Rifle Scopes Tangent Theta - TT525P

[SNAFU308]

i'm not sure how personal preference affects the quality of a scope........just because you PREFERRED another product doesn't mean the other product is inferior. We are spoilt for choice these days with a good deal of high end optics available and everyone is going to have different needs and wants in what they choose to buy. I've had people they couldn't see a difference between my Steiner and my S&B whilst I noticed distinct differences and have my own opinion about which I think is better but that is just my opinion based on a limited sample size.

I also find the ones who are quick to criticise the S&B and some of my other high end scopes are the ones who can't afford to buy one and are trying in their own mind to convince themselves the scope they get is just as good. We don't all have unlimited budgets and I won't be buying a Henny or S&B at $7000 because for me I just don't think it is worth it for what I use it for and don't think there is $3000 worth of advantage over the scopes available in the $3000-$4500 range

The TT certainly looks interesting and hopefully some trickle over here to Australia in the next 12 months so I can check one out and put it side by side with my S&B. Thank you Okran for the review and your thoughts based on your time with the scope and the detailed pics of a scope that not many have seen much of yet.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

(1) Nice write up and (2) LOL, this thread went to shit quick. WTF, he posted a review on a high end scope and didn't even get a reach around by the Chevy Cavalier crowd. No wonder the most popular threads are shit like Vortex blah blah blah vs. Bushnell blah blah blah vs. SWFA blah blah blah. Comes to down to your audience. Basically, everybody on this forum owns a Tasco family lineage scope in some form or another whether they want to believe it or not. You don't see this sort of shit on astronomy optic forums. Everybody appreciates a good scope.

 

[Jrb572]

Maybe someone already asked. On the 3-15 what is the difference between the M or P model? Also are they available in CW adjustments?

 

[orkan]

Maybe someone already asked. On the 3-15 what is the difference between the M or P model? Also are they available in CW adjustments?

The M-series is a lightweight semi-tactical scope. 30mm tube instead of 34. 12 mils per turn instead of 28. Tools required to adjust zero stop, instead of tool-less as the P-series. The 315P has all the features of the 525P, just different magnification. The M-series is going to be my primary light-weight hunting rifle scope. Anxiously awaiting them too!

 

[Jrb572]

Thanks. They look nice. I would like to see one compared to my 4-16 Henny. One day maybe I will get to see one in person. Good luck with the line.

 

[Rooster721]

Orkan,

I may have missed it being mentioned, but were you sent (one, 5-25) so far, just to test out and get a look at? Or the first of a whole shipment already??

 

[orkan]

Orkan,

I may have missed it being mentioned, but were you sent (one, 5-25) so far, just to test out and get a look at? Or the first of a whole shipment already??

Just one. Looking forward to more. Wanting a larger sample size to check out for a better idea of what all scopes will be like. We'll be leaving the boxes sealed for those that have pre-ordered and shipping as soon as they land, but I have several local customers I'll be mounting scopes for... so I'll get to check out about 6-8 of them real good.

 

[Rooster721]

Just one. Looking forward to more. Wanting a larger sample size to check out for a better idea of what all scopes will be like. We'll be leaving the boxes sealed for those that have pre-ordered and shipping as soon as they land, but I have several local customers I'll be mounting scopes for... so I'll get to check out about 6-8 of them real good.

Has Tangent given a date as to when the entire shipments will be reaching vendors, like yourselves?

 

[Dead Nutz]

I won't be buying a Henny or S&B at $7000 because for me I just don't think it is worth it for what I use it for and don't think there is $3000 worth of advantage over the scopes available in the $3000-$4500 range.

There ya go. You just said what I've been saying all along. Just change to word advantage to quality. You are not saying the S&B' s are of bad quality. Just not good enough quality to justify another $3000.

 

[Lowlight]

tYou still don't know what quality means and are using the term wrong ...

There is nothing about the "quality" of the scope that has anything to with that increase in price.

In some cases the increase in price is because of who they actually market it too, as well as to cover R&D and other things that were spec'd out by the military.

The fact a civilian consumer doesn't see the advantage in spending an extra $3k for what they consider a very similar optic to a lower price model has nothing to do with "quality", and everything to do with value for them.

