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- Thread starter MosesTheTank
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The point I was trying to make, was that a good company back up their product/service with a warranty.
You may have violated the rifle companies warranty, but the smiths' shop should have their own warranty.
The kind that says "We pride ourselves in our professional craftsmanship. Should anything be not to your satisfaction or the work was done incorrectly, please come back for a refund/free repair".
Something like that.
When a company does custom work/repairs and has a full liability release form like the one you showed, they are basically saying, "If you don't like our work, you can go fuck yourself."
I find it interesting that Rooney's schtick is that TR is to be the first mass manufacturer of custom rifles. In reality he has failed to accomplish two major benefits of mass production, namely reduced cost to the consumer and greater availability and has in fact succeeded in attaining two of the negatives namely disinterested customer service and subjecting customers to warranties disclaimers and the like drafted by dh lawyers not craftsman or shooters.
Here is what the TR Manual has to say about availability (in terms of delivery times). Mine was 18+ months to get most, but not all, of the order filled. I should have posted enough to show the effects of his system on cost benefits.
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"We take extreme pride in the assemble of our rifles…"
Apparently that pride doesn't extend to proof-reading their published documents. Hilarious.
Apparently that pride doesn't extend to proof-reading their published documents. Hilarious.
There are many more typos throughout the literature, grammatical, spelling, and otherwise. See the last line of the above page.
This^^
Ultimately it was the errors in the sales book that made me do more research and turned me away from the company. I read the snazzy magazine articles. I read the internet article where somebody claimed to have shot a 3 inch, 5 shot group at 1,000 yds on a dirty bird target. With a 308 no less.
Reading the literature from TR raised many red flags. I got to thinking "You build rifles that cost thosands of dollars, but you let a retarded kangaroo proof read your sales flyer.", and that did it. I dug deeper, found stuff like this, and TR lost the sale.
Perhaps as many of us as possible should pay their web site a visit and share our opinions of his workmanship.
This is why forums like this are so important.
We need to protect our brethren from this kind of thing.
We need to protect our brethren from this kind of thing.
I can't stop thinkin about this thread. It's discouraging. Does this asswipe, rooney, really believe that his shit don't stink? I wonder if he is off his rocker and really believes his rifles are as good as he thinks, or if he knows he is a fraud and is trying to screw people over. Doesn't really matter, either way, I have such distain for this guy. Wish 60 minutes or dateline would expose this hack for the shit he's been pullin...."To catch a rooney"
Wow, this is crazy. Like many others have said; how do these jerks stay in business? Precision/custom rifle building is not in any way shape or form something that can be half assed or bull shitted through. An old timer at the range I shoot at has one of their rifles that he seems to love, so maybe he got lucky. I've never planned on doing a build through them, but this only strengthens that decision. I can't imagine spending that much money to receive what you did. Much respect to how you've handled this.
I'm curious. Does anyone else have one of the targets supposedly fired from one these TR builds, included at delivery? I wonder if it shows the exact same group in the same area of the target.
Here is what the TR Manual has to say about availability (in terms of delivery times). Mine was 18+ months to get most, but not all, of the order filled. I should have posted enough to show the effects of his system on cost benefits.
Damn that's some funny shit! I talked to Mr. Rooney a couple of years ago about a build. He had a promotion going on where he would start your build for a buck! I thought it sounded promising, talked to him on the phone, sent him an email detailing what I wanted in my rifle, he sent me a kinda cheesy quote form that was missing the exact parts such as trigger and dbm that I had requested. He lost my business right there and shortly afterwards I heard about his business ethics and product quality on this forum. Don't ever drink his kool-aid!
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well the cats out of the bag and all this is going public since this thread is now making its rounds on facebook. just saw the FB posts today by a couple of other builders and companies
Shameful... I cant even fathom how someone can screw up not only ordering the correct parts or not forgetting parts, but simply dusting particles off a rifle before sending it out. How can someone install a scope and damage it that badly? It just doesnt make any sense to me.
Seriously.
