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Surgeon Action
- Thread starter Semperriddle
- Start date
Again, actions are simple things.
Find one that fits and feeds your cartridge, fits your budget, is built square and stiff and is long term reliable. Get the features you want, fits the stock or chasiss you prefer. Get one with enough history of positive CS and an ongoing parts supply. Get one with tolorences that suit your needs and uses. Some are too tight for rough use.
Ignore the name and drive on.
For me that is often a Surgeon.
Find one that fits and feeds your cartridge, fits your budget, is built square and stiff and is long term reliable. Get the features you want, fits the stock or chasiss you prefer. Get one with enough history of positive CS and an ongoing parts supply. Get one with tolorences that suit your needs and uses. Some are too tight for rough use.
Ignore the name and drive on.
For me that is often a Surgeon.
I seem to recall lots of major matches won last year with Surgeon actions. This year, not so much.
Just goes to show you what sponsorship management (or mismanagement) will do.
The point was that despite perceived deprecation of the design, the action is still competitive.
I think the prevailing sentiment is not that Surgeon actions are bad. It's just Impact innovated while Surgeon stood still and as a result, are BETTER actions these days. That doesn't mean the Surgeon is bad, it can be good vs great.
I'm sure @Terry Cross can expound on that question. My elementary understanding of it is that Impact actions are held to such tight tolerances that you can get a barrel for your action without the gunsmith ever seeing the action. Also Impact reportedly has some of the best bolt timing around these days.
It's not that anything is missing. Surgeons have excellent features. I still have some in my personal collection. Below are some key features of the Impact action.
1. Impact receivers are held individually to a tolerance that allows properly headspaced, indexed barrels to be built without an action in hand. Since these tolerances are held on the individual parts, a rifle can be changed by the end user to a different family of cartridge by buying a barrel, bolt, and magazine for an existing rifle. For instance, a 6.5 creedmoor could be converted to a .223 or 6.5 PRC by simply replacing these 3 parts.
2. Our trigger hanger allows not only perfect timing with various triggers but much easier trigger removal and replacement in the field.
3. Primary extraction geometry to maximize mechanical advantage while providing plenty of primary extraction distance to counteract problems normally caused by dirty chambers, minimal taper cartridges, etc.
4. Cocking geometry to combine ease of bolt manipulation with proper stored energy.
5. Receiver design does not to rely upon the trigger frame to align cocking piece.
6. Magazine aperture is designed to optimize feeding from detachable magazines.
7. Material selection, surface finish, and Nitride coating selected to maximize smoothness and resistance to galling as shipped.
If I can help further let me know.
Wade
I had planned on hunting with a long action Impact this fall but it wasn't to be. I even have a .300 PRC barrrel chambered for when we can make them. I would not consider what we are doing catering to the PRS crowd. Due to our involvement in the PRS type shooting most of the first builders to approach us to become dealers have come from this sport. We are working hard to meet the ever increasing demand of these builders while maintaining quality and making available on our website a small percentage of actions for end users who may build their own or utilize a builder outside of our dealer network. If this delays long actions I feel we have made the right decision.
We are also not a company that will rush a product to market. We built several short actions, put them in the hands of serious shooters, and shot them for a season before making final adjustments and releasing them for public sale. I know this may not be the textbook modern business model but it has worked well for us and our customers.
Thanks for your patience,
Wade Stuteville
Wade, it’s apparent that the PRS circuit and like rifles are working for you.
I remember the first time I saw one of your actions was also the first tile I saw a foundation stock. They were both so beautiful. Now it’s becomming apparent that combo works as all the matches I go to are filled with them.
Vortex gen II
Impacts
Foundations
I remember the first time I saw one of your actions was also the first tile I saw a foundation stock. They were both so beautiful. Now it’s becomming apparent that combo works as all the matches I go to are filled with them.
Vortex gen II
Impacts
Foundations
These are some notes from my written history of Surgeon Rifles.
Pritchett's Machining was opened on 01-01-01 as a job shop.
The Surgeon name came from a nickname for Roman (former Army Ranger) had put on himself. He was the best I had ever seen on a manual mill.
