Statement from Kestrel. Battery corrosion. Must Read.

[azimutha]

My $.02: Having no dog in this fight, I'm just glad I skimmed through the posts and have been using lithium batteries in my expensive GPS. I tend to leave it sitting for weeks or even months sealed up tight. But if I was the manufacturer in this case and the problem was truly limited I'd just replace all the units affected for free, even if it wasn't all my fault. More than anything, I'm just recording a memo-to-self in case my business is ever in a similar situation.

 

[FNARSHOOTER]

Gentlemen,
Kestral knows about this problem.Yet they still ship units with substandard batterys. If the end user should know to switch to lithium(everybody should know that apparently) why did Kestral not .If they are always improving these units (newer models) why not Fix a existing problem with a simple upgrade(better batterys) or seal the battery compartment(easy enough) . They can't unring the bell on the ones shipped with cheap batterys . The discount on replacement units is too little too late I.M.O But to continue to leave the problem unaddressed is B.S. I guess when you still sell your product why fix it. Being the better option has it's advantage no matter how screwed up you are.We can only hope another company who really wants to build a bullet proof meter will made a Kestral like product with a sealed battery compartment or better rechargeable (like a cell phone) and take control of a market which apparently needs a Manufacture that really cares .

 

[bullseye13]

So if I were to buy a Kestral with the Horus or Applied ballistics software, when I take the batteries out, do I lose my rifle data? Or does it keep that stored and I just need to re calibrate it?

 

[Cobracutter]

Look at it this way.
Thousands of happy Kestrel users, including pro and military users.
Google 'Kestrel battery issues' (I just did).
All that comes up are this thread and a thread from a New Zealand forum...referencing this thread.
Really...it's a non issue.
I sell photographic equipment to industrial/institutional/educational users... pro photographers have know for 20+ years you take your batteries out of your cameras/flashes if they are going to sit for an extended period.
A feeling among some here is that shooters are too smart to have to read their instruments user manual...or that Kestrel is out to screw us all.
NOTICE COBRA I WAS ABLE TO GET MY POINT ACROSS WITHOUT CALLING ANYONE AN IDIOT OR USING FOUL LANGUAGE!
(please disregard if you suffer from turets syndrome...the only way in which I would excuse your behavior)

And you arguments are still 100% WRONG and IREELEVENT

1. Google is a poor indicator of unit failures and is not the end all research tools. If you understood how search engines work with advertising, then that would not have even came out of your mouth.

2. There are a TON of people here , the largest non-bench rest type long distance shooting forum on the internet, that are the exact demographic these items are marketed to.... that are reporting the same problems. I consider that a pattern.

3. Please explain to me how novice users of a weather meter and people who run high end electronic devises for a living have anything in common? Please show me a high end camera that is supplied with a shitty battery or has a design feature that draws current when the unit is of, greatly increasing the likelihood of a battery rupturing and corrosion spreading.

4. Kestral and its agents have deflected blame and not manned up and took care of the issue. They HAD to know there was a problem. I am sure a cost/risk analysis was done a while ago and they realized this course of action would cost them the least amount in the long run. A few lost sales and bad word of mouth is much cheaper than having to redesign the unit to operate as properly and replace the units that are defective under warranty. That is assuming they have somewhat competent people running the show. Looks to me like VERY poor ethics.

 

[Cobracutter]

So if I were to buy a Kestral with the Horus or Applied ballistics software, when I take the batteries out, do I lose my rifle data? Or does it keep that stored and I just need to re calibrate it?

Funny you should ask. Now why would anyone buy an item with these featues, on a unit that requires calibration when you replace/remove batteries with those features.

So they put design features in that would make a reasonable person think you leave the batteries in there so you don't lose all your data

Then they say that there is not really a problem and its only people here making it up

Then they say that you should remove the batteries when not in use

Then due to pressure, they say you should use lithiums ( they supply unit with shitty alkies), and agree to replace defective units at 55% of MSPR (which is VERY hard to belive is even their cost) even though they are what I would consider 90% the causation of the problem.

Then you can be like me, who wants a similar unit, but after this bullshit, would not give them a dime..... and is up shits creek

Bet you can't wait to go out and drop $500 on one now.

