Gotta agree with Crabs about the FFP game changer aspects of the new gen of LPVO optics. The question is (in my mind anyway) how are these new FFP optics surviving under real combat use? Relatively speaking, they are kind new in terms of military use. Any insights?
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I am actually not trying to change the subject. He said he wanted a FFP that he could use without batteries. So how can he use an aimpoint bright 1x FFP without batteries as you say?
You are obviously talking from a military perspective where you have resources that ground grunts don’t have to worry about the POGs taking care of. He’s not operating under that same level of resources. So given the parameters that he set, do you really think FFP is the straw to break the camels back?
If he’s taking grazing fire from 600m, then it’s probably a fucking M249 or a M240B or whatever other countries equivalent. If it’s precision fire, better hope they can’t hit moving targets.
Not sure what your attitude is all about.
is this ar15.com now? so much Tactical Timmy
Deleted because:
Someone being all annoyed, so no problem I don't mind being quiet.......
Someone being all annoyed, so no problem I don't mind being quiet.......
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Wow lots to cover here, thanks again for the suggestions and info thus far. A few specific followups:
A lot of recommendations for the Razor Gen III. Can anyone confirm how usable the recticle is at 1x without illumination? It just seems very small with nothing to draw your eye to it (unlike some others which have nice stadia lines to draw the eye in even at 1x).
A lot of recommendations for the Leupold Mk6. I do like the TMR-D recticle (not to mention the weight), how large is it on 1x? I cannot seem to find a good pic of the TMR-D at 1x. Furthermore, the FOV seems small which can indicate a tighter eyebox. Can anyone compare the Mk6 to the Razor Gen II (which I have access to) or the Khales K16i?
@slothlacrosse thanks for sharing that tidbit. You wouldn't happen to know what recticle the Leupold and/or Khales guys were using would you?
nn8734 As I said in the OP this is for a 13.9in AR15 and a 14.5in AR10. Weight is a concern but not the primary one. As for "fast" I actually have an Aimpoint T2 and EXPS-3 both with with the Unity Tactical riser/mount and Fold To Center magnifiers. To me, that is about as good as it gets for a compromise between speed (flip mag down, now you have a true red dot) and combat magnification (flip mag up, you are at 3x or 6x on the AR10). However, as I said as soon as there are no more CR123s and 2032s (10 years max), both setups become worthless. I'm not bugging out (unless I have to) so keeping a good LPVO around in case that happens and using it to train in the meantime is the goal here.
aslrookie Unless I'm very much mistaken, almost all batteries that run modern quality red dots have 10 year self lives max from new. Meaning that if they overnighted it from the factory to my door and I got it the day something bad kicked off, I'd have at best maybe 10-12 years before my batteries become worthless. It doesn't matter how many I have (and FYI, I do have a lot).
Furthermore, I can understand your frustration with the prepper fantasy bullshit that constantly swirls online. I can assure you this isn't that (well in some ways it is, but not the ways you are stating), I do have a good community, family, comms, FOB, and so on for a just-in-case situation. We are down on the optics part of the checklist. This isn't a thinly veiled WTB thread, this is just a WTB thread with some specific requirements.
Speaking of those requirements, I never said it had to be FFP, you must be confusing my comments with some others ITT. I said it had to have a recticle that was fast at 1x without illumination (which sadly disqualifies most FFP optics), doesn't wash out in white light at night, has the most forgiving eye box possible, doesn't have much if any forward light signature, and is durable. FFP would be nice, but if you read the thread I'm actually leaning towards SFP optics, specifically the Khales K18i or K16i because it seems to hit most of these goals better than anything else.
@W54/XM-388 mind starting your own thread? Your requirements are very different from my own.
Again, any helpful info or recommendations welcome.
A lot of recommendations for the Razor Gen III. Can anyone confirm how usable the recticle is at 1x without illumination? It just seems very small with nothing to draw your eye to it (unlike some others which have nice stadia lines to draw the eye in even at 1x).
A lot of recommendations for the Leupold Mk6. I do like the TMR-D recticle (not to mention the weight), how large is it on 1x? I cannot seem to find a good pic of the TMR-D at 1x. Furthermore, the FOV seems small which can indicate a tighter eyebox. Can anyone compare the Mk6 to the Razor Gen II (which I have access to) or the Khales K16i?