Consider the PSR Rifles, they are really expensive, and yet you can buy an AX338MC for 1/2 the cost of a PSR, yet all the PSRs are sold out. That cost was due to the contract and not about the quality of the rifle.

The Unertl MST-100 was sold to the USMC for $700, look it up, today the copies of that scope sell for $2500, and the ones refurbished by USO can even sell for more. It was a $700 scope in it's day.... that extra money has nothing to do with quality.

I would not expect a lot of $7000 Hensoldts to sell, I think everyone would agree, it's value to the average shooter is not worth the cost. But then again it was designed for a specific contract and Hensoldt does not market to civilians. The fact a company will offer it to us doesn't change that fact. It's there if you want it -- and I will say, since I own one, it's a very good scope. I like it a lot. But to a layman with very little insight, I can show you the new Vortex 4-27x and you'd be hard pressed to see the $4000 difference, the size, weight, power, features are all very similar, so you can spend $7k for the Hensoldt or $2.5k for the Vortex and that doesn't have a thing to do with quality

 

[SNAFU308]

There ya go. You just said what I've been saying all along. Just change to word advantage to quality. You are not saying the S&B' s are of bad quality. Just not good enough quality to justify another $3000.

Don't cherry pick part of my statement and then twist the words to suit your own views. I never said it those scope weren't quality I stated I wouldn't be paying for the extra features that $ would get me has absolutely nothing to quality at all. At the end of the day who cares if you don't like the scope, think it's too expensive or that a cheaper scope will achieve what you want then go with that and then you can tell us all how great your scope is and how it is better than some scope you've never handled.

I haven't seen the new TT yet and as such have no opinion yet but it does look interesting and I would like to put it against my S&B 5-25 and compare. Until I get to do that I appreciate those such as Orkan posting up their reviews of the scope based on their EXPERIENCE with it not speculation based on internet misinformation

 

[TestnDoc]

When will these scopes be available to purchase? I love SB, but have a great light tactical Premiere 3-15.

 

[Dead Nutz]

tYou still don't know what quality means and are using the term wrong ...

There is nothing about the "quality" of the scope that has anything to with that increase in price.

In some cases the increase in price is because of who they actually market it too, as well as to cover R&D and other things that were spec'd out by the military.

The fact a civilian consumer doesn't see the advantage in spending an extra $3k for what they consider a very similar optic to a lower price model has nothing to do with "quality", and everything to do with value for them.

Consider the PSR Rifles, they are really expensive, and yet you can buy an AX338MC for 1/2 the cost of a PSR, yet all the PSRs are sold out. That cost was due to the contract and not about the quality of the rifle.

The Unertl MST-100 was sold to the USMC for $700, look it up, today the copies of that scope sell for $2500, and the ones refurbished by USO can even sell for more. It was a $700 scope in it's day.... that extra money has nothing to do with quality.

I would not expect a lot of $7000 Hensoldts to sell, I think everyone would agree, it's value to the average shooter is not worth the cost. But then again it was designed for a specific contract and Hensoldt does not market to civilians. The fact a company will offer it to us doesn't change that fact. It's there if you want it -- and I will say, since I own one, it's a very good scope. I like it a lot. But to a layman with very little insight, I can show you the new Vortex 4-27x and you'd be hard pressed to see the $4000 difference, the size, weight, power, features are all very similar, so you can spend $7k for the Hensoldt or $2.5k for the Vortex and that doesn't have a thing to do with quality

Semantics.

 

[Lowlight]

It has absolutely nothing to do with semantics, but if that is what you want to say instead of telling yourself you're wrong...

 

[orkan]

Has Tangent given a date as to when the entire shipments will be reaching vendors, like yourselves?

No hard date, but it's all down hill from here. I talked with ATI this morning, and they are going to see if they can get back to me with some timelines.

When will these scopes be available to purchase? I love SB, but have a great light tactical Premiere 3-15.

They are available for purchase right now. We won't bill your card until we have the scope in hand and ready to ship, but you can place your order with us anytime.

On the call this morning I was able to get some answers to address some questions folks had earlier in the thread.