I have installed triggers, scopes and chassis. I don't do it for a business. Just a hobbyist and I cannot imagine how careless a person would have to be in their work to make so many shoddy mistakes.
I have installed triggers, scopes and chassis. I don't do it for a business. Just a hobbyist and I cannot imagine how careless a person would have to be in their work to make so many shoddy mistakes.
We should inundate their web site with messages indicating that we will be publicizing their incompetence on every gun forum we can find and warn everyone not to do business with them.
You can reach a whole lot of people quickly via social media. This thread has been posted all over FB and has been shared by many.
Thank you OP for the education.
Thank you OP for the education.
Agreed. I admire the OP's approach as it only illuminates what to expect out of a $8,000+ custom ordered rifle from Tactical Rifle. Simply observed facts and in no way "defaming" a crook.... Uhh business owner.
Thanks for the facts OP.
Thanks for the facts OP.
You saved me from any possible headaches. I am near the Hills of Zephyr, and will stick with my local smith.
I came across David's website years ago before I had found the Hide. He sent me a nice brochure complete with price list. Luckily I dodged that bullet and am the very happy owner of a GAP, but easily could have ordered one of his polished turds instead. Moderators- How about making a Sticky in the bolt action section with a link to this and other tacticalrifles.net threads so that new guys know to avoid this company, as well as make a group statement to TR how we feel about their treatment of our fellow shooters.
I can't believe that you chose to put down 8K over the Internet, when you LOCAL GUNSMITH IS NONE OTHER THAN ACCURATE ORDNANCE!!!!!! Were you a regular on this forum prior to the purchase?
I am glad it worked out well for you.
Eravelo, I hear you loud and clear. I was not a regular on the Hide at that time. That being the case and having the information I had at the time, putting down 8K to GAP "over the internet" would have been no different. The Hide turned up in a web search just like any other site would. Of course hindsight is what it is.
The point of this thread is to communicate my experience in a limited way. Whatever my feelings are is completely beside the point. However, the sentiments of so many posters are not lost on me. You have pointed out the need for better information, especially for newbs, and I couldn't possibly agree more. So here we are. If my experience can benefit others I should consider that a positive.
Edit: I learned about Accurate Ordnance in early 2013. I clicked on the Grand Opening link and there they were. I could have just as easily clicked on any other link on any other web site. Where that click wound up taking me can be found elsewhere on the Hide. But for the experienced here, think about how easily someone just looking for information can go this way or that.
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It would be nice to pay the money for a "sponsored link" on Google so threads like this one are ahead of their official website. Anyone potential buyer with an IQ above freezing would stay away if a few "Run for your life away from them" links popped up first.
Moses,
Thank you for the information and assistance in letting us know about the issues you encountered with Tractical Rifles, Inc. I really appreciate your wanting to help people and so I want to try and help as well. You have done a great job in letting us know in an adult way and you certainly have brought up other people's experiences. Let us hope the truth will continue to be spread throughout the community.
IF ANY NEW PEOPLE GOT THIS FAR IN THE THEAD AND ARE LOOKING FOR ASSISTANCE, look no further.
My experience with GA Precision and Euro Optics was completely different. I purchased a Schmidt and Bender PMII for $3,900 and was told 10 weeks, it came in 2 weeks. I ordered from GA Precision a Hospitaller with additional magazines and Jewel Trigger for $4,900 and was told 6 months, it came in 3 months. The quality is second to nothing else I have ever seen. A photo:
<a href="http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/NeilGift/media/IMG_3213_zpsf39b3494.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b636/NeilGift/IMG_3213_zpsf39b3494.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_3213_zpsf39b3494.jpg"/></a>
Here are some links to these awesome vendors:
Home - GA Precision
338 Lapua, Benelli, Nightforce, Sako, Schmidt Bender, Swarovski, Leica, Zeiss - EuroOptic.com
I am totally bummed your experience was not the same Moses. But your willingness to come forward will help others in their purchase decisions. It is great members like you that make this forum really great. This forum has been SO helpful to me in diagnosing issues and getting good direction. I just hope this forum can continue to grow and help others. With people like you Moses, it will. Thank you.
