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I hear people from time to time say something like 'well seal team 6 uses....and they don't....'
The problem with that is what they are doing vs what we are doing are different things. Same thing with SWAT teams or whatever.
As a civilian we have to take into account that generally speaking we don't operate in teams. And even more than that we are rarely tasked with going out and getting some asshole in a proactive way like we are making an arrest or raiding a terrorist hideout.
If someone is in your yard at 2am it's pretty important to determine if it's a raccoon or just the neighborhood kids toilet papering your house because you have a 16 year old at home.
The parameters of operation are completely different than a military operation. Some of the tools cross over but in general we are in totally different lines of work.
Well good thing I was never pretty enough to be in seal team 6.
Very true and a very good point which is why I ended up putting a light on mine. PID is rather important. At first, I was like I'm not putting shit on my firearms (lights-wise) until I kinda got that through my head. My original mentality was if I was a bad guy and I break into your house. If I see a flashlight I'd put a wall of bullets into that light usually the head is right behind a weapon light. The more I watched things and learned the more I found out the importance of good light to identify bumps in the night.
Agreed again the last thing I would ever want to do is shoot a poor defenseless raccoon. He's probably just hungry lol jk. I do highly agree with you though. Shit I was mad when a cop told me I can't boobie trap my porch to prevent people from stealing my packages.
One thing I will suggest to the OP if training with lights get a good pressure switch. Also be careful to not blind yourself.
This to me has been an enjoyable thread.
I'm an FFL/SOT and have been doing projects much like this, both for others and for personal use, for over 20 years. Defining the purpose, or mission, of each build is the very first question that has to be answered before you can proceed further.
I've got a slightly different method of defining mission capabilities for my blasters:
0 - 50 yards and concealable
0 - 100 yards
0 - 400 yard
0 - 800 yards
0 - 1000 yards and beyond
"Truck Gun" for every vehicle
The oldest existing firearm in my personal armory covering the above list is just six years old. Even it has had two different optics, two different suppressors (about to get a third), and two different IR illuminators, as the choices out there with which we have to work improve over time. All the rest of the guns have been rebuilt, re-barreled, repainted, replaced, etc.
I'm an FFL/SOT and have been doing projects much like this, both for others and for personal use, for over 20 years. Defining the purpose, or mission, of each build is the very first question that has to be answered before you can proceed further.
I've got a slightly different method of defining mission capabilities for my blasters:
0 - 50 yards and concealable
0 - 100 yards
0 - 400 yard
0 - 800 yards
0 - 1000 yards and beyond
"Truck Gun" for every vehicle
The oldest existing firearm in my personal armory covering the above list is just six years old. Even it has had two different optics, two different suppressors (about to get a third), and two different IR illuminators, as the choices out there with which we have to work improve over time. All the rest of the guns have been rebuilt, re-barreled, repainted, replaced, etc.
Not proceeding in any particular order, here are my 0 - 800 rigs.
The first is a 16" Recce format with Proof Research CF barrel. The bare rifle weight is quite light in weight, just over six pounds, and with MK 262 Mod 1 I'm getting 2695 fps and consistent sub-MOA performance. That's still over 1300 fps at 800 yards at my density altitude of 5000'. So, yeah, 800 yards may be running up against reality.
This rifle is light, easy to carry and deploy rapidly, and has proven to be 100% reliable. I've enjoyed it tremendously and consider it a favorite.
My newer rifle in this category, surprisingly, tops this performance rather easily. It's a 14.5" 6mmARC SBR with a Proof CF barrel. It too is just over six pounds in bare form, provides sub-MOA performance, and is 100% reliable with the right magazines. With Hornady 108 ELD-M, it has a muzzle velocity of 2553 fps, but at 800 yards, it's still doing over 1550 fps! Note the two-tone FDE effect. The lower has been host to multiple uppers in the past. This is its best yet.
The first is a 16" Recce format with Proof Research CF barrel. The bare rifle weight is quite light in weight, just over six pounds, and with MK 262 Mod 1 I'm getting 2695 fps and consistent sub-MOA performance. That's still over 1300 fps at 800 yards at my density altitude of 5000'. So, yeah, 800 yards may be running up against reality.
This rifle is light, easy to carry and deploy rapidly, and has proven to be 100% reliable. I've enjoyed it tremendously and consider it a favorite.
My newer rifle in this category, surprisingly, tops this performance rather easily. It's a 14.5" 6mmARC SBR with a Proof CF barrel. It too is just over six pounds in bare form, provides sub-MOA performance, and is 100% reliable with the right magazines. With Hornady 108 ELD-M, it has a muzzle velocity of 2553 fps, but at 800 yards, it's still doing over 1550 fps! Note the two-tone FDE effect. The lower has been host to multiple uppers in the past. This is its best yet.