1) They are taking steps to ensure that the click indicator lines up perfectly with the scale on the turret. I had no doubt that this would be the case.

2) As I suspected, the parallax knob was left without yardage indicators specifically because each persons eye will be slightly different, and what is parallax-free for one, will not be parallax free for the other. In order to have a truly parallax free setting, the user must look through the scope while making adjustments. Given how unbelievably forgiving the parallax is on these scopes, I do not see this as being an issue at all, as their design encourages proper usage of the scope.

3) No solid answer on why the illumination was left exposed as opposed to retractable as in the Premier. They are going to get back to me on this for you. Though I can tell you I fielded plenty of calls from guys that said their illumination didn't work... and had to be told to pull the ring out. I'm guessing this was an "idiot proof" type decision to reduce customer support issues. Also, this illumination control on the TT525P has clicks in it... where as the one on the Premier didn't. So I'm guessing there are some design reasons behind the choice as well.

4) Group buy is not going to happen. They have a very strict pricing structure on these scopes. As I've pointed out before, and as Lowlight pointed out again, these scopes are priced where they need to be priced to be solvent. Nobody getting rich.

5) Scopes are trickling out, and I should have more clear customs late this week/early next week. We've got a pre-order list that just keeps getting longer by the day, so if you are wanting one sooner rather than later, give me a call!

 

[KWilson]

There ya go. You just said what I've been saying all along. Just change to word advantage to quality. You are not saying the S&B' s are of bad quality. Just not good enough quality to justify another $3000.

These are not the droids you are looking for.

 

[Nik H]

(1) Nice write up and (2) LOL, this thread went to shit quick. WTF, he posted a review on a high end scope and didn't even get a reach around by the Chevy Cavalier crowd. No wonder the most popular threads are shit like Vortex blah blah blah vs. Bushnell blah blah blah vs. SWFA blah blah blah. Comes to down to your audience. Basically, everybody on this forum owns a Tasco family lineage scope in some form or another whether they want to believe it or not. You don't see this sort of shit on astronomy optic forums. Everybody appreciates a good scope.

Really? Don't know about the astronomy comments. The Takahashi versus Astro Physics banter is every bit as good as some of these threads...that is why I own one of each.

 

[VJJPunisher]

It's not a startup,

it's got a pedigree and they have a history, have you ever heard of Elcan ?

This is hardly a startup situation

How many have seen an elcan in the wild? on a range? on a buddies rifle? Virtually NONE. We only use those things on SAWs and 240's, the discussion on thier quality and user opinion of them is a different conversation.

My point is using an Elcan as base for pedigree justification is absurd, just my opinion. If this new TT scope is intended for them to get some big gov contract so be it and wish them the best.

I look at it like this, the shooting community is small in comparison to total numbers of americans, the scoped rifle crowd is even smaller(deer hunter Joe), the precision LR rifle crowd narrows it even further. Your target audience is a tiny niche and you already have , as you mentioned, alot of great options out there in packages costing alot less.

I feel Tangent Theta is gonna have a steep uphill climb if they want this scope to catch on. As this thread demonstrates, you can explain all the science, all the good ideas, all the wonderful tech that went into this this optic, but with a new(to the average lr shooter) company it's gonna be tougher than woodpecker lips to justify the cost(not even mentioning the folks out there that have formed an opinion that its still at the end of the day a turd Premier).

Not trying to be argumentative, just sayin these things are why all the negativity as I see it, but who am I.

I'll eat my words if they are mainstream scopes on all winning shooters in 1-2 years from now but Im guessing they wont. Either they get a Gov contract, or they lower the cost. Let's come back in a year and see if I have to apologize for reading it wrong, oh wait this content will be locked and long gone by then..........

 

[Lowlight]

I have 4 Elcans does that count as being in the wild ... and I guarantee there will be some TT on competition winnings rifles in 2 years, if not a lot sooner

I will make sure to transfer your post over personally so you can apologize, cause you;re way wrong. With the Number of Premiers out there, this is an improved version of that, so why would it not succeed,

 

[g3ninfinite]

I remember everyone pumping up the heritage just like this, then all of a sudden everyone abandoned ship.