@slothlacrosse thanks for sharing that tidbit. You wouldn't happen to know what recticle the Leupold and/or Khales guys were using would you?
nn8734 As I said in the OP this is for a 13.9in AR15 and a 14.5in AR10. Weight is a concern but not the primary one. As for "fast" I actually have an Aimpoint T2 and EXPS-3 both with with the Unity Tactical riser/mount and Fold To Center magnifiers. To me, that is about as good as it gets for a compromise between speed (flip mag down, now you have a true red dot) and combat magnification (flip mag up, you are at 3x or 6x on the AR10). However, as I said as soon as there are no more CR123s and 2032s (10 years max), both setups become worthless. I'm not bugging out (unless I have to) so keeping a good LPVO around in case that happens and using it to train in the meantime is the goal here.
aslrookie Unless I'm very much mistaken, almost all batteries that run modern quality red dots have 10 year self lives max from new. Meaning that if they overnighted it from the factory to my door and I got it the day something bad kicked off, I'd have at best maybe 10-12 years before my batteries become worthless. It doesn't matter how many I have (and FYI, I do have a lot).
Furthermore, I can understand your frustration with the prepper fantasy bullshit that constantly swirls online. I can assure you this isn't that (well in some ways it is, but not the ways you are stating), I do have a good community, family, comms, FOB, and so on for a just-in-case situation. We are down on the optics part of the checklist. This isn't a thinly veiled WTB thread, this is just a WTB thread with some specific requirements.
Speaking of those requirements, I never said it had to be FFP, you must be confusing my comments with some others ITT. I said it had to have a recticle that was fast at 1x without illumination (which sadly disqualifies most FFP optics), doesn't wash out in white light at night, has the most forgiving eye box possible, doesn't have much if any forward light signature, and is durable. FFP would be nice, but if you read the thread I'm actually leaning towards SFP optics, specifically the Khales K18i or K16i because it seems to hit most of these goals better than anything else.
@W54/XM-388 mind starting your own thread? Your requirements are very different from my own.
Again, any helpful info or recommendations welcome.
My NX8 is beyond Aimpoint bright, and it's so fast on 1x that I have to turn my clocks back. Sheesh.
A lpvo is used as an aimpoint on 1x. no stop no questions. You arent using the reticle anyway. To think otherwise is foolish and means you dont even understand what you really are trying to do.
So, did you read any part of my posts? I think in just about every one I reference why I am even looking at these LPVOs. The whole point is potential use in a world without batteries. The means no illumination to use like an aimpoint. I also already have aimpoints to use like aimpoints. As I said in my second post, yes if this wasn't a consideration I'd probably just get the S&B or G3, and I still might for a different rifle. But that isn't what this thread is about. Now that this has been clearly stated for you, why not try to be helpful in a specific way instead of a bunch of generalities and holier-than-thou attitude?
If you have nothing to add beyond what you've already stated......no need to repeat yourself it is clear where you stand.
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And for everyone else, has anyone gotten to use the Trijicon VCOG 1-8x? I forgot to put that in my OP, I've heard decent things about the 1x performance and FFP reticle usability.
So you buy a dozen batteries and keep them on your kit and with the gun. How hard is that? Lithium's have a 20 year shelf life.
Its a stupid premise that makes zero sense.
Are you serious clark?
I'm sorry you don't have the knowledge or intellectual capacity to understand the disccusion.
See all you're capable of doing is personal attacks. Where is the value in that? Why not put up some information to back what you're saying. You keep being a tool though, have fun.
No you are incapable of intelligent debate so its like reasoning with a pig.
Why don't you go do some research before talking shit about something you are 100% wrong about. I don't have the time to write a dissertation explaining in nuance how you are wrong every time some asshole calls for it. The information is out there in abundance if you aren't to lazy to look.
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You're a real cunt aren't you?
I haven't actually voiced an opinion so you're attacking me over nothing. You seem to have plenty of time to shit talk. I think you need a stress ball. I'm not gonna spend any more time debating with a somebody so mentally deficient though. Have a good one.
Then why open your cock holster if you have nothing to say in here? Your first post was attacking me. You got nothing of value to add here so fuck off.
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Dude...
1. Modern lithium 123a and 2032s, have on average a maximum life of around 10 years (I have been corrected, the AAAs are 20y but only the VCOG takes them) from date of manufacture (even under ideal storage). As has been stated many times this thread already.
2. Even if it was 20 years (which it isn't) if things get bad (huge solar storm, whatever) there still won't be any new batteries at that point. And again, I'm hoping my community, family, myself, and the rifle the optic sits on are all still running strong. Meaning year 21 rolls around, now I want an optic as I describe above. Think about 20 years ago....that is just 2000. How many of us still have rifles and optics from then?
3. It is obvious (and has been for some time) that you have absolutely nothing of value to add to this thread. You refuse to read, and you refuse to answer questions. The only thing stupid here is your dumbass attitude that you've poluted this thread with. GTFO. Hope mods clean your shit up soon. This is the exact kind of ignorant aggressive shit that internet tough guys puke all over forums and chase quality members off places like the hide.