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My 100 yard gun is what I'd call the "house gun" in .300 Blackout. It's really like having two rifles in one, and with the dual dot reticle in the Eotech, I've stumbled on a way to really make it work both supers and subs. With the EoTech circle/2-dot reticle designed for the M4, the top dot is POA/POI at 50 yards with supers; the bottom dot is POA/POI at 50 yards with subs.
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The 0 - 1000 yard guns come in two flavors.
First, there's the 6.75 LB 18" Proof CF barrel 6mm ARC. With Hornady 108 ELD-M, it has an amazing muzzle velocity of 2686 fps, along with an even more amazing remaining velocity of over 1500 fps at 1000 yards. (Yes, my high density altitude does help.) With the right mags, the gun runs 100% and is the best rifle in the lot for groups at 100 yards.
This is the type of long range rifle and ammo you'd want if you had to hump your kit everywhere.
If you can drive your Jeep right up to the firing point, this is my newest build - a 6.5 Creedmoor with a Proof 20" SS barrel. At just under 10 LB for the bare rifle, it is no lightweight, but it's about three pounds less than most comparable precision bolt guns. It shoots easily sub-MOA with the first three factory loads I've tried in it, but I don't know if I've found the best choice for it just yet. I'm wanting half-MOA, and my best is 0.65. For some strange reason, this big block gasser is not at all finicky like others of its ilk, in that it seems easy to shoot like a small block blaster. Hold it hard, hold it light, it doesn't care. Zero malfunctions in the first 300 rounds.
First, there's the 6.75 LB 18" Proof CF barrel 6mm ARC. With Hornady 108 ELD-M, it has an amazing muzzle velocity of 2686 fps, along with an even more amazing remaining velocity of over 1500 fps at 1000 yards. (Yes, my high density altitude does help.) With the right mags, the gun runs 100% and is the best rifle in the lot for groups at 100 yards.
This is the type of long range rifle and ammo you'd want if you had to hump your kit everywhere.
If you can drive your Jeep right up to the firing point, this is my newest build - a 6.5 Creedmoor with a Proof 20" SS barrel. At just under 10 LB for the bare rifle, it is no lightweight, but it's about three pounds less than most comparable precision bolt guns. It shoots easily sub-MOA with the first three factory loads I've tried in it, but I don't know if I've found the best choice for it just yet. I'm wanting half-MOA, and my best is 0.65. For some strange reason, this big block gasser is not at all finicky like others of its ilk, in that it seems easy to shoot like a small block blaster. Hold it hard, hold it light, it doesn't care. Zero malfunctions in the first 300 rounds.
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In the 0 - 400 yard category, I have an amazing 11.3" 5.56 with a Bartlein barrel (+1 gas system) by Craddock Precision. Weighs just over six pounds but feels lighter because it's so short. I've really insulted it by inferring that it's just a 400 yard gun. With my ASYM 77 SMK, it's doing 2527 at the muzzle and is still traveling at over 1700 fps at 400 yards. You can get some surprising groups with just an 8X optic with this thing. My local Cerakote pro, Ronin Arms, painted it to exactly match my Jeep.
I’ve spent alot of time working with ARs, training and running some local matches with me gear. I’ve shot a lot of friends gear and kind came up with a good setup for myself as follows (disclaimer I have a bunch more ARs setup). This is just my thoughts. I would use Surefire brakes or FHs on everything with a RC2.
Rifle 1: 556 14.5" General Purpose / Do-it-all
Uses: Home Defense, Target shooting, Survival/Camping
Optic: Eotech EXPS 3-2 with magnifier
Frame/Handguard/Receiver: Lower of your choice, Gissele MK16 hg upper from SD (blem matching set with tabs built into upper)
Featured Parts: 14.5” Criterian CORE, Larue trigger, BCG if your choice, fixed GB, stock of your choice.
Rifle 2: 556 18" or 16” Scoped Carbine Rifle
Uses: Target Shooting, Survival/Camping
Optic: mark 5 3-18 or XTR3I 3-18x offset red dot
Frame/Handguard/Receiver: lower of your choice, handguard Aero/handguard m4e1 that attaches to reciever
Featured Parts: Triggertech Trigger, BCG and lpk of your choice, Magpul UBR, craddok bartlien 16” or 18” gun.
Rifle 3: 6arc 18” or 20” Scoped Rifle
Uses: Target Shooting, Survival/Camping
Optic: mark 5 5-25 or XTR3I pro
Frame/Handguard/Receiver: lower of your choice, handguard Aero/handguard m4e1 that attaches to reciever
Featured Parts: Triggertech Trigger, BCG and lpk of your choice, Magpul PRS, craddok bartlien 18” or 20” gun.
Rifle 1: 556 14.5" General Purpose / Do-it-all
Uses: Home Defense, Target shooting, Survival/Camping
Optic: Eotech EXPS 3-2 with magnifier
Frame/Handguard/Receiver: Lower of your choice, Gissele MK16 hg upper from SD (blem matching set with tabs built into upper)
Featured Parts: 14.5” Criterian CORE, Larue trigger, BCG if your choice, fixed GB, stock of your choice.
