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Something weird with .308

G

GOING FOR 2000

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 7, 2009
167
1
77
CA. ,ElDorado county.
#1
Finally finished reworking my .308 load after REM replaced my 700p. At 100 and 200 yds. dead on. pratically one hole for 5 rds. When I move to 1000 Yds. bullet impacts 1.5 Mil. (53.98") right, elevation is dead on. (342 Rds. down the barrel)

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Zero wind</span></span>, flags at shooting point and at 1000 using tree tops at several points in between. All other external factors accounted for.

175 Gn. SMK, 2654 FPS +/- 5 FPS or less, Lapua case, CCI-200, 43 Gn. R-15, ogive seated 2.085 +/- 0, All components weighed and matched.

Know spindrift and corolis can not be that much at 1000. Could it be a harmonic bullet exit at 3 o'clock? This rifle is throwing a hook shot which totally messes up any intermediate ranging calculations.

Any help or opinions would be appreciated. As I am getting to the point of having the barrel ripped out and replaced.
 
#4
Re: Something weird with .308

What direction are you firing? North? East? ect. That is a weird situation, spin drift could be 1moa or so, but 5+? I haven't really played around with coriolis calculations, especially at 1K, but if the range is oriented with a South direction, coriolis 'could' play a factor, but that's a mighty big factor, however I don't see where it wouldn't be a factor.

The first things to jump out as problems have already been debunked, the scope, and the crown, could it be shooters drift?

Branden
 
#6
Re: Something weird with .308

Just because the reticle is level does not mean that the erector assembly that moves the reticle is also.

It is the erector screw assembly that has to be plumb/level for you to be able to crank up elev spot on.

IIRC Leupold allows up to +- 2* reticle to erector error as acceptable.

This has been discussed here several times recently.

10 to 1 that trying a proven scope will make the prob go away.
 
#7
Re: Something weird with .308

You need to shoot it at some more intermediate distances to see what it is doing in between (eg. 300, 600, 800, etc.) before you take any other corrective actions. Doing this will also help you analyze if the problem is shooter induced.
Was these results from just one range session at 1000 yards? Go out 2 or 3 times to see if you get any different variances in your POI.
 
#9
Re: Something weird with .308

At 1000 I have two 36" wide x 42" high--1/2" steel swinging targets center to center 53" (1.5 mils), hold center on the left and it hits center on the right one

Same scope, rail and rings (Horus Falcon with H-37 Reticle), that I had on the original 700P that Rem. replaced. It was shooting 10" or less at 1000 until the throat went bad. No knob turning after zero, shoot the mil. grid in the scope.

Been out 3 times at 1000 with this replacement weapon, lucky to have have my own range, though intermediate ranges are out of the question too many trees, 1000 yds. is high point to high point with a 3 Deg. fall. only have 100, 200, and 1000.

Never had this problem with the original 700P, only had to correct .2 Mil. windage (7.19") combo of corolis and spin drift when I moved fron 200 to 1000.

Timmney trigger, set at 1.5 Lbs, no over travel, no take up, ball of first joint on trigger. Just add very slight pressure to fire.

Also I spoke with Remington today, their top tech. is suppose to call me next week, but the person I talked to said it sounds like it could be a harmonic problem. If it is they may have to replace the barrel.

If it has to go back to rem. again at least it is still under warranty.
 
#10
Re: Something weird with .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1000 YDS. IS FUN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At 1000 I have two 36" wide x 42" high--1/2" steel swinging targets center to center 53" (1.5 mils), hold center on the left and it hits center on the right one

Same scope, rail and rings (Horus Falcon with H-37 Reticle), that I had on the original 700P that Rem. replaced. It was shooting 10" or less at 1000 until the throat went bad. No knob turning after zero, shoot the mil. grid in the scope.

Been out 3 times at 1000 with this replacement weapon, lucky to have have my own range, though intermediate ranges are out of the question too many trees, 1000 yds. is high point to high point with a 3 Deg. fall. only have 100, 200, and 1000.

Never had this problem with the original 700P, only had to correct .2 Mil. windage (7.19") combo of corolis and spin drift when I moved fron 200 to 1000.

Timmney trigger, set at 1.5 Lbs, no over travel, no take up, ball of first joint on trigger. Just add very slight pressure to fire.