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Okay, you obviously need a time out in the corner. Come back in a week, hopefully with a little more civility towards the other members. Being opinionated doesn't give you a license to be an asshole.
Great thread, I’m going to pick up a viper pst ii 1-6 because a gen 3 razor 1-10 isn’t in the budget. I’ve been needing to get a scope to replace the mro on my scar17.
solid ban chief. If anyone has earned it, this individual did. Good thread otherwise. My opinion is get an optic that has an etched reticle. I had a Primary Arms Platinum 1-8 with the ACSS reticle. If you haven’t give it a look, thing is built like a brick shit house.
Ha, i think we caught Crabs on a day he didn't take his meds. No worries! Moving on. For me, lpvo's are simply a tool, like my rifle, used to achieve an objective.
I'm in the same boat as you (want a bomb-proof FFP LPVO that's as close as possible to a red dot on 1x but capable at distance with great glass) and I've researched this for months.
Have you taken a good look at the Griffin Mil reticle?
I mention the reticle first rather than the optic for two reasons: 1) assuming the turrets are repeatable and the glass is at least decent, the reticle is what is going to make an optic shine or make it suck for your intended application. I believe this particular reticle is by far the most well-thought out reticle on the market for an LPVO. 2) The name Primary Arms tends to make people with budget of $1K or more immediately stop listening. However, their Platinum 1-8 is made by LOW (the same factory that makes the Trijicon 1-8, the Nightforce NX8, the Vortex Razors, and several other tier 2 optics). The reviews are stellar and say that image quality and eyebox are similar to the Trijicon and the Razor. The scope is heavy and robustly built and has a lifetime warranty.
The reticle has a large illuminated horseshoe which I love because it is highly similar to an Eotech at 1x, and it is thick, so easily visible without illumination.
The horseshoe houses an apparently very fast (according to reviews) man-sized-target ranging system. At magnification, a 15 mil tall Christmas tree grid becomes visible.
For me, the thing that sets this reticle apart from all the others on the market is that it has a christmas tree AND a fine aiming point. All the other LPVO tree reticles have a big, target-obscuring dot. The tip of the chevron is an infinitely fine aiming point and thus lends itself to precision shooting. Try that with any other LPVO. Vortex razor g3 has a .7 moa (EBR-9 MRAD) or 1 moa (EBR-9 MOA) center dot; Nightforce ATACR and NX8 1-8s both have a 1.2 moa center dot; all the Kahles 1-6 and 1-8 reticles have a 1 moa center dot; and Leupold mark 6 has the finest center dot at .5 moa.
Have you taken a good look at the Griffin Mil reticle?
I mention the reticle first rather than the optic for two reasons: 1) assuming the turrets are repeatable and the glass is at least decent, the reticle is what is going to make an optic shine or make it suck for your intended application. I believe this particular reticle is by far the most well-thought out reticle on the market for an LPVO. 2) The name Primary Arms tends to make people with budget of $1K or more immediately stop listening. However, their Platinum 1-8 is made by LOW (the same factory that makes the Trijicon 1-8, the Nightforce NX8, the Vortex Razors, and several other tier 2 optics). The reviews are stellar and say that image quality and eyebox are similar to the Trijicon and the Razor. The scope is heavy and robustly built and has a lifetime warranty.
The reticle has a large illuminated horseshoe which I love because it is highly similar to an Eotech at 1x, and it is thick, so easily visible without illumination.
The horseshoe houses an apparently very fast (according to reviews) man-sized-target ranging system. At magnification, a 15 mil tall Christmas tree grid becomes visible.
For me, the thing that sets this reticle apart from all the others on the market is that it has a christmas tree AND a fine aiming point. All the other LPVO tree reticles have a big, target-obscuring dot. The tip of the chevron is an infinitely fine aiming point and thus lends itself to precision shooting. Try that with any other LPVO. Vortex razor g3 has a .7 moa (EBR-9 MRAD) or 1 moa (EBR-9 MOA) center dot; Nightforce ATACR and NX8 1-8s both have a 1.2 moa center dot; all the Kahles 1-6 and 1-8 reticles have a 1 moa center dot; and Leupold mark 6 has the finest center dot at .5 moa.
If one of the primary concerns is functionality without batteries, have you looked at LPVOs designed to operate without batteries? I am thinking the Accupoint line specifically, although there may be others. The tritium will die eventually, but you would still have the FO. It is definitely not a perfect solution, but it does address what appears to be a concern of yours.
Disclaimer: I have never been on a two way range, I have no experience with the Accupoint line, and I have a Texas public school education. Take my input for what it is worth.
Disclaimer: I have never been on a two way range, I have no experience with the Accupoint line, and I have a Texas public school education. Take my input for what it is worth.
