Sniping In The Ukraine

[Longshot231]

Is it just military guys? Or is it one of those competitions that you see in Europe sometimes where they combine the civilian long range guys and the military for informal comps? I only ask because there isn't any consistent uniforms between them and basically every model of high end rifle that the west makes in that video. I think about the only constant is that they are chambered in 338LM....

Also, thanks for posting this stuff. Particularly Lobaev's progress. It's interesting to see how fast Russia's defence industry is adapting.

Also keep in mind that they could be using Hornady ammunition. Unless I missed it, they did not show any ammunition boxes with brand names on them.

American ammunition, Russian rifles

A POLITICO investigation found Russian military suppliers have declared imports of American-made ammunition.

www.politico.com

 

[mikeb127]

Also keep in mind that they could be using Hornady ammunition. Unless I missed it, they did not show any ammunition boxes with brand names on them.

American ammunition, Russian rifles

A POLITICO investigation found Russian military suppliers have declared imports of American-made ammunition.

www.politico.com

Possibly. At 2:36 it looks like at least one guy is running handloads. While you can't read the headstamps, just going off memory the headstamp on those isn't 'crowded' enough to be hornady.

Edit: At 15:16 you have different primers in what looks to be other handloads. I think this is just a 'rung what you brung' for ammo

 

[Mr.BR]

Is it just military guys? Or is it one of those competitions that you see in Europe sometimes where they combine the civilian long range guys and the military for informal comps? I only ask because there isn't any consistent uniforms between them and basically every model of high end rifle that the west makes in that video. I think about the only constant is that they are chambered in 338LM....

Also, thanks for posting this stuff. Particularly Lobaev's progress. It's interesting to see how fast Russia's defence industry is adapting.

You will not see one single set of uniforms that matches lots of discretion at what is used and NGOs are supplying all sorts of stuff.

This one is military but note (civilian NGOs organize many of these comps so wouldn't be suprised if some of them mix in) in regards to western rifles DT and AI were popular buy in SF units before 2014 while . Styer is probably the most common foreign sniper rifle, Lobaev pre war was mostly a fringe rifle used by presidential detail and some 3 leter agencies , but as it was more expensive than the imports no wonder they did not find wider adoption.

Lots of reloads and Hornady are being used. Precision ammo is one of their bottle necks as domestic manufacturers used to load Lapua components .

Note a DSR an extremely rare beast even in Europe , Desert Tech is in some ways a cheap clone of DSR -Bulpup DSR and DTA got rave reviews when they evaluated them ,DTA was probably chosen as its a much cheaper rifle and possibly better suited to dirt and grime, have seen DSR seize up in fine sand when competing against them.

 

[Mr.BR]

Russian ATACR clones are slowly progresing in small batch production

 

[Clearlight]

It looks like Lobaev new scope is ready for testing ,2 prototypes from the 20 prototype batch

As i posted prior it seems they took apart a NF scope and built a similar scope, Its a wholy crowdfunded project under Lobaev but likely done 'after hours' at an optical manufacturer.

Google translated
Based on the results of product testing (objective or instrumental and subjective), we recorded the following key characteristics of the sight:

Magnification 5 - 35x
Total length - 423 mm
Lens diameter, external - 66 mm
Lens diameter, internal - 56 mm
The outer diameter of the tube is 34 mm
The outer diameter of the eyepiece is 47 mm
FFP
Reticle - LA59 (clone of H59)
Exit pupil - ~14 mm at 5x and ~3.6 mm at 35x
Field of view/100m - ~6.7 m at 5x and ~1.6 m at 35x
The distance from the eyepiece to the eye is 110 mm
Correction management - vertical 29 mrad, horizontal 17 mrad with optional possibility of increasing up to 35mrad vertically and up to 20mrad horizontally. Equipped with a zero stop.
0.1mrad clicks
Lenses- ED optics (extra low-dispersion), with high resolution, all optical elements are multi-coated.

Approximately 6 months have passed from the beginning of prototyping to the pre-production sample. We have something to be happy about. We not only reproduced characteristics of the best sight in the world of the Nightforce ATACR but also surpassed it in some parameters. The sight turned out to have higher light transmission and an increased field of view. Plus, we paid special attention to getting greater eye relief (to better suit use on high recoil arms). And it also succeeded - 110 mm!

We still have a lot of work to do on building production processes for serial production. Well, in the short term, we have firing tests. We are going to use 2 prototypes in daily shootings. And we shoot a lot.

After that, the sights will begin to be shipped for testing and experimental operation.


View attachment 8261802
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Intersting, thanks for posting. Anything made at LOW is inherently designed to be relatively easy to assemble, machine, so I’m not surprised. Laser etching the reticle, and sourcing the glass might be the hardest part.

 

[Longshot231]

Intersting, thanks for posting. Anything made at LOW is inherently designed to be relatively easy to assemble, machine, so I’m not surprised. Laser etching the reticle, and sourcing the glass might be the hardest part.