 

[FNARSHOOTER]

Patent rights are moot if you change a product by a certain% A redesigned power source(sealed battery box) and perhaps a SD card to retain memory would likely do it. If any company needs to have a product cloned and upgraded Kestral gets my vote. Hear that sounds like the train is coming. Look out Kestral the train of fate stops for nobody!!

 

[Papa Zero Three]

4. Kestral and its agents have deflected blame and not manned up and took care of the issue. They HAD to know there was a problem. I am sure a cost/risk analysis was done a while ago and they realized this course of action would cost them the least amount in the long run. A few lost sales and bad word of mouth is much cheaper than having to redesign the unit to operate as properly and replace the units that are defective under warranty. That is assuming they have somewhat competent people running the show. Looks to me like VERY poor ethics.

Whenever I hear things like this I cant help but think of this clip and how close to the truth it probably is.

Then you can be like me, who wants a similar unit, but after this bullshit, would not give them a dime..... and is up shits creek

There is the Weatherhawk WM-350 that has been compared to the Kestrel 4500 NV that you could use in the mean time. I have one and am happy with it. A review of it can be found here WeatherHawk WM-350: An Alternative to the Kestrel 4500NV

 

[smokebomb]

I'll keep my kestrel opinion to myself at this time.

*AS TO SAVING DATA WHEN REMOVING BATTERIES:*

Per the manual on the 4500:
(Pg 5) After installing the batteries, the Kestrel Meter will automatically start in the Date and Time Setting mode. (See Date and Time Setup.) Custom settings and chart data will be saved during a battery change; only the date/time and MMA values will be lost

Though page 6 goes on to say:
Calibrating the Digital Compass
Due to the magnetic signature of the AAA batteries, the Kestrel 4500’s digital compass must be calibrated, or “taught” to correct for the magnetic field of the batteries. This must be done each time the batteries are changed or the battery door is opened. If your unit has not been calibrated, it will display “uncalibrated” at the base of the Direction, Crosswind and Headwind screens and will not display or log any values until it has been calibrated.


Take that for what you will.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

So many points have been stated in this thread. And other threads like this.

So many accusations have been stated in this thread. And other threads like this.

So many wrong assumptions have been stated in this thread. And other threads like this.

When will people actually stick to the topic at hand, and continue to discourse along a unified tangent?

I for one, have tried a number of times to swing the discussion back to the topic at hand. Some 'individuals' here seem to think that the problem is, only is, and specifically lies with the battery, only the battery, and nothing but the battery. EEEEEEEeeeeehhh WRONG. Hellooooo.... is this thing ON???? Is anyone out there? I can hear you metabolizing oxygen.... (Sheldon Cooper quote)

Any battery will die, and get 'extra-dead' when it is drained, and a load "continued" on said battery. HENCE THE DESIGN PROBLEM that began this tirade. Hello. Hello again.

Let's pretend the problem doesn't exist, and simply through diversion and distraction we'll pretend more that "it's THEIR fault, over THERE.... not our fault,,, over here". Let's make it sound like we are superior to everyone and everything, and the rest of the Universe is simply imbeciles and morons. What a great way to garner market respect and cultivate customer appreciation and referrals. Not.

I can totally understand how certain individuals are getting frustrated with the incessant repetition of the oft-stated facts. Multiply that with the ever-present droning of the company-line carriers as well as the "bought-and-paid-for" cheering section (who're only missing their pom-poms. Yes, it is that obvious) and this discussion gets old, quick.

As far as I'm concerned at the moment, this topic is beginning to be circular and pointless. Unless there is some actual accountability by the Kestrel company, and some actual effort to make amends for the situation let alone atonement for the intended mis-direction, I don't see the point in either going forward OR recommending this/these products to anyone else.

Yeah, I did the best I could here to keep it civil, avoid calling a Spade a Shovel, and debase myself to schoolyard adolescent name-calling. Not saying I succeeded, just did my best at the moment. Ya'll examples of perfection can take over for now, while I step back a bit. I for one am not a "blood-type-patch" wearing member, so I obviously don't matter.

