The hash marks being off was not a ridiculous assumption. It was a plainly visible fact and wasn't meant to be inflammatory but rather a query as to why a company would send a sales rep a SCOPE to review, take pictures of and post on a forum for all to see that the "centerpiece of the SCOPE" was misaligned.
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Rifle Scopes Tangent Theta - TT525P
- Thread starter orkan
- Start date
Sorry it's not up to your specs. Good thing you can't afford one, so you won't need to be burdened by it.
I don't get the haters on this thread. Someone posted a first hand review of a product that was positive, it doesn't make him a fan boy or an employee. In fact, I would think that a guy would think twice about posting any review on this site(especially if it was something he is selling) because of the backlash he might receive if the product ends up a flop. I admit that I am partial to the TT because of its Premier roots as I've had great luck with my PH. As far as price goes, my PH was $3600, my PMII 5-25 was $3400 and my PMII 5-20 was $3900 so $4250 is not out to lunch(still expensive though). What is out to lunch is the $7000+ for the S&B 3-27 and the Henny 3-26.
As far as the comparables....Vortex? Really? While it may be a good scope for the money(if this one pans out), they have a long way to go to even be in the conversation with the big boys and judging by their previous offerings their warranty department will once again be busier than the elves on Christmas eve.
I will give the TT a chance once I am ready for a new scope if reviews come back positive.
As far as the comparables....Vortex? Really? While it may be a good scope for the money(if this one pans out), they have a long way to go to even be in the conversation with the big boys and judging by their previous offerings their warranty department will once again be busier than the elves on Christmas eve.
I will give the TT a chance once I am ready for a new scope if reviews come back positive.
Ok, after reading the review, and all the comments, here's my thoughts;
I currently own S&B and Premier scopes, and unless TT starts to offer more reticle options (i.e. MSR reticle), I will not be buying a TT scope. You know, S&B offers just about every reticle ever made. I sold my Premier 5-25's because I didn't care for the XR reticle. I'm keeping my 3-15's because I do like the Gen 2 Mildot, and feel they are awesome scopes.
If I did buy a TT scope, and the index mark did not properly align with the hash marks, the scope would be immediately sent back to the retailer I bought it from for an immediate replacement or refund (including shipping costs).
TT needs to get their prices inline with the competition, or they're going to either struggle, or rely on Military and Govt. Contracts, and be mostly ignored by the shooting public, just my opinion.
Orkan, great review, and I hope TT does succeed with a great scope.
I currently own S&B and Premier scopes, and unless TT starts to offer more reticle options (i.e. MSR reticle), I will not be buying a TT scope. You know, S&B offers just about every reticle ever made. I sold my Premier 5-25's because I didn't care for the XR reticle. I'm keeping my 3-15's because I do like the Gen 2 Mildot, and feel they are awesome scopes.
If I did buy a TT scope, and the index mark did not properly align with the hash marks, the scope would be immediately sent back to the retailer I bought it from for an immediate replacement or refund (including shipping costs).
TT needs to get their prices inline with the competition, or they're going to either struggle, or rely on Military and Govt. Contracts, and be mostly ignored by the shooting public, just my opinion.
Orkan, great review, and I hope TT does succeed with a great scope.
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I hope they succeed, I'd love to see a N. American scope manufacturer do well especially if it leads to a greater variety of scopes. At the current price tag the off-kilter elevation knob would drive me nuts; I would not be able to live with that.
Fanboy'n hard in this post. My personal impression is that you have some sort of vested interest in TT....the way you're pushing these things and talking them up while diminishing the obvious issue pointed out in this thread makes me question the credibility of the review. If the product is as good as you say it'll speak for itself.
Fanboy'n hard in this post. My personal impression is that you have some sort of vested interest in TT....the way you're pushing these things and talking them up while diminishing the obvious issue pointed out in this thread makes me question the credibility of the review. If the product is as good as you say it'll speak for itself.
Complain about haters and post this? Might want to rethink that complaint and look in the mirror. Ever handled or used the Vortex Razor II or are you doing the same as you complain about others doing in this thread?
And so you know, my Razor II knob's numbers line up perfectly for $1700 less.
Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch over my post I want to clarify it wasnt a slam on Orkan or TT but just meant to point out som hipocracy on the part of the poster.
