Strongest .22lr bolt action

[AZgeek]

Range Update - Initial velocity test results.

*** Reminder. This an R&D project! Loads exceed typical, safe production standards. Use with extreme caution! ***

Vit 3N37 Ladder Test:

2.2gr (1348, 1466) avg=1407 fps
2.4gr (1501, 1512) avg=1506 fps
2.6gr (1715, 1741) avg=1728 fps
2.8gr (1904 fps) * Bolt lift, stop!

TiteGroup (only one shot)

2.0gr (1794 fps) * Mild bolt lift

Bullets appear to fly straight out to 100 yards so good news on that front.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@AZgeek
Is this what you are experiencing in regards to having to polish bearing surface??

The second obstacle is the .22 LR bullet itself. The .22 caliber bullets available to handloaders are unsuitable for .22 LR because the latter utilizes a heel base bullet; that is, the rear portion of the bullet is lesser in diameter than the forward, exposed portion of the bullet so that the heel fits inside the case. The exposed portion of the bullet is the same diameter is the .22 LR case and bore, .222,” whereas .22 caliber bullets for centerfire cartridges like the .223 Rem are .224” in diameter. Using such bullets in the .22 LR would cause the case to bulge so that it could not chamber, or if it did, the bullet would be .002” oversize for the bore.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[AZgeek]

THEIS - No issues with the heel diameter and I can adjust its length to fit the need. As you surmised, the issue is with the exposed portion of the bullet. Yes, I'm about .002" over.

 

[AZgeek]

So figured this out. Got my swaging process to give me exact .2240 diameter bullets! I have a Plan B to get to .2230 if necessary. I'll load a bunch up and cycle check each one. Going to test at 2.6 & 2.7 grains of Vit 3N37. Hoping 2.7 gr. gets me over 1800 fps with no or very minimal bolt lift drag. Also going to finally sight in the rifle and shoot for groups at 50 yards with open sights at the same time. Should be able to get out Sunday morning for this next round of testing.

 

[MarinePMI]

I have never heard of a source for primed 22 RF cases.

They're available if you have the pocket book and storage space, since most companies require a minimum order (somewhere around a million IIRC, back when I was dabbling in a lot of the same things that AZGeek is messing with). I ended up getting some primed cases, but it was a major hassle (long story, and one I'm not willing to put on the internet).

 

[MarinePMI]

I liked this thread from the start.

AZ, I have a thought you might want to consider if you have not already.
I am sure not all rimfire cases are created equal. Have you considered testing for strength? I suspect some of the present Hyper velocity type rounds may be beefed up for high pressure. Stinger, Yellowjacket etc. At 1800 are you not just duplicating the Stinger round with a Sabot type bullet?
Thanks for sharing.

RTH

Ultimately, all current .22LR cases, and the related strength of the case, is limited to the brass itself. The case is the weakest link. You could draw cases to form thicker brass, but then you will have ignition issues, as the rim will be thicker, requiring more force to crush the rim for primer ignition (annealing will only get you so far). I don't recall off the top of my head the standard brass stock thickness used (I'd have to go dig through some old files), but it is pretty much the standard across the industry, regardless of manufacturer. In theory, you could draw a tapered case, but then you still have the same problem, as the rim will then be the weakest part of the case (can you say, ruptured case head?).

Stinger cases being longer get around some of this by using a slightly slower powder blend and a lighter bullet. The cases otherwise are the same thickness as the normal .22LR, and also have to meet SAAMI max pressure specs IIRC (if only for liability reasons).

 

[MarinePMI]

Hi,

@AZgeek

In terms of military applications, specifically the R&D sector for 22LR.....have you contacted the Israeli embassy and asked to speak with the Military Attache about such R&D/T&E? He can point you to the proper personnel within IDF that handles their 22LR counter-terrorism sniper program. Those guys are probably the most advanced 22LR T&E personnel in the world when it comes to "military applications".
They have a sniper "MOS" that is pretty much strictly 22LR usage

Feel free to let me know if you have any questions in regards to above.