 

[Lowlight]

That was because people correctly saw the writing on the wall, ATK is a solid company with very little, to no risk of financial problems.

That was about the company more than the scope

 

[g3ninfinite]

And those guys will have been given scopes.

I have 4 Elcans does that count as being in the wild ... and I guarantee there will be some TT on competition winnings rifles in 2 years, if not a lot sooner

I will make sure to transfer your post over personally so you can apologize, cause you;re way wrong. With the Number of Premiers out there, this is an improved version of that, so why would it not succeed,

 

[Lowlight]

And many others will buy it simply because it costs more... that and once they look through it.

I know several dealers looking forward to carrying it, if you don't think they won't push it

 

[VJJPunisher]

I have 4 Elcans does that count as being in the wild ... and I guarantee there will be some TT on competition winnings rifles in 2 years, if not a lot sooner

I will make sure to transfer your post over personally so you can apologize, cause you;re way wrong. With the Number of Premiers out there, this is an improved version of that, so why would it not succeed,

you having 4 elcans means nothing, you have more gear and optics than most will have in a lifetime.

I disagree completely with you about this scopes fate, and thats ok, we will have to revisit this in time and see whos gotta renig

 

[Lowlight]

I will put my 14 years running this site as my experience as to what will happen.

Happy to go on a limb and say, you'll see this scope as one of the big 3 ...

That is my prediction ... Big 3 in 2 LOL

 

[g3ninfinite]

Im not doubting any of it. Just saying it feels like deja vu

 

[g3ninfinite]

The only thing I cant get over is why anyone would buy one over a BEAST. Well see I guess.

 

[Lowlight]

Cause most don't like the idea of the lever with the BEAST,

That is why, the BEAST is awesome, but it's not everyone's Cup of Tea, heck Vortex is probably more popular and less money

 

[VJJPunisher]

aaahhhhhh the beast,

Alot of pimping went into that one as well, sounds familiar, where's all the hype now that they're out there? not much talk? only things Ive heard are not good, and the industry as a whole is pretty quiet on them, why is that?

 

[orkan]

... and I guarantee there will be some TT on competition winnings rifles in 2 years, if not a lot sooner

Didn't Andy just win a comp over in europe with one? It's been such a busy couple weeks that I lost track. Anyway, I know these scopes will be atop some very serious competitors rifles... both locally and internationally. I had a gentleman call me today and offered $6,000 for the scope I currently have. The parallax being this forgiving, is worth its weight in gold to some people. (myself included) It's one of those core aspects of a scope that can turn them from something nice, into something outstanding.

Those trying to draw parallels between Premier and Tangent Theta at this point demonstrates a complete lack of perspective in my opinion.

 

[Lowlight]

I don;t know, I saw a pix of one on a Team GAP rifle at the PRS finale, I know there were at least 2 at the GRIND

It also came in 2nd in the Precision Rifle Blog Best Scope Shoot Out... go read those pages,

Everytime I stop by Mile High they are out of Stock, and if one comes in it goes out the same day. Maybe you aren't paying attention

In fact I just saw an Accuracy 1st trailer and T.H. was rocking a Beast ...

 

[VJJPunisher]

Maybe so it just seems it went quiet maybe im just not on the right places

 

[orkan]

Lets try to stay on point people. What Frank is saying of the Beast is spot on, but not nearly as exciting as what nightforce has in store for 2015. With that said, this thread is about the TT525P, so lets keep the discussion aimed in that direction.

 

[NoLegs24]

I had a gentleman call me today and offered $6,000 for the scope I currently have. The parallax being this forgiving, is worth its weight in gold to some people. (myself included)

F*** hahaha. Guess people can't wait a couple of weeks. I am def going to get one of these babies soon though (not right now). Will I sell my S&B's or Henny 3.5-26 to purchase it? NO. And if people keep thinking that the Big Henny 3.5-26 or S&B 3-37 are 7k then you might want to check some other retailers. EuroOptic has the Henny on sale for under 6k and I bet your ass you can easily get the S&B 3-27 easily under 6k too. Sometimes its great to know people. Is it worth it? Thats for those who are truly considering it to decide. They also came out and said that they where not made for the civilian sector,yet they put it out, and guys are buying them. They might not post about it because they will get hated on for spending "7k" for them. But back to the TT. Its a great review you put up on it Orkan. In some ways it you made it seem like you were overselling it a bit, but I understand the passion you have for the products you represent and what you feel is best for you and/or your customers. You sold me on it. Just going to wait a bit until they actually start coming out. Not in a hurry like that guy wanting to spend 6k though lol.