Anyone who knows me knows I am an optics guy and my team mates call me the scope whore lol I have owned and/or used everything from super snipers up to S&Bs. If there is an issue with the knob being off it could be as simple as a knob engraving being off as S&B's problem was a couple years back. I am interested to see the TT in person and try it out and thats why i have been following this thread so don't take my post as a slam on them.
Anyone who knows me knows I am an optics guy and my team mates call me the scope whore lol I have owned and/or used everything from super snipers up to S&Bs. If there is an issue with the knob being off it could be as simple as a knob engraving being off as S&B's problem was a couple years back. I am interested to see the TT in person and try it out and thats why i have been following this thread so don't take my post as a slam on them.
Those $7K scopes from SB (3-27) and Henny, I don't think they were geared toward civilians, so those should be taken out of the equation. To me SB is more inline at the $4K mark for their 5-25 than TT. Although, the SB 5-25 has ticked people off with recent quality control or pricing, they still seem to be the standard. I'd rather have a two year warranty from a company that will be here 5-10 years from now, than a lifetime warranty from a startup, but that's just me.
I currently have a Vortex ll 4.5-27 EBR, SB 4-16 P4F, SB 5-25 MSR. In the past I've owned both the 3-15 and 5-25 Premiers and loved them before their last MSRP pricing. My current favorite is the Vortex. I'm just happy I got it for $2,300, rather than paying $3,600 for a SB
Ok, fine... the Tangent Theta P-series wasn't geared toward civilians either. Andy made this clear way back in January. It's in the name even. "Professional Marksmen" Doesn't change the fact that civilians buy them, and TT will treat their civilian customers just as good as their military customers. The idea that those other $7k scopes should not be compared is absolutely absurd. That S&B is beat by the TT525P in every category except max magnification. The Hensoldt in my opinion is the only other scope out there that will give the TT's a run for their money. The fact that they are $3k more money, will weigh on the decision a serious purchaser is making whether you think it should or not.
For those still claiming I have a "vested interest," wake the fuck up. I can't be bought. Period. If money was the deciding factor in my life, I'd be on an entirely different path. I say something bad about a product or company, and you people crawl out of the woodwork and tell me that as a business owner I should just keep my mouth shut because it costs me money. I say something good about a product or company, and you people say I'm "vested" and with money on the line I'll say anything. Well you can't have it both ways assholes. Get a singular clue.
918V, here's the pic you asked for:
The clicks aren't dead perfect with the indicator on this scope. They aren't so bad as it appears in the video though. The camera angles are making it look a lot worse than it is. They are clicking in the same place throughout the entire travel, but they are off by maybe 6-ten thousandths or so. Nothing that would lead to me not knowing which click I'm on. I did like the slip-scale feature on the Premier's for this reason though. You could line them up just in perfect alignment without much effort. I'm going to talk with TT this week about it. I'll let you guys know what the response is.
Thanks for the pic. The transition is nice and square. I had a scope where that transition looked like the main tube pinched inward just before flaring outward. It looked like a POS considering the cost.
Looking at the inside of the turret cap, there are three torx screws. I wonder if there is enough wiggle room to make the cap line up right?
Very observant, and I bet you are right. That's exactly what I was thinking, but I don't want to put a screw driver to something before I check with TT.
Orkan, thanks for the review. It reaffirms my decision to purchase one.
I, for one, am comfortable with the TT's provenance and lineage and am sure it will earn its worth.
I consider myself a realist (so, an optimist with prior experience) and I trust that TT will work out any bugs and continue to improve the product. Ultimately, no company starts out with a business model to fail. I'll let their product and their ongoing management of that product speak for itself without speculating about some inferred incompetence or malignancy. And, if I'm wrong, well...it was my mistake to make.
So please, feel free to post any pics, vids, etc. on the TT and know that there are those of us that do want to know more about these scopes and have the ability to make our own decisions.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I, for one, am comfortable with the TT's provenance and lineage and am sure it will earn its worth.
I consider myself a realist (so, an optimist with prior experience) and I trust that TT will work out any bugs and continue to improve the product. Ultimately, no company starts out with a business model to fail. I'll let their product and their ongoing management of that product speak for itself without speculating about some inferred incompetence or malignancy. And, if I'm wrong, well...it was my mistake to make.
