pretty good
Good choice of words.
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pretty good
Yeah, I have ammo that shoots better in the Tikka, Zephyr II and the two Anschutz but this is the best so far in the Sako M78. So far two lot numbers have produced great results in the Sako. Here are groups with SK RM and PM. For rimfire testing I prefer to shoot ten 5-shot groups on the same plate. A lot of guys just show a single 5 shot group that looks fantastic, what they don't show are the others. I say, don't try to fool others, a phony will be spotted quick.Good choice of words.
It works for me. That’s what I’m shooting mostly. Of course, I’m only shooting out to about 325 yards, so, somewhat limited verification.
Let us know how it goes.
Thank you, oh wise and great .22 master. Did you even read the first post or are you just trying to sound superior in your vast knowledge? These charts were provided to allow those that have not had the opportunity to shoot .22 at distance to have a place to start. Otherwise finding the right come ups to begin with is a lengthy task.Charts and ballistic coefficients used to build them are a great help but actually shooting at different distances will get the come ups that are precise. Your gun, your lot of ammunition, and your firing range environment (I know the environment changes so test in more than one condition) make for absolute come ups and the limits of accuracy of you and your gun.
Just saying...........
You are right, I probably was a butt with my response. No excuses.Lash, I was not trying to sound as you said "oh wise and great .22 master". Of course I read your first post.
I was trying to help those that use charts and wonder why to did not hit as the chart indicated. Our club shoots a Tactical RF match each month and I see way too many of my fellow shooters relying on the charts without verifying. and missing the targets. My comments were presented to be a helpful reminder only and not an offense to you and your hard and admirable work on this subject.
And you Sir were being a real butt with your comments. Please don't start a pissing contest as I will not play.
Went out to our range Monday (2/3/20). My rifle is a 20" Vudoo with a Bartlein barrel in Kukri contour in a MPA chassis with a Vortex PST II SFP scope. Shot off a wooden bench with a bipod and rear bag filled with heavy sand. Wind was somewhat strong and switching. Temp was 60 degrees. Ammunition was unsorted Eley Match made last year (2019). Rifle was sighted at 50 yards (0 on turrets) to start. Waited for the wind to drop between cycles for the below results.
Resulting actual come-ups were:
110 yards 8.75 MOA up
120 yards 9.75 MOA up
130 yards 12.0 MOA up
140 yards 13.5 MOA up
150 yards 14.75 MOA up
160 yards 16.75 MOA up
170 yards 19.0 MOA up
180 yards 20.5 MOA up
190 yards 26 MOA up
I did this shooting to get my come-ups prior to the up coming "tactical rimfire" match at our club, Benton Gun Club. I used the published results to get an approximate come-up then adjusted based upon actual impacts on targets set up at each distance. The 100 yard and 200 yard target boards blew over before I was able to get my come-ups.
The above is just a report of my come-up on that day. I present these to give you an approximate ballistic chart for your use and of course your results will vary based upon your gun, ammo, and weather conditions.
Yeah, I have ammo that shoots better in the Tikka, Zephyr II and the two Anschutz but this is the best so far in the Sako M78. So far two lot numbers have produced great results in the Sako. Here are groups with SK RM and PM. For rimfire testing I prefer to shoot ten 5-shot groups on the same plate. A lot of guys just show a single 5 shot group that looks fantastic, what they don't show are the others. I say, don't try to fool others, a phony will be spotted quick.
Seems reasonable, but I sure would like to see some definitive measurable tests to support the argument/concept.
I was conversing with an old and very experienced target shooter over the weekend about all the whole optimum barrel length discussion.
There were 3 significant take aways...
1) Anschutz runs longer barrels than max velocity length suggests... I am quick to accept they have good reason considering how well they shoot. They are the gold standard for 22 LR accuracy, and have been for a very long time.
2) Barrel lengths selected for max velocity are typically too short and too light to achieve good balance for PRS shooting with the balance point in front on the mag. Another case for a longer barrel.
3) The longer barrels, while longer than max speed length also serve to allow internal pressures to drop. That in turn reduces muzzle blast and that in turn reduces bullet deflection caused by muzzle blast once the bullet leaves the barrel. So in theory should be more accurate.
