This whole thread has me yearning for the day these actually hit the dealer's shelves. It will be the most expensive scope I'll own to date, but I'm pretty sure that it will hold me for a while...or at least my wallet hopes so.
Rifle Scopes Steiner Optics Factory / The new T5Xi thread (-!!-Picture Heavy-!!-)
- Thread starter COLOSHOOTR
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Ha! I'm sure you know that you're one of the folks I was thinking of when I mentioned that some people hate MTC turrets! As I mentioned, I think Martin and the Steiner team made a smart decision by not adding a feature of this type to their new scope, since there really is such a love or hate relationship with the MTC clicks within in the shooting community. I won't lie, I'm cool with the MTC style turret, but I can certainly live without it, too. In other words, the MTC option probably wouldn't be a make-or-break for me with a scope purchase, but it would be a deal breaker if I hated it and had to have it on a scope (like you). So, if I were to decide whether or not to add a feature like this to an optic that was going to be sold to others, I'd have probably done just as Martin has with this scope. Plus, not including that feature saves some production costs, and that savings clearly seems to be passed down the line to the end user in this case.
You're spot-on about the warranty issue. It's my single biggest gripe about Schmidt and Bender, because I think they ought to stand behind their product indefinitely, especially when you're putting $3.5K on the table to acquire it. Steiner clearly wins on this aspect! While I was at the factory they showed me some of the products that were covered under their warranty, and some of these products were pretty clearly abused by the end user. So, from my perspective Steiner really means it when they claim to have a lifetime warranty, and I think they've covered repairs on some products that they could have easily rejected under the "deliberate misuse" clause in the warranty.
Where reticles are concerned, I can't complain about either option. The H2CMR reticle is one of the main reasons I got my Schmidt and Bender, and at the time that it was first produced I didn't see anyone else making an alternative that would do what I wanted to do. For me the mission dictated a relatively "clean" reticle that allowed for precise wind holds, without the cluttered appearance of a Horus reticle (or something similarly "busy"). When I shoot I almost always dial my scope for elevation, and hold for windage. This style of shooting has always made sense for 99% of my engagements, where the target distance is a relative constant, and the wind is a constant variable. As such, I dial for the distance of my shot, then hold the windage "on the line" within the scope.
Because of the shooting style I employ, I wanted a reticle that would allow for precise holds of no more than 0.2 MILs on the reticle (at which point I could easily bracket the reticle to hold for 0.1 MIL). As I mentioned, the H2CMR was my original solution for such a mission, and was probably the only reticle that would accomplish this goal at the time. However, the SCR reticle is an example of how the industry advances over time, and I think they've got something good going in that design. It allows for the same basic capability that I like in my H2CMR reticle, but it's a totally unique reticle that has a different feature set than the one in my S&B. In other words, it should also accomplish the task for me like my H2CMR, but it isn't a clone of an H2CMR, and it wasn't directly based off of the H2CMR.
I'll again provide the caveat that I need to shoot this scope to get a full appreciation of its characteristics, but I think the reticle was smartly designed with features that will interest most shooters. The use of vertical hash marks instead of open circles at each full MIL of windage is nice on the SCR, as is the fact that every other MIL is marked with an unobtrusive number (which prevents you from becoming lost in the reticle when quickly acquiring targets and concentrating on different tasks related to taking the shot — it's surprisingly easy to make such mistakes under pressure otherwise). The "cross" in the center of the reticle stands alone, and appears to quickly draw your eye to the target itself, which is good when time is of the essence. Also, the thicker lines on the outside of the reticle help you "find center" when you're shooting at lower magnification levels (something that's important with FFP scopes, in my opinion).
As I mentioned, I've already had a couple of years behind the H2CMR, and I haven't yet had the opportunity to shoot the Steiner T5Xi with the SCR reticle. But, I like what I'm seeing so far!
My opinion absolutely would not change. There is a lot more to good glass than the type of coatings used on the glass. In the world of optics, not even just scopes but all optics including cameras, German glass remains king. Then American/other euro glass then Japanese glass then the glass made in China is last. That is by no means a comprehensive list but is generally how it goes with very few exceptions. The clarity of the glass, with my limited knowledge, is based on the purity of the glass, the grinding/shape of the lens and final polishing / coatings. German engineering is known for going above and beyond to near perfection and that's why their glass is generally known to be the best.
Your nightforce no matter what "vintage" still has lower quality glass made in Japan. While it is still good glass and may use excellent raw materials is final production generally not as good.
