So cleaning barrels?

[cwatson308]

I've read a few posts on cleaning. Some say do some say don't and some say only if accuracy falls. My main question is how can a brass rod harm a barrel being made of softer metal? I mean a bullet traveling 2500fps doesn't harm a barrel so how can a rod harm it?

 

[jwp6114]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cwatson308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I mean a bullet traveling 2500fps doesn't harm a barrel so how can a rod harm it?</div></div>

Harm is a relative term... one might not but 5000 may, so in essance one does. just not much

most damage to barrels is due to heat in my opinion. some will say over cleaning will harm them too, not in my findings... the rabbit hole is deep and everyone has an opinion. get on here and search and read your ass off, soak it all up and decide what practices work for you.

but on the OP: I often wondered this also about the cleaning rods. I am no rocket scientist (but there are some lurking on here) so i think the same way.

 

[cwatson308]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

Yea I have been wondering this for awhile.

 

[jwp6114]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

heres a good one on cleaning,
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3579351&page=1

 

[slapdud]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

It is impossible for a brass rod to harm the stainless steel used in barrels. As far as overcleaning i think you would have to do some serious cleaning with some pretty abrasive chemicals such as JB. Not saying I dont use JB but when you clean with it you are lapping the bore and removing material and every time you push the rod through the bore you are changing the shape of the bore. You can over time create things like egg shaped crowns. Again you would have to be doing some serious scrubbing.

 

[jpspeeddemon]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

When someone references too much cleaning ruins barrels, they're talking about the cleaning solvent reacting with the actual barrel metal. This occurs because people over clean and think they need a clean white patch to come out of the barrel. We all know this is basically impossible to do. Those black streaks you see are the barrel getting eaten away by the cleaning solvent as the solvent is a metal disintegrator/destructor(not sure of the correct professional term).

Over cleaning has nothing to do with rods hitting the bore as most of us know to use a coated rod with a rod guide.

 

[excess]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

I disagree with a lot of this. All my barrels (on my precision guns) are stainless, and are either made by Bartlein or Lothar Walther ( DTA ). I use Bore Tech cleaners exclusively ( both the C4 Carbon and the Cu+2 Copper ). I'd have no qualms leaving either of these chemicals in the bore for long periods of time.

It is in fact the mechanical aspects of cleaning that I'm worried about, at least with my choice of cleaners. I use a carbon rod. My theory is there is no soft plastic jacket for abrasive dirt and other crap to get embedded in.

Also, what about the brass fitting and the jag itself? To the poster that said its impossible for brass to harm stainless steel, that's just plain ridiculous. A softer material like brass may not wear a harder material as fast, but it will still wear it. The keyboard I'm typing on has very smooth and shiny spots on the keys from my ( soft ) fingers wearing on the ( harder ) plastic. Look around, you'll see plenty of other examples that show a softer material can wear a harder one.

I think the biggest threat is the brass fitting or jag being pulled back through the bore to remove the rod, and rubbing against the muzzle when doing so. Once or twice and your rifle will never know, but a few thousand times might be a different story.

A lot of this potential damage can be avoided: high quality bore guide, coated or carbon one piece cleaning rod, wise selection of chemicals, taking care while pulling the jab back through the muzzle, etc.

 

[sib1948]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

CNC said it all.

 

[slapdud]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

I have had alot of study in the materials world due to my job in the nuclear field. When we are talking about adhesive wear (ie. Brass on 4150 stainless steel) dissimilar metals are chosen so that the more readily replaceable metal is made from a softer alloy. The steel is going to wear preferentially to the brass. I didnt say the steel didnt wear but it is at a much slower rate, Hence me saying you would have to do alot of cleaning. This is why most bearing surfaces are trimetal (steel,nickel,copper) To prevent the wear of the steel shafts. The fact that your keyboard has shiny spots on it may be due to years of keyboard strokes but probably more due to the slightly acidic oils in your skin.