Sincerely,
Theis

Indeed. I worked with a company that filled several custom orders of ammunition to them for very specific purposes. Pretty eye opening on some of the intended applications (sentry dog elimination comes immediately to mind, for one).

 

[MarinePMI]

They are light years ahead of all but one 3 letter group on this rock, when it comes to a 22lr an eliminating 2 legged vermin.

OP
If your looking for speed an punching ability use a 22 cal pellet pushed via a Remington A22C4, but many bolt actions will not stand that combo. The Savage 93 an Remington 541 will, but DO NOT use that combo any semi auto or any pistol at all.

Not sure about the 93, but the 541/581 will absolutely handle excess pressure of a .22LR. Same action used for the 591 (5mm Rem Mag), so it is a pretty beefy design. Thick receiver walls and a double set of lugs (6 total).

 

[AZgeek]

I can confirm from my first hand testing that the case rim is the weak link. Getting ready to re-test using the CCI Stinger brass as rth1800 suggested. My problem with the OD being too large was the result me gently tapping in of our sabot! I wanted it snug by design but had no idea until this week it was a self-inflicted problem due to the soft lead. Aggravating to say the least!

 

[abcollector]

AZ, what happened? How far did you get? Anything to bring to market yet?

 

[AZgeek]

AZ, what happened? How far did you get? Anything to bring to market yet?

Hello AB. Well lots has happened. Been side-tracked with other priorities and an ongoing legal battle with the US Army. I can't elaborate on details, but essentially they are suppressing GDS rifle technology "in the interest of national security". Gila Defense Systems (GDS) can't get patents issued because of the corrupt, slimy fucks at Picatinny Arsenal. Three years of this shit and counting. But every dog will have its day and ours is slowly approaching!

Anyway the .22lr development hit some snags due to the predicted brass constraints and a few other self-inflicted wounds on my part. I'll be starting up the development activities again in about three weeks. I'll provide an update as soon as I can. I can assure this product will be brought to market before years end.

Best Regards

AZ

 

[Mike Casselton]

@AZgeek
Have you tried using an arbor press to insert the sabot?
It would be capable of inserting the sabot without expanding the projectile and the depth is controllable and repeatable.

Get a copy of Steve Bolter's book on rimfire ammunition. He's in Vegas.
The info in there might save you a lot of headaches.

The project you are working on is very interesting.

I wonder how a 17 Mach 2 would do with 25 or 30gr bullets instead of the 17gr? It might serve a purpose in the void you are trying to fill.

 

[MarinePMI]

@AZgeek

I wonder how a 17 Mach 2 would do with 25 or 30gr bullets instead of the 17gr? It might serve a purpose in the void you are trying to fill.

The issue with this is going to be the low velocity, and then the required faster twist barrels to stabilize the bullet. This was looked at when the 17 Aguila/High Standard was being brought to market, and I'm reasonably certain Dave Emery and his crew looked at it as well for the 17M2 and HMR. Speed is what kills in these subcaliber sized rounds...

JMHO/E

 

[AZgeek]

For

@AZgeek
Have you tried using an arbor press to insert the sabot?
It would be capable of inserting the sabot without expanding the projectile and the depth is controllable and repeatable.

Get a copy of Steve Bolter's book on rimfire ammunition. He's in Vegas.
The info in there might save you a lot of headaches.

The project you are working on is very interesting.

I wonder how a 17 Mach 2 would do with 25 or 30gr bullets instead of the 17gr? It might serve a purpose in the void you are trying to fill.

No I have not but that was my self-inflicted issue. Even the slighted tapping of the sabot into the soft lead created a 20 to 30 thousand diameter expansion. Since sabot insertion was my last step, I did not realize it until late in the game. Should not be too difficult to work around now that I know the root cause of the problem. I suspect pure lead will not work in the long term for my needs. Also the initial test of Stinger brass produced much slower velocity than expected and increased the COAL by more than I'd like.