Also I spoke with Remington today, their top tech. is suppose to call me next week, but the person I talked to said it sounds like it could be a harmonic problem. If it is they may have to replace the barrel.

If it has to go back to rem. again at least it is still under warranty.
</div></div>]

Your problem appears to be angular, the source of the problem having to do with recoil, sight alignment, and/or parallax. As earlier said, it could be that the sight may not be square. You can test this by shooting at 100 yards with your sight adjusted for 1000 yards. If impact is not plumb then square the reticle.

Remember too, at LR you may unmask problems which do not reveal themselves at SR.
 
#11
Re: Something weird with .308

If you can't check your POI at any intermediate distances then zero your windage for 1000 yards and back up and see how it affects your windage at 100 and 200 yards.
 
#13
Re: Something weird with .308

UPDATE:
Remington tech called me yesterday, told him about the problem of a perfect zero at 200 hitting 53 inches right at 1000, Was hoping that he would have some idea what might be causing the problem and how to solve it.

He told me that it was <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">only a 5 MOA </span></span>difference and that was good as gold, just to correct for it.

Then went on also to tell me that the 1:12 twist (Rem. OEM in a .308 Cal. 700P) was wrong twist for 175 Gn. SMK bullets.

I know 1:10 is prefered but my previous 700P with 1:12 was holding a 10 inch or less group at 1000 Yds (1 MOA).

Any comments?????????
 
#14
Re: Something weird with .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1000 YDS. IS FUN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">UPDATE:

Then went on also to tell me that the 1:12 twist (Rem. OEM in a .308 Cal. 700P) was wrong twist for 175 Gn. SMK bullets.

I know 1:10 is prefered but my previous 700P with 1:12 was holding a 10 inch or less group at 1000 Yds (1 MOA).

Any comments????????? </div></div>

Depends on the rifle. Ive heard of some on here that their 12 twist wont shoot a 175 for its life and others have zero problems with it. Rifles are like women. They are all unique and handle and act differently, especially in someone elses hands.
 
#15
Re: Something weird with .308

Let's look at this realistically. I think you can rule out barrel problems or twist rate problems as you say you can get a good zero, and I'm assuming a tight group, at 100 and 200 yards. If the rifle wouldn't stabilize the 175 SMK, you'd see it right away. Lets assume for a moment that you're running the 175 at 2700 fps +/- 50 fps; you should be good for 1100 to 1200 yards before sonic transition depending on temp, altitude, and the whims of the Shooting Gods. Your problem shows up at extreme ranges, and the only change you've made to your rifle is dialed in 38 moa of elevation, give or take a milliradian. You say your steels are 53" on center and when you aim center mass left target, you hit center mass right target, and I'll assume that is consistent, shot to shot, day to day. SO: as has been pointed out here by other shooters, the first thing I'd look at is radial alignment of the scope in the rings, or if the reticles are level when you hold the rifle in firing position.

First, get one of those little levels that fits on your scope. Set the flat belly of your stock on a flat level surface at home and install the scope level. Next, get a piece of cardboard 4 feet high and draw a 4 foot straight line on it and a cross hatch 6 inches from the bottom. Tack some thin wood strips on the side to keep it rigid. Now go to your range.

Using a plumb line or level, attach your tall target to a backer at 100 yards. The vertical line must be dead on vertical; forget about the horizonal line, it's just an aiming point.

Now, sitting at a good solid bench with your rifle level, sight the target. If your scope is radially misaligned, the vertical stadia of the retical will not match up with the verticle line on the target. Loosen the rings and looking through the scope, rotate the scope in the appropriate direction until the scope reticle matches the vertical line on the target perfectly; it will be a delicate procedure to keep it so when you retighten the ring screws. Reset the scope level.

Now, shooting time. Recheck/reset your 100 yard zero to the bottom aiming point on your target. Once you have your 100 yd zero, dial in 38 moa of elevation, and holding on the aiming point, shoot a three shot group. It should form up on the vertical line of the target, 38 in high from your aiming point. If it does not:

1) The scope does not track perfectly. This happens in some scopes with 1" tubes that get run to the extremes of elevation; the erector assembly can slip to one side or the other, generally to the left, throwing long range shots to the right.

2) You still don't have have the scope in perfect radial mount, recheck against the target, adjust as necessary.

3) You have a bad scope. Consider sending it in for service with a specific note regarding tracking at extremes of adjustment.