Roman Leader (the Surgeon) started when we opened the doors Jan 1st 2001 and Retired mid October 2001.
After it was decided to make a action Wade brought many ideas for features on the action. In early 2003 we were 50% partners in a company called Surgeon Rifles.
Perry Colby started working in the shop in August of 2003. He is an extremely talented machinist and designer. While he did not have experience with firearms his work as both was an integral part of the development of Surgeon products.
XP 001 was the first action made. We threw it together with a used take off barrel from Terry Cross and a used McMillan A4 from Ken Stuteville. Wade wanted to test the first actions for a year to make sure everything was excellent. It was all I could do to pay the bills and needed something to do in the shop. He said he understood but if I was going to do this he wanted to back away. Our partnership separated over this. It was a decision we both regret to this day. We are still the best of friends.
We were constantly running ideas by Terry Cross. I can hear him like yesterday say. Man that would be cool. It would be even neater if a guy could add this or that into it also. The offer was made to Terry for part of the company if he would come join us. His roots were where he was at so he declined the offer.
August 19th 2011 Kathy and I sold 80% to Strategic Armory Corp.
After a few interviews Wade Stuteville was hired to be over Surgeon. Wade was the best manager to ever walk into the door in Oklahoma.
Steven Barrier started working at Surgeon in August of 2008 5 years after the start of the company as a salesman. Steven had a magnetic personality. He also had a tendency to say things that were untrue to cause conflict and to make him look better. The guys in the shop had nicknamed Steven “The Cancer”. He would later claim to be the designer and brains behind Surgeon. Truth is he was rarely around during the design. It took him over 2 years to buy a rifle, had he been involved I would have given him one. He had been shooting a Remington 700 built by Terry Cross.
In 2018 Wade and I were called on a conference call with a customer and some military leaders from Pakistan. Steven was claiming to have designed and owned the rights to the Surgeon action. He was telling them he could build and deliver them something like 30 Surgeon rifles per month. This was 2 years after he left Surgeon.
My opinion is Nexusfire owes Wade and Terry an apology. And Steven Barrier owes hundreds if not thousands of people apologies for the lies and pain he has caused. I would also bet that where Steven is working the stress level of the owner and employees are a lot greater than when he walked in there door.
As for Surgeon I think there brightest days are in the near future. They now have the equipment and backing to make great increases in the precision rifle arena. There is talk of exciting new items being produced when they get the pipeline flowing on the existing products. I am sorry the products are not available for immediate purchase. We should have made more for the shelf during the transition period. It’s hard to take production from one state to the other. Lots of training for the new employees. Lots of unseen hurdles to overcome. It’s very easy to look backwards and see what you should have done and what you should have seen. There are now a lot more good actions to choose from than when we started. As for me I will always be biased and firmly believe the Surgeon is the best for obvious reasons. Thankfully, I am still employed by Surgeon. Terry is right, competition breeds improvements. Wasn’t long ago we didn’t have rangefinders, the only fruitcake shooting a .260 was Terry Cross. McMillan A3 or 4 was tops. No one ran suppressors on their match guns. 2nd focal plane Leupold with mil dot crosshairs from Premier Reticles with MOA knobs was hard to beat. Mildot Master and a calculator was a necessity.
So the big question is what do we need to come up with to take the game to the next level. It still amazes me to look down range at a little target and think about hitting it. Seems like it wasn’t long ago we built a range to 385 yards and thought. This is as far as we will ever need. Some of the best times of my life we’re meeting and shooting with you guys. Now my best times are spent with my grandson and granddaughter. But I have to watch my grandson. He has been known to sucker punch me in the mouth when I am not on my toes. But I guess that’s what I deserve for picking on him.
Thanks,
Preston
Pritchett's Machining was opened on 01-01-01 as a job shop.
The Surgeon name came from a nickname for Roman (former Army Ranger) had put on himself. He was the best I had ever seen on a manual mill.
Roman Leader (the Surgeon) started when we opened the doors Jan 1st 2001 and Retired mid October 2001.
After it was decided to make a action Wade brought many ideas for features on the action. In early 2003 we were 50% partners in a company called Surgeon Rifles.