I read some information and watched some videos, years ago, that said that just about 99% of the glass for lenses was ground in China. Sorry but I can't find that information now except for this video which is 11 years old.

So it is a good guess that if Russia wasn't producing their own glass, they are probably getting it from China.

 

[Mr.BR]

I read some information and watched some videos, years ago, that said that just about 99% of the glass for lenses was ground in China. Sorry but I can't find that information now except for this video which is 11 years old.

So it is a good guess that if Russia wasn't producing their own glass, they are probably getting it from China.

Russia has a domestic glass-cutting grinding coating industry. I would have to look for it for a while , but years ago i posted pictorial on one forum, where practically all steps were pictured from raw block of glass to multicoating at some Russian riflescope factory.

You have to understand that often somewhat obscure eastern optics manufacturers have complete glass-making capacity which is not the case with most western manufacturers, so in Europe aside from German manufacturers most lens-making capability is in the former east block all remnants of the communist era

Ukrainians probably have more scope lens manufacturing capability than all US-based riflescope manufacturers combined and then some. Most riflescope manufacturers have none they are just assembling stuff ground, polished and multicoated by a supplier in China,Japan,German, etc

But when you are talking small batches who knows, glass could be German,Japanese ,Chinese ,Russian or most likely a combination of them like it is in most commercially available scopes although these days import substitution is the name of the game in Russia.

But you are probably correct there is likely lots of Chinese ground glass in riflescopes. But keep in mind when you are talking 99% understand that 99% scopes sold on the market that are sub 500$ MSRP , high end scopes we use probably do not come close to representing 1% of the market.

 

[pmclaine]

Russia has a domestic glass-cutting grinding coating industry. I would have to look for it for a while , but years ago i posted pictorial on one forum, where practically all steps were pictured from raw block of glass to multicoating at some Russian riflescope factory.

You have to understand that often somewhat obscure eastern optics manufacturers have complete glass-making capacity which is not the case with most western manufacturers, so in Europe aside from German manufacturers most lens-making capability is in the former east block all remnants of the communist era

Ukrainians probably have more scope lens manufacturing capability than all US-based riflescope manufacturers combined and then some. Most riflescope manufacturers have none they are just assembling stuff ground, polished and multicoated by a supplier in China,Japan,German, etc

But when you are talking small batches who knows, glass could be German,Japanese ,Chinese ,Russian or most likely a combination of them like it is in most commercially available scopes although these days import substitution is the name of the game in Russia.

But you are probably correct there is likely lots of Chinese ground glass in riflescopes. But keep in mind when you are talking 99% understand that 99% scopes sold on the market that are sub 500$ MSRP , high end scopes we use probably do not come close to representing 1% of the market.

I’m guessing for most of the Cold War era up into the 2000s Russian glass was being ground on manufacturing equipment and processes removed from Germany after WWII.

There shit isn’t as crap as everyone makes it out to be.

Just a bit cruder. Probably built to 70% and above grade.

Not A work but it passes and would probably survive a drop test or two.

 

[Darayavaus]

I read some information and watched some videos, years ago, that said that just about 99% of the glass for lenses was ground in China. Sorry but I can't find that information now except for this video which is 11 years old.

So it is a good guess that if Russia wasn't producing their own glass, they are probably getting it from China.

I wanted to smack Fudd McGoober in the head every time he said "Lee-O'pold" it's spelled and pronounced LEU-POLD.

 

[Mr.BR]

I’m guessing for most of the Cold War era up into the 2000s Russian glass was being ground on manufacturing equipment and processes removed from Germany after WWII.

There shit isn’t as crap as everyone makes it out to be.

Just a bit cruder. Probably built to 70% and above grade.

Not A work but it passes and would probably survive a drop test or two.

Machines looked 'digital era'

Their QC leaves a lot to be desired, small internal market ( at least till a couple of years ago when gun laws were liberalized considerably)not much development and revenue outside governmental contracts.

The only game where they remained competitive was NV and IR consumer optics ,Pulsar,ATN, Yukon etc much of the portfolio was built in Ukraine or Russia

That is why this ATACR clone project is being done.To get up to speed in modern FFP optics. But i can imagine its one thing to make small batches of these scopes and whole next-level problems appear when you want to scale production.

Only other modern FFP think is Dedal Harrier 4-28x56- Dark lord of Optics made a review of one some time ago is no ZCO but its better than folk might imagine.

One interesting thing there is quite a lot of know-how in the field of 'intelligent' optics, probably because the most successful scope manufacturers are their NV and IR optic manufacturers so no surprise digitalization is migrating into day scopes

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

I’m guessing for most of the Cold War era up into the 2000s Russian glass was being ground on manufacturing equipment and processes removed from Germany after WWII.

Glass is so much better now than even a couple of decades ago, much less WWII

 

[pmclaine]

Glass is so much better now than even a couple of decades ago, much less WWII

Agreed.

Do you think most military members are that level of enthusiast that they could tell?

People here are enthusiasts, military people tend to be more pragmatic.

First question might be “What’s it weigh?”