I guess I was blissfully ignorant when I did my first custom build. I spoke to the builder, we agreed on a build time, he asked for nothing up front other than for me to source some parts I wanted on my own to keep the process moving forward so he wasn't bogged down trying to get parts in. He had the rifle ready on-time and we settled up at the end. He even took a hit on the expedited shipping getting it to me in time for a course. I really had no idea at the time that getting what you paid for in the agreed upon time wasn't something you could count on.
Apparently SEVERAL members are dealing with issues as least as bad as Moses. In a couple of cases the companies either went under and kept everyone's money, or are holding customer's guns AND money and hiding from law enforcement.
Moses, my intent is NOT to hijack your thread, but simply to post a couple of relevant links to the other threads so the guys following this saga can be equally advised of some other shenanigans:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-semi-auto-rifles/158940-loki-weapons.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...5778-isssues-superior-tactical-solutions.html
Apparently SEVERAL members are dealing with issues as least as bad as Moses. In a couple of cases the companies either went under and kept everyone's money, or are holding customer's guns AND money and hiding from law enforcement.
Moses, my intent is NOT to hijack your thread, but simply to post a couple of relevant links to the other threads so the guys following this saga can be equally advised of some other shenanigans:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-semi-auto-rifles/158940-loki-weapons.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...5778-isssues-superior-tactical-solutions.html
I have purpesely NOT posted on this and the same thread on Central for a reason, I wanted to hear BOTH sides. I am a diehard FORD fan, Why? I had a 1977 F-100 with a 300 engine. Great pickup and I base my love of Ford on this one pickup, My first. Years later I decided to give Chevy a try, This truck popped a "service eng" light every month, once a month. It was always for a different reason and the component checked good. I hung a tampon from the mirror. Will never own another Chevy. Just like rifles, every once in a while, a lemon slips through. There are people here who love Rooney's work and have ordered numerous times. And there are people who hate his work. Let's keep this in perspective folks, Dave has a lot of folks working for him and cannot possibly watch everything, HOWEVER,He should appoint one guy whose job it is to THOROUGHLY inspect and test fire each weapon before it leaves, and that person will handle all complaints. The BBB has 7 complaints against them, 7..........against how many rifles? At $8G's+, a customer better be happy. If you have an employee doing shoddy work, get rid of him, which I suspect is the case. I do Belgian bluing and accidently put a fingerprint on a gun, you could barely see it, but had to do it over, customer was happy. Belgian bluing is an 8-10 hour process done correctly.
Goatman, I appreciate your perspective and fair-mindedness, and you sound like a gentlemen I'd send some finishing work. I won't presume to speak to for everyone here, but I believe what has folks really worked up isn't that a bad rifle left the TacticalRifles shop. All of us concede that the odd mistake makes it through, and several of us have had those things happen. As has been mentioned, HOW a builder deals with those mistakes makes the difference. The multiple cases that have been brought up don't indicate the odd mistake, they speak to a pervasive attitude of HALFASSERY and a complete contempt for customers.
You don't "accidentally" BUTCHER a bedding/inletting job and conceal it with krylon. I'm not a gunsmith, but I can tell when a thread mate-up is way too loose and out of spec. It is not possible to make the mistakes that have been documented and not know about it. It's simply NOT. So what this says is that the attitude of that shop is "fuck it" either it's "good enough" or "no one will notice". Or even worse as seems to be the case, "even if the custome DOES notice, we're not going to do anything about it, we have his money".
The attitude of the boss trickles down. Employees know when the boss cares about quality and when he tolerates "good enough".
You don't "accidentally" BUTCHER a bedding/inletting job and conceal it with krylon. I'm not a gunsmith, but I can tell when a thread mate-up is way too loose and out of spec. It is not possible to make the mistakes that have been documented and not know about it. It's simply NOT. So what this says is that the attitude of that shop is "fuck it" either it's "good enough" or "no one will notice". Or even worse as seems to be the case, "even if the custome DOES notice, we're not going to do anything about it, we have his money".
