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Rifle Scopes Tangent Theta - Professional Marksman
- Thread starter orkan
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I looked at these today, they are nice to be honest they are crazy to think that the price they want for them is even close to what they should actually sell for. As far as scopes go the Steiner is the bang for the buck!
Prices on everything hve gone up since Premier set pricing back in 2008, and THEY went bankrupt pricing them there. Handled these today and everything written above is spot on. Gorgeous and ingenious. Turrets were spectacular.
Pricey, yes but oh so great. I'm going to have to save all year but I'll be buying a 5-25x56.
Pricey, yes but oh so great. I'm going to have to save all year but I'll be buying a 5-25x56.
Glad to see TT taking care of those out there with Premier products. I've talked with Paul about changing my cw to ccw and he's been most helpful.
They have to be smoking dope to think 4250 is going to be a good price for a new optic from a new company. Obviously Premier went to hell. Why not start competitive and as people give them another chance THEN raise prices once people see what they came up with......
Kahles, S&B and Night force are gunna fly off the shelves before this new line gets flowing given the ridiculous prices.
Kahles, S&B and Night force are gunna fly off the shelves before this new line gets flowing given the ridiculous prices.
This is the first time you could opt for a S&B and save some cash. I really like my Premiers and was excited over these scopes but 4k+ is alot of cheese!
The eye box is supposedly more forgiving. I can't imagine how much more given how forgiving the Premier was.
Parallax was rebuilt. Turret clicks are supposed to be the best ever. Zero stop is friggin awesome or so it seems... similar to March.
Illumination is similar to Steiner... as good as it gets.
If it ends up being ultra reliable, I think $4K won't sound bad.
Basically it looks like they took the best aspects of every scope available and built it into one... except for one thing in my point of view... "reticle".
Parallax was rebuilt. Turret clicks are supposed to be the best ever. Zero stop is friggin awesome or so it seems... similar to March.
Illumination is similar to Steiner... as good as it gets.
If it ends up being ultra reliable, I think $4K won't sound bad.
Basically it looks like they took the best aspects of every scope available and built it into one... except for one thing in my point of view... "reticle".
Years ago when Leupold was dominant, did you ever think you'd say that a $4K scope was "cheap". Or that a manufacturer would even dare to offer a $7k optic? We wouldn't have paid $7k for NV or thermal years ago.
We grudgingly agreed to pay more for glass than for a complete custom build. We're now hitting the point of paying more than TWO custom builds for an optic. I guess since guys are lining up to pay $7-8k for a factory rifle now, the optics companies know that we'll pay whatever price they name.
I'm not really bitching. The price is the price (for us, the Mil buys the same thing for a fraction of that), and I'd rather see manufacturers in THIS industry doing well. I guess I'm just commenting on how rapidly we as a community have added a Zero to the price of everything we buy and not really thought twice about it.
But we do so knowing that the quality of the product is going up as well. We can still buy other scopes and rifles at a budget, and a lot of people still do. No one is stopping you from buying a Savage and sticking a Nikon or Leupold scope on it. For others, the perceived difference in quality is worth the price tag that comes along with it. Are things getting more expensive? Yes, but the overall quality of the product is improving as well. Not to mention inflation and everything else that naturally makes everything more expensive as the years go on.
I for one think that its great that we have a lot of options in a lot of different price ranges, that's nothing but good for the sport and the industry.
I fingerbanged both today, buying a Tangent Theta. Yes, I do work for a living and still have made the choice to spend $1k more.
BEAST is great, TT is sublime. Choose either and you will love it.
Not arguing with you and wasn't even really bitching. I have several $8K+ rifle/optics combos, and just talked to Marc at Spartan about another one. I think you hit it right on with the "perceived difference in quality". Today's $3K-$4K optics actually HAVE huge upgrades in features and glass from what was available years ago. I'm anxiously awaiting this year's offerings, and I want to see what S&B or whoever is offering that's $3K better than their current product. Just for reference, the last I heard, the Mil bought the Horus-equipped S&Bs for under $2K per scope, so we "perceive" the value of that scope to be twice what they can sell it for at a profit (and I am NOT begrudging a company their right to make a profit).
Price can be scary on new things. No doubt about it. However, I'm confident that once people get their hands on these, the hesitancy will go away for those looking to buy at that level. If this scope performs to the expectations on a rifle, it will be the singular best riflescope on the planet. For some people, it will be worth it to have that extra performance. For others, we are blessed to live in such a time when solid options are available to us at just about every price point. Remember also, that the pricing includes quite a lot more enticing package than was available with Premier. An included Tennabraex ARD is a pretty tasty morsel for those inclined to buy it anyway.