Rifle 2: 556 18" or 16” Scoped Carbine Rifle
Uses: Target Shooting, Survival/Camping
Optic: mark 5 3-18 or XTR3I 3-18x offset red dot
Frame/Handguard/Receiver: lower of your choice, handguard Aero/handguard m4e1 that attaches to reciever
Featured Parts: Triggertech Trigger, BCG and lpk of your choice, Magpul UBR, craddok bartlien 16” or 18” gun.
Rifle 3: 6arc 18” or 20” Scoped Rifle
Uses: Target Shooting, Survival/Camping
Optic: mark 5 5-25 or XTR3I pro
Frame/Handguard/Receiver: lower of your choice, handguard Aero/handguard m4e1 that attaches to reciever
Featured Parts: Triggertech Trigger, BCG and lpk of your choice, Magpul PRS, craddok bartlien 18” or 20” gun.
MSTN,
As usual, beautiful stuff that's highly functional..................and that's why I suggested early on in this thread that he just send you an order for 3 or 4 nice guns & be done with it, since money seems to be no object for the OP.
That upper / lower receiver set looks eerily like what I've used from SanTan.................
.MM
That AR-10 6.5 Creedmoor is absolutely gorgeous, I'd love to build mine out like that. Especially that handguard with the slant cuts and the cerekote. I wonder how much weight you could save with the CF barrel over the SS one. 10 lbs is not bad, I think when I build out my LMT, it's going to weigh more. The 6mm ARC build is really pretty too, these are some really good-looking rifles!
Making it run with both supers and subs is awesome. I love the length of the rifle. It looks really good in this color. I've never heard of MSTN lower receivers, I can't get them now but they look really good.
My guns re-arranged like your criteria would be:
0-50
Rifle #4 12" 556 SBR BCM
300 Blackout Upper
0-400
Rifle #1 16" 556 Frankenstien build
Rifle #3 16" 556 Frankenstien build
0-800
Rifle#2 18" 556 SPR Noveske
AR-10 #1 16" 308 Frankenstien build
AR-10 #2 16" 308 LMT
0-1000+
Rifle #5 18" 6mm arc Frankenstein build
AR-10 #3 6.5 Creedmoor Frankenstein build
Extra rifles/Truck guns:
Rifle #6 16" Larue Upper 556
Rifle #7 16" Geissele Upper 556
The first two rifles I'm going to build out are my SBR and my Rifle #1.
I love your setups. For my compensators, I'm still deciding which ones will work best with my suppressor li
The only suppressor not on this list that I want to get is the TBAC Ultra 9.
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Responses to multiple posts:
These aren't really my receivers, in that I do not manufacture them - They're 100% SanTan Tactical with no logo. They're just the best I've been able to find! The ATF requires all FFL manufacturers (And I am one of those) mark their firearms with "NAME - CITY - STATE". That's why the "MSTN PAYSON AZ" is laser engraved on the lower receiver.
Switching from a Proof SS barrel to a Proof carbon fiber barrel in the 6.5 CM will save weight:
20" 12 ounces
22" 14 ounces
24" 15 ounces
Given that the weight saved is in the barrel, the center of gravity of the rifle moves rearward on the rifle. The effect in the way the weapon handles is far greater than the weight savings would infer.
But, when you get up to a certain weight in rifles, odds are you're going to shoot them primarily from a supported position. Then, that extra mass in the gun begins to work for you.
Competition shooters shoot heavy guns. Warfighters want lighter guns.
Surefire makes rock solid suppressors to military specifications. Ten years ago, they were state of the art, and they're certainly still good by any objective measure. But, it's almost 2023, and, today, they're on the heavy side, made for wartime use under the absolute most challenging conditions.
Ten years ago, extremely skilled craftsmen were welding suppressors together. Then came robots that could do an even better job. Next were six-figure cost 3-D printers diverted from making rocket nozzle exhausts, producing intricate designs that would make a nautilus shell jealous.
Today's suppressors are lighter, quieter, and have far less back pressure (more important to long term health than the functioning of the gas gun) than just a few years ago. I'm fortunate to know people far smarter than me to tell me which way to go here.
These aren't really my receivers, in that I do not manufacture them - They're 100% SanTan Tactical with no logo. They're just the best I've been able to find! The ATF requires all FFL manufacturers (And I am one of those) mark their firearms with "NAME - CITY - STATE". That's why the "MSTN PAYSON AZ" is laser engraved on the lower receiver.
Switching from a Proof SS barrel to a Proof carbon fiber barrel in the 6.5 CM will save weight:
20" 12 ounces
22" 14 ounces
24" 15 ounces
Given that the weight saved is in the barrel, the center of gravity of the rifle moves rearward on the rifle. The effect in the way the weapon handles is far greater than the weight savings would infer.