So please, feel free to post any pics, vids, etc. on the TT and know that there are those of us that do want to know more about these scopes and have the ability to make our own decisions.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Orkan, thanks for the review and all the information you have provided. If the glass is as good as Premier's then I would be happy. I really liked the contrast and resolution my PH 3-15 had. Do you know why TT chose to use the "wedge" marking on the parallax knob after it seemed to bring such negative feedback on the Premiers? I'm aware, parallax doesn't typically coincide with labeled yardage marks, but I do like having some kind of reference points. Also surprised that the "stowable" illumination knob wasn't kept? Maybe unable to with internal changes?
Ohh really, does TT have any military contracts in effect right now? I'm just curious to know who they know in the military? I'm sure the military thinks the same way I do, they must be totally fuckin impressed with a TT scope to sign on to a startup company.
On another note, If the SB 3-27 and the new Henny were taken out of the civilian lineup right now, I'm sure both companies will survive financially. I'm not sure the same can be said about TT, so wake up.
BTW, if the TT is better than the SB, I applaud them. It took another company 20 years to meet or exceed every aspect of the SB-5-25.
* I have nothing against TT. I just wish the review was done by any other person other than a TT vendor. Even though you say they are facts, I don't know you personally, so to me it sounds like a sales pitch, no offense.
Hooligan, not to worry. I won't be letting the idiotic detractors interrupt my enthusiasm. It's always those same assholes bitching and causing problems in every thread. They keep it up, they'll soon learn they've lost the ability to post at all.
Now, having spent some time with it, I guess I'm indifferent. I hardly ever use the illumination, so I'd have been ok with a larger parallax knob vs the easier to get at illumination control. In light of all the other positives, I can deal. If you liked the Premier, you'll love these!
It's always those same assholes bitching and causing problems in every thread. They keep it up, they'll soon learn they've lost the ability to post at all. I'm not sure on why they chose to do it how they did it, but I'll ask them if they had specific reasons. I run the parallax knob while looking through the scope, and let it tell me when things are right... so the lack of yardage on the parallax doesn't bother me at all. Also, remember it's only half a turn. On the illumination, I resisted the new design originally... but in usage found it didn't bother me at all. TT would tell you that I bitched about it at SHOT though.
Now, having spent some time with it, I guess I'm indifferent. I hardly ever use the illumination, so I'd have been ok with a larger parallax knob vs the easier to get at illumination control. In light of all the other positives, I can deal. If you liked the Premier, you'll love these!
No offense? You outright say "I don't believe anything you're saying, because you're just a salesman," and then say no offense? What fucking world are you living in? I'm reminded of the scene from Talledega Nights:
<dl><dd>Mr. Dennit: Ricky, your little obscene gesture is going to cost you 100 points. Do you know how much that costs us in sponsorship dollars?</dd><dd>Ricky: With all due respect, Mr. Dennit, I had no idea you'd gotten experimental surgery to have your balls removed.</dd><dd>Mr. Dennit: What did you just say to me?</dd><dd>Ricky: What? I said it with all due respect!</dd><dd>Mr. Dennit: Just because you say that doesn't mean you get to say whatever you want to say to me!
</dd><dd>Ricky: It sure as hell does!</dd><dd>Mr. Dennit: No, it doesn't--</dd><dd>Ricky: It's in the Geneva Conventions, look it up!
</dd></dl>
As if the military using something, or not using something, is a measure of its worth. You ever serve in the military? There are other reviewers which will be publishing their findings in the coming weeks. Though most of them don't post on the hide because of people like you whom have something negative to say about everything. So if you have something factual to say, carry on... otherwise get your ass out of my thread.
I will throw my opinion in on this, and that opinion is based on my discussions with Andrew W @ SHOT.
As many know, I have been highly critical of the original Premier line, and that criticism was not just on the internet, I have addressed it in person on more than one occasion.
That said, I was able to talk to Andrew @ Shot and go over the punch list of things they addressed with the new TT Line.