 

[EXSOCAL]

Aguila has their Super Maximum .22 LR ammo that claims to hit 1,700 fps with a 30 grain bullet. I've shot a few hundred through a 10/22 but never confirmed the velocity. You can definitely feel the difference between that stuff and CCI std. velocity.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

http://marksmanship.org/Sales/kimber82desc.htm

 

[AZgeek]

Late but positive update:

With all the technical and loading issues resolved, we have now produced our base prototypes. We ended up with two - one is solid copper 26 gr., the other a lead alloy at 32.5 gr. :

The velocities are now very consistent with the lead alloy averaging 1750 fps, the copper slightly faster averaging about 1766 fps. Our initial penetration testing is complete. The 2x4 test resulted in the lead ally going through 1.5 boards with the copper smoking through both and into about 3/8" of the plywood backstop! We need to document the board testing but I have one picture of early lead alloy penetration:

The wood used is hard, dry pine that's been laying around for years. I expect better penetration with final loads and with the introduction of our proprietary bullet coatings. The attached video demonstrates the rounds capabilities against soft body armor and packed clay.



As with all GDS pistol round technology, the 22lr versions render all soft body armor obsolete. In addition to the video, I have tested these rounds against several brands of level 3A vests with both hard and soft support backing. No match for our product! Next step in the development process will be long range accuracy testing. Based on 5 round tests at 50 yards, there does not appear to be any stabilization issues but I want to test out to 100 yards with a scope on my test rifle to confirm that.

Enjoy!

 

[Frankr]

Holy crap that’s awesome.

Any chance of shooting a 17hmr side by side to explosive comparisons?

I assume this stuff is still loaded hot and needs a strong action to use it?

 

[AZgeek]

Holy crap that’s awesome.

Any chance of shooting a 17hmr side by side to explosive comparisons?

I assume this stuff is still loaded hot and needs a strong action to use it?

Don't own a 17hmr so not possible at this time.

Nope. No special action required. I initially thought that would be the case, thus the reason for my original inquiry and this thread . Testing is being done out of a Savage B series 22lr. Also took a few shots out of my son's Sig 1911 semi auto pistol. No issues. The original high pressure brass problems were self-induced per the commentary earlier in this thread. I think we are approaching 38 special energy out of a 22 lr. Gotta love it!

 

[flyer]

Does it need a rifle length barrel to get the fist sized hole effect?

I was thinking of getting some class III plastic armor plates. Does your stuff really penetrate?

 

[AZgeek]

Does it need a rifle length barrel to get the fist sized hole effect?

I was thinking of getting some class III plastic armor plates. Does your stuff really penetrate?

No it does not. The soft target trauma/energy release is a hallmark capability of this technology. Send me one of those plate. Be happy to put a hole in it!

 

[Frankr]

In a 10-22 or cz455 this would be killer small game round.

So..... have you shot any jack rabbits or coyotes yet


When are you going to start the accuracy testing?

What’s the effective range of this round?

 

[AZgeek]

In a 10-22 or cz455 this would be killer small game round.

So..... have you shot any jack rabbits or coyotes yet


When are you going to start the accuracy testing?

What’s the effective range of this round?

No critter kills to-date as we just finished up the prototypes this past week. Hope to get an initial accuracy testing cycle done on the Lead alloy version by 9/9. As a human self-defense round, I'm guessing 50 yards. As a hunting round, I really have no idea. Unless they fly straight at distance its not really going to matter as they would not be marketable for hunting purposes. I can however tell you it get out to 100 yards pretty quick!

I have no accuracy goals defined yet. Can you guys help with that? MOA at 50 and 100 yards would seem reasonable but interested in everyone's thoughts. Keep in mind that these are still hand-made and not production ready so lower your exceptions in the accuracy department.

 

[Frankr]

With the effectiveness of the round, I would settle for federal bulk accuracy.

Realistically MOA would be more than enough

 

[AZgeek]

I'm thinking the pork shoulder roast test is in order for next weekend. Plus I can clean and eat it right after that!

 

[W54/XM-388]

How soon do you think you'll be selling some of your loaded ammunition for those of us that would be interested in having a bit of fun testing it out?