Perry Colby started working in the shop in August of 2003. He is an extremely talented machinist and designer. While he did not have experience with firearms his work as both was an integral part of the development of Surgeon products.
XP 001 was the first action made. We threw it together with a used take off barrel from Terry Cross and a used McMillan A4 from Ken Stuteville. Wade wanted to test the first actions for a year to make sure everything was excellent. It was all I could do to pay the bills and needed something to do in the shop. He said he understood but if I was going to do this he wanted to back away. Our partnership separated over this. It was a decision we both regret to this day. We are still the best of friends.
We were constantly running ideas by Terry Cross. I can hear him like yesterday say. Man that would be cool. It would be even neater if a guy could add this or that into it also. The offer was made to Terry for part of the company if he would come join us. His roots were where he was at so he declined the offer.
August 19th 2011 Kathy and I sold 80% to Strategic Armory Corp.
After a few interviews Wade Stuteville was hired to be over Surgeon. Wade was the best manager to ever walk into the door in Oklahoma.
Steven Barrier started working at Surgeon in August of 2008 5 years after the start of the company as a salesman. Steven had a magnetic personality. He also had a tendency to say things that were untrue to cause conflict and to make him look better. The guys in the shop had nicknamed Steven “The Cancer”. He would later claim to be the designer and brains behind Surgeon. Truth is he was rarely around during the design. It took him over 2 years to buy a rifle, had he been involved I would have given him one. He had been shooting a Remington 700 built by Terry Cross.
In 2018 Wade and I were called on a conference call with a customer and some military leaders from Pakistan. Steven was claiming to have designed and owned the rights to the Surgeon action. He was telling them he could build and deliver them something like 30 Surgeon rifles per month. This was 2 years after he left Surgeon.
My opinion is Nexusfire owes Wade and Terry an apology. And Steven Barrier owes hundreds if not thousands of people apologies for the lies and pain he has caused. I would also bet that where Steven is working the stress level of the owner and employees are a lot greater than when he walked in there door.
As for Surgeon I think there brightest days are in the near future. They now have the equipment and backing to make great increases in the precision rifle arena. There is talk of exciting new items being produced when they get the pipeline flowing on the existing products. I am sorry the products are not available for immediate purchase. We should have made more for the shelf during the transition period. It’s hard to take production from one state to the other. Lots of training for the new employees. Lots of unseen hurdles to overcome. It’s very easy to look backwards and see what you should have done and what you should have seen. There are now a lot more good actions to choose from than when we started. As for me I will always be biased and firmly believe the Surgeon is the best for obvious reasons. Thankfully, I am still employed by Surgeon. Terry is right, competition breeds improvements. Wasn’t long ago we didn’t have rangefinders, the only fruitcake shooting a .260 was Terry Cross. McMillan A3 or 4 was tops. No one ran suppressors on their match guns. 2nd focal plane Leupold with mil dot crosshairs from Premier Reticles with MOA knobs was hard to beat. Mildot Master and a calculator was a necessity.
So the big question is what do we need to come up with to take the game to the next level. It still amazes me to look down range at a little target and think about hitting it. Seems like it wasn’t long ago we built a range to 385 yards and thought. This is as far as we will ever need. Some of the best times of my life we’re meeting and shooting with you guys. Now my best times are spent with my grandson and granddaughter. But I have to watch my grandson. He has been known to sucker punch me in the mouth when I am not on my toes. But I guess that’s what I deserve for picking on him.
Thanks,
Preston
Well I think that straightened some stuff out and should make Nexusfire think twice before posting.
Preston, thank you for posting and for all you, Wade, and Terry have done for our community. It is awesome seeing you guys still get along and continue to push this community.
Preston, thank you for posting and for all you, Wade, and Terry have done for our community. It is awesome seeing you guys still get along and continue to push this community.
I would call that about the classiest rebuke and setting of the record straight that I’ve seen on here.
If some of you need some lotion #45 will help you out. Apologies excepted
This is my hunting 6.5-284 with a Surgeon RLR. Smooth as glass.