Top end riflescopes have been scaring the heck out of $4k for quite a while now. With prices adjusted for inflation, and the value added items, you'll see that it's not SO very far away from where things have been. With the additional improvements over the Premier, and the added improvements to the scope, I feel the price is warranted. Also, lets not forget that the last company that tried to produce a product at this level with these features, became insolvent, and is no longer in business. After talking with Mr. Webber this morning, it was clear to me that he and his team are shooters with a solid understanding of business. These scopes must cost a certain amount in order for Tangent Theta to remain solvent. They intend to be around to support their customer base for a very long time, and their decisions thus far would seem to support that intention.
Tomorrow, I will visit with them again and get answers to the specific questions asked above.
For those interested in picking up some outstanding scopes that occupy a lower price point, we have several Premier Light Tactical scopes on hand, as well as a 3-15 Tactical. All are ready for immediate delivery.
Top end riflescopes have been scaring the heck out of $4k for quite a while now. With prices adjusted for inflation, and the value added items, you'll see that it's not SO very far away from where things have been. With the additional improvements over the Premier, and the added improvements to the scope, I feel the price is warranted. Also, lets not forget that the last company that tried to produce a product at this level with these features, became insolvent, and is no longer in business. After talking with Mr. Webber this morning, it was clear to me that he and his team are shooters with a solid understanding of business. These scopes must cost a certain amount in order for Tangent Theta to remain solvent. They intend to be around to support their customer base for a very long time, and their decisions thus far would seem to support that intention.
Tomorrow, I will visit with them again and get answers to the specific questions asked above.
For those interested in picking up some outstanding scopes that occupy a lower price point, we have several Premier Light Tactical scopes on hand, as well as a 3-15 Tactical. All are ready for immediate delivery.
None of my cost/price comments were even related to Tangent Theta. Another entry in the $3-4K field is VERY welcome. I've had a BEAST on order since shortly after the last SHOT show. I was commenting on the above post about S&B releasing a $7k offering and how we've evolved as consumers in this field that we don't really even flip out after a $7k optic, and many of us have multiple optics in the $3-4K range, whereas years ago that was a NICE rifle/optic setup.
I personally wish Tangent Theta every success, and look forward to some more reticle options in the future.
Why would somebody who has a "new" design from Optronika in their hands buy a failing business with a bad rep, and continue to service the old scopes too?
I wonder if they'll ditch the Nunya, China parts this time around?
I wonder if they'll ditch the Nunya, China parts this time around?
Another question to ask, ever since ATI acquired Tenebraex, no one has the lens covers in stock, and every vendor I talk to keeps moving the date they expect arrival of new stock one or two months down the road. When will we see these magical devices appear again?
I did have a look at the scopes yesterday at the SHOT and I was very impressed but what I saw. There was one thing I was impressed by: the clicks. I went back an forth an compared them with March and the BEAST and the case was closed. TT and March were in a division of their own, as far as the turrets were concerned, where the BEAST did not get yet. Clicking on the TT and March was like hearing the clicks of a topquality swiswatch. Shit, it was like music.
The BEAST's turrets were big and uggly compare to the other 2. The March is no doubt the king there but the TT turrets were very nice as well, fairly low profile and practical. And again, one must listen to that sound!!!!!
It was hard to compare them optically with each other as I basically had to go back and forth and jot down differnt aspects but I could not discern any difference in clarity between them. Light transmission was also something that couldn't be evaluated in a place like that but March seemed to have the best floating reticle image with less scope shadows than the TT that came second. The BEAST was worse among the three and I could see a lot of reminicent heritage from the NXS modells in them.
I really liked what I saw with TT and apart from the price I see no problems with them. But as said before, should I choose to buy a S&B for even more or should I settle for a TT? After what I saw, my answer will no doubt be: TT.
A thorough field test is what is needed next though, before making up my mind.
The BEAST's turrets were big and uggly compare to the other 2. The March is no doubt the king there but the TT turrets were very nice as well, fairly low profile and practical. And again, one must listen to that sound!!!!!
It was hard to compare them optically with each other as I basically had to go back and forth and jot down differnt aspects but I could not discern any difference in clarity between them. Light transmission was also something that couldn't be evaluated in a place like that but March seemed to have the best floating reticle image with less scope shadows than the TT that came second. The BEAST was worse among the three and I could see a lot of reminicent heritage from the NXS modells in them.
I really liked what I saw with TT and apart from the price I see no problems with them. But as said before, should I choose to buy a S&B for even more or should I settle for a TT? After what I saw, my answer will no doubt be: TT.
A thorough field test is what is needed next though, before making up my mind.
Well it's nice to hear that the BEAST has been surpassed before it was ever delivered. I was joking before SHOT about whether NF would be "releasing" the BEAST for a 2nd year without having delivered on last year's orders, I guess it wasn't a joke.