Tritium will halve in brightness every 12 years, so after 12 years it's 1/2 as bright and after 24 years it's 1/4th as bright.
SO if your concern is in 20 years there will be no more batteries........
The clock starts ticking on Tritium the day it's produced at the reactor.
VS, the clock on your batteries for 10 or 20 years can be reset every year right up till batteries are no longer being made....
Oh no, Crabby got banned?!? Who could've seen that coming?!? I'd say it was a fun 2 months but...well, it wasn't.
I just ordered a Razor GII-E 1-6x for my 3 gun rifle this week from Scott at Liberty Optics (he's the best). I'll be able to weigh in on that one in a couple months.
Current LPVO on my SHTF rifle is my beloved Steiner P4Xi 1-4x. Great glass, daylight bright dot with a small/lightweight backup battery in the grip, enough magnification to cover the useful distance of 5.56mm, and 21oz as it sits in QD rings is hard to beat.
While I appreciate what you are saying, and may even agree with you, you are not within the bounds that OP has framed.
OP has stated a number of times that his concern is functionality without batteries. Fiber optics will assist in that even after the tritium is no longer useful. Responses that are the equivalent of “buy more batteries and don’t worry about it” don’t address the question that is being asked.
Are you auditioning for a moderator job here? "you are not within the bounds that OP has framed" Who the hell are you newbie? The OP can ignore it without your help if he/she chooses to do so.
I have no desire to be a moderator, and I meant no offense with my responses. My intent was only to offer a possible solution to meet the specific requirements established by OP.
My apologies for the oversight on my part.
My apologies for the oversight on my part.
I thought someone would mention a Trijicon Accupoint. I've a 1-4 with the mentioned German #4 reticle and it's about eighteen years old. Tritium is very dim, but in daylight the dot is very bright. It sits on a range gun, because it is no longer usable in low light. Perfect in the daylight, but I'm not sure the solution to low light without some type of external power.
I usually wait a few months in the hope someone asks or answers a question I have. Most of the time it works, not this time. I rarely see Trijicon mentioned, in particular the Credo 1-8x28.
Are there to many negative associated with this LPVO? Field of view, bad glass, price, not tough enough, eye box?
Maxwell
Are there to many negative associated with this LPVO? Field of view, bad glass, price, not tough enough, eye box?
Maxwell
- Nov 3, 2010
- 9,699
- 20,385
I just picked up a Bushnell SMRS II Pro and it seems super clear and sharp. It is a SFP though, have yet to get out and shoot it but soon and hopefully doesn’t disappoint. It is sitting on top of a scar16 in an ADM Recon mount.
From everything I've read, it's durable, has great glass, and good turrets, but the reticle holds it back -basically just a simple mil-dot with a coarse aiming point (.52 moa dot). LPVOs really benefit from some sort of a Christmas tree for dial-less corrections, holdovers, and wind.
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Ignoring all the silliness...
From your list and others mentioned, I will only speak to the ones that I have shot and seen shot more than 10k rounds on multiple samples with zero retention, function, and usability measured.
1). Khales. Great on 1x, however durability is so-so. They are fine for 3-gun and general use, however they do not take impacts well.
2). Vortex 1-6x Gen II is excellent on 1x, reticle is fine without illumination. The first four that I used had catastrophic failures before 3,500 rounds. The fifth has lasted more than 40k. Have seen dozens more used heavily, with more issues than is acceptable.
3). The S&B Dual CC SDII 1-8x is the most shootable of the LPV’s. However reticle is not usable without illumination.
4). Elian. The mount alone should remove Elcans from consideration.
5). Trijicon Accupoints are usually pretty solid. The reticles are ok, fiber works though not as bright as some others. Reliability and durability wise they aren’t bombproof, but are better than most.
6). Leupold Mk 6. The first six that I used all had significant issues by 3,000 rounds- primarily with zero retention. They do not take side and top impacts well.
7). Minox ZP8. Reticle is usable without illumination. Design is very good with regards to features. Impact shifts from top impacts from drops.
8). 1-6x Trijicon VCOG. Reticle is usable without illumination. Turrets are not indexed or marked in any way. Adjustments are not very precise or consistent. Most can not get focused at both 1x and 6x.
9). Trijicon 1-8x VCOG. Reticle is usable without illumination. Turrets are the same as the 1-6x, though so far are more consistent in adjustments. Reticle focus is improved. Very big, very heavy.
10). Steiner Px4. All that I have seen lose zero from impacts.
11). Nightforce ATACR 1-8x. Reticle is usable without illumination. Extremely durable- it and the NX8 are probably the most reliable LPV’s made. Decent eyebox, turrets are solid.