Again, GREAT REVIEW!!

 

[orkan]

Not in a hurry like that guy wanting to spend 6k though

Thanks for the compliments. Yeah, I literally spent half an hour talking the guy out of it. I just couldn't do it. Not when we're this close to getting a bunch more in hand. Now if someone offered me $10k... well I've never been great at suffering fools. I finally was able to calm him and I know he'll be a lot happier knowing he waited a couple weeks. Your henny is literally the only other scope on the market that I'd put in the same category as these scopes. Then, I give the nod to TT, just because the zero stop, parallax, and turrets are better. The henny is a nice scope too, no question about it. If I didn't know TT was coming to the table with this well over a year ago, I'd own one. I'm glad I waited though.

 

[918v]

Maybe if you talked more about the innards, what distinguishes this scope from the cheaper brands, then people would accept the price tag.

 

[sib1948]

I'm looking forward to my preorder and can't wait to compared it side by side with my S&B 5-25X DT. Suspect I'll be keeping both, but from your review, I may wind up selling my other S&B 3-20X with MSR and get a second TT525P. We'll see!

 

[TorF]

The optical system in this scope is apparently free of parallax from 240yds to infinity. If so, I would like to see this scope with fixed parallax without the manual parallax turret. KISS.

 

[orkan]

The optical system in this scope is apparently free of parallax from 240yds to infinity. If so, I would like to see this scope with fixed parallax without the manual parallax turret. KISS.

There will not be a fixed parallax version.

 

[Ring]

Pricing Your Services: Pricing Strategies

Skim Pricing

Skim pricing is when you set a higher price than your competitors.
In order to set pricing in this way, your customers need to perceive that your offer provides them with greater benefits than they will find elsewhere. Apple use skim pricing.
Customers perceive that Apple products are superior to the competitors, so it is therefore worth paying a premium. Whether this is objectively true or not is irrelevant - so long as the customers perceive that value, then it exists. This justifies the higher price. It could be argued the customer also gains social value by paying a high price, as they have something exclusive.
In order to skim price, you need to offer something the customer can’t easily get elsewhere. The customer must place a high value upon your service.
Consultants with proven reputations can use skim pricing, although maintaining a reputation over and above everyone else in crowded, maturing markets can be difficult. Where there are high margins, competitors will soon enter the space offering similar value.
The benefit of skim pricing is that you get to pick off the price-insensitive top-of-the-market clients. Who wouldn’t want this situation?
The downside is that other competitors can move into the price gap, slightly beneath the skim level, then bump up the value they offer in order to challenge the skim price competitor. They may create greater efficiencies, which means their profit margins are the same, if not higher. The value proposition to the customer remains strong, yet they undercut the leader on price.
It is only so long before the leader is forced to drop prices, refine their value proposition, or collapse. Skim market pricing can lead to a rapid erosion of market share if the leader does not stay well ahead of the market in terms of providing value. This happened to Apple in the 1980’s, and we might be seeing this again on tablet devices.


what do you think the S&B profit margin is, 90%???

 

[orkan]

It is only so long before the leader is forced to drop prices, refine their value proposition, or collapse.

Rifle scopes are not iPhones. Tangent Theta is not Apple. I can assure you the TT Scopes will never be cheaper than they are right now. I'd bet my last dollar that there will be a price increase on Jan 1 2015. The price is this scope is based on the cost to produce, support, and sustain the product. Lesser products carry lesser prices, and is to be expected.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

I will put my 14 years running this site as my experience as to what will happen.

Happy to go on a limb and say, you'll see this scope as one of the big 3 ...

