Super Un-Snipery Project-Wm Moore 10 ga Hammer Double.

[buffalowinter]

Picked up this Wm Moore 10ga side by side hammer, side lever 10 gauge. It is marked "Wm Moore & Co Fine London Twist". Wm Moore was a London Gunmaker.

William Moore & Grey, traces its origins back to 1808, when William Moore, who worked for Joseph Manton, was recorded to be in business in London. Today, we are proud to produce bespoke luxury guns for distinguished individualists from all over the world. We stick strictly to a by-appointment-only policy.

I got this gun for $236 at auction. I'm not sure if it's an original Wm Moore or a Belgian Copy. As an esteemed gunmaker, Wm Moore was copied extensively. Some evidence points to it being original...correct side lever, some engraving, fore-end inlay (missing). Some proof marks, but not as many as you might expect...on the other hand, copiers went out of their way to duplicate proofs. Anyway, the gun is in exceedingly rough condition. Every inch is covered in paint with upper and lower ribs separating, broken tang with poor attempt at drilling a new tang hole further up the tang, and the stock is broken at the wrist. The brrel has extensive outer pitting, with some pitting in bore, but I've seen and shot worse. So, my to do list:

Remove paint and rust, clean, and polish
Re-weld tang and drill new screw hole
Cut unusable portion of barrel and re-solder ribs
Repair and refinish stock
Rust blue
Install front bead

The subject:

 

[buffalowinter]

Day 2
Total disassembly followed by soaking in Evaporust, then paint stripper, then cleaned with soap and water. Barrels cut to 19" and top rib re-soldered.

Broken stock

Stock stripped. Fairly sound shape

Barrel cleaned

Barrles cut

Missing ebony inlay

Fore-end

Separated ribs

Top rib done, waiting for clean-up.

 

[camocorvette]

Can't wait to see more. Looks good. The history is neat. Wonder if you will be able to figure out if it's legit or a copy?

 

[308pirate]

These people might be able to help

William Moore & Grey - shotguns, rifles and pistols

William Moore & Grey stands for exceptional shotguns, rifles and pistols, respecting our tradition and legacy.

www.wmg-london.com

Contact us​

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If you have an enquiry, please contact us using the following email address​

[email protected]​

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Pretty sure you have an original there. The Belgian copied things a lot but they didn’t put London addresses on them. And the engraving, while not extensive, is pretty nicely done.

It’s been rode hard and put away wet. Its whole life. But since I have a hunch you want to use it as a cowboy shooting coach gun it will fit the role absolutely perfectly.

If I were to guess it’s a back action that was sort of at the bottom of Moore’s lineup. And not as London best. But still a tier 1 London gun.

It seems like all the great makers trace their lineage to having apprenticed for Manton. Very cool.

Cheers

 

[Ranchhand]

Neat project, can't wait to see the end result.

 

[308pirate]

@buffalowinter how long are the barrels after you cut them?

I wonder if you would consider sending it back to Wm Moore (or at least enquiring about it) for a new set of barrels equal to the originals.

 

[buffalowinter]

@buffalowinter how long are the barrels after you cut them?

I wonder if you would consider sending it back to Wm Moore (or at least enquiring about it) for a new set of barrels equal to the originals.

I cut at 19" so I wouldn't have too much soldering on ribs. As it is, I'm still soldering about 6". Sending the barrel back to Wm Moore would be a giant pain, incredibly long turn around, and no doubt cost in excess of 2k. I'd rather have a Wm Moore coach gun and enjoy the challenge of making something out of pretty much nothing. Plus, I might re-sell, so profit wise getting new barrels doesn't work.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I cut at 19" so I wouldn't have too much soldering on ribs. As it is, I'm still soldering about 6". Sending the barrel back to Wm Moore would be a giant pain, incredibly long turn around, and no doubt cost in excess of ***$30k. *** I'd rather have a Wm Moore coach gun and enjoy the challenge of making something out of pretty much nothing. Plus, I might re-sell, so profit wise getting new barrels doesn't work.

FIFY. $2K wouldn't get you a new horn buttplate ;-) Ah ha hahhaa.....

Barrel making in the UK us utterly insane. A new set of barrels for a Purdey or Boss runs about $60K. Restock is about $20K. You'll wait 2 years for either.

Sleeving is much cheaper, but definitely lowers the value of the gun. By more than half, most of the time.

English shotguns are not to be approached on a budget, that's for sure!