- Brux Barrels - hand lapped 26 inch stainless match grade barrel, with #4 contour and 8.5 twist
- Surgeon, stainless long action with fluted bolt
- Throated for bullets up to the length of 140 grain Berger VLD bullets
- Pinned recoil lug
- Pillar bedded, free floated
- Side bolt stop, release
- Jewell target grade trigger adjusted and tuned to a crisp 2.5 pounds
- Robertson Composites stock in black/grey
- Front bipod stud and front and rear flush cups (sling attachment) attached to side with 1 inch Pachmayr Decelerator pad
- Detachable magazine with 3 round capacity
- Talley 30 mm one piece rings/base
- Barrel is bead blasted dull finish
- Weight: Approximately 8.5 pounds
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Thats not a stainless Surgeon is it? Np3 coated or bead blasted chrome?This is my hunting 6.5-284 with a Surgeon RLR. Smooth as glass.
Will not find a better/classy person in the world than Preston. Thankful for everyday I get to spend with him.
Wow, I’m a Surgeon fan from early on and tapped into this thread knowing the yeah who would spew his crap upon the first word of Impact. I have seen this subject (Surgeon/Impact) come up a couple times over the last couple yrs. I can honestly say that this thread came out to be one of the best threads on the HIDE in a very long time...reminds me when.
Thanks to you Terry,Wade and Preston for this and putting it out there,simply the best!
Thanks to you Terry,Wade and Preston for this and putting it out there,simply the best!
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This needs to be a sticky on the bolt action rifle forum. Seriously, because this conversation always comes up. Coming from the horse's mouth should put this to rest!
It is easy to be the good guy on a public forum where lots of people can see you being the good guy, out of the public eye not always so much. I have an old McM A-3 with the Loggerhead hardware (sooooo much better than the hardware from McM) and I ran out of riser height with my 56mm NF so I called KMW to see if they made extended riser legs and Terry answered the phone. I’m lower than whale shit and Terry doesn’t know me from Adam but he took the time to answer any and all of my questions. I tried to keep it short because he is a busy man running a business but I mentioned how much I appreciate his stuff because the VA told me to go sit my ass at home and collect a pension check and shooting is how I pass my time. Terry tells me that he is sending me the riser legs for free and I very plainly said that I live within my means and that I intend to pay for my shit and he says nope, I said at least let me pay for the shipping and he says nope (hard fucking head on that guy!) My long winded AF point is that Terry is a class act in front of everyone and he is a class act when no one sees what he is doing, that’s just Terry being Terry.
I’d caution anyone who doesn’t have proof to think twice before out and out accusing people of theft or any type of infringement.
100% slander is what happened to Impact in this and another thread. Posting things like this can legitimately hurt someone’s business and you can find yourself in some legal problems.
It’s one thing to not like the quality of something or post a bad experience, but directly and publicly accusing people and/or companies of something like this without proof is bad stuff.
100% slander is what happened to Impact in this and another thread. Posting things like this can legitimately hurt someone’s business and you can find yourself in some legal problems.
It’s one thing to not like the quality of something or post a bad experience, but directly and publicly accusing people and/or companies of something like this without proof is bad stuff.
Preston this won me over and I have no doubts about buying a surgeon action again. Thank you for taking the time to type this out and it really cleared things up I can’t wait to see what surgeon has coming !
In my opinion they are missing a coating from the factory now that, it’s becom the normal and a trigger hanger would be nice instead of pins!
Hi,
So with all these first hand knowledge post from guys like Terry, Wade, Preston, etc.....where is Nexus???
Knowledge by application vs Knowledge by association is the key component of this thread
Sincerely,
Theis
So with all these first hand knowledge post from guys like Terry, Wade, Preston, etc.....where is Nexus???
Knowledge by application vs Knowledge by association is the key component of this thread
Sincerely,
Theis
Thanks for asking Nate but I would not be the best resource for critiquing one versus the other.
I am very familiar with the Surgeon but less so with the Impacts. I just know that the Impacts are extremely consistent in dimensions from SN to SN and they exhibit ridiculously good accuracy and reliability characteristics. The Impact actions are still relatively new on the scene but they have proven themselves by being run really hard in dirty and unpleasant environments by a growing number of shooters that go through more barrels in a year than I do in a decade.