 

[excess]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

I've had a little study in materials science myself. I took a course in Friction and Wear for my Masters in Engineering Mechanics. The text we used, Friction and Wear of Materials, Rabinowicz, says "...if two sliding materials have hardness values of Ph and Ps and thus a hardness ratio of R, their wear rates will vary inversely as R^2." So yes, this says the harder material wears slower, revalitvely speaking. It goes further to say "...no matter how much we increase the hardness ratios of the two contacting materials, it does not appear that we can ever reduce the wear of the harder material to zero." Brass can and will wear stainless steel! For his research the author even showed soft polymers like Teflon "will remove quite sizable amounts of matter from metals as strong as a low-carbon steel."

Class dismissed.

 

[slapdud]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

We are in agreement CNC only using different words. Most importantly to the OP it is the mechanical aspect of the cleaning that will remove material from the bore surface. Use a bore guide to help maintain proper alignment of the rod in the bore and be careful when you are exiting and entering the muzzle with rod. Use of a brass rod is not wrong and will not cause any more harm to your bore than an alluminum or coated rod will. I used the word "impossible" to loosely for such a sensitive subject, was just trying to keep things simple.

 

[Frank Green]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

I'll make a couple of comments. One is to brushes. I had a guy argue with me that the brinnel hardness of a brush is only 80 on the hardness scale and the barrels are around 300 so brushes don't do any damage. I disagree especially when the guys is dragging the brush back over the crown. It will damage and wear the crown. Take that bronze brush or worse yet a s.s. one and rub it back and forth on the outside of the barrel. You will see scratches. Now do it several hundred times and see what you get.

Also brushes will hold the black carbon particles. The carbon is very hard and will scratch the bore.

I've also seen guys use brass muzzle guides and over time the crown is all beat to crap.

We see more damage to muzzle crowns from cleaning rod drag and brushes.

I go back to saying "Why can water erode rocks!?"

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[excess]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

Frank, I use your barrels almost exclusively. I don't use brushes at all, just patches. I always use a clean, solvent soaked patch, discarding it after it's been through the bore once. It normally takes me 10 or so patches to get a nearly clean patch. I wipe down the cleaning rod after each pass through the bore to help insure to random crap is getting dragged through the bore. I use a high quality bore guide. When I pull the rod back through the bore I remove the dirty patch and guide the jag through the crown opening as best I can to make sure it does not rub. All this is with Bore Tech C4 Carbon cleaner. I occasionally run a patch through with bore Tech Cu+2 Copper cleaner, but your barrels usually don't hold much copper.

Am I doing this right? Any red flags?

 

[Frank Green]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank, I use your barrels almost exclusively. I don't use brushes at all, just patches. I always use a clean, solvent soaked patch, discarding it after it's been through the bore once. It normally takes me 10 or so patches to get a nearly clean patch. I wipe down the cleaning rod after each pass through the bore to help insure to random crap is getting dragged through the bore. I use a high quality bore guide. When I pull the rod back through the bore I remove the dirty patch and guide the jag through the crown opening as best I can to make sure it does not rub. All this is with Bore Tech C4 Carbon cleaner. I occasionally run a patch through with bore Tech Cu+2 Copper cleaner, but your barrels usually don't hold much copper.

Am I doing this right? Any red flags? </div></div>

No real red flags at all. Your basically doing kinda like I do. After my first patch down the bore I'll take it off and guide the rod back thru. This gets the loose stuff out.

Then I get a patch on my rod and I go down and back. I don't let the tip of the rod come all the way out. No dry patches in between. All wet patches till they come out clean. I use a Parker Hale type jag and roll the patch around it like you roll a cigarette. This will help keep the tip of the rod more centered going down the bore and back. I use no brushes either. I use regular Hoppe's No. 9. If I'm in a hurry I use Sweet's 7.62 solvent and after I'm done with it I follow up with a patch soaked with Rem. bore cleaner and stroke the barrel ten times with that one patch. Dry patch the bore thoroughly and follow up with a light patches of Hoppe's No. 9.

If you have a system you use and your not wrecking nothing than I've got nothing to say. Just because the guy down the road does it differently doesn't mean he is doing it any better.

Another thing that is not really talked about is that the gases from the powder will have a gas cutting effect and will also wear the crown of the barrel as well over time.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[jwp6114]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

Frank,

what do you htink about using PH style jags and not pulling a brush back through the crown?