 

[AZgeek]

Hard to say. Hopefully my partner in crime will chime in and provide an answer. He's not yet a Hide member. What a looser!

 

[t8500shx]

Following, very impressive video.

 

[Rolltide]

That video is impressive! Seems like it would make for a bad day for a coyote!

 

[AZgeek]

So looks like I'm on track to do accuracy and pork shoulder testing this weekend. The questions was asked about when this might be available for sale. My biggest challenge by far is finding a source for virgin 22 lr brass. Does anyone have manufacturing contacts that can help in this regard? Otherwise I have to start cold calling and go that route!

Really appreciate any help that can be provided.

AZ

 

[DAMNKID]

So looks like I'm on track to do accuracy and pork shoulder testing this weekend.

I can smell the bacon,Looks like it’s gonna be a great pig/varmit round and then some! Awesome work AZ

 

[MarinePMI]

So looks like I'm on track to do accuracy and pork shoulder testing this weekend. The questions was asked about when this might be available for sale. My biggest challenge by far is finding a source for virgin 22 lr brass. Does anyone have manufacturing contacts that can help in this regard? Otherwise I have to start cold calling and go that route!

Really appreciate any help that can be provided.

AZ

How big a lot are you willing to buy?

 

[AZgeek]

How big a lot are you willing to buy?

Initially 10k pieces just to start up. We are also looking for a long term supplier. Quite frankly I would like to farm out the entire manufacturing process once we land a govt/military contract.

 

[pmclaine]

If the original question was still relevant I would have suggested a Springfield M2.

Its a .22 using a 30-06 action.

The bolt would be the weekness in its two piece form, mill a solid one.

 

[AZgeek]

If the original question was still relevant I would have suggested a Springfield M2.

Its a .22 using a 30-06 action.

The bolt would be the weekness in its two piece form, mill a solid one.

Holy crap! I think pmclaine may have identified the winner here. Free box of our 22lr coming your way if we ever get this commercialized.

 

[pmclaine]

Holy crap! I think pmclaine may have identified the winner here. Free box of our 22lr coming your way if we ever get this commercialized.

Ill be looking for that ammo and will be proud of my meager role in your great success.

Truth be told I think @rth1800 is correct that any ordnance steel bolt action should hold about any pressure that will maintain a .22 brass shell.

Id avoid an aluminum 10/22 for testing but when you finalize your product if you want sales it should be safe to shoot in that most popular .22 rifle.

 

[AZgeek]

Ill be looking for that ammo and will be proud of my meager role in your great success.

Truth be told I think @rth1800 is correct that any ordnance steel bolt action should hold about any pressure that will maintain a .22 brass shell.

Id avoid an aluminum 10/22 for testing but when you finalize your product if you want sales it should be safe to shoot in that most popular .22 rifle.

Ok so a box to rth1800 as well. Going broke already! Totally agree with your safety testing commentary. I chose not to use my 10/22 for that very reason. Once I get proper lubrication on the lead rounds, I'll move on to testing through my 10/22 and Sig 1911 pistol. Clearly modern semi auto testing is a must.

 

[MarinePMI]

Vudoo action?

 

[flyer]

A friend of mine had a Mauser training rifle in .22

I don't think it can get much stronger than that except I think I remember something about a .22 sub caliber insert for a M2 machine gun.

There are shotgun inserts too and I think I remember seeing someone that built a double rifle that took 10 gauge brass shells with bullets and enough pressure to get to 2,000+ fps. That combo would be really strong too.

Can I get free ammo?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@AZgeek
You could try to see if Hunting Shack Munitions can pass you along to appropriate person at Aguila that they use to get their primed 22lr brass from. I do not think they have carried it since around 2010 but they use to sell it under "reloading components" back then.
They use to sell it in 5k quantity packs.
CCI will sell you primed brass but you will have to put some more 0's behind your desired quantity

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[AZgeek]

I guess I should have used the word "modern" in my original question. So we don't have a winner? You guys tell me. As you can see I'm clearly no expert. If we include C&R, would it be fair to assume a Springfield or Mauser based action is king? I mean pmclaine's recommendation seems like the clear winner.