But, when you get up to a certain weight in rifles, odds are you're going to shoot them primarily from a supported position. Then, that extra mass in the gun begins to work for you.
Competition shooters shoot heavy guns. Warfighters want lighter guns.
Surefire makes rock solid suppressors to military specifications. Ten years ago, they were state of the art, and they're certainly still good by any objective measure. But, it's almost 2023, and, today, they're on the heavy side, made for wartime use under the absolute most challenging conditions.
Ten years ago, extremely skilled craftsmen were welding suppressors together. Then came robots that could do an even better job. Next were six-figure cost 3-D printers diverted from making rocket nozzle exhausts, producing intricate designs that would make a nautilus shell jealous.
Today's suppressors are lighter, quieter, and have far less back pressure (more important to long term health than the functioning of the gas gun) than just a few years ago. I'm fortunate to know people far smarter than me to tell me which way to go here.
I think for me it's going to be the reverse haha. My do-it-all AR-10 will be heavy, while my other two AR-10s will be as light as I can get them, I want to be able to carry them a decent distance in the backcountry for hunting but I don't know if my expectations are realistic. Competition is a category I have not looked into, so maybe I'll make my third AR-10 a heavy competition gun to try that sport out and give it a SS barrel. In 6-8 years, I want to be shooting in these types of competitions:
I will look into Surefire then and maybe that'll be one of my 556 suppressors instead of two YHM cans. I think the surefire uses a dedicated compensator, which is fine, but I'll have to designate one or two of my ARs to be Surefire suppressible.
Nice! Looks incredible. I was going to build mine with an Aero lower, and a Xanthos Lite Upper + Rail. Plus the Proof CF barrel. Those builds are for 2024.
Beautiful optic!
This one I built as an "experiment" in 2016. It has worked out surprisingly well, even better than hoped.
The Kahles K16i is a pretty slick piece of glass. Short, super light, super bright, with a really big eye box. At 1X, it's almost an Aimpoint. 6X is I think a good match with a lightweight .308, too. If you can't hit it at 6X, you're comfortably far enough away to call in an air strike.
Kahles, like other top shelf optics manufacturers (cough - Nightforce), quietly improves the quality of every aspect of their designs over time, and this 2016 relic just plain isn't as good as their 2022 version.
The Kahles K16i is a pretty slick piece of glass. Short, super light, super bright, with a really big eye box. At 1X, it's almost an Aimpoint. 6X is I think a good match with a lightweight .308, too. If you can't hit it at 6X, you're comfortably far enough away to call in an air strike.
Kahles, like other top shelf optics manufacturers (cough - Nightforce), quietly improves the quality of every aspect of their designs over time, and this 2016 relic just plain isn't as good as their 2022 version.
0. skip the 6mm AR and get a bolt gun instead- Accuracy International, Lone Peak, Impact Precision... you'll want .308 because that seems like what you'd want, but wouldn't hurt to start with a .223 barrel & bolt face and go up to .308 at a later time
1. SBR lower used with a 16" upper mid-length until you get your tax stamp
2. same SBR lower for your 12.5" (so only 2 5.56 rifles- one for shooting fast)
a. Aimpoint red dots are awesome, H & T series rock; I like the Larue mount because I want to be able to drop it quick if it fails
b. back up irons are good; plastic Magpuls are awesome IME
3. Reece/precision rifle (don't shoot fast or you lose the accuracy of your barrel) with top notch barrel 20" is good too
a. Geissle SSA-E trigger & Radian Raptor charging handle
4. see "0" again. get a bolt gun and see how you like it before building your ARs
1. SBR lower used with a 16" upper mid-length until you get your tax stamp
2. same SBR lower for your 12.5" (so only 2 5.56 rifles- one for shooting fast)
a. Aimpoint red dots are awesome, H & T series rock; I like the Larue mount because I want to be able to drop it quick if it fails
b. back up irons are good; plastic Magpuls are awesome IME
3. Reece/precision rifle (don't shoot fast or you lose the accuracy of your barrel) with top notch barrel 20" is good too
a. Geissle SSA-E trigger & Radian Raptor charging handle
4. see "0" again. get a bolt gun and see how you like it before building your ARs
I'm planning on doing 3 bolt guns in 2024. A 556, a 308, and a 6.5 Creedmoor. I have 3 American Rifle Company Archimedes bolt action receivers to do this.
I'm still going to build out the ARs, I hope to have 7 AR-15s when I'm all done with this in 2025.
I'm going to SBR at least two of my lowers, most likely my Aero lowers just in case something happens to them and laws change and they come for my guns. Don't want to lose my Radian lowers or my Noveske.
I haven't even looked into backup irons or optics in general, I was hoping to have one of my SBR with a red dot and magnifier, and the other SBR with just a red dot, my general purpose do-it-all rifle with an ACOG and top-mounted RMR, and my Recce/SPR rifle with an LPVO and side-mounted RMR. That's just how things work out in my head but I'll definitely have to do a ton of research on optics and figure out the best configuration for each rifle.