I will admit thathat I definitely don't have any love for Nightforce. I do agree that they make a solid durable scope but they just seem to hang on by their past reputation and their FFP offerings are pretty weak. The Beast release pretty much made it a flop and I've still yet to actually see one in person. The F1 is way to expensive for what you get. Quality wise Bushnell seems to be right on part with Nightforce but Bushnell blows Nightforce away with the various offerings in FFP with more reticle choices and different magnification ranges at similar or even lower
I own a Bushnell HDMR and have shot through several Nightforce scopes of various "vintages" and I really did think the glass was awesome. Then I shot the same scopes with a S&B and a Steiner MX5I and was blown away. Bushnell and Nightforce definitely are not as awesome when you shoot them side by side at the same targets at the same ranges in the same lighting conditions. The S&B and Steiner are visibly clearer and you can pick up finer details through them over the Bushnell and NF.
Don't fool yourself Nightforce is still behind the curve and they live on reputation. Other brands have caught up and surpassed their offerings. Yet people still flock to buy them because Navy SEALS use them, not because they do anything better than any other brand.
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Not to start an argument, but who in the USA manufactures optical quality lenses or glass? I was under the impression that there were none left.
I was also under the impression that Japanese glass was on par with German. As they do make some of the best cameras in the world. I know, I know... Camera glass does not translate to scope glass quality.
I was also under the impression that Japanese glass was on par with German. As they do make some of the best cameras in the world. I know, I know... Camera glass does not translate to scope glass quality.
That's not why I bought mine. I also have a 4-16 Hensoldt. I bought the NF to use as a backup, based on Lowlight's assertion that the coatings were improved and the image quality was better than I thought. My prior experience with them was that the image was dull. I like the mechanics but could not live with the lack of contrast. So when I took a chance and hot this one I was floored. It's every bit as sharp and contrasty as the Henny. Every bit. And I have spent a lot of time behind each.
While other scope companies have caught up as far as features go, I doubt that most of them are as durable and reliable.
I'm an H2CMR fan, but for $2k I can learn to live with another reticle. I love built in the US too.
The H2CMR does nothing that the SCR does and one thing I wanted to mention was the H2CMR has one glaring weakness that the SCR does not - .1 mil hashes on the horizontal. I used to have the S&B 3-20 and loved the H2CMR; all the more reason I am eagerly anticipating the new SCR, 0.2 mil holds (YES
)I recently sold my Kales to a left handed friend (easy for him to check parallax) and it was a great scope optically. I unfortunately didn't get to shoot it in extreme mirage. I personally can say that the new 5-25 performed AMAZINGLY in mirage. Even though the target was bouncing all over the place, I was able to shoot at 20-25 power no problem.
Im not sure what unicorn infused NF you have but 99%+ will not be in the same conversation as a Henny, let alone the same ball park. New or old. There is THAT much of a difference. The only scope I regretted selling was my Hendsoldt, but 16 wasn't enough power for some of these matches where you have to zoom in to recognize your shooting number/target shapes, etc.
Ive shot every major optic at a major match the past 3 years one time or another, and until the recent PRS finale this year, I have never shot a scope that is exactly what I want in a scope. The T5xi is the holy grail I've been looking for. Don't even try to tell me that the $1500 you will be saving over a competitors scope isn't substantial (it most def is for this self employed construction worker), let alone the lack of quality (heck ANY) difference.
My thoughts after using the new Steiner 5-25 T5xi at the PRS Finale at Frost, TX:
-The glass was better than anything I have used at higher power 17+ (I think all high end scopes compare at low power)
-the rect was a dream to be able to hold so precisely and not cover the small targets.
-the clicks were spaced far enough apart you don't have to squint to see what number you are on, and lined they up perfectly. I wont get caught up on the trick numbers switching because shooting out to 1200 yards at the finale, I never went above 8-9mils. With a 308/223, I would prob love it, and look forward to getting a 3-15 as soon as they come out for my 308. This may have been one of my favorite features on this scope. either the clicks or the rect. Not sure.
-zoom knob turned smooth. I feel the older steiner zoom ring is a little stiff for rapid movement, which I really like doing.
-the focus ring has a locking ring to keep it from spinning out of focus when you bump the lens cover. Really like this.
-weight...really don't care lol but it is very light.
-I still am in awe of the glass. I didn't expect it to be that much better than my other steiner, but I think it was. Mirage I believe is a more telling sign of glass quality than low light, and this scope was great in the mirage of Texas (as well as shooting in low light. Target below was shot when all I could see was orange dot...200y for top and 400y for bottom. Vertical was around 1/4moa)
-rect thickness is going to be discussed, just like everything, everyone has a preference. I like to be as precise as possible. I have friends that want to shoot at 12x no matter what. I understand that's "do-able" but if you have it why not use it? ESP when shooting at a 2" target at 320 yards (dik move brah
) This SCR has a .2mil center cross (0.1 each direction from vert) then a .1mil gap, then proceeds in .2 increments. I cant convey how useful that is when shooting at smaller targets that are always placed in the 200-500 range at matches. The 2 upright "field goal" posts on the top can be split for an exact .5 hold. The pictures below are crap cell phone and Im not a photographer. The SCR isn't that thin, and the MSR isn't that thick, I just showed them both for comparison. I always felt the MSR was much too thick. The SCR is right on the nose.Some pics:
T5xi
5x
15x
25x
M5xi
both by each other
25x
Yes my pictures are horrible
I have or have owned every scope out there. I get around
and I am very excited about this offering. The way scope prices keep going up disgusts me. I sold my S&B when the prices jumped to $3700 or whatever they're at now. Im very impressed Steiner is able to get this package together AND bring the scope price down. Steiner LISTENED to the shooters, not some unrealistic government contract, THAT is what is most prevalent here.
