Fair. Within nerdy firearms communities like long range precision or ballistics talk, I tend to revert.P.S. @PappyM3 , when you are talking to humans outside of your very niche work environment (and believe me, it is niche), you might want to refrain from using the phrase “trade space” and “trade space ideation”?
Unless you either a) want to confuse a regular person, or b) sound dorky af.
I read a lot, and that’s a new term for me.
Apparently the term is popular in NASA and defense industries? It sounds achingly close to corporate buzzword bullshit (even if it is not).
Even the author of this Wikipedia article failed to cut to the chase and use plain language:
Tradespace - Wikipedia
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Subsonic hunting
- Thread starter snowplow
- Start date
Yeah, you’re kinda all over the place with your hunting rifle. First it’s a 300y MPBR, now it’s subsonics. These are mutually exclusive.Anyone have thoughts on the 360 buckhammer? (Other than the name is rad)
I know it's a rimmed cartridge but they make it in a single shot and lever of course. So it's closer to a bolt than an auto
The buckhammer case is based on the 30-30 case. That cartridge’s trajectory is already a rainbow. Making the bullet fatter and heavier isn’t going to give it a flatter trajectory. I’d postulate that it occupies the same “space” as the 30-30, but legal where straight walled cartridges are mandated for hunting.
BC does not matter as much subsonic as it does supersonic. Subsonic flight there is very little practical difference between round nose and spitzer bullets. What is required is momentum. Heavier is better.
OK. Hears my reasoning. I won't 1st round hit/ kil/dead fucking right fucking there/no blood trail/ does this exist? Keep coming back to the 45/70 idea. 500 grain + bullet soft lead.NOT Hardcast. If you live in one of the communist states where you can't have a can, please do not reply.
How well does it perform out to 100 yds on game? That's the idea I have been thinking for a while.
The key to effective subsonic performance is frontal area. This can be obtained either from expansion of a very soft bullet, or larger caliber. Or even better a larger caliber AND expansion.
Without hydrostatic shock, terminal effects rely on the making as large a hole as possible, very similar to archery hunting.
I have both a 300 BLK and 450 BM - without question I would opt for the 450 BM with the 395 Sub X if I were to choose the most effective combo with an easily available projectile.
Without hydrostatic shock, terminal effects rely on the making as large a hole as possible, very similar to archery hunting.
I have both a 300 BLK and 450 BM - without question I would opt for the 450 BM with the 395 Sub X if I were to choose the most effective combo with an easily available projectile.
I'm curious what you guys think of the 35ish calibers. They shoot out of a 9mm can presumably and have some good expanding bullets. Are they anywhere near 45-70 sub performance?
That is why l asked about the buck hammer. Being a straight wall that indexes off the rim, can't you shorten the cartridge or lengthen the bullet to your hearts content in a single shot?
That is why l asked about the buck hammer. Being a straight wall that indexes off the rim, can't you shorten the cartridge or lengthen the bullet to your hearts content in a single shot?
If you are limiting velocity to below the sound barrier, as the saying goes; “there is no replacement for displacement.”
Kinetic energy is a function of velocity and mass, as is momentum. Both scale linearly with an increase in mass (~ weight). Given a fixed velocity, a 400 grain 45 cal bullet will have 33% more KE and momentum than a 300 grain 35 cal bullet. Equivalent weight bullets will perform more or less equivalently from either cartridge at a fixed speed (with the caveat that a larger diameter hole is better than a smaller one, favoring the fatter bullet.)
The situation reversed when speaking about supersonic cartridges, as kinetic energy scales as the square of the velocity. Smaller diameter bullets can (generally) be pushed fast enough to overcome their heavy but slow compatriots. As Ralph Nader said “Speed kills.” (KE isn’t the end all be all answer to the equation, but it is an important component.)
No, you really can’t lengthen and shorten the case “to your heart’s content.” A good analogy would be 38 special and 357 magnum fired from a 357 mag lever gun. Yes, to some extent you can fire them interchangeably. But, a steady diet of 38 special cartridges will eventually foul the chamber ahead of the case mouth and prevent the chambering of the longer 357 magnum cartridges.
And, you can’t chamber a 357 magnum cartridge in a 38 special chamber; even though they both head space on the rim, and one is just a shorter version of the other. The longer cartridge will (likely) jam the bullet into the lands of the rifle; because the chamber is cut short for 38 special. And, that is before taking into consideration the difference on operating pressure of the 2 cartridges.
I have only shot 1 doe so far with the 500 gr on the left. 70 yard shot. She went maybe 20 yards. Lung shot, but I didn’t study the damage inside
The 500 gr has a .25” meplat. I have another mold on the way to try. 540 gr with a .368” meplat. Should be even more effective.
I agree with this line of thinking. At subsonic levels, the only real tissue damage is going to be whatever makes physical contact with the projectile itself, or maybe a pubic hair more. I'd want the largest diameter and frontal area possible if I were going to hunt this way...but I'm also in an environment where you can be 10 feet from a downed deer and not see it due to the fantastic greenbriars, blackberry bushes, and whatever else can be grown that has stickers. I understand that a subsonic FMJ through the vitals will kill. I just don't want to have to track any further than I have to.
Of course, you can kill game with just about anything. I have an 'heirloom' .22LR (old Stevens) from the in-law's family that has "DEER" and then 8 notches cut in the underside of the forearm.
The 45-70 will for sure get the job done within a reasonable range.
There are plenty of videos out there of people pushing the extreme with subs ... I'm not saying I recommend this or that it's "ethical".
Assuming these people aren't faking their results it's just a demonstration of what's "possible" ... not withstanding they may have edited out a lot of failed shots.
Kind of. 100% a large frontal area should be a focus of subsonic bullets for terminal performance.
But it is possible to have enough energy in a subsonic projectile that its temporary stretch exceeds the elastic limit of the tissue, and causes damage beyond the crush path of the bullet itself. But it does require a lot of mass and a big meplat/expansion. Most subsonic bullets cannot overcome most tissues’ elastic limit. It does also depend a lot on the tissue that’s hit. The type of tissue will affect its elasticity, but so will an animal’s age/collagen.
It is much easier to overcome tissue elastic limit with supersonic bullets because velocity has an exponential influence on kinetic energy compared to mass’ linear influence.
* all this is dependent on transferring the energy to the tissue. It doesn’t matter if you have a 4,000 fps bullet if it ice picks straight through.
soft lead is NOT where it is at.....unless you want to be cleaning the lead out of your barrel and can. there is no advantage you imagine you'd have by using soft lead.
get a bullet that is hard cast with the biggest meplat you can. you don't need expansion....you are already going to have a .458 diameter hole....perhaps even more. see, that big meplat acts like a snowplow and blows tissue and bone out. hole in, hole out equates to a quick kill and rapid blood loss.
cast bullets are something unique.....don't use your jacketed bullet logic and try to apply it. and lose the soft lead idea. unless you are talking muzzleloaders....that is the one application soft lead is used. and truth be told...if i could use hardcast in them, i would.
Would the hi tec polymer coating make a difference?. Many years ago took a large doe with an old school Hawkins 54 cal black powder muzel loader. Quartering away 100 yrd shot. Absolutely devastatingly spectacular performance. Big hole going in and bigger hole coming out.
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