If I have 7 AR-15s altogether, then I don't mind one of them being 6mm arc just to try something new. I only did 4 rifle setups for this thread because I was only planning on building out four at first in 2023, with the other three being built in 2024 and 2025 along with my AR-10s.
A really big eye box is big for me, that's the kind of scope I want. Also lightweight and being daylight bright. I was looking into the Khales K18i after I saw a review of it by Honest Outlaw on youtube. It really seems like a do-it-all optic. A hefty price at $2,500 but it might be worth it. The Khales look really good on your rifle. Again, I haven't even gotten into planning out optics fully and have a ton of research to do but I think I have a good start. One of my bolt-actions will feature a Nightforce, but I'll buy a cheap optic first and learn to shoot before dropping a large amount of money on nice glass.
Why not start with one semi, one bolt...
And as you figure out what you prefer, modify your purchases. Nothing stopping you from buying new ones every week. Saves some time and effort in the long run to not backtrack if decide a different path is better having walked down it a ways.
ie.
SBRs are nice and light, but a can will make it a better experience when lighting it up
And as you figure out what you prefer, modify your purchases. Nothing stopping you from buying new ones every week. Saves some time and effort in the long run to not backtrack if decide a different path is better having walked down it a ways.
ie.
SBRs are nice and light, but a can will make it a better experience when lighting it up
I have a chance to buy a Santan Upper and Lower on the hard lands of MA, very rare and hard to find does around here, so you guy recommend Santal for a SPR style rifle?
Thank you
Thank you
SanTan is is top-shelf IMO & one of the very best. It will make a nice base for any SPR project.
MM
MM
Thank you, definitely get it. looks great and theft between upper and lower is amazing on this set I saw for sale.
MS, can you give more specs on the 1000 yard build, Im looking to build something like that for my Santan, I want a 6mmArc and a .223 uppers on the sea e spices so I can trainee .Thank you the rifles looks amazing.
1000 yard gun:
SanTan STT-15L upper
Proof 18" CF barrel with feed ramps contoured & polished
SLR adjustable gas block w/ set screws torqued to 25 IN-LB
Geissele MK14 15" rail w/ barrel nut torqued to 50 FT-LB
Geissele Super Charging Handle
JP Full Mass 6.5 G Bolt Carrier Group
KG-2 barrel prep
SanTan STT-15L upper
Proof 18" CF barrel with feed ramps contoured & polished
SLR adjustable gas block w/ set screws torqued to 25 IN-LB
Geissele MK14 15" rail w/ barrel nut torqued to 50 FT-LB
Geissele Super Charging Handle
JP Full Mass 6.5 G Bolt Carrier Group
KG-2 barrel prep
If you can afford good stuff, and you want good glass, don't waste a penny on cheap anything.
Sounds good, that is the line I wanna go for sure. wanna do a nice build does Santan are very hard to come by my state so wanna do a nice build for sure.
Best advice ever, & not just about glass.................................just sayin'.
I don't know of anyone ever buying good stuff & regretting it.
MM
The issue is once you have nice stuff you only want nice stuff.
If you shoot garbage, even premium garbage, you got nowhere to go but upThe issue is once you have nice stuff you only want nice stuff.
You could just do a 12.5 and 18 and cover 100% of what you're trying to achieve with more money for ammo, training, and other accessories
I didnt read the whole thread.
I didnt read the whole thread.
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A couple things I would bring to the OP's attention.
1. Look at barrel life for a stainless barrel vs barrel life from a quality chrome lined barrel (Criterion). You will need to shoot ALOT to become truly adept with these systems. I go weekly and burn through 200-300 rounds in a dynamic shooting meet.
2. Given your concerns think seriously about getting out and shooting ALOT. Ive got several pretty high end builds. For me a suppressor is almost essential. That has me switching from my Vltor Mur upper, ADM UIC, Geissele MK4 handgaurd, and Criterion barrel to a PWS. I never would've known about this had I not started going with my buddy weekly.
3. Given your concerns and aspirations you need to learn to load your own ammo. I was never able to reach 1 moa until I loaded my own. Im not a sharpshooter like some of these guys, but I was on the SWAT team when I worked in LE before I went to Med School.
Regarding weapons.... be prudent and recognize what you dont know. Stockpiling parts is a great idea IMO. Give it time before you build. Personally if I could go back I'd start with a 14.5" with Criterion barrel, and quality upper and lower with Vltor A5 buffer system and Geissele trigger. I prefer ambi lowers. That setup with do 95% of what the others will do.
After all the ARs I built and trained with, my "go-to" is a 13" SCAR 17. Im not as fast with it and its heavier. Im a big muscular guy so Im not all that fast as it is. Ive got a QD Atlas bipod on my gear and a 1-6 Trijicon on it. I can hit just about anything within 600 yards with my hand loads.