BW has the perfect plan for that Moore! And as a hammer gun, even in perfect condition AND a high grade gun, it wouldn't make much more than about $3 - 4K. This one will live on as a cowboy gun!

I have a pretty complete set of Double Gun Journal. I'll see what I can dig up on Moore for you.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[buffalowinter]

FIFY. $2K wouldn't get you a new horn buttplate ;-) Ah ha hahhaa.....

Barrel making in the UK us utterly insane. A new set of barrels for a Purdey or Boss runs about $60K. Restock is about $20K. You'll wait 2 years for either.

Sleeving is much cheaper, but definitely lowers the value of the gun. By more than half, most of the time.

English shotguns are not to be approached on a budget, that's for sure!

BW has the perfect plan for that Moore! And as a hammer gun, even in perfect condition AND a high grade gun, it wouldn't make much more than about $3 - 4K. This one will live on as a cowboy gun!

I have a pretty complete set of Double Gun Journal. I'll see what I can dig up on Moore for you.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Yes, I meant 2k for shipping....yeah , that's what I meant.

 

[buffalowinter]

Ribs back together.
Lower rib...much better job than the top rib...I'm proud of this one. The bottom rib had separated about 8 inches.

 

[buffalowinter]

 

[sirhrmechanic]

As far as you have cut that back, you should be able to draw file those barrels dead smooth. Those pits aren't those deep.

Great job!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[buffalowinter]

As far as you have cut that back, you should be able to draw file those barrels dead smooth. Those pits aren't those deep.

Great job!

Cheers,

Sirhr

My biggest concern is the quality of the steel for rust bluing. I once rust blued a Spanish copy of a Merwin and Hulbert and the steel turned out a dark flat black. On the other hand, I rust blued this rolling block I built... modern barrel... and it came out fantastic.

 

[308pirate]

My biggest concern is the quality of the steel for rust bluing.

If those are real Wm Moore barrels, shouldn't you be good to go? I mean, isn't rust bluing how pretty much all brit shotguns were made, even Birmingham stuff?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

If those are real Wm Moore barrels, shouldn't you be good to go? I mean, isn't rust bluing how pretty much all brit shotguns were made, even Birmingham stuff?

Probably won't be a problem. Why not test the 'cut-off' section?

Birmingham 'stuff' could easily be the equal of London. And lots of innovation came out of Birmingham. A Birmingham Best didn't have the London address. But are fine, fine fine shotguns!

 

[buffalowinter]

If those are real Wm Moore barrels, shouldn't you be good to go? I mean, isn't rust bluing how pretty much all brit shotguns were made, even Birmingham stuff?

Yes, and rust bluing was necessary because hot bluing melted the solder on the ribs. But the age of the steel and 100 years of oiling, who knows what we'll get. We'll see.

 

[308pirate]

Yes, and rust bluing was necessary because hot bluing melted the solder on the ribs. But the age of the steel and 100 years of oiling, who knows what we'll get. We'll see.

Good points. I know less than nothing about these issues.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Yes, and rust bluing was necessary because hot bluing melted the solder on the ribs. But the age of the steel and 100 years of oiling, who knows what we'll get. We'll see.

So what do the proofsmarks show? Are they fluid steel? Twist/Damascus? Cast steel (which can be problematic.) Not sure the year of it. Was it nitro or BP Proofed (betting the latter.)

Also, if it is post 1873, it should be marked William (Wm.) Moore and Gray. There are no records pre-1873, apparently.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[buffalowinter]

So what do the proofsmarks show? Are they fluid steel? Twist/Damascus? Cast steel (which can be problematic.) Not sure the year of it. Was it nitro or BP Proofed (betting the latter.)

Also, if it is post 1873, it should be marked William (Wm.) Moore and Gray. There are no records pre-1873, apparently.

Cheers,

Sirhr

It's an early gun, no "Grey" marking. The proof marks are one of my concerns. What do you think? Some of the Begian guns actually sent the barrels to England to be proofed or simply forged the proof marks, so validating proof marks as proof of maufacture is iffy at best. I know some Belgian guns are marked Wm Moore and Sons, whereas this is marked Wm Moore and Co. The engraving is well done. The locks look well done.
Barrel proofs. Fine Twist barrels. I think the Belgian copies all had steel barrels as Wm Moore had not become famous enough with the early Damascus guns to be copied yet.

Action proofs

Upper rib markings

Lock markings and engraving

Even some of the screw heads still show engraving

Then there is this bit of info I found on a blog site. I have not done further esearch to confirm its validity, but it sounds right.