Glass quality may be way down that list as long as it’s not like looking through milk.

 

[Clearlight]

Machines looked 'digital era'

Their QC leaves a lot to be desired, small internal market ( at least till a couple of years ago when gun laws were liberalized considerably)not much development and revenue outside governmental contracts.

The only game where they remained competitive was NV and IR consumer optics ,Pulsar,ATN, Yukon etc much of the portfolio was built in Ukraine or Russia

That is why this ATACR clone project is being done.To get up to speed in modern FFP optics. But i can imagine its one thing to make small batches of these scopes and whole next-level problems appear when you want to scale production.

Only other modern FFP think is Dedal Harrier 4-28x56- Dark lord of Optics made a review of one some time ago is no ZCO but its better than folk might imagine.

One interesting thing there is quite a lot of know-how in the field of 'intelligent' optics, probably because the most successful scope manufacturers are their NV and IR optic manufacturers so no surprise digitalization is migrating into day scopes

Yup, and cheap thermal units from Belarus. F trying to hide in the the snow, when even shitty Russian inf has thermal.

 

[JJMoody]

I wanted to smack Fudd McGoober in the head every time he said "Lee-O'pold" it's spelled and pronounced LEU-POLD.

 

[babyguppy]

I wanted to smack Fudd McGoober in the head every time he said "Lee-O'pold" it's spelled and pronounced LEU-POLD.

as you drive down RO DA O drive?
pffff, or do you go to a Rodeo?

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

You do not "drive" down it, you roll down it.



So now I'm rollin' down Rodeo wit a shotgun
These people ain't seen a brown skin man
Since their grandparents bought one

 

[cas6969]

Do we have anything like that available here and do they work? Inquiring minds want to know.

View attachment 8295252

Isn't that just a thing to scrub/dry your back?

 

[Longshot231]

It appears that the two-way ELR operations in the Ukraine might have a factor in choosing a new sniper rifle for SOCOM.

The first article says the rifle must be capable of firing the the 300 Norma Magnum bullet. My guess is that they meant the round not just the bullet.

Isn't the 338 LM the darling of the sniping war for both sides now?

https://www.businessinsider.com/soc...pers-deal-damage-in-modern-combat-2024-1?op=1

US Military Searching for New Long-Range Sniper Rifle in Bid to Keep Edge over Russia and China

U.S. Special Operations Command is searching for an "Extreme Long Range-Sniper Rifle" to replace the Barrett M107 and Mk 15 sniper rifles currently in its arsenal.

www.military.com

 

[Mr.BR]

The new scope in final form supposedly going trough resting with large caliber rifles.

Meanwhile in Best Korea , comrade Kim liked Lobaev rifles he has seen in Russia so much best Korea Military industrial complex had to make a clone.

 

[Mr.BR]

DIY remote controlled tripod for being used by the snipers

In many ways similar in function to much more refined TCrow or Xcrow remote control thermal carriers i have on my desk

 

[mikeb127]

The new scope in final form supposedly going trough resting with large caliber rifles.

View attachment 8417455

View attachment 8417456


Meanwhile in Best Korea , comrade Kim liked Lobaev rifles he has seen in Russia so much best Korea Military industrial complex had to make a clone.



View attachment 8417473

View attachment 8417474

I would be super interested to see one of these scopes. Even if the glass isn't quite there, if it matches the ATACR in durability and reliability that's still a pretty solid effort.

 

[mikeb127]

DIY remote controlled tripod for being used by the snipers

View attachment 8417488
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View attachment 8417490


In many ways similar in function to much more refined TCrow or Xcrow remote control thermal carriers i have on my desk

View attachment 8417495View attachment 8417496

I admire the Russians creativity with stuff they buy off Aliexpress.....

 

[fpgt72]

I admire the Russians creativity with stuff they buy off Aliexpress.....

Like I have said for years, the Chinese will build anything you want as long as you want to pay for it.

Story time:

I have been looking at the small metal lathes. If you look at them at the face they all look the same, but the cost differences are huge, several thousands between the bottom and the top. Where is that money going. In all the little details. Quite a few here are metal workers and likely know where I am trying to go with this and what I mean here.

All I am saying is the chinese can produce serviceable items, the issue is they just don't know where that line is when left to their own. Remember at the start of this mess with the stuck Russian convoy that sat dead in the water for a few weeks. The cause was cheap chinese rubber parts. Easy things like radiator hoses, fan belts, the $3 part that failed and the entire mess stopped cold.

You really need to remember the chinese have not had a "real" big war since Korea. A few dust ups with Vietnam and India, but those did not go real well for china and are pretty small affairs. The west making a living at war has far more experience. Not any more, with this going on the chinese are learning some very valuable lessons, lessons that will come in handy in the next few months I think.

 

[mikeb127]

Like I have said for years, the Chinese will build anything you want as long as you want to pay for it.

Story time:

I have been looking at the small metal lathes. If you look at them at the face they all look the same, but the cost differences are huge, several thousands between the bottom and the top. Where is that money going. In all the little details. Quite a few here are metal workers and likely know where I am trying to go with this and what I mean here.