The attitude of the boss trickles down. Employees know when the boss cares about quality and when he tolerates "good enough".
You can shear a sheep over and over again, but you can only skin him once. Guess we know which one they chose.
Agreed, I wasn't trying to minimize the issue, just being fair, and I do think Dave should make good, Any one in business knows you are not going to satisfy 100% of the peolple 100% of the time. The 1st sgt's in the military had a saying that runs true, 10% of your people cause 90% of your problems. I would urge the author of this thread and Dave get together and work their problems out, Please.
It's really not like that with TR. They continually pump out half assed work, blame the customer, refuse to fix it unless it's their terms, all this after they charge you an arm and a leg for it. That is shoddy business practices.
He does in continually, it's not just a random occurrence. No one is above a mistake, this Rooney clown is making a habit of it and it's finally biting him in the ass.
As the owner of the company he should make himself available to inspect every rifle. The hardest part of the rifle building is the machining, bedding, and painting. All he would need to do is final inspection and a test fire. If he can't do that he has piss poor time management skills.
Goatman,
I believe you are spot on. I have not made clear here the volume of correspondence with TR. The points of contact are voluminous. On not a single occasion for a single phone call was he at the shop. Typical responses to inquiries were along the order of 'I don't handle shipping', 'I'll have to contact the girls at the shop', 'please give the shop a call', 'production handles that'. But I think the most important point is made not by me at all but by David himself in the email posted previously. I do not believe my imagination is limited, but I am having a difficult time producing a scenario where any business owner could defend David's position. For the sake of reasonableness please take a look at some of the other smiths and manufacturers on here (and there are many) who immediately addressed customer issues. As an example, below is an exchange between myself and Accurate Ordnance. I had a magazine that suddenly began causing feeding problems during this rifles first range trip. I was not happy. Turns out I had bent the feed lips. My fault. But what was AO's reaction...?
This response is over the top and is above and beyond what I would call good customer service. I had a concern and first they responded, and then went beyond that. More to the point, there were a few emails prior to this one to sort things out. This entire thread is anything but a knee jerk reaction, but an experience that is just about 2 years long. With TR there are DOZENS of emails with no positive outcome at all. Though tone is a subjective matter, I kept a positive attitude through all of it. This thread only arose after I was told what I was told in that email (again, one in a string of many). I have the same view for any product I buy. I can give similar good outcomes for Johnston & Murphy shoes, Arcteryx outdoor gear, and others.
I do appreciate your response and believe that your sensibilities are in the right place. Thank you.
I believe you are spot on. I have not made clear here the volume of correspondence with TR. The points of contact are voluminous. On not a single occasion for a single phone call was he at the shop. Typical responses to inquiries were along the order of 'I don't handle shipping', 'I'll have to contact the girls at the shop', 'please give the shop a call', 'production handles that'. But I think the most important point is made not by me at all but by David himself in the email posted previously. I do not believe my imagination is limited, but I am having a difficult time producing a scenario where any business owner could defend David's position. For the sake of reasonableness please take a look at some of the other smiths and manufacturers on here (and there are many) who immediately addressed customer issues. As an example, below is an exchange between myself and Accurate Ordnance. I had a magazine that suddenly began causing feeding problems during this rifles first range trip. I was not happy. Turns out I had bent the feed lips. My fault. But what was AO's reaction...?
This response is over the top and is above and beyond what I would call good customer service. I had a concern and first they responded, and then went beyond that. More to the point, there were a few emails prior to this one to sort things out. This entire thread is anything but a knee jerk reaction, but an experience that is just about 2 years long. With TR there are DOZENS of emails with no positive outcome at all. Though tone is a subjective matter, I kept a positive attitude through all of it. This thread only arose after I was told what I was told in that email (again, one in a string of many). I have the same view for any product I buy. I can give similar good outcomes for Johnston & Murphy shoes, Arcteryx outdoor gear, and others.