First we need to determine which William Moore & Company gun we are talking about. There are two and maybe three makers that used that name, two English and one Belgian. They are William Moore & Co and English maker from 1854 to 1872 and William & Grey Moore another English maker from 1873 to 1931 and the name was used by Henri Pieper on Belgian made "Trade Brand Name" shotguns. The name ,William Moore & Co was also used by Crescent Fire Arms Company of Norwich,CT on guns they made for and sold by H & D Folsom of New York City. To make the determination, look at the bottom of the barrels under the forearm. English made guns will have crossed scepters or halberds (spear battle axe) with a crown over that and letters in the intersections. Belgian made guns will have the letters "ELG" in an oval with a crown over that while an American made gun will not have any proof marks. I can't see any proof marks in the photographs.

I now believe this is a true early Wm Moore gun.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

It's an early gun, no "Grey" marking. The proof marks are one of my concerns. What do you think? Some of the Begian guns actually sent the barrels to England to be proofed or simply forged the proof marks, so validating proof marks as proof of maufacture is iffy at best. I know some Belgian guns are marked Wm Moore and Sons, whereas this is marked Wm Moore and Co. The engraving is well done. The locks look well done.
Barrel proofsView attachment 7866474View attachment 7866475View attachment 7866476

Action proofsView attachment 7866477

Upper rib markingsView attachment 7866478View attachment 7866479

Lock markings and engraving
View attachment 7866480View attachment 7866481View attachment 7866482

Even some of the screw heads still show engravingView attachment 7866483

Now I see the markings... Fine London Twist. Wm. Moore & Co.

That makes it a London (aka Real pre-1873) gun for sure. Moore and CO. And Moore & Grey were the 'real McCoys' and that cut engraving is too good to be a ripoff.

Moore & Sons was the Belgian company. Essentially ripping off Moore and Co.

There was also an American 'version' by Crescent. But that would be marked Norwich, CT. Lots of ripoffs in those days.

London proofs would only be on a Belgian gun if it was sold in/imported into England. Which I am sure happened. Ghillies and gamekeepers and farmers didn't get London Best guns. So the Belgians had a fine habit of 'closely' naming guns with names that sounded like Best guns. Charles Barker & Co. comes to mind. As does L.E. Smith. Lots sold through hardware stores and catalogs like Sears and Penny's. Even today, if you import a Remington into England (because you are a heathen) they will make you proof it. Rifles, pistols... they all had to survive the proof house. Even today. If it's going to be sold... it's going to be proofed.

Here is some info https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/w-moore-shotgun.270619/

If you finish that barrel right, you should be able to make the twist really pop. I wouldn't do just a 'cold blue.' I'd find the proper formula for bringing out the twist. It's no harder than cold bluing. And they look sooooooo good when they 'pop.'

There are some good ProofMark interpretation tools out there on the Interwebz. But beware, some stamps look a lot alike. Like BP Vs. Nitro proofing. Properly restored, that gun will fire fine!

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Spurious Guns - 1

While we have dwelled on the manufacturing process and cost of manufacture of firearms, there is another interesting related topic that we w...

firearmshistory.blogspot.com

Pretty good set of articles here.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Son of Dorn]

To my eye, those do look like the Birmingham proof marks of the crossed halberds/crown/V and the crown/BP below it. I'm inclined to agree with it being an authentic English-made gun. But I admit I'm no expert.

Neat project, though. You've rekindled my desire for an English 10-bore hammergun.

 

[buffalowinter]

Making the "Ebony" insert. I have ebony and am perfectly capable of making a real Ebony or Buffalo horn insert but black acraglass is way easier and the only way to tell the difference is to heat a needle and stick it in the insert. Plastic melts and horn or wood burns. If it's horn it smells just like when you get your teeth drilled.

Re-setting the silver plate



Fixing the stock.

im hardly an expert in these things.....but the quality of these engravings would really make me question the authenticity....

View attachment 7866507
View attachment 7866508


i mean, ive seen better quality work on cheap Baikals

I think the engraving is appropriate to an early (pre-1834) gun. You really can't compare laser engraving to nearly 200 year old hand cut checkering. Comparing the engraving on known Wm Moore guns to my gun appears consistent.

Original screw on left, my screw on right.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

im hardly an expert in these things.....but the quality of these engravings would really make me question the authenticity....