4) Be sure to use a canted base with at least 20 moa of elevation built in to keep your LR zeros as close to the stable optical center of the scope as possible.


good luck with my .02,

Wes
 
#16
Re: Something weird with .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1000 YDS. IS FUN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">UPDATE:
Remington tech called me yesterday, told him about the problem of a perfect zero at 200 hitting 53 inches right at 1000, Was hoping that he would have some idea what might be causing the problem and how to solve it.

He told me that it was <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">only a 5 MOA </span></span>difference and that was good as gold, just to correct for it.



Any comments????????? </div></div>

Yes, but none I'd repeat here
whistle.gif
 
#17
Re: Something weird with .308

I think the simple answer is that there is a 5 mile per hour breeze somewhere between the tops of those two hills and above those trees you mentioned. 5mph is not much and may not even be noticed in clean air. If the wind direction is predominantly from one place and channeled by the terrain features it will be repeatable.

Just a thunk.

Cheers,

Doc
 
#18
Re: Something weird with .308

Yeah, Doc, I think you might be onto something there. He just enlightened me to the obvious, he's shooting a Horus reticle and doesn't have to dial in elevation, so that tosses out tracking on the scope. He also said the scope was properly installed and plumb leveled, so that's not it. The problem with the wind theory that bothers me is that it sounds like he shoots at this range often, has multiple range flags in the treetops, and this condition is something new and exciting. I'm out of easy answers here, just grasping at wind drift or a bum scope.

Wes

ADD: Barrel Harmonics? Could be, and the easiest way to test it is to wrap some wheel weights around the barrel with duct tape just behind the muzzle and see if it makes any difference.
 
#19
Re: Something weird with .308

right sorry to tread on the toes of all the guys that have suggested to level your reticle or plumb the vertical line but there is a big big problem with doing that if you are dialling for your drop

the problem is that if you plumb your ret using either a plumb line against the vertical line or one of those gizmoes that have got lines on that fit on you action and round the eye bell and you are dialling is that most manufacturer's have a three degree allowance on a retical being plumb

three degrees is a lot at a thousand yards and means that if you have any amount of runout in reticle to turret then as you dial up you will also be dialing off

if you are dialling then you should set the scope up as follows

1) clamp scope into rings just lose enough so you can still turn the scope

2) losen the turret grub screwss so that you can be sure the turret sits flat

3) place a spirit level on the action top (flat area of action or flat area of the base) and another level on top of the elevation turret

4) carefully tighten rings evenly checking that the scopes level on the turret remains true to the actions level

5) now even if your reticle was so bad that it resembled an x instead of a + it wouldnt matter as your scope would still dial true


hope that helps
 
#20
Re: Something weird with .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bagpuss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">right sorry to tread on the toes of all the guys that have suggested to level your reticle or plumb the vertical line but there is a big big problem with doing that if you are dialling for your drop

the problem is that if you plumb your ret using either a plumb line against the vertical line or one of those gizmoes that have got lines on that fit on you action and round the eye bell and you are dialling is that most manufacturer's have a three degree allowance on a retical being plumb

three degrees is a lot at a thousand yards and means that if you have any amount of runout in reticle to turret then as you dial up you will also be dialing off

if you are dialling then you should set the scope up as follows

1) clamp scope into rings just lose enough so you can still turn the scope

2) losen the turret grub screwss so that you can be sure the turret sits flat

3) place a spirit level on the action top (flat area of action or flat area of the base) and another level on top of the elevation turret

4) carefully tighten rings evenly checking that the scopes level on the turret remains true to the actions level

5) now even if your reticle was so bad that it resembled an x instead of a + it wouldnt matter as your scope would still dial true


hope that helps </div></div>

[threadjack
Bag, you make a good point, but unless you dial in your elevation and confirm it by getting a hit on the vertical line, it's still all guesswork. You still have to confirm it by shooting and correct from there.

And, as I finally came to realize, this poor guy is using a Horus reticle - no dialing needed.

[/threadjack]

Right now I'm working on the assumption the barrel is contacting the stock.
 
#21
Re: Something weird with .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1000 YDS. IS FUN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Finally finished reworking my .308 load <span style="font-weight: bold">after REM replaced my 700p.</span> </div></div>

Whoa. More info needed here. Why did Rem "replace" the rifle? Was it with a "new" rifle? Or did they rework your old one?
 