Either way, when I get the call that it's FINALLY available I'll still complete the deal on it.
Looking forward to seeing what Tangent Theta rolls out in the next year, as some competitors in that realm will be nice.
Glad to hear that TT will honor the warranty on Premier products. Too many folks these days that just pass the buck. Great to see TT take the high road.
These prices are really just a reflection of how far the dollar has collapsed in value over the last 20 years. In the mid 90's a brand new Leupold Mark 4 went for about $1k. That was the top of line tactical scope of the time. If you look at what you could buy in 1995 for $1k versus what you can get for $3,000-$3,5000 today the value of the the products would be about the same. Think used cars, riding lawn-mowers etc... Granted the product and technology has gotten better, but not 3x-4x better. Inflation is a fact of our lives here in America that far too many people overlook.
When Premier Reticles stopped support of Premier-boosted Leupolds, they pissed off and alienated a lot of people. Some of them were Premier-Leupold owners, and some were people that just thought it was a pisspoor way of doing business (which it was).
If TT decided to ditch support of Heritage owners, they would be alienating thousands of high-ticket scope buyers. Buyers that would NEVER consider purchasing a new TT product. Compounding this is the fact most Heritage owners love the product, and constitute a large portion of the demographic that would be interested in a TT in the first place.
ETA: I suspect a chunk of that $4250 price tag is due to the "legacy costs" of the Heritage product line. If so, seems like an indicator TT will always focus on taking care of all customers, past, present and future.
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So why not take your money and your cool new design from optronika and start a new company? You're not obligated to buy a failing business to start making glass.
It's odd that the "new" scope looks so much like the last one. If this is the design optronika spit out before they bought premier, there would have been a lawsuit if premier was still cranking out scopes.
It just doesn't add up to me.
Pity everyones wage hasn't increase the same!!!
I think the issue is you can get a Kahles 624i for $3100 Beast for $3200 PMii 5-25 $3400!!! They want $4250 for the 5-25 TT!! for what?
You can't compare its value to the $7k PMII 3-27 or Henny 3.5-26 it's not in that class!! thats a whole other argument of insanity
... because there was a lot about the Premier scopes they liked. I'm pretty sure you answered your own question. They'd have been sued if they didn't buy them. So it wasn't even an option. As I said in the preview post, they took what they liked from the Premier design, and incorporated it into their own.
Otherwise they would have been tippie-toeing around Premier in regard to features in their own design. I think it was a very smart move. Lets not forget, as the soul distributor of Premier products at the time, to abandon the brand and go with their own design would have left a great deal of high end scopes with no service outlet. As a dealer, you are under no real obligation to service a manufacturers part if they go out of business. Is that really how you wish it would have gone?
I see your point. TT wasn't legally bound to honor the warranty of a defunct business, even though TT bought said defunct business.
Perhaps it's a gesture of good faith?
Given the nature of the product that TT is now displaying, I still contend there would be a lot of pissed off PRH owners that would never consider a TT product, if they wouldn't support the old PRH models.
I think has more to do with the service contract of the marine ssds doesn't it? If TT walked away they would have given up a huge chunk of guaranteed cash.
Way I see it , I never thought I would have ever paid over $ 1500 for a scope , much less $60k a halfass decent pickup will set you back .....yes today inflation is kicking ass big time
Yep, this is probably right. I own a few Premiers. Because they will still be serviced, I'm left with a desire to purchase a TT.
This was the way it was explained to me today by Mr Lange. They knew if they didn't support old PH scopes they would have basically zero prospective buyers of new TT scopes.
Very nice, I am glad to hear my very old PH still has its warranty. At the very least it means resale value will stay relatively constant.
Orkan - any chance you guys will be offering a 50mm sunshade ARD similar to the USO one that was available a while back? I could really use one.
Orkan - any chance you guys will be offering a 50mm sunshade ARD similar to the USO one that was available a while back? I could really use one.
Greg,
Is it safe to say that Premier/Optronika branded scopes were made with thicker main tubes? Or were there any changes at all and just relabeled. It sounds like once Premier went under that changes were made before the Premier/Optronika name appeared on the existing line out now. Or am I reading that wrong. After spending almost 7k within the last 6months for these scopes it's easy to say i'm a Premier/Optronika now TT fan and I have one word that sums up TT "integrety" it says alot that they will honor the Premier/Optronika brands!
Is it safe to say that Premier/Optronika branded scopes were made with thicker main tubes? Or were there any changes at all and just relabeled. It sounds like once Premier went under that changes were made before the Premier/Optronika name appeared on the existing line out now. Or am I reading that wrong. After spending almost 7k within the last 6months for these scopes it's easy to say i'm a Premier/Optronika now TT fan and I have one word that sums up TT "integrety" it says alot that they will honor the Premier/Optronika brands!