Ain't discussion and civility great?

 

[kis2]

Gents,

I'm not here to debate whether what Kestrel did is enough or not, but I just had one delivered and it does have a lithium battery inside. All the debate aside, I'm just here to say thanks to the hide members who went through (and are going through) what they did with their Kestrels and made enough noise about it so that I didn't have to. You guys made it so that a lot of other folks didn't have to.

Genuinely guys, thanks.

 

[stang02]

i just bought a new kestrel 4500 on 6/7/2013 and i picked it up today 6/12/2013. it has rayovac alkaline batteries in a clear plastic bag with a shim. i was hoping it would have come with the lithium batteries. oh well

 

[bobtodrick]

Really lets put this to rest. Here is a quote from a battery manufacturerer:
"Lithium batteries can provide extremely high currents and can discharge very rapidly when short-circuited. Although this is useful in applications where high currents are required, a too-rapid discharge of a lithium battery can result in overheating of the battery, rupture, and even explosion. Lithium-thionyl chloride batteries are particularly susceptible to this type of discharge. Consumer batteries usually incorporate over current or thermal protection or vents in order to prevent explosion."

Lithium batteries can leak...far less likelyhood than alkaline but nothing in life is a guarantee. The old adage of 'remove batteries if you're not going to use the device for long periods' still holds true.
Ya know what I see here...the same reasoning (by some) that has caused McDonalds to have to warn you that the coffee is HOT...too many people who think everything in life should be faultless and they should have to take no responsibility in anything in life.
Jeeezzzz!!!

 

[bogeybrown]

Lost all data on battery inspection. WTF????????????

After reading this thread I decided to go ahead and do a quick inspection on my batteries. I pulled them out, did a quick visual, and put them back in. My Kestral dumped ALL MY STORED DATA!!!!!!!!!!!!! ALL OF IT, EVERYTHING. I'm about positive that this is not the first time I've had batteries out of it, but I could be wrong.
I was POSITIVE that my data would be stored during a battery swap.
There has GOT to be something wrong, because there is NO POINT in this super cool gizmo if it dumps all your fricken data when you change batteries.

If anyone knows how to retrieve data, or if the great folks (meant sincerely) at Kestral are still monitoring this thread, I would LOVE some advice on this.

 

[Integr8d]

Wow. Totally feel bad that this is my first post at the Hide. FWIW, I've been reading these threads for a long while now. Mostly just gathering data to make some informed decisions. Stumbled across this post by... sorry, actually had to go back into my browser history to remember... reading some guy's short review at a retailer. All that he mentioned was the batteries, warranty and being left with a paperweight.

Off the bat, I can offer to everyone and to Kestrel that I'm canceling my standing order with SWFA for the 4500 and going with the Weatherhawk 350 (made in Utah). And thanks to whoever did the comparison. The feature set lines up pretty well with the 4500 (including crosswind). And I'll save myself $200 by entering my atmospherics manually (i.e. no Bluetooth)... After reading that post by the CEO or whoever, I will never buy or recommend a Kestrel product. And I'm kind of shocked by the number of people who see this as a company 'standing beside their products'. Yeah, right. Not so much. For anyone, in the future, that happens to read this thread; if you're a little hazy on the CEO's post, it's basically 90% meaningless damage control and if you take Kestrel up on their 'deal', you're basically paying $900-1000 for (1) weather meter and a ballistics comp. Or another way to look at it; that's one Weatherhawk 350 plus a Retina iPad with 1000x faster processor and a ballistics program that gets updated weekly. (((If someone 20 years from now is reading this, iPads were these things we bought our wives and kids but eventually found uses for ourselves.)))

Kestrel clearly intended for customers to use the alkaline batteries. There are clearly hardware and software flaws. I'm not sure how many people were effected by this. But if it's 500 people, that's a nice, little class action. And seeing as how Kestrel is now the beneficiary of my tax dollars, I'd think that they could at least do right by people who voluntarily pay for their products. And for those of you who are real activists, it doesn't take but a few minutes to post a review of your experience at any and all web retailers (and fairly, under all of their products with exposed battery compartments).