#22
Re: Something weird with .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1ZNUF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bagpuss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">right sorry to tread on the toes of all the guys that have suggested to level your reticle or plumb the vertical line but there is a big big problem with doing that if you are dialling for your drop

the problem is that if you plumb your ret using either a plumb line against the vertical line or one of those gizmoes that have got lines on that fit on you action and round the eye bell and you are dialling is that most manufacturer's have a three degree allowance on a retical being plumb

three degrees is a lot at a thousand yards and means that if you have any amount of runout in reticle to turret then as you dial up you will also be dialing off

if you are dialling then you should set the scope up as follows

1) clamp scope into rings just lose enough so you can still turn the scope

2) losen the turret grub screwss so that you can be sure the turret sits flat

3) place a spirit level on the action top (flat area of action or flat area of the base) and another level on top of the elevation turret

4) carefully tighten rings evenly checking that the scopes level on the turret remains true to the actions level

5) now even if your reticle was so bad that it resembled an x instead of a + it wouldnt matter as your scope would still dial true


hope that helps </div></div>

[threadjack
Bag, you make a good point, but unless you dial in your elevation and confirm it by getting a hit on the vertical line, it's still all guesswork. You still have to confirm it by shooting and correct from there.

And, as I finally came to realize, this poor guy is using a Horus reticle - no dialing needed.

[/threadjack]

Right now I'm working on the assumption the barrel is contacting the stock.
</div></div>



aahh fair point, didnt know he was using hold over, should have read all the posts

the plumb the ret and dial is a mistake is a problem I often see and they cant understand why it dials off to one side
shocked.gif
smile.gif
 
#25
Re: Something weird with .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bagpuss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


the plumb the ret and dial is a mistake is a problem I often see and they cant understand why it dials off to one side
shocked.gif
smile.gif
</div></div>

[threadjack] There's a spring plunger on the left side of the erector barrel, 7 or 9 oclock, depending on the manufacture. This plunger holds the erector body against the elevation and windage adjusters. As you run the elevaton to the extreme top, the erector mechanisms can start to run off to one side,usually the right, as the plungers lose their effectiveness on the curved bottom of the erector barrel. A similar condition exists if the windage gets run to one extreme or the other due to scope base misalignment with the bore. Burris address this with a locking screw, and Premier reticles will alter scopes with an extra spring plunger to counter this problem. The best solution is to have enough elevation in your base to account for the range of the target. [/threadjack]
 
#26
Re: Something weird with .308



<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Zero wind</span></span>, flags at shooting point and at 1000 using tree tops at several points in between. All other external factors accounted for.

Zero conditions my ass.............. Quit wasting Remingtons time.
 
#28
Re: Something weird with .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: criver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Zero wind</span></span>, flags at shooting point and at 1000 using tree tops at several points in between. All other external factors accounted for.

Zero conditions my ass.............. <span style="font-weight: bold">Quit wasting Remingtons time</span>.



</div></div>

Yeah.

They're pretty good at wasting it on their own.

"5moa is not a lot...just dial in and allow for it".

Please.

Remington makes price point consumer firearms for the average Joe who will engage targets at an average distance of 87 yards, and fire less than one box of ammunition per year. Their accpetable limits of performance are very generous, but not what any serious shooter would accept. Apart from the Custom Shop, there aren't many Remington employees who know much about LR/ER shooting, or why their factory rifles may not be up to the job. Crooked/bent barrels, sloppy chambering (which I can not understand in today's CNC world), base screws that wander across the top of the action like a set of GPS waypoints, the list goes on. Yes, occasionally, you get a really good one. The best thing that can be said about a factory Remington rifle is that is has a good action that can serve as the basis for a really great custom rifle.

Wasting their time, indeed.

And, while you're right about zero conditions, I think we might be a little presumptuous to tell a guy he missed a full value 5mph crosswind on his home range.

Just my $.02.
 
#29
Re: Something weird with .308

All,

Since we start with the fact that the bullet always goes in the direction the barrel is pointed, and, since all firing takes place at the gun, shot call/strike analysis may be the most effective method of troubleshooting the source of error-not hitting where aimed.

Now, since the error here is a consistent placement of shots, all off call of right-in-there, it would appear a simple sight adjustment for a no wind condition at X distance would resolve the problem.