12). Nightforce NX8 1-8x. Reticle is usable without illumination. Scope is tiny. Eyebox is smaller than ATACR, but is completely usable. Turrets are solid.
13). Trijicon 1-8x Credo/Accupower. Reticle is usable without illumination. Turrets and adjustments work correctly. About 20-30% will have the reticle rotate when used hard.
As far as “fast” goes, if people are not using timers on standard drills and gathering large data sets, “fast” means nothing. From fastest to slowest there is less than .1 seconds difference between those above for time to first shot at 0-7m. In target to target transitions at sub 7m there is around .05 seconds between any of the good ones. Mostly when people talk speed they “feel” that one is faster than another- not that one actually is faster. Those times are from several dozen shooters, and tens of thousands of rounds.
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Thank you both @Odysseus1911 & @Vereor
This site costs me so much money! Well, there is no moving van following your coffin.
Maxwell
This site costs me so much money! Well, there is no moving van following your coffin.
Maxwell
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Boy did this thread go to hell fast... but then made a nice recovery. I do not like mudslinging, but not that we are back to civilized discourse, I figured I should chime in again.
My original recommendation of Vortex Razor Gen 3 and S&B Dual CC, generally stands, but the S&B is designed to work on 1x with a battery. It works really well, but I would have liked some reticle features that give it usability if push comes to shove without a battery (and gave that feedback to S&B). Here is what it looks like on 1x with the illumination on and off:
Interestingly, at close range, I can comfortably get quick center of mass hits without the reticle being there at all, but that starts getting iffy (for me), past 25 yards or so.
Vortex Razor Gen3 1-10x24 has non-illuminated reticle features that work on 1x. It is no an ideal arrangement, but it is usable.
Here is what it looks like non-illuminated:
And illuminated, though not on full blast:
For a general purpose scope that goes to fairly high illumination, I do prefer FFP. In use, it is comforting to not care at all which magnification I am on.
Now, if you really want non-illuminated visibility on 1x, you kinda have to go with SFP and there Vortex Razor Gen2E 1-6x24 is very nice and very quick, as is the similar Delta Stryker 1-6x24 that is a little lighter. I think the SIg Tango6 1-6x24 is also a related design.
Here is a look through the Stryker 1-6x24:
That having been said, if this is an exercise in planning for a civilizational collapse and what will happen when you can no longer get batteries, you are probably thinking about it the wrong way.
Aside from the fact that you will have many other significantly more important problems than optics selection, you should really be thinking about redundancy. If this is really a plan for something apocalyptic, I would be buying and setting up multiple sighting systems. Everything made by man can and does break occasionally, so you better have backup.
By all means, get the nicest LPVO you can afford, but if also get something simple and durable for backup. For example, something simple like the SWFA SS 3-9x42 with an offset red dot will cost you a lot less money, have a proven track record of durability and provide some redundancy. And it will work better for hunting in low light owing to a large objective lens. You are far more likely to be foraging for food than fighting off hordes of zombies.
To be entirely honest, I am as paranoid as anyone else and I do have two of those SWFA 3-9x42 scopes set up with red dots exactly as I mentioned. I also have Razor Gen3 and S&B Dual CC. And the 1-6 Stryker. And a bunch of other stuff. Scopes come and go all the time. At any given time, I have between 30 and 60 different scopes and red dots here. New stuff gets here all the time and other stuff leaves. However, for every scopable rifle, I have a primary scope and a back up scope. It has nothing with coming apocalypse. I just like redundancy and consider it to be cheap insurance for some of life's quirks.
ILya
My original recommendation of Vortex Razor Gen 3 and S&B Dual CC, generally stands, but the S&B is designed to work on 1x with a battery. It works really well, but I would have liked some reticle features that give it usability if push comes to shove without a battery (and gave that feedback to S&B). Here is what it looks like on 1x with the illumination on and off:
Interestingly, at close range, I can comfortably get quick center of mass hits without the reticle being there at all, but that starts getting iffy (for me), past 25 yards or so.
Vortex Razor Gen3 1-10x24 has non-illuminated reticle features that work on 1x. It is no an ideal arrangement, but it is usable.
Here is what it looks like non-illuminated:
And illuminated, though not on full blast:
For a general purpose scope that goes to fairly high illumination, I do prefer FFP. In use, it is comforting to not care at all which magnification I am on.
Now, if you really want non-illuminated visibility on 1x, you kinda have to go with SFP and there Vortex Razor Gen2E 1-6x24 is very nice and very quick, as is the similar Delta Stryker 1-6x24 that is a little lighter. I think the SIg Tango6 1-6x24 is also a related design.
Here is a look through the Stryker 1-6x24:
That having been said, if this is an exercise in planning for a civilizational collapse and what will happen when you can no longer get batteries, you are probably thinking about it the wrong way.