While I would make a sound decision on the ability of both actions to perform, I do not have the technical knowledge and history of the Impact to offer a actual "educated" response for you. I think Wade already did a great job above of hitting some high points.
./
Note to all......
Also, I want to make it clear that in my opinion I had no meaningful influence on the design of the Surgeon.
I was in the right places at the right times with the right Rednecks to be involved with the discussions and help in what I could. Otherwise all of the actual concept and design edits are 99% Preston, Wade and Perry from what I remember.
As I recall, my total contributions to the design processes were in this order:
27 instances x Me saying "Oh wow! How cool! " when they shared some feature or part with me.
13 instances x Me saying "Jeez, how neat!. It would even be more cool if you added a small Death Star into the logo"
22 instances x Me saying "Seriously? You can make that machine do that? ! "
1 instance x Me saying " Dude, that will never work!" *There was only one instance of me giving this input because Preston is a titty pinching fool.
I do believe that they reached out for other opinions, passing ideas past several experienced shooters of that era besides myself.
While I do not have any equity in the success of the Surgeon designs, I can tell you that I met some of the best people of my life while included in that circle. I will take that as a win any day of the week and wouldn't trade it for anything.
./
Also, I want to make it clear that in my opinion I had no meaningful influence on the design of the Surgeon.
I was in the right places at the right times with the right Rednecks to be involved with the discussions and help in what I could. Otherwise all of the actual concept and design edits are 99% Preston, Wade and Perry from what I remember.
As I recall, my total contributions to the design processes were in this order:
27 instances x Me saying "Oh wow! How cool! " when they shared some feature or part with me.
13 instances x Me saying "Jeez, how neat!. It would even be more cool if you added a small Death Star into the logo"
22 instances x Me saying "Seriously? You can make that machine do that? ! "
1 instance x Me saying " Dude, that will never work!" *There was only one instance of me giving this input because Preston is a titty pinching fool.
I do believe that they reached out for other opinions, passing ideas past several experienced shooters of that era besides myself.
While I do not have any equity in the success of the Surgeon designs, I can tell you that I met some of the best people of my life while included in that circle. I will take that as a win any day of the week and wouldn't trade it for anything.
./
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No dog in the fight but pretty sure Wade called Nexus out and agreed to meet and show/or post a lot of the original info to show how much of his hand was in it and Nexus’s only reply was “they both knew the truth” but has not actually substantiated any of his claims.
When Gradous or Terry Cross says something I’d take it to the bank...Nexus not so much
When Gradous or Terry Cross says something I’d take it to the bank...Nexus not so much
Nexusfire stood up for his friend with out checking to see if what was being said was true. Wade, Mark and myself have all drank the same kool aid that Nexusfire drank. The problem is we all believed what we was told by “our” friend. Steven Barrier is the smartest manipulator I have ever known in my life. Looking backwards he has no long term friends. He said something about someone that makes you not want to confront that person. At the same time he tells the other person something about you to make the other person not want nothing to do with you. Then he plays a game standing in the middle of everyone. Looking backwards all it would have taken is to go to just one of the people and asked if it was true. Wade, Mark, Nexusfire and myself along with who knows how many are guilty of giving a verdict before the truth was known. Nexusfire is a guy that stood up for his friend while his friend backed away leaving him on the front line to take the fall.
For clarification, here's the story with how surgeon developed: after the military i worked for Overton tool&die company in Indiana where I completed a 4 year apprenticeship got my journeymans cert, and boogied to Oklahoma with our little shop in Shawnee in 96. One of our guys was chair/force good guy too and we gave each other bs all the time, he would joke that i perform work like a surgeon doing an operation, thus Dom nicknamed me the surgeon. I engraved stuff, tools, guns parts, knives whatever with that name, and began doing small parts for rifles, recoil lugs and sold some locally to shooters,,,and had a neat idea for a one piece action based on the rem700 design more or less, 4140 or 4340 steel, BUT, with one piece rail and rings with integral lug attached. The idea was be able to buttstroke the enemy and still hold zero, that was the idea. It worked! Around 98, a prototype 700 #0001 was design was built by me, added my surgeon rings tigd to 700action and haas cnc contour for 30mm scope, lug welded on, and bolt handle job, trigger job. Tested the gun and it fired .250 groups rather easy, shilen full contour bull barrel std 308 ream job, titanium devcon bed in mcmillan stock. Also built a couple single shot ideas 4140 iirc, rails were burnt on edm i kept one and gave one to Preston after he and I met in 99 i think. We opened his shop in 01 I left there later that year. Surgeonrifles happened sometime thereafter. Long, long, long ago we did a raffle on armyranger to help a fellow brother that needed help so we built a1911 and we raised about 3k for him. One of our Rb's back east has that pistol now. Popped the coyote at 680. God Bless friends!