All I am saying is the chinese can produce serviceable items, the issue is they just don't know where that line is when left to their own. Remember at the start of this mess with the stuck Russian convoy that sat dead in the water for a few weeks. The cause was cheap chinese rubber parts. Easy things like radiator hoses, fan belts, the $3 part that failed and the entire mess stopped cold.

You really need to remember the chinese have not had a "real" big war since Korea. A few dust ups with Vietnam and India, but those did not go real well for china and are pretty small affairs. The west making a living at war has far more experience. Not any more, with this going on the chinese are learning some very valuable lessons, lessons that will come in handy in the next few months I think.

It kind of cuts both ways though. Using the example above - the Russians version of the 'servicable' item would probably get you change from $100, whereas the TCROW/XCROW probably runs north of 1k. No question that the TCROW/XCROW are superior products, but if you can get the job done for less than $100, is spending the extra money such a good idea? Wouldn't you be better off spending the money in an area that provides you significantly elevated capability?

It's kind of like the whole Mauser vs Enfield argument I guess......

 

[sinister]

Chinese QBU-202 sniper rifle in 338 Lapua with a Schmidt-Bender knock-off. Spotter has a thermal laser rangefinder.

Chinese 338 Lapua cartridge on the right. They need to work on precision.

 

[Longshot231]

Chinese QBU-202 sniper rifle in 338 Lapua with a Schmidt-Bender knock-off. Spotter has a thermal laser rangefinder.

Chinese 338 Lapua cartridge on the right. They need to work on precision.

I don't have any science to base it on but they probably went the brass cased 338LM cause they found out that extracting a fired steel case was as difficult taking a crack pipe out of Hunter Biden's mouth.

 

[mikeb127]

I don't have any science to base it on but they probably went the brass cased 338LM cause they found out that extracting a fired steel case was as difficult taking a crack pipe out of Hunter Biden's mouth.

Some kind of brass/aluminum combo for the projectile?

 

[Terry Cross]

Chinese QBU-202 sniper rifle in 338 Lapua with a Schmidt-Bender knock-off. Spotter has a thermal laser rangefinder.

Corporal Lee looks like he is going to eat the ocular of that S&B knockoff when he lights one off.

.

 

[sinister]

Corporal Lee looks like he is going to eat the ocular of that S&B knockoff when he lights one off.

Spotter's going to get an earful from that brake as well.

 

[45-90]

Cheap Chinese components is what I see.
Pull down and make 510 Whisper cases... for cheap. Then use the 338 bullets for your 8.6 Blackout...perfect for plinking.
Ukrainian government officials well sell you a truck load for the going black market price. Here's your source.

 

[hlee]

Corporal Lee looks like he is going to eat the ocular of that S&B knockoff when he lights one off.

.

You don’t worry about the Lees…

 

[fpgt72]

It kind of cuts both ways though. Using the example above - the Russians version of the 'servicable' item would probably get you change from $100, whereas the TCROW/XCROW probably runs north of 1k. No question that the TCROW/XCROW are superior products, but if you can get the job done for less than $100, is spending the extra money such a good idea? Wouldn't you be better off spending the money in an area that provides you significantly elevated capability?

It's kind of like the whole Mauser vs Enfield argument I guess......

Yes it is, you can extend that to the Springfield, and on the extreme end the Ross.

In some areas the new wiz bang thing might be valuable. Others not so much. The Sgt. York anti aircraft thing is a prime example of everything that is wrong in US weapons making. There is so much money at stake you just can not fail.

I know it is "drama", but we all know it is fairly accurate.

 

[Longshot231]

Some kind of brass/aluminum combo for the projectile?

I saw that. Either they made their own copies of the A-Max or bought a ton of bullets through a middleman from Hornady.

What I was sort of making fun of was the brass case. Most of the time we see either copper washed or polymer coated steel cases.

I bought a case of Wolf .223 ammo a long time ago. The only AR platform that it would work in was a SIG 556 pistol. It sucked in a regular AR-15 cause extraction sucked.

With that said, I wonder if they tried steel 338LM cases.

 

[fpgt72]

I saw that. Either they made their own copies of the A-Max or bought a ton of bullets through a middleman from Hornady.

What I was sort of making fun of was the brass case. Most of the time we see either copper washed or polymer coated steel cases.

I bought a case of Wolf .223 ammo a long time ago. The only AR platform that it would work in was a SIG 556 pistol. It sucked in a regular AR-15 cause extraction sucked.

With that said, I wonder if they tried steel 338LM cases.

Steel cases has been a thing forever. I remember reading a book about a German machine gunner in WWII on the eastern front. They would hoard the brass cased ammo, and use the steel cased ammo for "light" work. If a russian attack would come out with the brass cased boxes. The steel was a jam-o-matic, really bad when the gun was hot.

In Russian stuff it is not as "much" of an issue because of how loose the guns are. But for the marksmen and snipers they always got brass ammo. The exploding ammo was always brass.