Before I start, understand, they didn't just rescue the Premier line, they built a whole new product and facility around the Launch the scope with the TT name. They built an entire infrastructure behind it. So, now that this scope is getting ready to be released, I believe it needs to be separated from the original product and original company. It's apples and oranges now. Remember too this is not their first venture into scopes. They have a history of working with optics.
My discussion focused on the mechanics of the scope. I wanted to know what was addressed and how it was addressed, with specifics. He was all too happy to explain front to back what they did to remedy any lingering problems found in the Premier line. He went over the turret redesign, as well as other elements like the parallax. This is key, they didn't pretend there wasn't bugs in the original, he took them on head on. it was priority one.
The price point is in keeping with Tier One optics, it started with the Trijicon which first crossed the $4k mark, then you had the Hensoldt, with S&B following close behind. Clearly these companies understand the end user is more informed and is looking at things on a whole new level. So in order to keep the quality and viability of the company the costs are going up. No longer can they cut corners. Many of these companies recognize this, look at Leupold, their 25x scope is 2.5x the cost of the Mark 4 line. Nightforce, the BEAST is up there with cost. That trend is easy to see, and understand.
It's pretty easy to sit back and criticize this companies. Especially when they move beyond our financial reach. That tends to piss a lot of people off, and I get it. Hell when I got the Hensoldt 3-26x I wanted to hate it, but found I really like the scope. I wanted to hate it because, "how dare they charge $7k" it was my initial reaction before even touching the scope. Put it your hand and you go, "wow, that's good".
I have been quietly telling people the TT is gonna be the one to watch. Sure there are a lot of quality products out there, Vortex, NF, Kahles, S&B, etc, the list is certainly long. But that is because each new scope has to out do the top dog from the year before. Yes we can split hairs when it comes to our opinions, one guy favors the S&B, the other the Hensoldt, the next guy the March, and the value minded love the Vortex. But in the end we win doesn't matter what you favor. We have a greater variety than every before. When I started SH you had 4 choices, NF with the NXS in SFP, Leupold Mk IV, US Optics or S&B that was it... Nothing else worked for the Tactical Shooter. Consider that list today and you'll see why the prices are climbing and the quality is at a level never seen previously. I see these comparison as trying to decide a winner by fractions of a second without the luxury of a stop watch. It's that close, in fact too close to call with any certainty.
It's easy to dislike something you haven't put hands on, we all do for a variety of reason. But I see this scope as the next true contender.
As many know, I have been highly critical of the original Premier line, and that criticism was not just on the internet, I have addressed it in person on more than one occasion.
That said, I was able to talk to Andrew @ Shot and go over the punch list of things they addressed with the new TT Line.
Before I start, understand, they didn't just rescue the Premier line, they built a whole new product and facility around the Launch the scope with the TT name. They built an entire infrastructure behind it. So, now that this scope is getting ready to be released, I believe it needs to be separated from the original product and original company. It's apples and oranges now. Remember too this is not their first venture into scopes. They have a history of working with optics.
My discussion focused on the mechanics of the scope. I wanted to know what was addressed and how it was addressed, with specifics. He was all too happy to explain front to back what they did to remedy any lingering problems found in the Premier line. He went over the turret redesign, as well as other elements like the parallax. This is key, they didn't pretend there wasn't bugs in the original, he took them on head on. it was priority one.
The price point is in keeping with Tier One optics, it started with the Trijicon which first crossed the $4k mark, then you had the Hensoldt, with S&B following close behind. Clearly these companies understand the end user is more informed and is looking at things on a whole new level. So in order to keep the quality and viability of the company the costs are going up. No longer can they cut corners. Many of these companies recognize this, look at Leupold, their 25x scope is 2.5x the cost of the Mark 4 line. Nightforce, the BEAST is up there with cost. That trend is easy to see, and understand.
It's pretty easy to sit back and criticize this companies. Especially when they move beyond our financial reach. That tends to piss a lot of people off, and I get it. Hell when I got the Hensoldt 3-26x I wanted to hate it, but found I really like the scope. I wanted to hate it because, "how dare they charge $7k" it was my initial reaction before even touching the scope. Put it your hand and you go, "wow, that's good".