Aside from the fact that you will have many other significantly more important problems than optics selection, you should really be thinking about redundancy. If this is really a plan for something apocalyptic, I would be buying and setting up multiple sighting systems. Everything made by man can and does break occasionally, so you better have backup.
By all means, get the nicest LPVO you can afford, but if also get something simple and durable for backup. For example, something simple like the SWFA SS 3-9x42 with an offset red dot will cost you a lot less money, have a proven track record of durability and provide some redundancy. And it will work better for hunting in low light owing to a large objective lens. You are far more likely to be foraging for food than fighting off hordes of zombies.
To be entirely honest, I am as paranoid as anyone else and I do have two of those SWFA 3-9x42 scopes set up with red dots exactly as I mentioned. I also have Razor Gen3 and S&B Dual CC. And the 1-6 Stryker. And a bunch of other stuff. Scopes come and go all the time. At any given time, I have between 30 and 60 different scopes and red dots here. New stuff gets here all the time and other stuff leaves. However, for every scopable rifle, I have a primary scope and a back up scope. It has nothing with coming apocalypse. I just like redundancy and consider it to be cheap insurance for some of life's quirks.
ILya
Koshkin, do you have a comparison review posted of the vortex gen 3 and the s&b 1-8 anywhere? I would love to read it!
First, thanks MarinePMI and the mod team for rescuing this thread!
Second, Vereor that is some exceptional data, thanks for passing it along. You've really filled in the biggest question mark of all for a SHTF LPVO: reliability/durability. I have some follow up questions of course. Can I ask in what capacity you've been able to gather such a wide breadth of data on so many of these optics?
More to the point, if I read your post right it seems you are saying the only optics in your mind capable of functioning properly and surviving serious impacts (and that have a usable reticle without illuminated) in most cases would be the two Nightforce offerings, and the Trijicon VCOG 1-8x along with their older Accupoint. Is that a fair assessment when it comes to the optic's average durability? If that is true it seems like it would really boil down to a comparison between the VCOG and ATACR. Surprisingly the VCOG purportedly has a wider FOV and longer eye relief, and is only about 4oz heavier when adding a mount to the ATACR (side note, anyone happen to know the height of the integrated VCOG Mount). Are you able to comment more about the performance of each on 1x? If I didn't read your post correctly, what would you pick for your one battery-less LPVO? Lastly, what do you think about the Vortex Gen III, are the durability issues still in play?
On speed, I understand what you mean and I'm sure you are right. To me however, I can tell you that the thing that almost always matters most to me (especially when talking about speed) in an optic is how easy it is to get behind. Not just in ideal conditions but in all conditions, which is why a large eye box is something I really appreciate. That's why the Khales K18i is so appealing, but if they really aren't that durable then it just doesn't fit my use here. If I start competing I might pick one up.
koshkin, thanks again for the great info and pics! Visuals really help. Looks like the S&B is out for me. The Razor...well it kinds just looks like a smaller version of the ATACR reticle on 1x. As you say, workable but not ideal. What do you think about Vereor's comments on Vortex reliability (or just the comment in general)? Lastly, how do you feel about the ATACR and the VCOG 1-8x, or even the Primary Arms Platinum 1-8x PLx?
I also wanted to comment on your SHTF piece at the end. Again, I agree that optics are way down on the SHTF (or whatever) list. With anything firearms related for serious use for civilians we are already talking minuscule probabilities, this is just a small slice of that pie. I also agree on redundancy and your setup. I actually have a similar setup with a SWFA 10x42 and a 6x42 with 45 degree red dots (holosuns for now). I really like them for what they are, simple and durable. My thoughts in looking for an LPVO specifically and starting this thread was basically realizing that every single "up close" CQB style optic I had was completely battery dependent. If there were no more batteries and I/we were still alive, I'd be using irons up close which is fine but far from ideal. Hence the topic for this thread. Whatever I get, I'll be sure to try to stack it as deep as time and money allow.
All input still welcome.
Second, Vereor that is some exceptional data, thanks for passing it along. You've really filled in the biggest question mark of all for a SHTF LPVO: reliability/durability. I have some follow up questions of course. Can I ask in what capacity you've been able to gather such a wide breadth of data on so many of these optics?
More to the point, if I read your post right it seems you are saying the only optics in your mind capable of functioning properly and surviving serious impacts (and that have a usable reticle without illuminated) in most cases would be the two Nightforce offerings, and the Trijicon VCOG 1-8x along with their older Accupoint. Is that a fair assessment when it comes to the optic's average durability? If that is true it seems like it would really boil down to a comparison between the VCOG and ATACR. Surprisingly the VCOG purportedly has a wider FOV and longer eye relief, and is only about 4oz heavier when adding a mount to the ATACR (side note, anyone happen to know the height of the integrated VCOG Mount). Are you able to comment more about the performance of each on 1x? If I didn't read your post correctly, what would you pick for your one battery-less LPVO? Lastly, what do you think about the Vortex Gen III, are the durability issues still in play?