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Yes, I did confirm that the premier product was "fixed" to alleviate the parallax issue a while back. When exactly, I'm not sure. Eric Eichhorst, the senior engineer at TT, came over when Premier was purchased. So that effectively puts it to bed, in regard to if there were any design changes before Premier was purchased. Anyone that bought a Premier in the last few years, likely has the "fix" implemented. Most certainly those models with the slip-scale turret. I do not know if that "fix" was the thickening of the main tube or what. I do know that the new TT scopes have a thicker tube, and a redesigned parallax/focus system.
If you do have an early model Premier, and are worried about it, you can certainly get a hold of them.
Scatsob, I believe I have a 50mm ARD or two floating around the shop right now. It should screw right on your Premier. You can PM me or email me your info, and I'll get one out to you.
If you do have an early model Premier, and are worried about it, you can certainly get a hold of them.
Scatsob, I believe I have a 50mm ARD or two floating around the shop right now. It should screw right on your Premier. You can PM me or email me your info, and I'll get one out to you.
Look nice but the $4250 is what seems mesmerizing to me on an introductory scope line. Hope they dont price themselves out. Need a price to encourage many of us to move away from S&B, but that price wont do it for me. NF, Steiner, and Khales are going the correct direction. Too much competition at the top tier to jump to $4250 right from the start. I dont understand this strategy.
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the old premier discount was minimal straight through premier, was a flat amount, so it was ok for the light tactical but was crappy for the 5-25 compared to what you could get from the other high end companies.
The TT scopes looked great. I really like some of the new changes they have done to the scope. At $4,250 it is a chunk of change and is priced more than the proven 5-25X56 S&B PMII scopes. I plan on carrying the TT line, but I have also picked up S&B and Steiner to help supplement my sales for those that are not willing to break the $4,000 mark on a scope. The last Premier Heritage was a great scope and easily justifiable compared to its competitors at its last pricing level. I wish TT could have kept its price more inline with the Heritage.
New dealer orders for the NF Beast are not being accepted right now. NF also has not released pricing on the BEAST for new orders. Hopefully they do not follow suit with a significant price hike.
New dealer orders for the NF Beast are not being accepted right now. NF also has not released pricing on the BEAST for new orders. Hopefully they do not follow suit with a significant price hike.
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It's encouraging that the only negative thing being mentioned, is price.
Fellas I understand that it stinks to have the best stuff cost so much, but that is the world we live in. You want a better product than S&B, but want to pay less. That's not very realistic. The best things are often the most expensive. Personally, I think S&B is one of the worst values in riflescopes. They tunnel at low magnification. Their turrets are lackluster, with clicks not as good as even a Premier... certainly not in the same ballpark as a TT. They have a diopter adjustment that is too easy to accidentally move. (especially when using a BC cover) They have less adjustment available on the turret. Their illumination control location limits mounting options. They do not have a tool-less zero stop adjustment.
Let's face reality here. It's not 10 years ago anymore. Once upon a time, S&B was the best game in town, but now it faces stiff competition. From a pure feature's standpoint, the TT products are better in every respect, except price. It remains to be seen if they run properly under abuse. If they don't, I expect them to be gone as quickly as they arrived. Yet I don't see that happening.
Fellas I understand that it stinks to have the best stuff cost so much, but that is the world we live in. You want a better product than S&B, but want to pay less. That's not very realistic. The best things are often the most expensive. Personally, I think S&B is one of the worst values in riflescopes. They tunnel at low magnification. Their turrets are lackluster, with clicks not as good as even a Premier... certainly not in the same ballpark as a TT. They have a diopter adjustment that is too easy to accidentally move. (especially when using a BC cover) They have less adjustment available on the turret. Their illumination control location limits mounting options. They do not have a tool-less zero stop adjustment.
Let's face reality here. It's not 10 years ago anymore. Once upon a time, S&B was the best game in town, but now it faces stiff competition. From a pure feature's standpoint, the TT products are better in every respect, except price. It remains to be seen if they run properly under abuse. If they don't, I expect them to be gone as quickly as they arrived. Yet I don't see that happening.
I cannot see what the 315M has that demands a $650 premium over the Premier LT. Let's hope the pricing posted is MAP, whatever, and the street price gets back into our atmosphere.
I guess I'm smoking the same stuff as orkan. Ahhh...what was it's name now.....????....shit I can't recall or he has read my letters 'cause that's exactly what I think about S&B and I could even ad a couple of more aspects regarding the optics but I won't for now.
So they took the premier, tweaked a few things and raised the price $1000??? Where does that $1000 increase come from? Most of the scope design was already done, so it can't be from r&d.