 

[Mr.BR]

It kind of cuts both ways though. Using the example above - the Russians version of the 'servicable' item would probably get you change from $100, whereas the TCROW/XCROW probably runs north of 1k. No question that the TCROW/XCROW are superior products, but if you can get the job done for less than $100, is spending the extra money such a good idea? Wouldn't you be better off spending the money in an area that provides you significantly elevated capability?

It's kind of like the whole Mauser vs Enfield argument I guess......

Remote surveilance tripod is an interesting concept. Given all IR optics are fully digital and all have some sort of USB port , you can literally take your IR scope from a rifle or a pocked IR and put it on the tripod and back on the rifle in a minute. Keeping head down while observing , in my opininon the greatest gain is much less fatigue in use of IR optics with a monitor vs ocular.

TCrow and XCrow are cca 1k and 1.8k $ and T crow is very feature rich auto scanning, 2 axis stabilisation ,lock on target while you drive up a LE unit can be set up remotely with WIFI extender. X crow is a bit simpler unit

We supplied TCrow Pulsar Axion2 combo for Border Patrol ,

 

[Rthur]

Corporal Lee looks like he is going to eat the ocular of that S&B knockoff when he lights one off.

.

New model with a .375 eye relief.

R

 

[mikeb127]

Remote surveilance tripod is an interesting concept. Given all IR optics are fully digital and all have some sort of USB port , you can literally take your IR scope from a rifle or a pocked IR and put it on the tripod and back on the rifle in a minute. Keeping head down while observing , in my opininon the greatest gain is much less fatigue in use of IR optics with a monitor vs ocular.

TCrow and XCrow are cca 1k and 1.8k $ and T crow is very feature rich auto scanning, 2 axis stabilisation ,lock on target while you drive up a LE unit can be set up remotely with WIFI extender. X crow is a bit simpler unit

We supplied TCrow Pulsar Axion2 combo for Border Patrol ,

I would of thought that the greatest gain would have been not being shot in the face . It kind of makes me wonder with the amount of trench warfare going on if it's just a case of 'what's old is new again'. Ever since WW1 snipers have used 'remote' (periscopes etc) observation systems to avoid getting shot. Maybe this is just the latest iteration?

As I said, no doubt it is a great product. All I was getting at was that if you don't need all those features, wouldn't you be better off spending the money elsewhere? Contrary to congress's belief, even the US has limited resources.....

 

[Mr.BR]

 

[Emerson0311]

Who is who here? The victorious Ukrainians, or the evil Russians?

 

[Mr.BR]

I would of thought that the greatest gain would have been not being shot in the face . It kind of makes me wonder with the amount of trench warfare going on if it's just a case of 'what's old is new again'. Ever since WW1 snipers have used 'remote' (periscopes etc) observation systems to avoid getting shot. Maybe this is just the latest iteration?

As I said, no doubt it is a great product. All I was getting at was that if you don't need all those features, wouldn't you be better off spending the money elsewhere? Contrary to congress's belief, even the US has limited resources.....

Yes not being shot while conducting observation is definetly high up the priority list.

 

[Mr.BR]

Who is who here? The victorious Ukrainians, or the evil Russians?

Victorious Ukrainians taking a final nap

Some more propaganda

 

[Emerson0311]

Victorious Ukrainians taking a nap

The incessant music is stupid. The billions we sent to Ukraine and they are being downed by pig hunting thermals.

 

[45-90]

Ukraine lost the war...the war is pointless.
Most Russians and most Ukrainian are not evil...just their corrupt governments. Like the US.
Ukraine sided with the Nazis during WW2, had the 2nd largest death camp in Europe. 80,000 Ukrainians joined Nazi SS party to carry out the genocide.
Russia took the brunt of the Nazi eastern European invasion and lost 20 million people, to stop the Nazi advance.
Russia and China were Americas allies during WW2.

Ukraine was never an ally. Neither is Israel.
The US government is not supporting Ukraine for freedom and democracy, because Ukraine is a dictatorship...no elections, Catholic priest jailed, state controlled media, beginning to sound like the US.

The US government and Europe are interested in the 12 Trillion in minerals, natural gas and oil, that is now in Russian hands...the western bankers like Blackrock are heavily invested in getting their hands on those minerals.
The bankers (pay-off) lobbie the politicians to gain access to those huge mineral deposits.
The politicians spend your tax money on war materials and cash to bribe Ukrainian government officials, to take back the lands that contain the rich minerals, for bankers to cash in on their investment.
So government officials, war contractors, and bankers, all get rich...you foot the bill and go indebut.
Hundreds of thousands of Russians and Ukrainians plus a few Americans and allies have been killed... governments do not care, one bit about that.
It's never been about freedom and democracy.... all governments are trying to take that away...no preserve it.
Open your eyes.

 

[vh20]

Videos of people being shot set to c00l music = propaganda. Not to mention the videos show horrible fundamentals and lack realistic traits of recoil (not to mention recoil management). One guy barely hit in the shoulder (if it all) with no perceivable recoil was DRT and never even moved after the shot. Not buying it.