After all, that's how I stumbled on this thread *looks up to sky, "Thank you."

Yes, I'm long-winded. Not how I imagined a first post to go. But looking forward to some good moments here. Take it easy, all...

 

[Christopher Rance]

Bogey Brown, let me see what the answer is on that. I know allot of people use a secondary app to store, such as Kestrel crumb ect..

 

[Papa Zero Three]

Bogey Brown, let me see what the answer is on that. I know allot of people use a secondary app to store, such as Kestrel crumb ect..

While you're asking, can you find out if there is one for those of us who use an iphone and not Android? Thanks.

 

[bogeybrown]

Bogey Brown, let me see what the answer is on that. I know allot of people use a secondary app to store, such as Kestrel crumb ect..

Thanks. I'd also sent an email offering to send my unit in if it were possible to retrieve the lost data, but at this point I'm just starting over and will make sure I have all my values written down before changing batteries.
Any advice on a storage app would be great.

 

[Christopher Rance]

I'm still waiting on an answer on data recovery but in the meantime I would take these steps to prevent data loss again.

1.) Download Kestrel Communicator Interface Software, v 2.1.1 compatible with ALL Kestrel 4000 series models.

2.) Sync unit.

Again, I'm still waiting on an answer on why and if we can extract that data from prior battery swap.


For IOS apps, still nothing out. The reason is;
All iOS devices support ONLY the various audio related profiles (headset, stereo headset, phone book) for standard Bluetooth. They do not support the “SPDP” – serial port data protocol – for wireless data exchange. The only way to exchange data with a non-jailbroken iPhone is if the hosted device has a physical Apple authentication chip in it and has gone through the extensive Apple testing to allow data exchange. Pretty much nobody does this because it’s painful and expensive. That is why a Bluetooth Kestrel 4000 cannot hand data to Shooter or any of the other ballistics apps in iOS.

Most Android devices DO support SPDP in their firmware and provide built-in API’s for making connections and exchanging data. Bluetooth | Android Developers.

We have provided information and support to a variety of Android developers to leverage this ability so data can be polled directly from the Kestrel into the application. A list of our current partners is here: Kestrel® Software Development Partners.

 

[BirdEyes]

Wow. .... All that he mentioned was the batteries, warranty and being left with a paperweight.

Off the bat, I can offer to everyone and to Kestrel that I'm canceling my standing order with SWFA for the 4500 and going with the Weatherhawk 350 (made in Utah).

Well if you are thinking this is going to avoid the problems noted by users of the Kestrel unit, you'll be in for a surprise. From the Weatherhawk manual:

"WM-350 provides an audible storm alarm that alerts you to weather changes, even if the unit is off."

So you are willing to give up some potentially useful and time saving features in exchange for not having to have to worry about the batteries. Sorry to say the functionality quoted above and others in the unit mean that its battery is under constant drain as well. The question becomes whether the battery compartment is better engineered and/or partitioned off from destroying the circuitry when the batteries leak. The CR2032 batteries should be less prone to catastrophic leakage but they do leak. I've not seen the Weathermate so I am not in a position to comment on its integrity or design. Your announcement 'to the world' illustrates only a reactionary impulse based response.

 

[Integr8d]

Well if you are thinking this is going to avoid the problems noted by users of the Kestrel unit, you'll be in for a surprise. From the Weatherhawk manual:

"WM-350 provides an audible storm alarm that alerts you to weather changes, even if the unit is off."

So you are willing to give up some potentially useful and time saving features in exchange for not having to have to worry about the batteries. Sorry to say the functionality quoted above and others in the unit mean that its battery is under constant drain as well. The question becomes whether the battery compartment is better engineered and/or partitioned off from destroying the circuitry when the batteries leak. The CR2032 batteries should be less prone to catastrophic leakage but they do leak. I've not seen the Weathermate so I am not in a position to comment on its integrity or design. Your announcement 'to the world' illustrates only a reactionary impulse based response.