 

[Frank Green]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JWP6114</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank,

what do you htink about using PH style jags and not pulling a brush back through the crown? </div></div>

That's all I use. PH jags & patches. I use no brushes.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Lowlight]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frank Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JWP6114</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank,

what do you htink about using PH style jags and not pulling a brush back through the crown? </div></div>

That's all I use. PH jags & patches. I use no brushes.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels </div></div>

From the finger tips of the Best Barrel Guys out there...

 

[MacM11]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

It would be difficult to argue with Frank,(either Frank).

 

[jwp6114]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

thats one thing i love most about this site, hearing tips straight from the pro's and manufacturers... many of thoes guy's are on my watched users list

stalker...

 

[cwatson308]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

Thank you Frank for your info.

 

[Whit]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

Frank (either one or both)
What do you think of a nylon brush?

 

[Joebill]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: whit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank (either one or both)
What do you think of a nylon brush?</div></div>

+1
Great Info thanks

 

[David S]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: whit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank (either one or both)
What do you think of a nylon brush?</div></div>

+2

I used to use jags exclusively, but a friend convinced me to move over to nylon brushes followed by jags. If that's a mistake, I'd like to know before I scratch all Hades out of my barrel. Also, how about cleaning the <span style="text-decoration: underline">chamber</span>?? Right now I use a standard chamber brush for my AR 10 followed by chamber stars (followed by a small army of Q-tips).

Yours,

David

 

[JonnyHawes]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

Well I was wondering something on these lines yesterday, glad someone dropped a new thread on it.

Frank, have you any thoughts on The Custom Shop's O-Ring jags? I saw them on Brownells the other day and it seemed like a good idea (in my redneck opinion).

TCS O Ring Patches

 

[1kHIT]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cwatson308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you Frank for your info. </div></div>

+1!!! What an awesome site that someone such as Frank can come on and give valuable information like this, for the benefit of everyone. Thanks!

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: So cleaning barrels?


For chamber cleaning, which I believe is very important, a cotton bore mop on the end of a chamber rod works well. Bore mops are cheap and washable. Be cautious, just as cleaning the barrel, to avoid jabbing the walls of the throat and lands and grooves with the wire core of the bore mop, or use a flannel cloth patch on the end of a dowel. In and out a few times, and a twist with a carbon remover on the end of the mop may help prevent carbon accumulation at the leade. I never use a wire brush of any kind in my chambers or barrels, unless its a junker barrel and as a last resort I'm trying to dislodge crud in an old bore.

Rods? Someone should make a wooden one. I would use it. I've tried long dowels but they don't twist is the only problem, but I like how they have no joint to snag or bounce on a part of the chamber/bore area.

Just don't go nuts with a cleaning rod and fancy tips that do not really fit the rod, and use a rod guide. We take all kinds of care to center the bullet in a case, then in a chamber, but then poke a metal rod around the very critical area of the rifle. Done carelessly and its like brain surgery with a butcher knife.

Cloth and chemicals, used correctly on the right rod, should be the only thing other than ammo we put in our barrels, unless we're a gunsmith.

 

[David S]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JonnyHawes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I was wondering something on these lines yesterday, glad someone dropped a new thread on it.

Frank, have you any thoughts on The Custom Shop's O-Ring jags? I saw them on Brownells the other day and it seemed like a good idea (in my redneck opinion).

TCS O Ring Patches </div></div>

Hi JohnnyHawes,

I have one of those, actually, and it works great. The only thing to watch out for is that the O-ringed jags make the patch's contact with the barrel very snug indeed, so it takes more pressure to push the thing through the barrel. I say from personal experience: DO NOT double up the patches in order to make a tighter fit if you use one of these jags. I did that and actually got it so badly stuck inside my barrel that I had to use enormous pressure (nearly my whole body weight) to push it out. Stick with just <span style="text-decoration: underline">one</span> patch in each pass.

Casey, thanks much for the advice on chamber cleaning--I'm going to throw out my brush right after work today. I did figure it had to be harming the chamber somehow, especially with the steel (?) bristles on its fat part.

Yours,

David

 

[sib1948]

Re: So cleaning barrels?

250 rounds through my 308 and have only used a chamber mop and lubed the bolt 2X. Haven't even molested the barrel with anything and still dead on cold bore and all at 100 and 200 yards. RW Snyder 308 Rem 700R 22 inch. IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT.