Gunsmithing Start up CNC Mill for real work?

[GasLight]

Hello all, hoping to glean a little more sage advise from the crowd here. I am looking into purchasing a CNC mill. I need something that I can put to work and it will be able to handle production kind of cycles. I don't have a huge budget, which I already know sounds like an oxymoron. I was looking at the Tormach 1100 setup, but wondering if there is any other comparable options in a similar price range? Any cons to the Tormach?

Thanks for any input!!

Dave

 

[turbo54]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

I have experience with Haas, Fadal, Daewoo and Johnford. All were 40 tapers except the Johnford (50 taper).

By far the best value is Daewoo. The Daewoo dealer where my dads shop is in Alamaba sucks, but if you have a good Daewoo dealer, consider them.

The machines I have experience with spend 10 hours a day cutting 17-4 stainless, which is a bitch. You would think the 50 taper machine would easily outclass any 40 taper machine when asked to to heavy duty work with a tough material, but in fact, the Daewoo easily beats it. It will turn a 3" spade drill, and sink it into 17-4 at 2in/min. The Johnford has the balls to turn that drill, but not the z-axis thrust to push it. I realize you probably won't ever be doing such heavy duty tasks, but a machines power/rigidity will make it able to both hog metal when required AND hold good tolerances.

Good luck!

 

[2156SMK]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was looking at the Tormach 1100 setup, but wondering if there is any other comparable options in a similar price range? Any cons to the Tormach?</div></div>

1100lbs is aweful lightweight for a milling machine.
That's a hobby grade milling machine.
Real milling machines that can handle daily use will start around 2300lbs and go up from there as they get even more solid.

I would be looking at a 5-10yr old machine in the 5000+ pound range to keep your price down.

 

[LRI]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

If your doing production work the only way to make the money is to buy a machine built to run day in/day out.

Mazak, Okuma, Kitumura, Mori Seki, are the names of machines you should be looking at.

If your cutting AL then you want a pressurized coolant spindle with at least 300lbs of coolant pressure. you'll also need/want a spindle chiller and a robust control like a FANUC. I'd get it with a 40 taper unless your going after big, big stuff. Then a 50 is better.

Box ways, chip augers, probes, and other odds/ends sure make life nice too.

Cry once and buy it once IMHO.

Good luck.

C.


PS. FWIW any of these machines is going to be well over 10,000lbs so it's to your benefit to have a floor made for it. Some companies now won't even warranty the machine unless its on a monolithic pad segregated from surrounding equipment.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

dave, you need to look at what exactly your requirements are, how much room you have, how much weight your floor can support and how much you can spend on the machine. most people can't fit a 10k lb machine, much less power a 20-30hp motor in their garage.

the tormach is small enough to fit in a garage and will run off of almost any home panel. they are coming out with or have available a tool changer now. there are people doing production with it but it's not really a production machine in my opinion. i've had mine for a few years now and have been happy with it but i have outgrown it. i want faster rapids, more spindle speed and a more rigid machine. it does what they advertise it to do and they don't exaggerated anything when they promote it. if your budget is more and you have more space/power available, i think a different machine would be a better choice for production. what machine that is, i don't have the experience to tell you.

 

[wildbill9ball]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

My $.02 I m a HONEYWELL machinist been running CNC's for 25 years.
I run 3axis,4axis and 5axis mills. Now for the money HAAS is the cheap way.
I have run mazak,kitumura,mori seki,maho,mitsubishi,Pratt & Whitney,
Lebond Makino ,fadal and Haas.

Now haas (1997 up )is cheap but very user friendly especially If you do not have a CAD system.

Now this is just to get you started.

Lease a new machine and let them be responsible for any break downs.
About a $1100 a month($60000).

If your business works out.

I like new Mazaks But at $150000+ a new haas can be had for $50000+

You can find a used HAAS vf0 a round $15000

 

[rero360]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

I would imagine actual power draw is going to depend on hours running and the actually cutting being done, but for those who have a CNC set up, how much is it increasing your electric bill each month?

 

[LRI]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

My shop costs about $750/month in power.

6 days a week, 12 hour+ days.

Sucks writing that check!

 

[GasLight]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dave, you need to look at what exactly your requirements are, how much room you have, how much weight your floor can support and how much you can spend on the machine. most people can't fit a 10k lb machine, much less power a 20-30hp motor in their garage.

the tormach is small enough to fit in a garage and will run off of almost any home panel. they are coming out with or have available a tool changer now. there are people doing production with it but it's not really a production machine in my opinion. i've had mine for a few years now and have been happy with it but i have outgrown it. i want faster rapids, more spindle speed and a more rigid machine. it does what they advertise it to do and they don't exaggerated anything when they promote it. if your budget is more and you have more space/power available, i think a different machine would be a better choice for production. what machine that is, i don't have the experience to tell you.</div></div>

This

I don't have a proven product at this point, I have an idea. I can make a couple of them with a manual mill, but this is extremely time consuming and the cost per item is much higher than being able to start with a CNC that can keep consistency higher and time lower. So, for the time being, I need something that can fit in my garage and be powered at home. I know it won't be ideal, but if the idea takes off, I will at that point look at a legitimate shop and more appropriate machinery.. I'm just at the bottom and can't justify going full blown until I have something that will not only work but also sell...