Fair enough. The Weatherhawk may also be prone to causing battery leakage and/or design flaws that could lead to catastrophic effects. That's one variable. And I'll let you know, as soon as I receive it. Another major variable is how Weatherhawk will service their customers... What is known is that Kestrel units do suffer from these issues and that Kestrel has an abysmal policy for servicing customers that experience them... Not to get too personal. But I feel that the logic in my response is sound. And I don't feel that it's fair to characterize it as reactionary or impulse-based (they mean the same thing). It was an honest assessment that needed very little time or thought. 2 and 2, in this case, came up to 4 rather quickly.

As an anecdote, I had a Samsung blu-ray player. I turned it on one day. And it automatically started to download an update. That update promptly bricked the box. A call to Samsung returned the response that it was out of warranty. So I slow-walked the CS rep through it. (1) You sold me a box. (2) It's no longer under warranty. (3) Your servers then transmitted a software update to it which broke it. (4) Now you're claiming no responsibility. (5) Do you really want to go down this road? They made the right choice.

I see a lot of parallels between that story and what these guys are going through. The difference is in the outcome... Kestrel made their choice. I've made mine. And you're free to make yours. Since it's apparent that you already own a Kestrel, I hope you have good luck with it and that the 'useful and time saving features' are not only potential but realized.

One statement that I have to step back from is that the Weatherhawk is made in Utah. The review on this site states that it's made in China. It's a priority to me that deserves a straight answer.

Take it easy.

 

[Integr8d]

The word from WeatherHawk is that the WM-350 is made in China or Taiwan. Their weather stations are made in Utah. That was a mistake on my part, as I skimmed their literature...

On the bright side, I received this reply from them, when inquiring as to how they'd go about handling a situation similar to the 4500 owners...

"We replace all units free of charge, within the two year warranty, if there is a defect due to materials or workmanship. If there is a design issue, such as a catastrophic failure from a recommended battery, we replace all effected products, regardless of age, by recall, at no charge. If a unit wears out, due to use, and is outside the Warranty and cannot be repaired by replacement of the impeller unit, we will sell a replacement at 50% of Retail."

Pretty solid.

Another bit of interesting information is that they'll be releasing a Bluetooth unit in September. It will hand off basic data (wind speed and air temp) to a smartphone. A more advanced, follow-up unit will incorporate all environmental data and either transmit it or roll it into a built-in ballistics calculator. I wasn't given any details, insofar as who will be providing that software. But as long as the algorithms are solid, it should do what it's expected to do. I'll try to get more info... My hope, where a ballistics unit is concerned is that it's field upgradeable. Being able to keep factory loads updated over bluetooth or usb, as well as custom loads would be awesome. Entering all of that data with those tiny buttons would be a chore. Being able to do it via laptop would be sweet.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

I'm happy with my WM 350, I bought it based on the review here on SH. I was skeptical at first but once I got my hands on it and compared it to a kestrel, I couldn't find any fault with it. The mfgrs warranty and willingness to stand behind their product is just another reason why I think the WM 350 is a product worth investing in.

 

[Weim79]

Can anybody guess what happened today when I went to change the batteries on my Kestrel 4500nv??? The raovac batteries have spewed all over the inside of the meter. I have called the manufacture and they have not responed at this time.

 

[Wnick308]

Can anybody guess what happened today when I went to change the batteries on my Kestrel 4500nv??? The raovac batteries have spewed all over the inside of the meter. I have called the manufacture and they have not responed at this time.

Me too, just found out one Rayovac exploded on both ends and now my 4000 BT keypad is not working. I'll call tomorrow and see what I can work out.

 

[Neversummer]

My 4500 AB shipped with lithium batteries, and after removing/replacing them the unit appeared to lose my data.
After inputting time/date my 4 gun profiles were back.
Satisfied customer here.

 

[Capt Academy]

tagged for later!

 

[DP425]

So has a true "off" function been added? It sounds like this is a long shot, but how about IOS support?

 

[Kestrel Ballistics]

If you should run across this thread from years ago, this post does not apply to the 5700 series as we supply and recommend using only Lithium batteries.

 

[steve123]

If you should run across this thread from years ago, this post does not apply to the 5700 series as we supply and recommend using only Lithium batteries.

Old thread but I left the Alk batteries in my old Kestrel all winter a couple years ago and guess what happened?!