 
#30
Re: Something weird with .308

I have talked with several major builders and they have all come to the same conclusion that the problem is the barrel, it will never achieve what I am looking for, even though it will shoot a good group at 200 and should be fair to 500. Which is within Remington spec's so they will not be able to offer any help.

My only option, if I want a 1000 yard rifle, the barrel will have to be replaced.

Thanks for all your help and ideas.
 
#31
Re: Something weird with .308


Since bullets are indeed getting to 1000 yards nose-on, and, since a group is being produced at a particular place on the target, it would appear the problem is not with the gun or ammunition but rather some misunderstanding about sight adjustment or wind. Calling shots would easily bring you to recognize the source of error. BTW, start with an understanding that shots on call but not where desired means the sights are likely adjusted/zeroed.
 
#32
Re: Something weird with .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1000 YDS. IS FUN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">UPDATE:
Remington tech called me yesterday, told him about the problem of a perfect zero at 200 hitting 53 inches right at 1000, Was hoping that he would have some idea what might be causing the problem and how to solve it.

He told me that it was <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">only a 5 MOA </span></span>difference and that was good as gold, just to correct for it.

Then went on also to tell me that the 1:12 twist (Rem. OEM in a .308 Cal. 700P) was wrong twist for 175 Gn. SMK bullets.

I know 1:10 is prefered but my previous 700P with 1:12 was holding a 10 inch or less group at 1000 Yds (1 MOA).

Any comments????????? </div></div>

horse shit! the usmc has been shooting m118lr 175gr bullets down a 1/12 tube for a while and they don't seem to have any problems. i think what you may have going on is a myriad of issues like right hand twist spin drift which is a guarantee with a r/h twist barrel, possible parallax issue along with possible wind you do not think is there. there is wind....i guarandamntee it. spend time truly setting your parallax @1k. i usually factor in 1moa left for a no wind condition to correct for the drift at distances beyond 800 with a .308
 
#33
Re: Something weird with .308

If the stick is shooting "one hole" at 100 & 200..... He puts on his 1000 yard elevation and holy shit its five minutes right? Sends it back to Remington for a new barrel..........ha ha. New barrel shoots five minutes right. Look at your optics.
 
#34
Re: Something weird with .308

Kinda sounds like the scope and bore are on different lateral planes. Two lines that are adjusted to converge at 100 yards, then get further and further apart as distance increases.


If that is the case, you might want to zero windage at 600 yards or so, instead of 100.
 
#36
Re: Something weird with .308

Went out the other day and tried again. Discovered something I have never seen before on a recovered bullet.

Two bullets that I recovered from the backstop looked strange, between every land engravement there is a more highly polished line that is almost as wide as a land and equally spaced making it look like a 12 land and groove barrel, but it is flush with the groove depth wise.

Barrel was totally clean no copper or powder fouling when I started and these were the first two shots.

Is this a normal thing?????
 
#37
Re: Something weird with .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kinda sounds like the scope and bore are on different lateral planes. Two lines that are adjusted to converge at 100 yards, then get further and further apart as distance increases.


If that is the case, you might want to zero windage at 600 yards or so, instead of 100.</div></div>

Yes, a 500 yard zero might be better, than would put you at 3 mils high at 100.
 
#38
Re: Something weird with .308

what about the bullets? maybe a bad batch by some chance were the jacket is thicker on one side or another and then throwing of the center of gravity very very minimaly on the bullet which might only show up at more extreme ranges, hornady had some info like this with diagrams on one of thier very old reloading manuals. just a thought
 
#39
Re: Something weird with .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1000 YDS. IS FUN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Went out the other day and tried again. Discovered something I have never seen before on a recovered bullet.

Two bullets that I recovered from the backstop looked strange, between every land engravement there is a more highly polished line that is almost as wide as a land and equally spaced making it look like a 12 land and groove barrel, but it is flush with the groove depth wise.

Barrel was totally clean no copper or powder fouling when I started and these were the first two shots.

Is this a normal thing?????

</div></div>

Can you post a picture of the spent bullets?
Since you're reloading I assume you check the bullet OD.
Can you measure the groove diameter of the barrel?
A caliper should be fine. Depends on how many grooves there are. Even numbers are easy. Odd numbers are tougher.


John


tired.gif
 
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