 

[LRRPF52]

Yes it is, you can extend that to the Springfield, and on the extreme end the Ross.

In some areas the new wiz bang thing might be valuable. Others not so much. The Sgt. York anti aircraft thing is a prime example of everything that is wrong in US weapons making. There is so much money at stake you just can not fail.

I know it is "drama", but we all know it is fairly accurate.

Pentagon Wars was not accurate at all. They chose one of the most successful weapons systems in armored warfare history with an unprecedented combat record, and used it as a whipping post for ignoramuses to consume while thinking they were basically watching an entertaining comedic documentary.

If you look at the Bradley performance in ODS, it was brutal against Iraqi armor not only in open terrain, but driving over the crests (kill zones) of Iraqi reverse-slope defenses and then laying into Regimental-sized armored units who were literally parked in their own live fire training ranges, already dialed-in and registered with their main guns and artillery. Didn’t matter, as the Bradley’s and Abrams slayed Iraqi armor as if it were some kind of night sport.

Also keep in mind the Iraqis had 8 continuous years of armored warfare against the Iranians, who were very well-equipped and trained. That included everything from air strikes and chemical weapons used in support of armored movements.

The Iraqis were not amateurs either. After invading Iran with their armored units in 1981, Iran sent a counter-attacking armored force in Operation Nasr, to which the Iraqis anticipated and set up a fake withdrawal and 3-brigade ambush that boxed them in, attriting them relentlessly until Iran lost 214 tanks, 150 APCs, 8 AH-1J Cobra attack helicopters (Iran was US-supplied during the Shah years and bought billions worth of advanced weapons systems and training), and hundreds of casualties.

Keep in mind that none of the US Armored units down at the operational level in ODS had any commanders or NCOs with armored warfare experience, but due to superior training at NTC and their local training ranges and exercises, combined with superior weapons systems and comms, they were able to rip through Iraqi armored units in ways that had never been done before.

Anytime someone brings up the Bradley as some piece of trash Pentagon boondoggle, simply educate them with the Battle of 73 Easting as just one example.

SGT York/DIVAD would have been worked out with time. The idea that the US can’t develop a Radar-guided AAA system simple doesn’t hold water, since we make superior subsystems that comprise that type of weapon.

 

[LRRPF52]

Ukraine lost the war...the war is pointless.
Most Russians and most Ukrainian are not evil...just their corrupt governments. Like the US.
Ukraine sided with the Nazis during WW2, had the 2nd largest death camp in Europe. 80,000 Ukrainians joined Nazi SS party to carry out the genocide.
Russia took the brunt of the Nazi eastern European invasion and lost 20 million people, to stop the Nazi advance.
Russia and China were Americas allies during WW2.

Ukraine was never an ally. Neither is Israel.
The US government is not supporting Ukraine for freedom and democracy, because Ukraine is a dictatorship...no elections, Catholic priest jailed, state controlled media, beginning to sound like the US.

The US government and Europe are interested in the 12 Trillion in minerals, natural gas and oil, that is now in Russian hands...the western bankers like Blackrock are heavily invested in getting their hands on those minerals.
The bankers (pay-off) lobbie the politicians to gain access to those huge mineral deposits.
The politicians spend your tax money on war materials and cash to bribe Ukrainian government officials, to take back the lands that contain the rich minerals, for bankers to cash in on their investment.
So government officials, war contractors, and bankers, all get rich...you foot the bill and go indebut.
Hundreds of thousands of Russians and Ukrainians plus a few Americans and allies have been killed... governments do not care, one bit about that.
It's never been about freedom and democracy.... all governments are trying to take that away...no preserve it.
Open your eyes.

This thread isn’t for that, but I can break down how you’re simply opposite of most of the facts:

You are correct in stating that Russia is corrupt, very corrupt down to the local level and among the people, because of how broken their infrastructure and society are under centuries of Tsars and after adopting atheism as the state religion during the Soviet times. They are one of the most corrupt nations in any international rating index. The way basic services and supply happen in Russia are through strange back-handed deals, benefits of who you know, or straight-up abuse of power.

Russians are inherently reckless people who have surrendered to the idea of a bad life due to poor geography, weather, and internal security apparatus designed to protect them from invaders who want to take back all the territory Russians have stolen from every single nation that borders them. They aren’t political, but know collectively they have to support whoever their current dictator or Tsar is, or suffer the brutal consequences. I lived there and can tell you they are not like other people. Human life is not valued the same in Russia as in the Western world. It’s more Asiatic, after they were ruled and raped by Mongols for 250 years.

US was allied with the USSR in WWII, which included Ukraine. One of the first official moves the Marxist FDR made upon assuming the US Presidency in 1933 was recognizing Stalin and the Communists as the leaders of Russia and Ukraine, not the legitimate Russian Nationalists. The Russian Holodomor Genocide against Ukraine was still ongoing, devolving into necrophagy after millions were forcibly starved to death on their own lands. This is one of the main motivating factors in Ukrainian independence.