Can it be repaired at a low enough cost to avoid the expense of buying a new one and/or do you guys have refurbished Kestrels for sale?

 

[Trigger Monkey]

What brand of battery?

Some battery manufacturer warranties will cover electronics damaged by battery leaks. Had this happen years ago when the Rayovac batteries in my Kestrel 4000 leaked. I sent the batteries and Kestrel to Rayovac and they sent me a check for the retail value of the Kestrel and I was able to get a 4500NV with no money out of pocket.

 

[steve123]

What brand of battery?

Some battery manufacturer warranties will cover electronics damaged by battery leaks. Had this happen years ago when the Rayovac batteries in my Kestrel 4000 leaked. I sent the batteries and Kestrel to Rayovac and they sent me a check for the retail value of the Kestrel and I was able to get a 4500NV with no money out of pocket.

Wow that turned out great for you!

At the time I didn't pay attention to the batteries I had used. Then just figured I was SOL. I'm trying to remember but I think Kestrel mentioned in the instructions I was supposed to remove the batteries for storage but I had forgot.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

It makes you pay a little more attention to battery warranties for sure lol. On paper, Duracell has a pretty shit warranty compared to Rayovac and Energizer too because it only covers the original purchaser for 2 years from date of purchase and you have to have the receipt from the purchase for proof.

 

[Rookie]

I lost a Kestrel years ago due to battery leakage. Never knew batteries had warranties for damage.

 

[Kestrel Ballistics]

Old thread but I left the Alk batteries in my old Kestrel all winter a couple years ago and guess what happened?!

Can it be repaired at a low enough cost to avoid the expense of buying a new one and/or do you guys have refurbished Kestrels for sale?

Sorry, no repair.

 

[ToddM]

Old thread but this is why these days for anything I consider valuable I either use eneloop rechargeable batteries or Energizer lithiums. I've never had either leak in probably 20 years and hundreds of them.

Meanwhile the last 5-10 years or so, I've had every major "premium" brand of alkaline batteries leak, duracell, rayovak, energizer, kirkland, etc. Some of them while still in the original packaging. Used to buy tons of Rayovak batteries during home depot's black friday sales, but the last few years both they and duracell have leaked repeatedly. It's too bad Costco stopped carrying eneloop cells, they were quite cheap there.

Anything I use frequently I use eneloops in, anything that's infrequent use but needs to work, I either keep the batteries out of it, or use Energizer lithiums.

I need to follow my own advice better! For giggles I checked some devices around the house, mostly flashlights cheaper stuff etc. I bet half of them had leaking batteries for those that didn't have lithiums or eneloops in. Mix of duracell, kirkland, energizer.

Normally this time of year battery junction has good battery sales for black friday and I stock up. Sadly the good old days of getting energizer lithiums on sale for under $1 are long gone. I use them a lot for coin cells too, don't buy them from Amazon, they are rampant with counterfeit batteries in the 2016/2032 sizes etc.

The battery leak warranty is interesting, I've never really checked into that. Considering all of them tend to leak it seems it probably pays to go with the brand that offers the most leak protection in case of equipment damage.

Just poking around a bit it seems like Duracell is not the way to go.

• I could not find an official duracell link but other sites had it posted that Duracell would repair/replace an item in 2-5 years from battery purchase, but you had to have the sales receipt.
• Rayovak seems like they will repair or replace the damaged device with a replacement, or one of equal market value as long as the batteries have not expired. No mention of a receipt needed. This might be the most flexible since it sounds like newer Rayovak's have 10 year expiration dates.
• Energizer seems like they will repair or replace the batteries and device like Rayovak but their wording is "within the full life of the battery I assume this is expiration date), or within 2 years of the full use of the battery. Again no mention of a sales receipt. Also as an aside Energizer bought Rayovak back around 2019.
• Not sure about kirkland, couldn't find any official policy but a couple folks posted that they returned the device and batteries to costco and were reimbursed for the product.

The other thing that's interesting and maybe I just can't remember, but typically I go through more AAA's than AA's and I don't know if I ever remember having a AAA or 9v leak, it's almost always AA's. Not sure if it's current drain, construction etc.