On speed, I understand what you mean and I'm sure you are right. To me however, I can tell you that the thing that almost always matters most to me (especially when talking about speed) in an optic is how easy it is to get behind. Not just in ideal conditions but in all conditions, which is why a large eye box is something I really appreciate. That's why the Khales K18i is so appealing, but if they really aren't that durable then it just doesn't fit my use here. If I start competing I might pick one up.
koshkin, thanks again for the great info and pics! Visuals really help. Looks like the S&B is out for me. The Razor...well it kinds just looks like a smaller version of the ATACR reticle on 1x. As you say, workable but not ideal. What do you think about Vereor's comments on Vortex reliability (or just the comment in general)? Lastly, how do you feel about the ATACR and the VCOG 1-8x, or even the Primary Arms Platinum 1-8x PLx?
I also wanted to comment on your SHTF piece at the end. Again, I agree that optics are way down on the SHTF (or whatever) list. With anything firearms related for serious use for civilians we are already talking minuscule probabilities, this is just a small slice of that pie. I also agree on redundancy and your setup. I actually have a similar setup with a SWFA 10x42 and a 6x42 with 45 degree red dots (holosuns for now). I really like them for what they are, simple and durable. My thoughts in looking for an LPVO specifically and starting this thread was basically realizing that every single "up close" CQB style optic I had was completely battery dependent. If there were no more batteries and I/we were still alive, I'd be using irons up close which is fine but far from ideal. Hence the topic for this thread. Whatever I get, I'll be sure to try to stack it as deep as time and money allow.
All input still welcome.
The Gen3 is just fine at 1x and the BDC work awesome for me 8-10x.
Without illumination it works, with illumination it's essentially an Aimpoint.
The only downsides for me:
1. I'm not the biggest fan of the translucent reticle when shooting at black targets for groups. It just doesn't look good to me. But, shooting at anything else, steel, cardboard IDPA targets, etc. It's fine.
2. It's slightly dark at 10x. On a sunny day, targets in a pretty shady spot were hard to spot. It wasn't a complete hindrance, but noticable. I couldn't compare any other scopes to it, so I'm not sure how they'd preform in that scenario.
Overall I love this scope. The BDC lines up perfect for me. My girlfriend got easy first round hits on a 10" target at 400 by just saying "use the 4 line".
Without illumination it works, with illumination it's essentially an Aimpoint.
The only downsides for me:
1. I'm not the biggest fan of the translucent reticle when shooting at black targets for groups. It just doesn't look good to me. But, shooting at anything else, steel, cardboard IDPA targets, etc. It's fine.
2. It's slightly dark at 10x. On a sunny day, targets in a pretty shady spot were hard to spot. It wasn't a complete hindrance, but noticable. I couldn't compare any other scopes to it, so I'm not sure how they'd preform in that scenario.
Overall I love this scope. The BDC lines up perfect for me. My girlfriend got easy first round hits on a 10" target at 400 by just saying "use the 4 line".
X2 on the ACSS reticle, the horseshoe is very quick up close and doesn't get in the way on a FFP when using higher magnification. Best "do everything" reticle in my opinion.
Seems like they need to up his dose.
That looks like a fantastic reticle. I know what I'm going to be looking at in the future. Thanks!
Honestly Ive personally had great luck with US OPTICS. Their SVS 1-6 got discontinued and you can pick it up for about $900 right now on Eurooptic or Opticsplanet. Ive been having a hard time saying no to it. Has less of a Christmas tree reticle. And the better glass of their B series scopes.
I’m probably going to regret this....
To be clear- if I could guarantee the function of the Gen II Razor 1-6x, it would be the optic I would use for your stated needs. However, in using a bunch of them the reliability and zero retention is not there. Same for most others. People will squeal at that, fair enough. Before stating such and such unit uses, or 3-gun popularity, etc.: ask yourself this- how many users are zeroing their rifles and pulling enough ammo from a single lot number to check zero retention for the entire barrels life? The answer is no one. The reason that people think all these scopes are so great is because they are not tracking zero retention in any meaningful way.
For your stated uses it would be between the SWFA SS 1-6x HD, NF NX8 1-8x, and NF ATACR 1-8x. Of those, for the stated use for me- NX8. Reliability, durability, size, and weight- it crushes everything else. The Trijicon VCOG 1-6x isn’t in consideration due its many shortcomings, and the 1-8x version doesn’t offer anything over the three above yet adds considerable size and weight.