I have been quietly telling people the TT is gonna be the one to watch. Sure there are a lot of quality products out there, Vortex, NF, Kahles, S&B, etc, the list is certainly long. But that is because each new scope has to out do the top dog from the year before. Yes we can split hairs when it comes to our opinions, one guy favors the S&B, the other the Hensoldt, the next guy the March, and the value minded love the Vortex. But in the end we win doesn't matter what you favor. We have a greater variety than every before. When I started SH you had 4 choices, NF with the NXS in SFP, Leupold Mk IV, US Optics or S&B that was it... Nothing else worked for the Tactical Shooter. Consider that list today and you'll see why the prices are climbing and the quality is at a level never seen previously. I see these comparison as trying to decide a winner by fractions of a second without the luxury of a stop watch. It's that close, in fact too close to call with any certainty.
It's easy to dislike something you haven't put hands on, we all do for a variety of reason. But I see this scope as the next true contender.
Pathetic. The only other negative thing I've said on the Hide other than TT's offering was about the AI AT scope rail. I made multiple negative comments, and they have since changed it out, go figure.
I said the scope price seemed out of line from a startup company, but thats my opinion, and I haven't even touched the scope-only you have, so people can judge my comment the way they want. It's nice you went out of your way to write a review, and take those great images of the scope, and the people applaud you for that.
I just sold my Premier 5-25 on here a couple weeks ago, b/c I honestly was thinking of buying a TT 5-25. I started a thread about a month ago, and got little information about it. I bet you by the end of the year, if I hear great reviews on it from respectable people, I will end up buying it. Easy.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...s/266144-optronika-premier-what-happened.html
But, you get so offensive all the time, not just on this thread, but on others. I'm just here laughing at you, its fuckin comical. It seems every comment you make, you have lost a customer. You may say you don't care, but you do. I've never seen any other retailer act like you do.
There you have it. I don't think its too much to ask for people to actually have touched something before complaining about it. They can complain about price, as thats their own choice. Yet to complain about the company and the product, when they've never touched the product, reeks of ignorance of the highest order.
It's not a startup,
it's got a pedigree and they have a history, have you ever heard of Elcan ? Forget the fact it was engineered with Optronika prior to the GSO change, those guys are the brain trust behind S&B.
This is hardly a startup situation
it's got a pedigree and they have a history, have you ever heard of Elcan ? Forget the fact it was engineered with Optronika prior to the GSO change, those guys are the brain trust behind S&B.
This is hardly a startup situation
Customers like you, I don't want. I've made this abundantly clear. That's why TT has lots of other dealers. You can go buy your scope from them. Yet I think there's a place for guys like me that will stand up call bullshit when guys with zero first hand experience are talking from their ass about something they've never touched. Doesn't surprise me that no other retailer behaves as I do. They have different goals in mind. You want every dealer to be the same? I wonder what the world would be like if guys like you had their way. Our ability to service our customers speaks for itself. We go above and beyond what most retailers are capable of. We simply have an entirely different structure than most of them do. Lots of good dealers out there if you don't like us. For every one of YOU I gladly lose as a customer, I gain 2 more whom are each 2x more valuable to me than you are.
Like I said in another thread, nothing short of a shotgun blast to the face can get those with no experience to shut their mouths.
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The, i've never seen another retailer act like you do, was meant in a good way. And, since, I first learned about TT from your posts you'll get my business, if you want.
but... but... the lines don't line up... the lines....
they don't line up on my Hensoldt either... but Hensoldt is used in some mil capacity so it must be 'on purpose' and ok...
I thought Orkan's review was fair and factual and it wasn't riddled with crap like 'cool' and 'sick' as descriptions. I'm particularly interested in his points about parallax. Wonder if Ilya will get a chance to do a review as well.
Well color me completely fucking confused. If I've misinterpreted your comments green, I'm truly sorry. I'm just really short on patience for people bitching about things they haven't touched today. Of course I will appreciate your business if we are in agreement, and work my ass off to ensure you don't regret it. Though I'd never want a customer that didn't see things the way I see them. That's just a recipe for disaster and I've found its far better to weed those out up front, rather than take their money.
I've got 500rnds of creedmoor to go reload... so that will calm me down.
I've got 500rnds of creedmoor to go reload... so that will calm me down.
Lowlight gave a long, measured response and a positive review. That certainly means something to me since he's used and discarded more scopes than I'll ever own.