For people that can afford the investment I feel like 300blk out is superior in a SBR. Shooting 110grain vmax supers out of my 8" barrel is so much quieter and far more energy than 77 grain from an 11-12" 556. I have my 11.5" barrel squirrelled away somewhere although I doubt I'd ever reach for it. Between those 3 I've got some great options. If I'm going for 1000 then I bring out the 50 cal. Being as my target is 1000+ yards away its no rush. And no concerns about terminal energy.
When I REALLY got into this I had plenty to spend on the best of the best. I had quite a bit of familiarity with firearms before going to the shoot with my buddy. He's a penny pincher and I built him an Aero build with a Faxon gunner barrel and went as... cost effective as I could. I think I even bought the barrel for him. Despite having my perfectly tuned Vltor, Criterion, Geissele, and ADM build he embarrassed me. He was probably 25% faster and just as accurate. Remember that I did those drills as a SWAT member. Build capable weapons, but they will only be as capable as you are. Ammo and training time are what makes a great shooter (in all respects). Even with tons of money to burn, loading your own ammo (especially in our current climate is essential). I purchased maybe 750 API projectiles a couple years ago for less than $1 a bullet. Now no one will even ship them here. Guess who's not worried? Stock pile what you can afford (and extra bolts, springs, detents, etc).Wait and train a bit before you build out several systems. If I had it to do over several of my systems would be piston driven. While the SCAR certainly has its detractors and is unreasonably priced (I dont want to think of what I've got in mine. The 13" barrel alone was $1300, adjustable regulator, KDG handguard, Geissele trigger, etc. But Im comfortable with it whether doing run and gun or prone up to 600 yards... and I'm not the best long range shooter. I spent the money to equip the 16" barrel with a match KDG rail and adjustable regulator. If I HAD to grab one, that system and the 16" barrel would be it.
Sorry for rambling. Ive been in your shoes. Fortunately it sort of worked out. Originally I went with a single stage RCBS press that could handle 50BMG. Loading 9mm, 556, and 300blk out just took way too long so I added a Dillon 750. I still have the RCBS setup to do 50BMG or specific processes, but Im setting up tool heads for the other calibers so I can crank them out in the Dillon. If you're thinking of getting proficient in distance shooting, you'll need to load your own to get the cost/quality in my experience. Otherwise you'll spend years wondering how everyone else is shooting sub MOA and you can't hit MOA.
1. Look at barrel life for a stainless barrel vs barrel life from a quality chrome lined barrel (Criterion). You will need to shoot ALOT to become truly adept with these systems. I go weekly and burn through 200-300 rounds in a dynamic shooting meet.
2. Given your concerns think seriously about getting out and shooting ALOT. Ive got several pretty high end builds. For me a suppressor is almost essential. That has me switching from my Vltor Mur upper, ADM UIC, Geissele MK4 handgaurd, and Criterion barrel to a PWS. I never would've known about this had I not started going with my buddy weekly.
3. Given your concerns and aspirations you need to learn to load your own ammo. I was never able to reach 1 moa until I loaded my own. Im not a sharpshooter like some of these guys, but I was on the SWAT team when I worked in LE before I went to Med School.
Regarding weapons.... be prudent and recognize what you dont know. Stockpiling parts is a great idea IMO. Give it time before you build. Personally if I could go back I'd start with a 14.5" with Criterion barrel, and quality upper and lower with Vltor A5 buffer system and Geissele trigger. I prefer ambi lowers. That setup with do 95% of what the others will do.
After all the ARs I built and trained with, my "go-to" is a 13" SCAR 17. Im not as fast with it and its heavier. Im a big muscular guy so Im not all that fast as it is. Ive got a QD Atlas bipod on my gear and a 1-6 Trijicon on it. I can hit just about anything within 600 yards with my hand loads.
For people that can afford the investment I feel like 300blk out is superior in a SBR. Shooting 110grain vmax supers out of my 8" barrel is so much quieter and far more energy than 77 grain from an 11-12" 556. I have my 11.5" barrel squirrelled away somewhere although I doubt I'd ever reach for it. Between those 3 I've got some great options. If I'm going for 1000 then I bring out the 50 cal. Being as my target is 1000+ yards away its no rush. And no concerns about terminal energy.
When I REALLY got into this I had plenty to spend on the best of the best. I had quite a bit of familiarity with firearms before going to the shoot with my buddy. He's a penny pincher and I built him an Aero build with a Faxon gunner barrel and went as... cost effective as I could. I think I even bought the barrel for him. Despite having my perfectly tuned Vltor, Criterion, Geissele, and ADM build he embarrassed me. He was probably 25% faster and just as accurate. Remember that I did those drills as a SWAT member. Build capable weapons, but they will only be as capable as you are. Ammo and training time are what makes a great shooter (in all respects). Even with tons of money to burn, loading your own ammo (especially in our current climate is essential). I purchased maybe 750 API projectiles a couple years ago for less than $1 a bullet. Now no one will even ship them here. Guess who's not worried? Stock pile what you can afford (and extra bolts, springs, detents, etc).Wait and train a bit before you build out several systems. If I had it to do over several of my systems would be piston driven. While the SCAR certainly has its detractors and is unreasonably priced (I dont want to think of what I've got in mine. The 13" barrel alone was $1300, adjustable regulator, KDG handguard, Geissele trigger, etc. But Im comfortable with it whether doing run and gun or prone up to 600 yards... and I'm not the best long range shooter. I spent the money to equip the 16" barrel with a match KDG rail and adjustable regulator. If I HAD to grab one, that system and the 16" barrel would be it.