Thanks for all the input, I was hoping to see if there was something more similar to the Tormach, and should have been more specific in what my 'current' requirements are.

 

[rlr]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

Rather than buying a machine now, you might consider converting your existing mill to CNC. That option does have some limitations, such as faster spindle and ramped/unramped speeds, but it lowers your initial investment and may serve your purposes.

Another option would be to locate a job shop to produce a few and allow you to see what the market for the product is before you make your investment. they mostly work on an hourly rate with an initial setup fee.

 

[GasLight]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

have definately pondered having a machine shop make a few, but I don't like the fact that I am paying for design changes and perhaps setup fees each time. At some point all the money spent on that could go into a machine... just thoughts here, thanks for the input!

 

[LRI]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

Just sub the work. Divide up parts amongst different shops to keep the disclosure easier to manage and let them deal with machine payments, brain damage from coolant pumps clogging up, tools breaking, etc.

 

[gregt]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

I've got a Tormach 1100 and it is very very handy. It's great for prototyping if what you want to make will fit the work envelope. It's not a heavy duty production machine, the ATC on it would be nice but it's not a machine I'd leave running and go home. The coolant system is pretty simple and it doesn't have an automatic oiler. For the money it would outdo pretty much any retrofitted manual mill though.

I bought a Cincinatti Sabre 750 out of a university workshop here to do some production work and the two are worlds apart in size and rigidity. The Tormach is worth every cent it costs, whether it suits what you want to do may be a different story.

 

[Glen Seekins]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

The cnc is the cheap part. Everything needed to support it, feed it and tool it isn't cheap. My new one is a matsuura pallet system and tooling was another 150k to make it sing. I don't even ask how much crap costar anymore. Tumbler for instance to keep up with the parts it puts out....15k!

I would farm it out until you have a market for the item large enough to build a shop around. Tormach is fine for prototype but it's not a production mil.you would be better off with a beat haas. A mini mill new will cost 50k by the time you make your first chip. You at least need to start there.

 

[2156SMK]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">have definately pondered having a machine shop make a few, but I don't like the fact that I am paying for design changes and perhaps setup fees each time. At some point all the money spent on that could go into a machine... just thoughts here, thanks for the input!
</div></div>

You might be surprised how inexpensive a job shop can make your part.
For example, I sourced this part for $300 for 10 pieces, anodized and all just last week on mfg.com.
That part will take 3 setups to make...

 

[GasLight]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The cnc is the cheap part. Everything needed to support it, feed it and tool it isn't cheap. My new one is a matsuura pallet system and tooling was another 150k to make it sing. I don't even ask how much crap costar anymore. Tumbler for instance to keep up with the parts it puts out....15k!

I would farm it out until you have a market for the item large enough to build a shop around. Tormach is fine for prototype but it's not a production mil.you would be better off with a beat haas. A mini mill new will cost 50k by the time you make your first chip. You at least need to start there. </div></div>

Glen,

How did you start out? What was your first machine?

 

[GasLight]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2156SMK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">have definately pondered having a machine shop make a few, but I don't like the fact that I am paying for design changes and perhaps setup fees each time. At some point all the money spent on that could go into a machine... just thoughts here, thanks for the input!
</div></div>

You might be surprised how inexpensive a job shop can make your part.
For example, I sourced this part for $300 for 10 pieces, anodized and all just last week on mfg.com.
That part will take 3 setups to make...
</div></div>

I don't understand what that part is for, and likely don't need to. Do you trust mfg.com as far as non-compete and the like?

 

[Glen Seekins]

Re: Start up CNC Mill for real work?

MFG.com will give you mixed results and i have heard my fair share of horror stories of part quality and super long lead times. Cheap parts and long lead times means someone farmed them out to another country most likely..

I stared at a friends shop and rented his haas until i figured i had enough business to get my own. I purchased a new haas mini mill and worked out of my garage for a year. The only parts it ever made were scope rings and bases. I originally wanted just enough work to pay for the machine because i wanted to be the coolest kid on the block with a cnc in his garage....and here we are today with 7 employees and a whole lot going on.

Whatever you get make dang sure it has a tool changer. If not you are going to cuss yourself in no time. Look at Ebay, There are a bunch of used HAAS machines on there.