Nonetheless, I hope Tangent Theta gives more thought to its price point. I use high end scopes (S&B, USO, Kahles, Premier) but the price point TT is at is just too much risk for me. The MO for the industry has always seemed to give reduced prices for a couple years for people to try out before upping their prices. TT is starting at an ambitious price point, allowing very few of us the ability to try the product out. Unless TT was coming in under S&B, and offering an MSR reticle, I just can't see spending that much for the scope. Just my 2 cents. I want one, to be sure, but it's simply too much of a gamble to me.
Nonetheless, I hope Tangent Theta gives more thought to its price point. I use high end scopes (S&B, USO, Kahles, Premier) but the price point TT is at is just too much risk for me. The MO for the industry has always seemed to give reduced prices for a couple years for people to try out before upping their prices. TT is starting at an ambitious price point, allowing very few of us the ability to try the product out. Unless TT was coming in under S&B, and offering an MSR reticle, I just can't see spending that much for the scope. Just my 2 cents. I want one, to be sure, but it's simply too much of a gamble to me.
Costing $4000+ doesn't make a tier one SCOPE. All the reviews in the world from manufacturers and sales reps don't create a quality product. Only the end user can speak from a quality stand point. The end user decides which scopes are tier one and which scopes are not and that list can change from end user to end user. Just because it takes $4000 for one company to produce what they think is a quality product doesn't mean another can't produce a product just as good or better for far less. I'm not saying the TT is a bad SCOPE, but it will be only those that buy one that can opine to that.
And how is the quality in question when the same guys who designed and built the S&B 5-25x did this one?
I would say say based on my experience its a Tier One Scope. I handled it, I know the history, I spoke candidly with both sides behind this product.
I stand behind it, proclaiming it's not ignores everything about it that matters. The price is what it is, but the pedigree speaks for itself and cannot be dismissed because "you" haven't touched it.
I would say say based on my experience its a Tier One Scope. I handled it, I know the history, I spoke candidly with both sides behind this product.
I stand behind it, proclaiming it's not ignores everything about it that matters. The price is what it is, but the pedigree speaks for itself and cannot be dismissed because "you" haven't touched it.
Frank,
I am looking forward to your review. Your words are always straight up, you are not selling anything. Hopefully you can get your hands on one and see if they really did address the issues you mentioned in previous threads. Your first hand experience I trust. Thank you.
You missed the point. I wasn't calling the quality of the SCOPE into question. I'm saying only the end user can decide if a product is of high quality or not. Some may "touch" it and thank it is of high quality, others may not, but only they can decide.
That is just stupid... ^^^^
There is nothing that leads anyone to believe there would be a question of quality with this scope
If someone "touches" and doesn't believe it is something of quality, I would call them into question before the scope.
Plus, how am I not an "end user" ...
There is nothing that leads anyone to believe there would be a question of quality with this scope
If someone "touches" and doesn't believe it is something of quality, I would call them into question before the scope.
Plus, how am I not an "end user" ...
You know, you may want to reassess your critical thinking approach...
There's nothing in Orkan's review that is shady or 'slick'. Every fact about the functionality of the product that he presented he explained, compared and verified as much as could be. To put everything he says in question because he sells the scope is very harsh given his open approach.
There are sponsored shooters here who have sworn blind about one optic to suddenly switch when their sponsorship deals change and suddenly what was 'awesome' became riddled with QA issues etc. These guys are also 'end users' as well...
I won't be switching from my Hennies just yet but if you compare how he's reviewed this TT scope compared to 90% of the reviews here and elsewhere it's head and shoulders more informative, open and downright useful for making a decision either way.
People here applaud industry professionals participating on this board and yet silly views as the above kicks sand in the face of vendors who try and actually contribute as well as sell.
By the way, you know that Frank is mortal and his shit stinks too yeah? I've even heard he's somewhat short. Holy fuck, who are you going to believe now!?!
Yes & No,
1. It's a Canadian Company now, it's no longer the same company.
2. While Optronika did design the Premier they were basically subject to the management of Premier as well as being underfunded.
You can't correct problems if you cannot afford too, which is basically the problem with Premier. MisManagement.
TT is fully funded, and has a long history with noted successes. They contracted Optronika to address the problems with the Premier and were able, as well as willing to correct them.