Sorry for rambling. Ive been in your shoes. Fortunately it sort of worked out. Originally I went with a single stage RCBS press that could handle 50BMG. Loading 9mm, 556, and 300blk out just took way too long so I added a Dillon 750. I still have the RCBS setup to do 50BMG or specific processes, but Im setting up tool heads for the other calibers so I can crank them out in the Dillon. If you're thinking of getting proficient in distance shooting, you'll need to load your own to get the cost/quality in my experience. Otherwise you'll spend years wondering how everyone else is shooting sub MOA and you can't hit MOA.
A ton of great information here, I greatly appreciate it. I just might get into reloading, but that will have to wait until 2025. I'm definitely going to stock up on spare parts including BCGs, gas systems, LPK's, buffers, and even barrels. Larue MBTs are pretty cheap. So are charging handles. I'm definitely going to do tons of training.
Originally, I had planned for doing builds with a Kreiger, Bartlein, and Proof barrel. All of them cost $600+. But then I considered my shooting habits: Not shooting with ammo I load or match-grade ammo that often (initially) to fully utilize the potentials of those barrels, or shooting 600 yards as frequently as I shoot 400 yards and less. Plus, for my use case anyways, a Criterion, especially a chrome-lined one, seems like a better option, still being able to attain decent accuracy while also getting a good barrel that will last a long time. Plus, changing between guns means that I won't wear out one too fast. So I'm only getting a CLE Bartlein barrel for my SPR build, and my other two builds with my Radian builders kits will be using Criterion barrels. I think I'm probably going to burn through 250 rounds every other weekend. Across 7 guns, and many complete uppers, that shouldn't be too much of a problem. I've heard of guys running Criterion in 3-gun competitions so that makes me more confident in my choice to go with them for my two 3-gun builds.
I don't think I'll be doing 300 Blackout right away, I think I'll wait until 2025 to pursue that and 6mm arc, but I would definitely love to try it out in an SBR format shooting subsonic ammo. I will have my AR10's and Bolt Action guns to reach out to 1000+ yards, and eventually, a 6mm arc build.
But definitely, I'm now going to make loading a priority. Again it won't be until 2025 and I'll have to build a mini shop for it but it seems like a great investment long term.
I absolutely LOVE Criterion. I swapped out my 8" Ballistic Advantage 300blk out barrel (which shot my 110 grain Vmax loads at least MOA) for an 8.5" Criterion for no reason other than it makes me far less inclined to worry about barrel life. My 14.5" Criterion is sub MOA and I dont think I've ever heard of a "bad" Criterion. The difference is only $100 from the more basic barrels.
If I could make one suggestion for you to think about... I waited several years to actually get into reloading. Had I started from the beginning primers were $25 for 1000. Now most are $100 for 1000. 8lbs of quality powder went from $180's to $260s in some cases. I didnt have any idea how much I didnt know until I started loading my own. My first set of 77 grain SMKs with the N140 recipe listed here was the first time I shot sub-MOA out of a semi auto. Our SWAT team was the red headed step child of the Dept. They knew they needed us, but they hated it. We got bottom of the barrel equipment and training. All of us spent a good amount of personal time and money on training and equipment, but we had to use Dept approved ammo which was always minimal risk of over penetration first and foremost.
Firearms and their components always increase in price/value. At worst case they perform better than most 401ks. I have an entire bedroom devoted to my "what-ifs". Its all secured better than 99.9% of homes and it gives me tremendous piece of mind. Buy quality stuff as you can. I recently sold one of my Department purchased Colt 6920s (I think) I paid $800 several years prior. During the panic a friend begged me to sell it to him for $1800. Being a friend I said I would do less. He demanded I take $1800 and continues to thank me to this day.
Id be interested to hear your thoughts on 6mm ARC after shooting some good 77 grain 556 stuff. I dont see the allure. It certainly doesn't compare to the 300blk out versus 556 in short barrels (in my purely research based opinion).
If I could make one suggestion for you to think about... I waited several years to actually get into reloading. Had I started from the beginning primers were $25 for 1000. Now most are $100 for 1000. 8lbs of quality powder went from $180's to $260s in some cases. I didnt have any idea how much I didnt know until I started loading my own. My first set of 77 grain SMKs with the N140 recipe listed here was the first time I shot sub-MOA out of a semi auto. Our SWAT team was the red headed step child of the Dept. They knew they needed us, but they hated it. We got bottom of the barrel equipment and training. All of us spent a good amount of personal time and money on training and equipment, but we had to use Dept approved ammo which was always minimal risk of over penetration first and foremost.
