue. Always return to lowest power.
Don't over think it.
I was returning to 1x but what I was realizing is that if someone starts taking fire from their position at close range it makes more sense to be able to return fire without having to dial down.
How is it overthinking it if you are engaging a target at distance on 6x and an unknown surprises you from 10 yards? We don't get to pick and choose who starts shooting at us and from what distances.
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Are you posting this from Mogadishu or Fallujah?
If you can't hit a man 10 yards away while looking over the top of your scope, you don't need more shit on your rifle. You need remedial marksmanship instruction.
Ok so everyone that runs an offset red dot is a fucking retard and can't hit anything. Got it
Burn proof gear. It definitely works for its intended purpose, but drying off sweaty hands and providing a softer surface for shooting off of, rather than hard object on hard object, to get a slightly more stable position is where it has proven its worth to me. That rail is one of the skinniest rails you can find, so the wrap brings it right back up to a good feeling OD.
I've been through the "what's the best lpvo" testing over the last couple years and currently own 3 of the higher end ones. I've yet to try the atacr 1-8.
I currently have two Kahles 1-6 (sm-1 and 3gr,) a S&B dual CC, and the new gen III razor.
I like them all for different reasons. I think my favorite is the Kahles for the 1x and weight, followed by the Schmidt, then the razor. I haven't tried the new Kahles 1-8 but want to.
Kahles: The BEST 1x fov by a wide margin. What you see when you bring the scope up is huge. Tube disappears, giant circle of reality with great situational awareness. Illumination is so-so. Bright enough for daylight, but not super crazy bright. Not a big fan of the intensity dial, wish it had clicks on\off for intensity. Both reticles work great for closeup or far out. Not as durable as the other two just from a general feel impression. Mag ring is easier to turn, more slop, elevation\wind clicks are mushy. But that 1x view....
Glass is very good, but some CA and not as clear as the Schmidt. Lightest weight.
Schmidt dual CC: 1x fov feels cramped. Tube is thick, a little tunnel vision when looking through. Best glass of the 3, clear and very good in low light.
The "dual" 1x v.s. 1.whatever x isn't as noticeable as you would think.
Red dot like illumination looks just like an aimpoint. On 1x the reticle is very faint, almost not there so it's very red dot like when the illumination is on.
At 8x the eyebox is tight, but not overly so.. and the glass is very good so you're able to see details, especially in low light. I really like the reticle design.
Usual great Schmidt turrets and quality.
This would be my top pick for a shtf scope if you have a billion dollars to spend haha.
Razor gen 3:
Love the reticle, 1x fov very good.. almost as big as the Kahles but not quite. Reticle on 10x is awesome, also usable through the whole range. I have the mrad version, not a big fan of ballistic reticles. 10x eyebox is very tight. You need to be stationary and not moving to really use it. Not really a problem but it's a little finicky. Crazy bright illumination. Build quality tougher than the Kahles. Better turrets\clicks than Kahles, seems more durable. My only gripe with the Razor is the glass, when comparing side by side to the other two scopes you see where your money went. Edge distortion and funny business when panning the scope around. Wish I could get this scope with better glass in it. A trade-off to get that 10x mag. Great choice for all features unless you suffer from glass snobbery like myself.
I currently have two Kahles 1-6 (sm-1 and 3gr,) a S&B dual CC, and the new gen III razor.
I like them all for different reasons. I think my favorite is the Kahles for the 1x and weight, followed by the Schmidt, then the razor. I haven't tried the new Kahles 1-8 but want to.
Kahles: The BEST 1x fov by a wide margin. What you see when you bring the scope up is huge. Tube disappears, giant circle of reality with great situational awareness. Illumination is so-so. Bright enough for daylight, but not super crazy bright. Not a big fan of the intensity dial, wish it had clicks on\off for intensity. Both reticles work great for closeup or far out. Not as durable as the other two just from a general feel impression. Mag ring is easier to turn, more slop, elevation\wind clicks are mushy. But that 1x view....
Glass is very good, but some CA and not as clear as the Schmidt. Lightest weight.
Schmidt dual CC: 1x fov feels cramped. Tube is thick, a little tunnel vision when looking through. Best glass of the 3, clear and very good in low light.
The "dual" 1x v.s. 1.whatever x isn't as noticeable as you would think.
Red dot like illumination looks just like an aimpoint. On 1x the reticle is very faint, almost not there so it's very red dot like when the illumination is on.
At 8x the eyebox is tight, but not overly so.. and the glass is very good so you're able to see details, especially in low light. I really like the reticle design.
Usual great Schmidt turrets and quality.
This would be my top pick for a shtf scope if you have a billion dollars to spend haha.
Razor gen 3:
Love the reticle, 1x fov very good.. almost as big as the Kahles but not quite. Reticle on 10x is awesome, also usable through the whole range. I have the mrad version, not a big fan of ballistic reticles. 10x eyebox is very tight. You need to be stationary and not moving to really use it. Not really a problem but it's a little finicky. Crazy bright illumination. Build quality tougher than the Kahles. Better turrets\clicks than Kahles, seems more durable. My only gripe with the Razor is the glass, when comparing side by side to the other two scopes you see where your money went. Edge distortion and funny business when panning the scope around. Wish I could get this scope with better glass in it. A trade-off to get that 10x mag. Great choice for all features unless you suffer from glass snobbery like myself.
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