Optronika is now GSO, part of Minox. To draw a comparison, if you wanted to start a scope company, you would either go to Light Optical Works in Japan, or you can go to GSO and have them design your scope... how good of a scope depends on how deep your pockets are with either company. You can spec a scope out anywhere on the quality scale, the question is can you pay for it. And what will it cost to build and sell.
Funding is the key component here, that was the missing ingredient with Premier
1. It's a Canadian Company now, it's no longer the same company.
2. While Optronika did design the Premier they were basically subject to the management of Premier as well as being underfunded.
You can't correct problems if you cannot afford too, which is basically the problem with Premier. MisManagement.
TT is fully funded, and has a long history with noted successes. They contracted Optronika to address the problems with the Premier and were able, as well as willing to correct them.
Optronika is now GSO, part of Minox. To draw a comparison, if you wanted to start a scope company, you would either go to Light Optical Works in Japan, or you can go to GSO and have them design your scope... how good of a scope depends on how deep your pockets are with either company. You can spec a scope out anywhere on the quality scale, the question is can you pay for it. And what will it cost to build and sell.
Funding is the key component here, that was the missing ingredient with Premier
Just to make sure. The optronika(sp) folks did the design for the Premier version right?
So who do we blame about the crushed tubes and turrets that broke off?
My point here is...it can be a solid design, but if the assembly folks use shitty materials or cut corners......best design in the world ain't gonna be squat then.
So who do we blame about the crushed tubes and turrets that broke off?
My point here is...it can be a solid design, but if the assembly folks use shitty materials or cut corners......best design in the world ain't gonna be squat then.
The review Orkan posted is solid as they come.
I would trust it, in fact so much so if the finished product fell short of expectations he would be barking in Andrew's ear over it.
I would trust it, in fact so much so if the finished product fell short of expectations he would be barking in Andrew's ear over it.
If you have had the chance to use one then you are a end user and if you think they are of high quality that is great. But someone else may use it and decide it is not of good quality, or not of good enough quality to justify the price.
If a guy has $5000 laying around to buy any 5x25 SCOPE he wants. He gets to go to a range and shoot a beast all day. The next day he shoots a S&B all day, the next he shoots a TT. all day. Then he gets one whole day to think about. He may decide the S&B and the TT are not of good enough quality to justify the extra money those scopes cost and pick the beast. He is not saying those scopes are of bad quality, just not enough to justify the cost. And what I'm saying is no one can make that call but him.
Who the hell cares what "they decide"
That doesn't say anything, it's like choosing a Mercedes and saying the Audi is not in the same class ... it doesn't work that way.
Just because someone chooses to spend their money on Product A over Product B that doesn't mean it is not a Tier One Product, it means there is more than one Tier One products to choose from and they decided to pick A instead of B ... it means absolutely positively NOTHING
That doesn't say anything, it's like choosing a Mercedes and saying the Audi is not in the same class ... it doesn't work that way.
Just because someone chooses to spend their money on Product A over Product B that doesn't mean it is not a Tier One Product, it means there is more than one Tier One products to choose from and they decided to pick A instead of B ... it means absolutely positively NOTHING
Sure it does. It means there was something about the other scopes they didn't like. SCOPE a May say they have the best engineers in the world and they have designed the best turrets in the world. Should I take their word for it or should I go out and see for myself. And when I see for myself I like the turrets on the other SCOPE better and choose that SCOPE to buy.
If I would have listened to the engineers of the first SCOPE I would not have gotten the SCOPE that I thought was of better quality. Which is why I say reviews are nice but ultimately we decide what is of better quality, not the company selling them.
People choose shit for a variety of reasons, it means nothing in the big picture.
Some people will choose S&B simply for the NAME ... nothing else.
Maybe it is a reticle design, which doesn't say anything about the quality of the scope
Someone else may value the "weight" while another guys may focus on Length ...
It's completely random and up the individual, but in no way does that factor into the quality of the scope.
Some people will choose S&B simply for the NAME ... nothing else.
Maybe it is a reticle design, which doesn't say anything about the quality of the scope
Someone else may value the "weight" while another guys may focus on Length ...
It's completely random and up the individual, but in no way does that factor into the quality of the scope.