Sometimes we focus on one thing (max velocity in this case) instead of what is best for the whole package.
Since ammunition is available in a variety of velocities, it would seem easy enough to achieve the "preferred" muzzle velocity through ammo selection even if that velocity is not the max possible velocity for that particular ammo.
I suspect that the term deflection may have been the wrong one to use in this case. It has been shown that the shape of the muzzle blast does affect things like bullet yaw and velocity robbing drag. These items definitely affect results down range. Maybe not as a bullet deflection, but more like variations in velocity and variations induced by excess bullet yaw.Could you please clarify #3? I can visualize muzzle blast doing something bad to the bullet, But I don't see it causing deflection/trajectory. To my way of thinking the deflection starts at the instant of ignition and continues the entire time that the bullet is in the bbl. Once the bullet is out of the bbl. virtually nothing you do matters.
To state it in another way, if you could hold the bbl. level, the only deflection that you would see is downward deflection regardless of bbl length. Certainly the velocity varies with bbl length.
Shawn
You could think of it this way...
I'll exaggerate the point for easy math.
Suppose you have a 20 inch barrel and at 20 inches you have hit the fastest possible muzzle velocity...
Now consider a 40 inch barrel... (I know its a ridiculous length but please play along for illustration purposes)
The internal pressure at 40 inches would be half of the internal pressure at 20 inches, because it is the same pressure spread over twice the volumetric area.
So that would mean there is half the muzzle blast pressure.
By reducing muzzle blast pressure, the thinking is that this should to some degree reduce the negative influence this blast of air my impart on the bullet once it leaves the barrel.
It would also slightly reduce recoil.
Since its about accuracy, any slight edge is an edge that could make a difference between top competitors.
It wont mean a thing to a plinker.
Get a good data book and track your real world data few matches and a few trips to range you will have your .22 figured out.
Being in the barrel causes friction and slows it down too right? So if your goal is 50 yard benchrest, then losing velocity isn't really going to be hurting much. So sure 26" barrel. Doing long range, we want the velocity to be coming out a decent speed.
Talking with MB @ Vudoo, their ELR rigs are 22" but also faster spinning barrels with heavier weight projectiles.
The guys at Vudoo (from what I'm told) place an emphasis on getting the fastest possible speed out of the barrel and went to great efforts to determine what barrel length provides that.
The problem is that maximum speed is not a requirement (for ELR or 50 yard bench rest) and might be a detriment to accuracy considering the above because the max velocity barrel length is also the max muzzle blast pressure length.
If you run a 26 inch barrel with Eley Force for example, you will still be well into a high performance velocity range but muzzle blast pressures will be reduced.
With a 22LR you want to stay below the speed of sound, no matter what.
So if your barrel was long enough, you could theoretically run supersonic ammo but get sub sonic velocity because the barrel is long enough to cause that.
Bottom line is that Anschutz has own the best 22LR target rifle market for a long time. I'm not saying someone could not come up with something better, but it better actually be better.
In the case of these 20 to 22 inch barrels, selected for max velocity, I'm not buying it as the "best choice" and personally would prefer something in the 26 inch range.
Barrel length affects the rifles balance and you want a forward heavy rifle for PRS style shooting, otherwise you cannot balance the rifle on the obstacle because it will be butt heavy and then you need to steer it from the back. You being the least stable part of the firing position.
These days we run the shortest barrel possible for velocity targets and use weights to balance the rifle. This keeps the profile of the rifle small for barricades. Sticking your rifle in and out of a cargo net or other barricade takes more time when your barrel is 26" vs 18". For rimfire matches, 18" is great. For PRS, depending on load and distance a lot of folks will be running a 26" to get the velocity they want to hit out to 1200 yards in matches.
I get the sales pitch.
I'm just not buyin it. (if guys like you repeat it enough, lots of guys will.)
But hey, go with whatever you like. It's a free world.
Case in point... The guy who won the last match I was in had weights screwed to the side of his forend that stuck out 6 inches in front of his muzzle. If the weights had been shorter, he would have needed more of it to get the balance he was after.