Regards,
DT
Attachments
The only difference is the Henny has a bigger eyebox. The resolution and contrast edge to edge is the same. Your Henny must have been a unicorn. I'm on my 3rd high end Zeiss so I know what to expect.
I have or have owned every scope out there. I get around
Steiner LISTENED to the shooters, not some unrealistic government contract, THAT is what is most prevalent here.
Regards,
DT
Wow. I had no idea that the 3-20x S&B had jumped that high! In fact, after reading your post I looked it up for myself. That's insane, and a good chunk more than mine cost us a couple of years ago. Unfortunately this seems to follow the trend for S&B, wherein they continuously raise the price by a few hundred dollars per year.
I can't complain about the performance of my S&B, but they aren't setting themselves up to remain competitive in a market where other quality manufacturers (like Steiner) are releasing very excellent products at much lower price points, and supporting those products with much better warranties. And, while I may be in the minority in caring about this stuff these days, I still put some value on the fact that the Steiner T5Xi was made right here in America (any rumors to the contrary are merely that — I watched it myself)!
Where's that put the bottom line for me?
If I were able to purchase a scope tomorrow it would be the Steiner T5Xi.
I have or have owned every scope out there. I get around
DT
Sounds f-ing great, thanks for the write up. Prices have been exorbitant for so long and getting worse, competitions is good for the consumer obviously.
I have had two of the older Steiner 25 with MSR and currently run the 16x and they have always been solid, even compared to the holy grails like the SnB. Cant wait to see how this new one performs.
But only if we could purchase it tomorrow...
Thanks for the insight guys. Keep it up please. I need strength to stay out of the px with my T5Xi money!
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Don't worry, it's coming soon! I know I've heard a few folks complaining that the scope wasn't released quite as quickly as anticipated, but it's definitely coming very soon. And, by industry standards it will be decidedly early… I seem to recall waiting about a year beyond the expected arrival date for my S&B 3-20x, and the NF Beast still hasn't really materialized as expected (at least as far as I can tell).
Stay out of the PX, and I think you'll be happy to have the T5Xi money available when the finished product hits the shelves. It does exist! I've held it and played with it myself
Damn.... I don't know what you do for a living but damn hook a brother up with a job! If you have a henny are on your third high end Zeiss and have a near perfect Nightforce F1 you must be making a small fortune! I am not sure I want to know how many top end rifles you have because I may start to feel very inadequate....
Just awesome news all around, for dealers and customers alike! Great to see American workers and tech doing their thing!
good thread... now I know they're 4K per scope
Huh?
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Sorry I meant this is a good thread and after reading it , now I know why they're such high quality scope and sell for around $4000 per scope
I think that you may be referring to the price of the Military Steiner Scope Line (M5Xi etc.) made in Germany. This is the Tactical Steiner Scope Line (T5Xi etc.) being made here in Colorado. The T5Xi is expected to sell for $2000.
Even the MX5I can be found for $3K so where did you get that $4K number from? The retail pricing for the T5Xi is supposed to be:
3-15x retail should be $1800.
5-25x retail should be $2000.
VERY funny you should say that. I just got a new F1 last week and took it to a match this weekend. The guy next to me had an S&B (in the sexy new RAL8000), and he let me check it out.
Yeah....I'm a critical fucker when it comes to my equipment, and I'll spend a lot more to get that last 10% every time. But I have to tell you, that $6000 scope didn't look $4000 better than my 2014 F1. As a matter of fact, to my eye the difference in clarity and resolution were not much...like just barely perceptible.
I, too, will be getting one of these new Steiners.
I must say your post explains this debate perfectly.... There is a small difference and I definitely agree that it's not worth a couple thousands more. I even feel that my Bushnell is pretty darn good and didn't lose much by saving an extra $2,000 in my wallet. I still would never go out and claim my Bushnell was as clear as a henny or S&B.... I would love to own the best scope with the best glass of all time even if it were only 5% better and hardly noticeable but I also am not made of money and don't want to be, "scope broke."
That being said I can't pass up on the excellent glass Steiner is offering for $2k and I will definitely spend the money on one. I just hope these things fly off the shelf as fast as they are made because maybe the other manufacturers will take note. If that happens it's a win win for us as shooters and top level glass could become affordable to all of us!