Attachments
This is the most goddamn wild story I've read on here in a long time. It's like Enzo Ferrari's mechanic talking about how they decided to slap red onto a V12 and show up to Monza...
The thread was very interesting until it went dark last year......................................as interesting in resurrection! Love the integral rail on the prototype!
PART 1 of 3
Artifacts from the beginning.....
Been meaning to do this but couldn't find time. Still couldn't but did it anyway.
Snapped some quick phone pics of early Surgeon evolution that I have in my office ...
Having these at the KMW shop is a shame in a way because some of the history of what my friends did normally is out of site for most. Because of that, I wanted to post these in an effort to share to anyone interested in such things.
This was a partially roughed out receiver that I believe was part of Preston, Perry and Wade proofing G-code and materials. I seem to remember that there was already a TON of code written and re-written by this time.
Artifacts from the beginning.....
Been meaning to do this but couldn't find time. Still couldn't but did it anyway.
Snapped some quick phone pics of early Surgeon evolution that I have in my office ...
Having these at the KMW shop is a shame in a way because some of the history of what my friends did normally is out of site for most. Because of that, I wanted to post these in an effort to share to anyone interested in such things.
This was a partially roughed out receiver that I believe was part of Preston, Perry and Wade proofing G-code and materials. I seem to remember that there was already a TON of code written and re-written by this time.
PART 2 of 3
Artifacts from the beginning.....
These parts show progression toward what everybody came to know later as the M591.
You can see how the one piece bolt was roughed out and a cut-away was made to inspect the multi-diameter holes and taper for the firing pin track.
This receiver had the raceways fully wired and was getting close to the final iteration.
Artifacts from the beginning.....
These parts show progression toward what everybody came to know later as the M591.
You can see how the one piece bolt was roughed out and a cut-away was made to inspect the multi-diameter holes and taper for the firing pin track.
This receiver had the raceways fully wired and was getting close to the final iteration.
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PART 3 of 3
Artifacts from the beginning.....
This is a fully functioning very early action.
Note the big sweep on the bolt handle and the knob styled after early KMW handles that were installed on R700s. I voted and argued hard against any sweep on the bolt handle. I guess enough others voted with me because none were ever sold with a swept handle.
They also had to adjust where the engraving was on the receiver because some of it would fall close to or below the waterline of the stock. Even early production actions had LARGE engraving on the side.
This one has never been barreled or shot.
The amount of work, stress, innovation and risk that was put into this project by those guys is what I remember most. I hope these images help some of you appreciate what was involved and all that they did.
Artifacts from the beginning.....
This is a fully functioning very early action.
Note the big sweep on the bolt handle and the knob styled after early KMW handles that were installed on R700s. I voted and argued hard against any sweep on the bolt handle. I guess enough others voted with me because none were ever sold with a swept handle.
They also had to adjust where the engraving was on the receiver because some of it would fall close to or below the waterline of the stock. Even early production actions had LARGE engraving on the side.
This one has never been barreled or shot.
The amount of work, stress, innovation and risk that was put into this project by those guys is what I remember most. I hope these images help some of you appreciate what was involved and all that they did.
Have you ever had one of the pull ropes snap off inside the spring loaded hub of a chainsaw, mower or weedeater while you were trying to crank it in vain?....... That best describes my pull with Surgeon currently.
I gave up on trying to get a dozen of the XLs from them a year ago after trying for 12-18 months leading up to it.
I don't know anyone there anymore and that is prolly a good thing.....
