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The battle of 308’s
- Thread starter aslrookie
- Start date
If you are mechanically inclined you can build your own (like many do AR-15s and M4geries). The 11% federal excise tax you save not buying a factory gun can buy the tools.
You'll probably need an 18- or 20-inch barrel to use your AMTAC. This is a 16-inch Armalite with a 1-10 Criterion barrel (rifle-length gas tube):
You'll probably need an 18- or 20-inch barrel to use your AMTAC. This is a 16-inch Armalite with a 1-10 Criterion barrel (rifle-length gas tube):
Sincerely, someone with a very nice Barrett AR-10 and and lot of ammo and magazines for it. They’re fun guns and you can build some really gangster options too if you want. But at the end of the day .308 AR’s do 8 different jobs with mediocrity, and do nothing well. Except recoil. And penetrate engine blocks.
WarComp
I ran into them.by accident and swear by their utility and claimed function.
They flat out work.
Yeah, I’ve built plenty of 15 and a 10 in 260rem with a proof carbon barrel. I’m over building and troubleshooting at this point. I want something out of the box that just flat out works.
High recoil for their caliber, expensive, heavy ammo that eats more volume, generally short barrels that limit ballistics, more difficult to shoot precisely than bolt actions, heavy, more proprietary parts design, overpenetration of barriers (good or bad), generally picky about precise gas adjustment for different types of ammo, easy to run into feeding issues.
For the cost of a pretty standard AR-10, a comparison:
Nucleus Gen2 Rifle
www.americanrifle.com
.308 Autos are fun guns. They also aren't as precise as bolt guns, don't have the ballistics of longer barrels, don't carry the ammo or have the recoil of lighter carbines, and are much pickier with ammo selection. Hence my comment on mediocrity.
Again I'm not trying to trash this thread or the idea of buying an AR308. My point is that they all are fairly similar in the above regards, but they're still capable and fun guns, and in these weapons I think it's more about buying what you want than what is best, because this platform isn't really 'best' at something.
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Appreciate the response.High recoil for their caliber, expensive, heavy ammo that eats more volume, generally short barrels that limit ballistics, more difficult to shoot precisely than bolt actions, heavy, more proprietary parts design, overpenetration of barriers (good or bad), generally picky about precise gas adjustment for different types of ammo, easy to run into feeding issues.
For the cost of a pretty standard AR-10, a comparison:
Nucleus Gen2 Rifle
.308 Autos are fun guns. They also aren't as precise as bolt guns, don't have the ballistics of longer barrels, don't carry the ammo or have the recoil of lighter carbines, and are much pickier with ammo selection. Hence my comment on mediocrity.
Again I'm not trying to trash this thread or the idea of buying an AR308. My point is that they all are fairly similar in the above regards, but they're still capable and fun guns, and in these weapons I think it's more about buying what you want than what is best, because this platform isn't really 'best' at something.
There's a company that makes Large Frame ARs that can take MOAR than a few Bolt Pink Slips
even with a disparity of Dollar for Dollar. And that is with their Chrome-Lined Bores,
Very interesting read for the top contenders!
I’m however to poor to add any value to this conversation so I’ll just tag in for the info and promptly fuck off to a corner with the other poors!
Some day maybe but for now I have my RR LAR8.
I’ll second what @UpSideDown said above tho. I’ve pulled me scope off my AR10 to run on bolts guns several times. My RR shoots very well suppressed and I plan to use it as a thermal host eventually but it doesn’t get me off like my AIAT does.
But that’s just based on MY use. Which is mostly LR hunting
I’m however to poor to add any value to this conversation so I’ll just tag in for the info and promptly fuck off to a corner with the other poors!
Some day maybe but for now I have my RR LAR8.
I’ll second what @UpSideDown said above tho. I’ve pulled me scope off my AR10 to run on bolts guns several times. My RR shoots very well suppressed and I plan to use it as a thermal host eventually but it doesn’t get me off like my AIAT does.
But that’s just based on MY use. Which is mostly LR hunting
WOW!Just get this the ultimate 7.62 (and 5.56). Going to be a wee bit heavier than the other options and a shit ton more
but I love it!! I have the Swiss Sig 751, KAC SR25, HK MR762 and SCAR 17. The bottom line is that the bolt guns almost always go to the range over the semi’s. Still love them and wouldn’t sell them. Good luck with your decision.