That is my prediction ... Big 3 in 2 LOL

Cause most don't like the idea of the lever with the BEAST,

That is why, the BEAST is awesome, but it's not everyone's Cup of Tea, heck Vortex is probably more popular and less money

I look at it like this, the shooting community is small in comparison to total numbers of americans, the scoped rifle crowd is even smaller(deer hunter Joe), the precision LR rifle crowd narrows it even further. Your target audience is a tiny niche and you already have , as you mentioned, alot of great options out there in packages costing alot less.

I feel Tangent Theta is gonna have a steep uphill climb if they want this scope to catch on. As this thread demonstrates, you can explain all the science, all the good ideas, all the wonderful tech that went into this this optic, but with a new(to the average lr shooter) company it's gonna be tougher than woodpecker lips to justify the cost(not even mentioning the folks out there that have formed an opinion that its still at the end of the day a turd Premier).

When I see the entry of Tangent Theta to the industry as a whole, I keep thinking about the industry life cycle in general: Industry Lifecycle Definition | Investopedia which shows 4 stages:

i. Early Stages Phase - alternative product design and positioning, establishing the range and boundaries of the industry itself.
ii. Innovation Phase - Product innovation declines, process innovation begins and a "dominant design" will arrive.
iii. Cost or Shakeout Phase - Companies settle on the "dominant design"; economies of scale are achieved, forcing smaller players to be acquired or exit altogether. Barriers to entry become very high, as large-scale consolidation occurs.
iv. Maturity - Growth is no longer the main focus, market share and cash flow become the primary goals of the companies left in the space.
v. Decline - Revenues declining; the industry as a whole may be supplanted by a new one.


In particular, the TT525P seems to be a scope very similar to the Schmidt and Bender PMII 5-25x56. So that indicates that we are in the "Cost or Shakeout Phase", since the TT525P is mostly improvements on a previous "dominant design" of the Premier and also other designs of Vortex, Schmidt and Bender and Kahles (just to name a few). The question becomes, can TT acquire economies of scale to compete against the bigger scopes? Only time will tell.

I just would like to hear from the MUCH more experience industry professionals above comment on how a new company can be competitive in such an Industry achieving "Maturity". I personally do not see the industry reaching "Decline" just yet.

I will say that the Nightforce BEAST was a different direction, which is refreshing. I am curious how popular those become in the end. It scored well in Mr. Zant's evaluations to become possible a top three scope.

 

[Ring]

my comment wasnt directed at this company specifically... more of a industry whole... all "most" of our equipment is WAY overpriced when it comes to the "actual" cost of the products..

just look at "precision rifle slings".. you get 3$ worth of nylon strapping, and a few bucks in buckels... yet we are willing to pay 90 to 180$ for that?
suppressors, look at the cost of cans in other countries and compare to ours..
look at scope rings... or bases for that matter...
we pay 30$ or more for a rear "bean bag" and then bitch when midway makes a "copy" for 10$
MidwayUSA Tactical Rear Shooting Rest Bag Nylon Olive Drab Wedge
MidwayUSA Tactical Rear Shooting Rest Bag Nylon Olive Drab Square

a number of years back, Voodoo Tactical made "eberlestock" like rifle pack, it was 40% different than "original".. way more of a change then that is required for patent infringement..
yet eberlestock still sued, and Voodoo would have won easy, but chose to just say F it.. and drop the product..
the funny part was Voodoo had ton of "prototypes" already made..
they decided to give them away to people... that caused much panty twisting over at eberlestock...

the old joke applies... "why does X company cost so much more then Y?"..... because they can..... its the "Gucci mentality" that people think because something cost more, it must be better...

so in summary, does TT make good scopes? probably, premier did...
are they a good "Value" cost / features.... thats up to each person and their needs vs wants

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

Rifle scopes are not iPhones. Tangent Theta is not Apple. I can assure you the TT Scopes will never be cheaper than they are right now. I'd bet my last dollar that there will be a price increase on Jan 1 2015. The price is this scope is based on the cost to produce, support, and sustain the product. Lesser products carry lesser prices, and is to be expected.

Agree 100%

$4250 is "door-buster" pricing!

 

[orkan]

In particular, the TT525P seems to be a scope very similar to the Schmidt and Bender PMII 5-25x56.