Between the ATACR and 1-8x VCOG, the ATACR is better in every way. Well, some might like the circle on 1x better without illumination, but the NF is totally functional without it as well. The ATACR has a better eyebox, turrets, size, weight, and reticle when you do have batteries. The reticle on high power can be a wash depending on you preferences.
As for speed/usability in alternate positions- it’s really a wash. Using full kit- armor, helmet, belt, pistol, etc., time differences between them for the 9 hole VTAC drill on an 8” target at 100m is completely lost in the noise. World class comp shooters may be a second or two faster, everyone else it’s not even worth factoring.
There is a visual comfort that comes into play and that makes it seem like some are much faster/easier than others, but the targets and timer says no. For instance, for me I had thought the NX8 would be measurably slower than the Razor. Yet after a few thousand rounds in most conceivable uses, there was only a slight statistical difference inside 100m. Past that, due FFP the NX8 was faster. Either your index and alignment is solid or it not. If it is, you can use most anything, if it isn’t, everything is going to give you problems.
Left to right-
Minox ZP8- 2k’ish rounds, S&B SDII CC- 3k’ish rounds, ATACR- well over 100k, Razor Gen II- over 40k probably not quite 60k rounds, 1-6x VCOG- 30k’ish rounds, newer NX8, a bit over 20k IIRC.
The Minox loses zero from top impacts above 3ft. Otherwise works fine. S&B works. ATACR works- it, and about two dozen more have never had to be rezeroed unless barrel replacements. That specific Razor works, though adjustments are not correct. VCOG works except you can not get it focused to work at both low and high powers. NX8 works- and same as the ATACR.
I’m probably going to regret this....
To be clear- if I could guarantee the function of the Gen II Razor 1-6x, it would be the optic I would use for your stated needs. However, in using a bunch of them the reliability and zero retention is not there. Same for most others. People will squeal at that, fair enough. Before stating such and such unit uses, or 3-gun popularity, etc.: ask yourself this- how many users are zeroing their rifles and pulling enough ammo from a single lot number to check zero retention for the entire barrels life? The answer is no one. The reason that people think all these scopes are so great is because they are not tracking zero retention in any meaningful way.
For your stated uses it would be between the SWFA SS 1-6x HD, NF NX8 1-8x, and NF ATACR 1-8x. Of those, for the stated use for me- NX8. Reliability, durability, size, and weight- it crushes everything else. The Trijicon VCOG 1-6x isn’t in consideration due its many shortcomings, and the 1-8x version doesn’t offer anything over the three above yet adds considerable size and weight.
Between the ATACR and 1-8x VCOG, the ATACR is better in every way. Well, some might like the circle on 1x better without illumination, but the NF is totally functional without it as well. The ATACR has a better eyebox, turrets, size, weight, and reticle when you do have batteries. The reticle on high power can be a wash depending on you preferences.
As for speed/usability in alternate positions- it’s really a wash. Using full kit- armor, helmet, belt, pistol, etc., time differences between them for the 9 hole VTAC drill on an 8” target at 100m is completely lost in the noise. World class comp shooters may be a second or two faster, everyone else it’s not even worth factoring.
There is a visual comfort that comes into play and that makes it seem like some are much faster/easier than others, but the targets and timer says no. For instance, for me I had thought the NX8 would be measurably slower than the Razor. Yet after a few thousand rounds in most conceivable uses, there was only a slight statistical difference inside 100m. Past that, due FFP the NX8 was faster. Either your index and alignment is solid or it not. If it is, you can use most anything, if it isn’t, everything is going to give you problems.
Left to right-
Minox ZP8- 2k’ish rounds, S&B SDII CC- 3k’ish rounds, ATACR- well over 100k, Razor Gen II- over 40k probably not quite 60k rounds, 1-6x VCOG- 30k’ish rounds, newer NX8, a bit over 20k IIRC.
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The Minox loses zero from top impacts above 3ft. Otherwise works fine. S&B works. ATACR works- it, and about two dozen more have never had to be rezeroed unless barrel replacements. That specific Razor works, though adjustments are not correct. VCOG works except you can not get it focused to work at both low and high powers. NX8 works- and same as the ATACR.
What kind of loss of zero are you seeing with the Vortex and under what kind of conditions? Like after firing 1k rounds it moves .5".
This is the first I'm hearing of this, and I think you're right: most people don't frequently check zero with same ammo lot. I never noticed a loss of practical accuracy with my LPVOs. I'm not shooting MOA targets, or using the same ammo, or putting over 10k rounds through one setup.
I'm totally jelous of all your scopes though lol
Vereor, I appreciate how much detailed info you share with us. Have you had a chance to test out the new razor gen 3 yet?
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