View attachment 7431196YView attachment 7431197
Swiss Arms SG751 masterrace for the win
Nice HK21 as well, but the SG751 is just a level above most other rifles in quality. Not saying Id ever give up my AR's, but I would have to think about it. I wouldnt, but it would take some thought, if it meant getting a 551 and 751 in return.
its funny how some don’t believe it or refuse to, I had/have one that was equally as accurate as my custom bolt gun. It stayed that way until right around 4K rounds then it opened up to right around 1 MOA and then again it opened up at 7,500 rounds and I pulled that barrel earlier this year. it was an amazingly accurate rifle and was really reliable too. I ran it suppressed, dry over 500 rounds before it hiccuped, I cleaned the extractor grove and she ran like a top. I cleaned it shortly after that because I couldn’t stand how dirty she was. That company was good when it was Illinois, I’m not so sure now...
LMT heavy view suffers from internet nonsense that won't die. Check the websites, they are all roughly the same give or take a 1lb and 1lb is not making anyone suffer. No rifle mentioned will give you the versatility combined with reliability, accuracy and proven performance of the LMT, not even debatable really. LMT's have the highest end user marks across any service that used them.
Did someone say HK would ring circles around LMT? JHC people need some real world trigger time and interaction in field with people that use them. lol Not only that but the same cat is questioning the accuracy as well so you already know he's talking out of his ass. Accuracy and reliability are universally agreed to be stellar with the LMT.
JP notorious for reliability issues and finnicky with ammo makes this option a non-starter for most.
FN is well FN meaning you get good but not great reliability and accuracy. Then you've got the issue of consumer support
KAC and LMT are the only real options and KAC gives you nothing over the LMT except cost
Did someone say HK would ring circles around LMT? JHC people need some real world trigger time and interaction in field with people that use them. lol Not only that but the same cat is questioning the accuracy as well so you already know he's talking out of his ass. Accuracy and reliability are universally agreed to be stellar with the LMT.
JP notorious for reliability issues and finnicky with ammo makes this option a non-starter for most.
FN is well FN meaning you get good but not great reliability and accuracy. Then you've got the issue of consumer support
KAC and LMT are the only real options and KAC gives you nothing over the LMT except cost
Dude I’m pretty sure my Barrett with a loaded 25rd mag, accupower scope, rings weighs just a hair over what a naked LMT weighs. They’re heavy. Not ridiculous but they’re heavy. It’s an 11lb gun vs a 14lb gun once it’s ready to go.
Not quite
Rec10 8.2lbs
loaded 25rd mag 2lbs
accupower and mount 2lbs
Total loaded weight est 12lbs
LMT MWS battle rifle with LW 13.5 barrel 8.7lbs
LMT MWS with 20 inch Match barrel. 10.3lbs
That does not mean that one rifle is better than or worse than the other, just that many times when people make these comparisons, they are not comparing the same thing. That would be akin to saying, that the Rec10 shoots like trash at 1100 yards when compared against say an MWS with 20 inch 6.5cm barrel. Duh...
If one compares an 8.2lb REC10 or ACC vs 8.7lb LMT Battle-rifle, I think this discussion becomes more interesting. I personally would like to know how the rec10 compares to the ACC.
I have an 8lb Scar(8.2lb with extended hand-guard, a 8.2lb ACC and a 8.7lb MWS, and from a practical standpoint, that half lb or is not going to make a difference in most scenarios. I think If one wanted ultra light, there are far better options out there like the POF or V7, than any of the mil oriented large frame gas guns, but those come at the expense of durability.
At the end of the day, there are alot of really good large frame gas guns out there I think KAC,LMT, Barrett, and FN all all great choices for their own reasons. I think the B&T 308 looks pretty damn nice as well. I think that CZ and Sig are going to have some pretty nice 308 gas guns in the next year or so.
Hell... the Fix/mini fix, as will as Sigs copycat are pretty damn interesting designs although not gas guns. 50 state legal, AR modularity that takes AR based mags.... Sorta of want
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Yeah but dudes aren’t buying SBR’d .308’s. The full size MWS is over 10 pounds dry.
Question,
why are you still comparing it to the Standard rifle with 16 inch heavy barrel that weights 10.3 lbs when the MWS is available with 16 inch lightweight barrel that weights 9lbs.
Comparisons are done between like items, not Honda Accords and F250's
Because I didn’t know they had a lightweight option? I’ve handled a few and thought they only had the one profile. That definitely helps, especially with how front heavy these guns get.
I have nothing nice to say.
So get a DPMS LRR, a BSA tactical scope, $25 fully featured "Harris" on Amazon and that Amtac will look OAF, mission over.