You would prolly see the same thing with Henny vs S&B.
I think S&B resolves better. I got the Henny cuz it is very compact. The S&B is like a baseball bat.
Buying one of these asap. Glad I waited. I'm sure there are plenty of others on this site in my exact situation. Good read. Thanks guys.
Yep......I am in the same situation. I love the direction Steiner and Vortex are going. Every day I switch back and forth from Steiner to Vortex. I am trying my hardest to wait until I actually get to handle one of these before I make my final decision. Come on Steiner Optics, and just send me a demo to play with for a couple of days. I promise I will send it back
</flatliner>
Yep......I am in the same situation. I love the direction Steiner and Vortex are going. Every day I switch back and forth from Steiner to Vortex. I am trying my hardest to wait until I actually get to handle one of these before I make my final decision. Come on Steiner Optics, and just send me a demo to play with for a couple of days. I promise I will send it back
</flatliner>
I could really use a demo too! Or one on a no interest payment plan now that I'm broke after buying my AI lol!
I actually was in the same boat and was strongly considering a Razor gen. 2 before I got to see these new Steiner scopes. The SCR reticle and that awesome turret design is what got me set on the Steiner over the Vortex. It doesn't hurt that the Steiners are made here in my home state either!
It really is nice to see some good glass at more reasonable prices though!
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That would be great, but I don't see it happening. These scopes are marketed to compete with others in its price range. The ATACR, vortex, ior. No way will the ultra pricey lower theirs. But it's always nice to have competition in the scopes of that price range.
They should probably purge the scopes a couple extra times to get rid of the Greely stench.
If Steiner and Vortex start cutting into their market share in a big way we might see them launch a "value" product line to compete, while keeping their current "premium" lines and pricing intact, which Nightforce sort of does already with their hunting scope. When you think about it, this is what Steiner is doing with their Tactical scope line. The M series scopes will be a grand more and serve for government contracts, people who feel the scopes are 1k better, and people who want to show they can spend 3k+ on a scope.
What I would like to be a fly on the wall for is when Steiner tries to explain to a customer why they should spring for the M series as opposed to the T series.
It is not going to happen overnight that's for sure. There will always be those that will spend money on the most expensive scope just to have one or because they have the disposable income to buy the ultra pricey because it is the "best." If these lower priced products maintain high quality standards and sell like hot cakes they will take a good chunk of the market share. When that happens and it hits their wallets companies like S&B will probably take notice and put something out at a reasonable price point. There is definitely more Mark up built into the prices than most realize because we have not had many other options till recently and people have been forking out the cash.
No need to explain as you said above people will pay just to get the few additional features and have the "best" because they just are that rich (or have a higher limit on their credit card). I really hope these sell like crazy and all the other companies take notice so we all benefit.
From what I had heard it sould be this month. I expect we should be hearing something anytime now. I just need to figure out how I'm going to be able to afford one.
Steiner Optics Factory / The new T5Xi thread (-!!-Picture Heavy-!!-)
You're joking, right? Steiner rep has stated pretty clearly where the cost savings are coming from in the other thread. Go take a look at it.
You're joking, right? Steiner rep has stated pretty clearly where the cost savings are coming from in the other thread. Go take a look at it.
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What 'data' are you looking for? Is there an example you can show me? Maybe I'm showing my ignorance, but I've never seen 'resolution data' listed for a scope. Maybe Steiner Optics knows...
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"To my knowledge, Zeiss is the only scope manufacturer who gives out resolution data. The Hensoldt 3-12 has a min resolution of 3.75 arc seconds, the 4-16 and 6-24x56 have a min resolution of 3 arc seconds, and the 6-24x72 has a min resolution of 2.5 arc seconds. In contrast, the Hubble telescope has a resolution of .05 arc seconds. My understanding is that 1 arc second is about 1mm at 100m."
from one of your old posts....
This obviously isn't something standard, why are you making it sound like it is?
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from one of your old posts....
This obviously isn't something standard, why are you making it sound like it is?
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Hensold shows it's redolution data. 4-16x56 for example:
Hensoldt - CameraLand NY
Also found in their brochures.
NF will tell you what their resolution is. I read it's 2.9 arc seconds minimum.
Just wanting to know what this scope has to offer.
Hensoldt - CameraLand NY
Also found in their brochures.
NF will tell you what their resolution is. I read it's 2.9 arc seconds minimum.
Just wanting to know what this scope has to offer.
I was on page 2 of Google before I even found reference to 'resolution data' and it was YOUR post in another thread...
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Again, so what? It's listed in several places, not a secret. Why are you so defensive/evasive?
I googled "rifle scope resolution data" and the only thing that came up was another thread where you referenced it...
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