Firearms and their components always increase in price/value. At worst case they perform better than most 401ks. I have an entire bedroom devoted to my "what-ifs". Its all secured better than 99.9% of homes and it gives me tremendous piece of mind. Buy quality stuff as you can. I recently sold one of my Department purchased Colt 6920s (I think) I paid $800 several years prior. During the panic a friend begged me to sell it to him for $1800. Being a friend I said I would do less. He demanded I take $1800 and continues to thank me to this day.
Id be interested to hear your thoughts on 6mm ARC after shooting some good 77 grain 556 stuff. I dont see the allure. It certainly doesn't compare to the 300blk out versus 556 in short barrels (in my purely research based opinion).
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That’s really good to hear. I had not heard of criterion prior to this website but ever since I have discovered them, I’ve been hearing nothing but great reviews about them. I guess they don’t have any website affiliate link otherwise more reviewers would rank them instead of the usual faxon and ballistic advantage and Rainer arms you see in every ranking. I really want a 16-inch core series for my 3 gun rifle and a 12.5 hybrid for my sbr.
I guess I can get started on reloading, my thought was to get the equipment first in 2025 and then begin stocking up on primers and powder later but it might be a good idea to start stocking up on those things before I have my equipment since prices always seem to be going up.
I have been planning my firearms collection since 2017 but only started buying this past October/November. I think every thing I have so far is pretty decent quality. I wanted these to be firearms I can be happy with for the rest of my life.
I will definitely update this forum once I get my 6 mm arc build and have tested it with 1000 rounds.
4 rifles is a lot to know.
10.5" 556 with a quality dot and can
12.5-14.5" 6.5 Grendel with an ACOG or LPVO and can
Covers 97% of what the typical enthusiasts will ever do. Spend the rest on ammo and training.
10.5" 556 with a quality dot and can
12.5-14.5" 6.5 Grendel with an ACOG or LPVO and can
Covers 97% of what the typical enthusiasts will ever do. Spend the rest on ammo and training.
The one I already use for work:
Pws 111
Aimpoint T1 with a gbrs hydra mount
Geiselle 3 gun trigger
Modlite
Peq-15
Gbrs sling(issued but I like it)
Just issued the new eotech night vision in white phosphorus..jury’s still out though..don’t have a lot of experience with them..don’t see how they can be better than my pvs31’s
And a surefire compact can..not actually sure of the model
I got a lot of rifles and carbines..but this is hands down my favorite issued rifle
Pws 111
Aimpoint T1 with a gbrs hydra mount
Geiselle 3 gun trigger
Modlite
Peq-15
Gbrs sling(issued but I like it)
Just issued the new eotech night vision in white phosphorus..jury’s still out though..don’t have a lot of experience with them..don’t see how they can be better than my pvs31’s
And a surefire compact can..not actually sure of the model
I got a lot of rifles and carbines..but this is hands down my favorite issued rifle
Since this is still going on... My 12.5 is pushing 2650 with the can with mk262's. That basically makes it a 750-800y system. I admit it's quite anemic at that range but it can still reach that. Avg 5 rnd groups about .8moa
So I stand by my original comment of a well built 12.5 and 18 covering 100% of the 556 needs. If you need to reach to distance with more oomph step up in caliber. If you need even more 'cqb' (whatever that means these days) step into something that works well in a 9" or shorter barrel
Fwiw I use my 12.5 for cqb. But I have spent most of my adult life doing these things professionally so ymmv
So I stand by my original comment of a well built 12.5 and 18 covering 100% of the 556 needs. If you need to reach to distance with more oomph step up in caliber. If you need even more 'cqb' (whatever that means these days) step into something that works well in a 9" or shorter barrel
Fwiw I use my 12.5 for cqb. But I have spent most of my adult life doing these things professionally so ymmv
To me “CQB” setup is when it’s short enough to run a can in a group comfortably and safely while still being fast..if your running drills by yourself and will never work with a team or suppressed? Barrel length really doesn’t matter
So I’ve tried blackout defense rifles very recently and I am thoroughly impressed with the fit, finish and lock up design
Stock blackout rifle
14.5 with brake and collar for an AEM3
Non adjustable gas block
A5 buffer system with A5H2
The dual taper lock system but in a quad rail
Centurion arms sand cutter bcg with geissele bolt
Blackout zero trigger 3lbs hybrid shoe
All black anodized
Stock blackout rifle
14.5 with brake and collar for an AEM3
Non adjustable gas block
A5 buffer system with A5H2
The dual taper lock system but in a quad rail
Centurion arms sand cutter bcg with geissele bolt
Blackout zero trigger 3lbs hybrid shoe
All black anodized
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