So get a DPMS LRR, a BSA tactical scope, $25 fully featured "Harris" on Amazon and that Amtac will look OAF, mission over.
Oh Ok,
That makes sense. I will be the first to say that a standard railed MWS with heavy barrel is a poor choice for anything not associated with accuracy, but as one explores some of the lighter options, it becomes more interesting.
Of the lighter options, i would like to check out the POF and see how shootable it is.
That makes sense. I will be the first to say that a standard railed MWS with heavy barrel is a poor choice for anything not associated with accuracy, but as one explores some of the lighter options, it becomes more interesting.
Of the lighter options, i would like to check out the POF and see how shootable it is.
On the accuracy/reliability side, I think that may be less of a concern with quality modern guns. Granted, sample size of one, but I picked up an 18" SP10M, and it shoots as well as our issued AIs with any of our issued ammo from Hornady or Black Hills. We're in the process of evaluating the idea of a gas gun for our snipers, so the thing hasn't been cleaned in at least 400 suppressed rounds so far & hasn't malfunctioned at all in that role. It absolutely is a heavy pig, especially with a bipod, can and scope, but the recoil is about on par with my AI as well.
I resisted getting a 308 AR for a long time, and was hesitant to pick this one up, but so far I couldn't be happier.
For the OP, I'm pretty sure Cabelas had the standard SP10s on sale for $1700 or so around Christmas last year. $150 to have the barrel cut & threaded to your preferred length, and add on an adjustable receiver extension & stock & you could be in pretty good shape. Just an idea.
I resisted getting a 308 AR for a long time, and was hesitant to pick this one up, but so far I couldn't be happier.
For the OP, I'm pretty sure Cabelas had the standard SP10s on sale for $1700 or so around Christmas last year. $150 to have the barrel cut & threaded to your preferred length, and add on an adjustable receiver extension & stock & you could be in pretty good shape. Just an idea.
I get it, many high end AR10’s with a good barrel can shoot very well, some even sub half MOA.
But bolt rifles will always have an edge IMO. Ie: let me know when a AR10 wins a 600 or 1000yd benchrest National, or F-Class National. Not saying gas guns can’t shoot extremely well, as I said some of em better than .5 MOA. Not many can do that on a consistent basis tho, not many bolt guns can do that consistently either. And AR’s ain’t setting records in F-Class like a well lined out bolt gun does(and yes AR’s are allowed, just have to single load it).
Imagine most of us know this already.
I love AR’s and as shown above I’d give my left nut(and any non vital organs) for a Swiss Arms SG751. But when it comes to the ultimate in ultimate accuracy, a super high end custom bolt rifle will hold a edge over high end AR’s.
i still like .308 because i was able to get m80 ball for ~$0.42 per round, and it shoots fine for steel out to at least 400.
unfortunately the price has spiked to $0.64/rd if you can even find any in stock (serbian ppu). luckily i stock up for zombies.
unfortunately the price has spiked to $0.64/rd if you can even find any in stock (serbian ppu). luckily i stock up for zombies.
no, but i would if i could get any. i haven't even been able to score any m118lr to try, or hoard.
SCAR17
LT OBR
GAP10
In that order.
Edit: I had an MWS and couldn’t get it to run reliably in multiple can/no can configurations so I traded it for a 2nd SCAR (lucky day).
LT OBR
GAP10
In that order.
Edit: I had an MWS and couldn’t get it to run reliably in multiple can/no can configurations so I traded it for a 2nd SCAR (lucky day).
I'm not arguing but if JP had that many issues I would think their reputation wouldn't be as good as it is. I'm just looking for clarification as I am looking for a 16" 308.
I don't think anyone ever said any of these rifles were suitable for benchrest, anyone that thinks they are isn't very bright or is a novice in this. The point I think Dave and I were trying to make was that everyone on this board thinks KAC, LMT and Larue are the only games in town. A lot of us that have been around for a while know better but to each their own...
(disclaimer I'm not being a dick in my response you can't detect a tone in a text LOL)
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KAC, LMT, and LaRue were always too rich for my blood. So I built all my 308 ARs. It did take me two years of saving to purchase my ZC420. Also took about three years to complete both builds.