Theis - Thanks for that info. I'll follow up with them in morning.

Had the day off today. Was supposed to be cleaning up around the house but spent most of the day dicking around with 22lr bullet swaging. I've come to the conclusion I need a "real" swaging press to get the consistency and material flows required for true quality and repeatably. The proof-of-concept stage is essentially over. Also spent time looking at costs to do this. I'm depressed is all i can say......

 

[RAVAGE88]

I guess I should have used the word "modern" in my original question.

AzGeek,
How can I help?

MB

 

[THEIS]

Also spent time looking at costs to do this. I'm depressed is all i can say......

Hi,

Well be sure to follow the normal rule of thumb and double whatever cost you came up with....I feel your pain!

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Tucker301]

I'd be interested to see the same clay shot with the CCI Stinger.
You're only about 6 percent faster than that on MV. My guess is that the impact energy is driving a plug of clay (sticky to itself) out the back side and making the impressive hole. muscle and tissue will be less dramatic.
The pork shoulder should be interesting.

 

[rancilio]

I'd be interested to see the same clay shot with the CCI Stinger.
You're only about 6 percent faster than that on MV.

And compared to CCI 925CC Copper-22 HP 21gr. CCI says 1850fps.

 

[AZgeek]

And compared to CCI 925CC Copper-22 HP 21gr. CCI says 1850fps.

This stuff is absolute crap. Its not solid copper but a compressed copper powder. It more like a fragmentation round based on my testing with it. I now have Stingers laying around. With the previous velocity testing of the CCI stuff disappointing, never gave it a thought to use it again. These results are from a post on page one for reference:

Federal Premium HV - Published 1200 fps - Measured 1220 fps
CCI Velocitor - Published 1435 fps - Measured 1375 fps
CCI Copper 22 - Published 1850 fps - Measured 1386 fps
CCI Mini Mag - Published 1235 fps - Measured 1225 fps

Not sure when we will be filming and shooting clay again but I can certainly do a velocity test with it on Friday when I do the accuracy shooting. Really don't want two pork roasts but could use the Stinger as the round for a pork base-line. We'll see.

Clay is just a simple, cheap way to get an idea of a rounds perpetration capability. Even ballistic gels vary in density and composition. Clay is by no means an industry standard used for testing.

 

[THEIS]

Even ballistic gels vary in density and composition.

Hi,

That is correct only if you are using non standardized gelatin. The FBI has a standard that is and has been in place for ballistics testing for years now.

Below is an excerpt of the standard:
The test media used by the FBI to simulate living tissue is 10% Ballistic Gelatin (Kind & Knox 250-A), mixed by weight (i.e., one pound of gelatin to 9 pounds of water). The gelatin is stored at 4° Centigrade (39.2° Fahrenheit) and shot within 20 minutes of being removed from the refrigerator. The temperature of the gelatin is critical, because penetration changes significantly with temperature. This specific gelatin mix was determined and calibrated by the U.S. Army Wound Ballistics Research Laboratory, Presidio of San Francisco, to produce the same penetration results as that obtained in actual living tissue. The 10 % gelatin has been correlated against the actual results of over 200 shooting incidents. Each gelatin block is calibrated before use to insure its composition is within defined parameters. Copies of the test protocol are available upon request for those interested in duplication the testing or reviewing the procedures in greater detail.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Frankr]

Any updates?

 

[AZgeek]

Yes sorry for the delays. I had some very inconsistent results. I had rounds that created perfect wad cutter holes in paper, others with just slight keying and still others totally key-holed. Of the 30 rounds tested, about 40% flew perfectly straight. I don't know what's going on here and will not have time to work on this any more for a few weeks. So much for completion of the proof-of-concept phase! Saving grace was the pork shoulder roast. It was tasty.

 

[MarinePMI]

Sounds like a barrel twist that is too slow, or right on the edge of stability. I saw the same thing when testing ,17 Aguila years ago. Upped the velocity a little and it extended the range a bit before the accuracy/stability issue became non-linear. How long are your bullets?