View attachment 7866507
View attachment 7866508


i mean, ive seen better quality work on cheap Baikals

It fits for early guns. And I think there is a good case to be made that this is a caplock conversion. It was done a lot in the day as it was 'cheaper' to reuse barrels, fit a Patent Action and re-stock. New gun was L100. Restock and new action was L60. Back then that was 3 years workingman's salary.

So... my guess is that this gun is probably original, but came from a period before the real 'rose and scroll' engraving started to come into fashion which was the early 1870s. By then they were Moore and Gray.

If it was a much earlier (1840's to 1850's) gun it could be a lot plainer and more 'crude' by later standards. And a BP gun converted would have been so much earlier that the engraving would have been rather primitive.

The big question is going to be in the proof marks. If the proofs are Belgian... tough to call it London. And even the Belgians didn't fake London proof marks. That said, I have seen a couple of 'fakes' as I am looking into this one. That are Wm. Moore and Co. on the back locks. But really crude. And look like post-1900 cheapies. And are Belgian proofed.

The quality of the lettering is what makes me think it's correct. That is damn fine lettering chiseling. And the 'art' is crude. But pre-1850 it would be acceptable.

Here is a shotgun of mine that was made in 1855. Muzzle-loader converted in 1870's. They went all out! But look how crude the rose and scroll is compared to the fine 'later' work of the 1890's that BW references.

The Brits were 'eccentric' in their ways. Americans would buy a new 'latest model' shotgun. The Brits would upgrade an old one until it was new... and spend almost as much. They were attached, I guess.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[packratt]

Don't know about the blue but you got the rust part down

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Here’s what he beautifully finished Damascus Barrel looks like.

First one is actually an eight bore that Buffalo Winter used to own. The second one is a P grade Parker with a Turnbull Barrel restoration on it. Absolutely stunning examples of properly etched and browned twist.

I think that Moore deserves the same treatment because you’ll be The belle of the Cowboys shoot with them there pimp barrels!

Besides it’s a challenge.

And we know Buffalo Winter can’t back down from a restoration challenge.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

And lest anyone think I’m challenging him, I’m not. It’s the gun that’s challenging him. That’s how it is in restoration. It’s you against the project and nobody else. Cheers

 

[buffalowinter]

Br

And lest anyone think I’m challenging him, I’m not. It’s the gun that’s challenging him. That’s how it is in restoration. It’s you against the project and nobody else. Cheers

Browning might be the way to go. I'm going to test the rust blue on some small parts like the buttplate and trigger guard. I'm going to fire blue the screws.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Br

Browning might be the way to go. I'm going to test the rust blue on some small parts like to buttplate and trigger guard. I'm going to fire blu the screws.

Plus that section of barrel you cut off is the perfect test bed to draw file sand polish. I’m sure there are some good recipes for bringing out the Damascus pattern. I’m betting it uses the same acid that you use to make a meteorite slice pop! You can buy that acid solution on eBay for cheap. I know because I sliced a meteorite once!

 

[buffalowinter]

Plus that section of barrel you cut off is the perfect test bed to draw file sand polish. I’m sure there are some good recipes for bringing out the Damascus pattern. I’m betting it uses the same acid that you use to make a meteorite slice pop! You can buy that acid solution on eBay for cheap. I know because I sliced a meteorite once!

Yeah, I remember hearing about that

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Yeah, I remember hearing about that

Sterno Got me through it…

 

[buffalowinter]

Sterno Got me through it…

Agree. I like to keep my Blood Alcohol level at a constant .30...Covid/Omicron doesn't stand a chance.

 

[6.5SH]

Do both of you gentlemen have pink shirt tails from "squeeze"? Would have to be vintage Sterno though.

 

[DIBBS]

@buffalowinter after reading your post and looking at your project, it inspired me to dig a dust collector that I inherited out of the corner and compare. I believe that it is similar in vintage to your project sxs. I also have some "parts" in a drawer that are similar to your triggers but a different manufacturer. Neat stuff!
F Williams Shotgun is missing one of the hammers I believe...
Parts from other firearms also shown...

Hope you don't mind the intrusion/ slight derail?

 

[pmclaine]

Just shoot it!

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Hey @buffalowinter, I finally pried open my wallet and got an index for my Double Gun Journal Collection. I have the Wm. Moore articles if you are still interested…

Sirhr

 

[ZG47A]

Hey @buffalowinter, I finally pried open my wallet and got an index for my Double Gun Journal Collection. I have the Wm. Moore articles if you are still interested…

Sirhr

Did those gorse scratches draw much blood?