We can debate the theory all we want. In the end, it's just about how well each of us can shoot with whatever we have.
In PRS it's more about how you read the conditions and manage the positions.
In preparation for our first local long range precision .22 LR match this month, I found that many of the first time shooters had/have no idea what their dope is or should be. After looking for easy ways to provide them information, especially those that do not have ballistic apps or are new enough that JBM looks like a stock ticker, I then searched for published drop information for existing .22 LR loads. It turns out that they are surprisingly sparse if they can be found at all. So I spent some (probably way too much) time putting these five charts together for the shooters of this upcoming match. Then I thought that it might be useful for some of you here too. I know that there are at least some of you that know all this and have no need, but I'm betting that there are more that are like I was just a little while ago that have mostly no idea where to start.
So, take a look at this pdf I made of a simple chart that includes 6 common lower cost, low velocity loads sometimes used for these matches. Know that:
I may consider making some more of these charts for your consumption IF: you find them useful, I am provided with some specific load requests, I have the ability to pull the data from my ballistic app and if I feel like it.
- I only provided these in 10 yard increments instead of the 5 yard increments that I prefer because it's a lot of data entry typing and I'm no fan
- Info is for CCI Standard Velocity, Aguila Match Rifle, Eley Club, Federal Match, Fiocchi Match and Lapua Club. All 40g lead round nose
- Info is simply outputs from my ballistic application using my inputs and includes only drops data in inches, mrads and MOA. No wind holds
- Accuracy of the charts seems to be spot on for my rifle at my location (near sea level). Your results may vary a bit, but these are a good starting point at the very least.
- These are based on a 50 yard zero.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks
You don’t need to worry about that. .22s are so small the wind just blows around them.Did we cover wind? What should a direct 9oclock 5mph be moving a 50 yard zero round at 50, 100 and 200?
@Lesloan, it looks like I used 0.114 BC for the Lapua Club per JBM. JBM has different BCs for different Lapua loads. I see 0.114 and 0.132. I listed the BC that I used for each load in the chart when I separated and added more items to make two charts in post #76 here:
I probably mentioned before that other than the CCI SV, I have not verified any of the BCs or drops. Some on here have contributed their results in this thread too. Additionally, it has been discussed that different 40 grain .22 projectiles do indeed have different BCs and that depending upon where you look on a manufacture’s site, you may even get differing information in different places. The same applies to quoted velocities. I expect that, just like centerfire, the weight alone cannot correlate to a single BC, as bullet design and coatings have an impact.
In the name of being consistent, I used the JBM ballistic engine and listings for all of the charts. Whether that is right, wrong or green, I make no claim. Just that the numbers came from the same place.
Now, if you can confirm a BC of 0.172 for the Center X through your shooting results at some distances and post it here, I’ll try to take the time to go through this whole thread again and add that load and some others to yet another chart.
Could you please clarify #3? I can visualize muzzle blast doing something bad to the bullet, But I don't see it causing deflection/trajectory. To my way of thinking the deflection starts at the instant of ignition and continues the entire time that the bullet is in the bbl. Once the bullet is out of the bbl. virtually nothing you do matters.
To state it in another way, if you could hold the bbl. level, the only deflection that you would see is downward deflection regardless of bbl length. Certainly the velocity varies with bbl length.
Shawn
Thanks -- G1 it is.. Thanks for confirming.
Using AB?
Still need to figure out what to use for the vertical offset in high wind. Were I saw it the clearest, is on the paper stages for points. I was expecting to see only LR dispersion (maybe a little ^ v, but in the high wind last match, everyone had a huge vertical spread clearly printed on the mass paper target. I don't have years of active 22LR, much less many matches on them, so I am all ears on this one.
I use 0.106 on the Hornady website calculator, that has been good in my stick out to 520 yards as long as the temperature and elevation are right. Printout is a lot cheaper than buying a Kestrel......0.105 BC for CCI SV from the attachment on pg.2 still working well for everyone? Decent amount off from Strelok Pro (0.123)
CCI SV unfortunately isn't listed on my Kestrel Link Ballistics App. An AB Custom Curve would be stellar.