I'm very curious as to what leads you to this conclusion. Can you share why you feel this to be the case? Statements like this make me feel as though I've not adequately covered the scopes feature set. Perhaps there's something I'm not showing adequately?

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

I'm very curious as to what leads you to this conclusion. Can you share why you feel this to be the case? Statements like this make me feel as though I've not adequately covered the scopes feature set. Perhaps there's something I'm not showing adequately?

Perhaps because they're both 5-25x56 scopes, basically the same form factor, with basically the same feature set?

I understand there are nuanced differences in the details such as method of "floating the caps" and "ocular adjustment/locking" and where on the tube the illumination knob is, but by and large, its Camry vs. Accord.

I like Hondas better than Toyotas, so I'll personally swear up and down all day long the Accord is better. Still, Camry and Accord are VERY similar products.

In this case, maybe a better analogy is Toyota Camry vs. Hyundai Sonata?? Camry has been the gold standard passenger car appliance for decades, and Hyundai - while not quite a startup, has REALLY been trying to redevelop and step up their game lately, with vastly improved product.

 

[orkan]

Perhaps because they're both 5-25x56 scopes, basically the same form factor, with basically the same feature set?

Well, by that logic, I can certainly see how some would feel them to be the same. I do encounter that frequently when shooting with others. They think I'm a fool for having the equipment I have, since their Leupold VX-III is all they ever need. I see those leupold users meeting the same fate as I in those conversations when they are confronted by a nikon 3-9 user, or other $300 scope.

Having said that, there are some of us that have a much higher expectation. For us, the "nuances" you describe have great value. The design differences between the S&B 5-25 and the TT525P are drastic. So I guess it all depends on your perspective. To some, it's just another 5-25. For others, it's a ground breaking leap forward in rifle scope design.

 

[HodgdonExtreme]

Well, by that logic, I can certainly see how some would feel them to be the same. I do encounter that frequently when shooting with others. They think I'm a fool for having the equipment I have, since their Leupold VX-III is all they ever need. I see those leupold users meeting the same fate as I in those conversations when they are confronted by a nikon 3-9 user, or other $300 scope.

Having said that, there are some of us that have a much higher expectation. For us, the "nuances" you describe have great value. The design differences between the S&B 5-25 and the TT525P are drastic. So I guess it all depends on your perspective. To some, it's just another 5-25. For others, it's a ground breaking leap forward in rifle scope design.

Except there are differing needs and expectations at these vastly different price points.

You mention "high end" vs. VX-III, and then VX-III vs. Nikon 3-9.

I argue what's possible with a SB PMII or Premier (or other "high end" scope) is different than what is possible with a VX-III - and the same is true when comparing a VX-III to a Nikon 3-9.

But, I'd also argue what's possible and what a user expects out of an SB PMII and TT525P are essentially the same.

Don't misunderstand me, the TT525P looks great. I liked the Premier product and like that the TT is a revamp and refinement of it. But to say it is a "ground breaking leap forward" seems like a bit of a stretch.

 

[poison123]

Except there are differing needs and expectations at these vastly different price points.

You mention "high end" vs. VX-III, and then VX-III vs. Nikon 3-9.

I argue what's possible with a SB PMII or Premier (or other "high end" scope) is different than what is possible with a VX-III - and the same is true when comparing a VX-III to a Nikon 3-9.

But, I'd also argue what's possible and what a user expects out of an SB PMII and TT525P are essentially the same.

Don't misunderstand me, the TT525P looks great. I liked the Premier product and like that the TT is a revamp and refinement of it. But to say it is a "ground breaking leap forward" seems like a bit of a stretch.

This right here, its the same old scope design. There is nothing ground breaking about it, as much as the Beast turrets are hated.....at least they tried to do something different.

 

[918v]

I don't understand the inflated profit argument. Just because the raw materials cost 10% does not mean there is a 90% profit. My reading indicates it takes 3 hours to assemble a scope. The machinery used to make the parts is in the six figure range. The machinery used to test the scope is extremely expensive. Then you have rent and utilities, and r&d and licensing issues.

25% is more like it.