This is why Ukrainians sided with the Nazis when they came through as liberators during WWII, which anyone here would have done as well with Stalin’s artificial famine imposed on them fresh in their minds.

As to mineral and oil deposits: Kharkiv has huge oil fields that were recently rediscovered, and they also discovered large fields right off the coast of Odessa. This threatened Russia’s sole provider status through the pipelines that already ran through northwest Ukraine, so Putin worked hard to suppress the development of these fields with his puppet, Yanukovych.

Putin also used Ukraine for laundering money into his own offshore bank accounts, and into the shell companies of the Clintons, Kerrys, Obamas, and Bidens. Burisma was a money-laundering apparatus for human and sex-trafficking, posing as a small energy company. When Putin lost his puppet Yanukovych in 2014, he had already laid the preparations for blocking the ensuing investigations into Burisma by bribing Vice President Biden and SECSTATE John Kerry using one of his billionaire oligarchs, Elena Baturina, to wire $3.5 million to Rosemont Seneca.

This is one of the biggest scandals in US history that isn’t being covered properly in any media because Americans are largely ignorant of foreign affairs, and can’t see past partisan lenses. There are also a lot of people on both sides of the aisle who have benefitted financially from money-laundering and investments with insider-trading deals that were built to insulate Putin and his accomplices in US political circles from being exposed.

The US doesn’t need oil in Ukraine since we are energy-independent and a net exporter of refined petroleum. Any claims of US interests in minerals or resources in Ukraine are minuscule in comparison to Russian imperatives to control those resources.

Ukraine themselves voted by 79% to open more trade relations with Europe, not be stuck under Russia’s boot. That was in 2013, and then Putin’s puppet Yanukovych signed onto Putin’s Russia-Eurasia Economic Pact. That’s what triggered the Euromaiden protests for 4 months until Yanukovych fled back to Putin. There was no coup, as Russians claim.

Then the money started flowing to Vice President Biden’s crackhead son Hunter, who had just been kicked out of Navy for pissing hot on a urinalysis for cocaine (piss test was 2013, kicked out in 2014). The shell company that Putin’s oligarch wired the money to was Rosemont Seneca, also headed by SECSTATE John Kerry’s stepson, Chris Heinz.

Putin didn’t want his Burisma front company investigated under a regime in Kiev that he could not control, so the long-time traitor Biden and Kerry families were front-and-center willing to use their children as intermediaries to insulate their daddy’s.

Once Poroshenko was elected, he appointed a prosecutor named Viktor Shokin to head-up the anti-corruption cases of his predecessor, who wasn’t allowed to let things progress along their natural paths.

Notice who fought hard to get Shokin fired? Vice President Joe Biden, Obama, the European Central Bank, IMF, and Putin. If you study the Panama Papers, you will see what’s actually going on in the world of criminal elite financiers and their offshore accounts.

Poroshenko didn’t want to fire Shokin because he knew Shokin was trustworthy and would do a great job of finding the criminals involved in pilfering the Ukrainian economy, subverting its government, and keeping it depressed under Russian rule. As a result, there was a sniper assassination attempt on Shokin, but his ballistic windows in his office protected him from being hit. Biden then made the famous threats of withholding $1 Billion in US/IMF aid to Ukraine unless Poroshenko fired Shokin, and Shokin was officially let go but covertly allowed to continue the investigation into Burisma. Then he was poisoned. These facts are absent any of the mainstream coverage of Viktor Shokin, but when you put it all together, it paints a very clear picture of what is happening.

The main conspirators in all of this are:

Vladimir Putin, George Soros, Barrack Obama, Joe Biden, John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Hunter Biden, Chris Heinz, James Biden

Putin paid millions into the above people’s shell companies and accounts in exchange for access to nuclear materials in the Uranium One scandal with the Clintons and Obama/Biden WH, millions into the accounts of John Kerry and the Bidens for Burisma, and I suspect that there are conspirators providing shipments of actively-produced US war material to Russia as we speak.

How else would pallets of Hornady precision ammunition show up to Russia for their Snipers? Hornady isn’t doing that. Someone is purchasing large quantities and shipping it under some type of official cover and getting it into Russia with the blessing of operatives inside the Biden Commerce Dept. There are very tight controls on freight, especially ammunition. It has to be shipped with Shipper’s Declaration of Dangerous Goods with lots of forms and inspections by off-loaders and onloaders at any transport hubs, whether by air or sea.

 

[45-90]

Armor, ..that was then... this is now.
The Bradley and German Leopard have done very poorly in Ukraine. They get destroyed, easily and are death traps according to the Ukrainian tank crews interviewed.
Very easy to destroy a 2.2 million dollar tank with a drone. Plus mine fields, and accurate guided missiles, and artillery.

Russian nuclear sub and a fleet of war
ships docked in Cuba a few days ago...
Did they drop off any nuclear weapons?
Putin warned the west he would arm our neighbors, if we keep firing missiles into Russia, and bring in Nato troops already assembling.
Russia has hypersonic missiles with nuclear war heads, as well as China.
We do not. Russia is ahead of the US in 19 of 23 military technologies.
That Russian sub off the coast, carries hypersonic nuclear missiles.