I do appreciate your response and believe that your sensibilities are in the right place. Thank you.
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Totally agree, if my post didn't convey these same feelings then I obviously screwed up. Rooney clearly doesn't give a shit about what leaves his shop and the clowns in his shop obviously know it.
As I said, I'm no gunsmith, but I'd imagine in a shop the size of his, he has a guy doing whatever machine work there may be (although I doubt much), there's a guy doing fitting and assembly on the weapon, a guy doing stock work/bedding etc. Even if he has a few guys in each position, I'd imagine a reputable shop would know which guy worked on which rifle. There is NO WAY that a guy who gives a shit would get a picture/video of this kind of shit-assed work and NOT go back in the shop and start firing people publicly and loudly to ensure that every other clown back there got the message.
Instead, half-assed work continues to leave his shop and he shits on the customer for it. He doesn't take the approach of "Holy Shit, I cannot fucking believe THAT piece of shit came out of MY shop. I am SO sorry sir, send that piece of shit back to me so I can shove it up the ass of the guy who assembled it and I will personally oversee the build of exactly what you ordered at my expense."
He tolerates and makes money off of half-assery, so the guys in the shop know they can put out shit. THAT is where Rooney distances himself from the honest tradesman who delivers a less than acceptable product due to a fluke.
BBB complaints are a pain in the ass and a waste of time. If these complaints actually got people their money back, there would probably be over 100 of them. There are also a ton of people out there that wouldn't think of disassembling their rifle, and frankly, know next to nothing about what a good rifle should look like. These are the bulk of his customers; the naive. He is exploiting their ignorance, and has gotten away with it for a long time. Then once every so often, someone who has a little knowledge comes across one of his shoddy pieces of work and raises hell. He goes into damage control mode until the fire dies out. It is his black box algorithm, and it has been working for him. I hope one day he will either change his business practice or disappear.
I just looked up GA Precision, and I can promise you, they put out far more rifles than Tactical Rifles does in every given year...
They have 0 complaints with the BBB. So to say a company with a "few" complaints is no big deal I think is far underestimating what that many complaints actually translates to.
They have 0 complaints with the BBB. So to say a company with a "few" complaints is no big deal I think is far underestimating what that many complaints actually translates to.
Moses, thank you. I read your supporting documentation on central AND Dave's response. It reads more like an infomercial and I do think he needs to make good. I am not in a position to drop 8g's on a rifle, and from your pics it does look like he has some 'splainin to do. A 50% deposit is not unreasonable, that covers your suppliers and immediate overhead, the wages, heat, cooling, insurance, benefits, profit etc, comes out of the 2nd 50%.
I continue to read threads of assholes ripping people off who enjoy long range shooting as a hobby. Years ago there was the guy in Texas who for a brief moment turned out nice stuff..and then he went to to the dark side for reasons only he and his maker will know..there have been many others. Some from very pedigreed shops who left to go out on their own.
My rhetorical question.....is the demographic of the people they are screwing over does not seem like the kind of people you want to do this to. These are not used cars......Am I the only one observing the obvious?
One day we will hear of a mysterious accident happening to one of these ass clowns.
My rhetorical question.....is the demographic of the people they are screwing over does not seem like the kind of people you want to do this to. These are not used cars......Am I the only one observing the obvious?
One day we will hear of a mysterious accident happening to one of these ass clowns.
I paid for the rifle in installments between the time of the order on 1/31/2012 and final payment processing on 11/7/2012. The rifle was received on 8/9/2013 and the last of the accessories received on 11/13/2013:
Deposit Confirmation
Final Payment Confirmation
Rifle Shipment
Final Accessories Shipment
I do not know the cost structure of TR, or what might be industry norms.
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Thank god for sites such as the Snipershide that expose bad gunsmiths! It's unfortunate that somebody took a major hit, but at least others may be saved from suffering the same fate!
Aside from all the bullshit that these guys pull. I am wondering If you pay a deposit, THEN they send you that disclaimer or waiver or whatever and you do not agree is the deposit still not refundable seems really shady to me.