Black river tactical now makes Ez Tune gas tubes that make shooting suppressed/mixed smoother for the mws. They have carbine, mid, and rifle length gas tubes of varying sizes depending on application. I have one in a .556 ar and works great
Black River Tactical Store - Shop BRT
Shop BRT Black River Tactical Store Covert Comp OPTIMUM EZTUNE Gas Tube MicroTUNE Gas Block CustomTUNE Gas Port MicroPin Gas Block Mk12 Gas Tube BRT EXT BRT EXC BRT PDW Pistol Carbine Mid Midlength Rifle Upper Receiver Group Bolt Carrier Group Barrels Muzzle Devices Adjustable Gas Drive AR15 LMT
blackrivertactical.com
To the OP, if you're looking for a 16" barrel, take a look at the POF Revolution DI. It'll come in at the same weight with a scope and mount as most others naked. It's 6.8 pounds which I confirmed after purchase.
It does stay on target remarkably well and with certain loads, I'm getting half MOA at 100 yards and MOA with cheap ammo like PMC Bronze/American Eagle and it' a fun gun to shoot. It's very close to a heavy .223/5.56 load in felt recoil. I have a few hot .223 loads I've tried recently and there's almost no difference honestly.
Reliability wise, they seem to have the DI figured out and it feels robust/well built despite the lack of weight. I've had no failures to speak of and it's shot everything I've slotted into the magazine from 147gr to 180gr. I'm generally testing between 150 and 168gr and it seems to shoot everything well. I'd like to try a light 125gr. round, might be quite fun. Build quality on mine is flawless and I love the functionality of the ambidextrous lower, so much so I'm trying to locate a Gen4 .223 lower so my two rifles are as close as possible to one and other. Zero regrets other than the fact I can't shave any more weight as pretty much everything is proprietary on it. You can swap grips, the safety, trigger, charge handle, things like that, but they're already quality parts so I don't see the need to save 5 grams. Barrel is heavy fluted, nitrided 416R, 5R rifling with a very easy to use adjustable gas block. The hand rail is fantastic and if you have a magnetospeed chronograph, it's like it was made for the POF with the picatinny mount.
Keith Garcia runs a Revolution DI in 3 gun and cleans up. I'm sure some of that comes down to the guy behind the POF but I'm sure the overall design is an asset to his abilities.
It does stay on target remarkably well and with certain loads, I'm getting half MOA at 100 yards and MOA with cheap ammo like PMC Bronze/American Eagle and it' a fun gun to shoot. It's very close to a heavy .223/5.56 load in felt recoil. I have a few hot .223 loads I've tried recently and there's almost no difference honestly.
Reliability wise, they seem to have the DI figured out and it feels robust/well built despite the lack of weight. I've had no failures to speak of and it's shot everything I've slotted into the magazine from 147gr to 180gr. I'm generally testing between 150 and 168gr and it seems to shoot everything well. I'd like to try a light 125gr. round, might be quite fun. Build quality on mine is flawless and I love the functionality of the ambidextrous lower, so much so I'm trying to locate a Gen4 .223 lower so my two rifles are as close as possible to one and other. Zero regrets other than the fact I can't shave any more weight as pretty much everything is proprietary on it. You can swap grips, the safety, trigger, charge handle, things like that, but they're already quality parts so I don't see the need to save 5 grams. Barrel is heavy fluted, nitrided 416R, 5R rifling with a very easy to use adjustable gas block. The hand rail is fantastic and if you have a magnetospeed chronograph, it's like it was made for the POF with the picatinny mount.
Keith Garcia runs a Revolution DI in 3 gun and cleans up. I'm sure some of that comes down to the guy behind the POF but I'm sure the overall design is an asset to his abilities.
The revolution DI looks pretty cool.
Have you ever had a chance to compare it a typical large frame AR, and if so what are your impressions? While that Keith Garcia video looks pretty good at 7 yards, they really didnt show the groups, and I just wonder how that translates at say, 100 or 200 yards down range. More frame a recoil management perspective than mechanical accuracy.
Cool rifle none the less. would like to check on out one day
I have not compared it to another large frame rifle but I'll have the chance soon, possibly to an HK and one or two others.
Yeah the Garcia video, not much of a challenge at 7 yards (if that!) but look at the recoil and rate of fire vs. the .223. The blue gun is a POF Dream .223 so it's a good comparison.
Like I said, I can get sub-moa at 100 yards and I am not what I'd call a great shooter by any means (working on it!). Longest range I have within an acceptable driving range for paper is 200 and 300 with metal targets. You'd think being in Texas, I'd have ranges that reach out significantly further but none that I know about that are public in my neck of the woods. I may have a chance to get out on a piece of land were we can take targets out to 1000 yards. Should be a real eye opener as I've not shot at that range yet.