Washington and New York are defenseless targets against just that one weapons system.
Russia has more nuclear power than the US and a larger standing army.
Infrastructure and industry to build everything heavy, for war, Russia can now out produce the US 18 times over.
We gave our industrial power to China.
Russia just put a military satellite in space, in the same orbit as our military guidance satellites.
Past time to compromise on peace in Ukraine...there is nothing there that's important to Americans security...never was.

 

[eca7891]

That Russian sub off the coast, carries hypersonic nuclear missiles.

Intel reports state it’s an anti-ship sub.

No nuclear weapons.

 

[Mr.BR]

Intel reports state it’s an anti-ship sub.

No nuclear weapons.

Sort of Kazan is Yasen-M mostly armed with cruise missiles

H I Sutton - Covert Shores

 

[LRRPF52]

Armor, ..that was then... this is now.
The Bradley and German Leopard have done very poorly in Ukraine. They get destroyed, easily and are death traps according to the Ukrainian tank crews interviewed.
Very easy to destroy a 2.2 million dollar tank with a drone. Plus mine fields, and accurate guided missiles, and artillery.

Russian nuclear sub and a fleet of war
ships docked in Cuba a few days ago...
Did they drop off any nuclear weapons?
Putin warned the west he would arm our neighbors, if we keep firing missiles into Russia, and bring in Nato troops already assembling.
Russia has hypersonic missiles with nuclear war heads, as well as China.
We do not. Russia is ahead of the US in 19 of 23 military technologies.
That Russian sub off the coast, carries hypersonic nuclear missiles.

Washington and New York are defenseless targets against just that one weapons system.
Russia has more nuclear power than the US and a larger standing army.
Infrastructure and industry to build everything heavy, for war, Russia can now out produce the US 18 times over.
We gave our industrial power to China.
Russia just put a military satellite in space, in the same orbit as our military guidance satellites.
Past time to compromise on peace in Ukraine...there is nothing there that's important to Americans security...never was.

Russia is not ahead of the US in any technology. Whoever told you this is a retard.

Russia never had more nukes than the US because they lacked the capacity to make that many and didn’t trust subordinate units dispersed all over the USSR with them, given that every satellite state hated Russia historically. They ran a shell game with warheads throughout the Cold War to scare Washington from ever launching preemptive strikes. What we saw was them taking warheads from enrichment and production facilities and dishing them out to the units, mainly Murmansk and some air bases, then bringing the warheads back. It’s why there was such a priority in US NRO/Geospatial Intelligence to get thermal cameras in our satellites to confirm what HUMINT and SIGINT indicated.

It’s one of the reasons why they spent so much effort finding cheap, compromised political candidates to get into the US Senate to champion SALT and SALT II. A young pedophile from Delaware fit that bill perfectly for them, as pedophiles don’t require as much money when being bribed. They used Council for a Livable World to finance his hopeless campaign, with a little help in vote-counting and got a no-name village idiot into the Senate. His name was Joseph Biden. They got 420 members of Congress, Governors, and Presidents into office with the help of that political action front. Their main effort is subterfuge and asymmetric action, not industrial might and military power.

In order for a ballistic missile sub to get authorization to deploy with nukes, the entire crew was vetted extensively for loyalty to the party and Russia, and had political commissars and covert plants hidden among the crew as well. Any Russian leader who had studied Russian history even briefly would not entrust mass-deployment of nuclear forces as was advertised. These guys take paranoid to levels not seen in the US outside of mental institutions.

They were a broke joke industrially, with lots of circus tricks trying to look like the big bear. It was a ruse, nothing more. Biggest industrial inputs Russia had ever seen were from the US with Henry Ford and Studebaker, then Lend-Lease during the War.

Russian infrastructure is out-dated, broken-down, rotting, and almost non-existent compared to the US, especially when it comes to military systems, transportation, sea ports, highways, rail, hospitals, universities, you name it. The US currently has 4 fighter lines open, for example, while Russia couldn’t even deliver the first production Su-57 to the VVS without it crashing on its Functional Check Flight. They are literally a joke.

The US gave our industrial power to China did we? I guess that’s why the US is the 2nd largest exporter in the world, and only 15% of our industry is geared to exports. Our domestic consumption makes our exports almost seem insignificant, and we’re still 2nd in exports in the entire world, 1st in quality of exports.

Stopping Russia in Ukraine is part of keeping them from moving into more of Europe. This was Putin’s plan already from day 1 when he assumed the Presidency in January 2000. That’s straight from high-level ministers in the Russian Foreign Ministry who were bragging about it in the early 2000s. Putin’s plan is to take back any former Russian territories from the Tsarist and Soviet Times. Ukraine is just in the way of getting to Poland and Romania.

You have a ton of studying to do before ever posting on this topic again if you want to be taken seriously. The above things you posted are simply erroneous.