I'm a "build-it" type of guy honestly. With my mechanical background I just plain enjoy it. And while I think I could shave another half pound off the POF, it'd require the use of unobtanium materials and probably wouldn't make it as effective a weapon. And there isn't anything I'd really change from a function or performance standpoint honestly. Yeah, I'd love it if say a Smoke Carbon buffer tube worked or I could fit a carbon hand guard but we're talking an ounce or two at best. All the major components are engineered for their lightness without sacrificing durability. If you look at say the VSeven 308, full build, a lot of their parts are titanium, 2025 lithium/aluminum and what not, to get to what is a few ounces lighter than the POF which doesn't use a single ounce of titanium in the entire rifle. It's actually kind of amazing. Only thing I know is top secret from a metal standpoint is the bolt. I think the whole BCG came in 2 oz. lighter than a mil-spec AR15 bcg. I'd have to go back and look to confirm.
Mil-spec AR15 BCG 11.2oz, POF Revolution DI BCG 10.9oz.
Yeah the Garcia video, not much of a challenge at 7 yards (if that!) but look at the recoil and rate of fire vs. the .223. The blue gun is a POF Dream .223 so it's a good comparison.
Like I said, I can get sub-moa at 100 yards and I am not what I'd call a great shooter by any means (working on it!). Longest range I have within an acceptable driving range for paper is 200 and 300 with metal targets. You'd think being in Texas, I'd have ranges that reach out significantly further but none that I know about that are public in my neck of the woods. I may have a chance to get out on a piece of land were we can take targets out to 1000 yards. Should be a real eye opener as I've not shot at that range yet.
I'm a "build-it" type of guy honestly. With my mechanical background I just plain enjoy it. And while I think I could shave another half pound off the POF, it'd require the use of unobtanium materials and probably wouldn't make it as effective a weapon. And there isn't anything I'd really change from a function or performance standpoint honestly. Yeah, I'd love it if say a Smoke Carbon buffer tube worked or I could fit a carbon hand guard but we're talking an ounce or two at best. All the major components are engineered for their lightness without sacrificing durability. If you look at say the VSeven 308, full build, a lot of their parts are titanium, 2025 lithium/aluminum and what not, to get to what is a few ounces lighter than the POF which doesn't use a single ounce of titanium in the entire rifle. It's actually kind of amazing. Only thing I know is top secret from a metal standpoint is the bolt. I think the whole BCG came in 2 oz. lighter than a mil-spec AR15 bcg. I'd have to go back and look to confirm.
Mil-spec AR15 BCG 11.2oz, POF Revolution DI BCG 10.9oz.
I have not compared it to another large frame rifle but I'll have the chance soon, possibly to an HK and one or two others.
Yeah the Garcia video, not much of a challenge at 7 yards (if that!) but look at the recoil and rate of fire vs. the .223. The blue gun is a POF Dream .223 so it's a good comparison.
Like I said, I can get sub-moa at 100 yards and I am not what I'd call a great shooter by any means (working on it!). Longest range I have within an acceptable driving range for paper is 200 and 300 with metal targets. You'd think being in Texas, I'd have ranges that reach out significantly further but none that I know about that are public in my neck of the woods. I may have a chance to get out on a piece of land were we can take targets out to 1000 yards. Should be a real eye opener as I've not shot at that range yet.
I'm a "build-it" type of guy honestly. With my mechanical background I just plain enjoy it. And while I think I could shave another half pound off the POF, it'd require the use of unobtanium materials and probably wouldn't make it as effective a weapon. And there isn't anything I'd really change from a function or performance standpoint honestly. Yeah, I'd love it if say a Smoke Carbon buffer tube worked or I could fit a carbon hand guard but we're talking an ounce or two at best. All the major components are engineered for their lightness without sacrificing durability. If you look at say the VSeven 308, full build, a lot of their parts are titanium, 2025 lithium/aluminum and what not, to get to what is a few ounces lighter than the POF which doesn't use a single ounce of titanium in the entire rifle. It's actually kind of amazing. Only thing I know is top secret from a metal standpoint is the bolt. I think the whole BCG came in 2 oz. lighter than a mil-spec AR15 bcg. I'd have to go back and look to confirm.
Mil-spec AR15 BCG 11.2oz, POF Revolution DI BCG 10.9oz.
impressive,
yeah, definitely give some feedback if you try the HK. I think out of most of the companies out there, I think that POF is doing a really good job if bringing interesting stuff to market. Considering there is no free lunch I wonder what one is potentially giving up going the DI route.
I also wonder about the durability and service life on any new design. Not that I think that they are in anyway fragile, but just curious none the less.
