Look at Newcon -Military grade and very accurate even if its cloudy .Very close to vectronics but cheaper.I don't care if connects to a Kestrel .I do my own math anyways
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The BIG 3 Bino/Rangefinders (or 4?) Swaro EL RF, Leica 3200’s , Sig 10K or Ziess?
- Thread starter verdugo60
- Start date
I live in Colorado shoot long range to 2000 yards and hunt big game. Make deer antelope and elk. I also have the sig 3000 they are so handy because the rangefinder works so great. I don't connect to ab or anything I just know my drops or have it wrote down on my rifle for hunting. The glass is blah ended up selling mine and looking over the other brands and ended up ordering the sig 10k. They never came in and I ended up switching my order to a rifle scope for my dad. So back to square one for me and ended back with the sig 3000 because of the range finder haha I have a spotting scope and 15s to help glass better because sigs are just above the Vortex vipers which aren't the worst but not best. I had the tract 12.5 x 50 binos and loved the glass but the 1 unit is so nice and fast
The last guy I had in the XLR class that had a Newcon wanted to throw in downrange and shoot it. Might be mil-spec for Zimbabwe
I’m South East of Denver, and have the Sig3000’s as well., lol. If I end up getting the Leica’s you’re welcome to meet up with me and try them out. Maybe at your 2000 yard spot with my 7 SAUM?
I live about 2 to 3 hours from you around canon city. It's at my local range at 2000 it's at a rock but steel at 1 mile. I actually like rocks better.I’m South East of Denver, and have the Sig3000’s as well., lol. If I end up getting the Leica’s you’re welcome to meet up with me and try them out. Maybe at your 2000 yard spot with my 7 SAUM?
I used to live in the Springs, sounds like you're at Royal Gorge, shot there with a friend and love that range except for issues with shooting over the close ranges, wish they would figure that out. Need more ranges that go out to a mile and further.
@canezach
Yep that would be the range. I have met him a couple times. Yeah it's weird but we have certain times where we have the range just for long range.
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I've been in contact with a Leica rep to get some questions answered, I'll update here once I have some better info. He's been very helpful, nice to see Leica stepping up their customer service in the States!
Very happy with my zeiss victory rf 10x42. Once I know kestrel dope is perfect, I tweak the zeiss app to ger the drops to line up exact. Yeah theres no wind, so you still gotta back kestrel. But anymore I have been mainly eyeballing the wind. May take it out a few times a match to validate.
Wind is nice to have but I got to thinking about the value of using a Kestrel at the firing position one day I was at an F Class event and there were flags setup at 3 positions (guessing 250 / 500 / 750).
When I watched them I noticed that 2 (the closest and furthest away) were pretty similar - ie blowing the same direction (roughly 90 degrees to my position) and generally about the same amount.
When I looked at the one in the middle it was the total opposite of the other two (ie wind blowing in the opposite direction). I am still pretty new to longe range and certainly have a lot to learn regarding reading wind so it put me in bit of a pickle as to what to do.
Fortunately I was able to shoot at the target and make adjustments (it was pretty relaxed as it wasn't a match) until I found the sweet spot but if I ever get to a match where the wind is changing a lot I'll probably struggle.
Your observation is pretty much the norm with long range and mountainous (hills and valleys) terrain, wind can be very different along the way to the target than it is at the shooters position. The Kestrel gets you wind at your position which can help, but being able to read the wind at distance will be even more crucial. This is also where being able to see trace and/or impact (splash) can also help, maybe you made a wind call at 6 mph and your target is at 832 yards, but like you observed, maybe at 400 yards it's blowing the opposite direction and so you miss by .2 or whatever it ends up being, if you can see your POI you can now adjust for that and take a follow up shot hopefully with the wind still doing the same thing. Keep in mind, I understand this all in my head but getting out there and making a cold bore first shot hit in these conditions isn't always easy. I struggle to read wind properly and look forward to working on these fundamentals in the future.
Get binos with good glass! The zeiss are excellent. I will say the laser has been good for me to1500y or so. It struggles in heavier snow fall and fog, but you cant see that far in the binos and scope in those conditions anyways. Learn the technique of unfocusing the bino to read mirrage in between you and the target to get input if wind direction is changing between your position and target.
Wish I had a pic of the field covered in wind flags at one of the Kelbly's Super Shoots. Those benchrest guys will each bring 6 or so wind flags and when you line them all up, it covers the whole field. Most years you are treated to the delightful chaos of actually getting to see what the wind is doing in a complete 100 x 100yd rectangle. Even on that basically flat hilltopish place half of those flags are pointed opposite from the other half and all of them are moving and changing in large waves. It is not what you would expect and would not be an advertizement for a wind meter. Honestly, at the long range I typically shoot at my first guess for the wind on a particular day is not what I feel when I'm sitting on the line, it's the average of what the wind has turned out to be from that shooting position on other days. There is more day to day consistency than there is translation of the wind at the shooters position to the wind from the shooter to the target. Not sure if this is true in ranges in other areas of the country with other topography but is sure is true at that range in southeastern Ohio. It is hilly and the wind tends to funnel in similar ways from day to day. However, from the shooting positions, one sort of on top of big hill and the other sort of in the intersection of a few vallyes, you get a good bit of swirling. I can't say I see a lot of people using wind meters there either lol.
I was using the Shot Marker system (which works pretty darned good) that day and was able to steer the shots in with adjustments.
It got me thinking so I purchased a book on wind reading (just need to find dome time to read it now).
Wind reading is an art for sure, I have reached a point where I feel I have good gear (guns etc) and my reloading is at a decent level so all the big steps forward from here are going to be with my skill level (wind reading being one of the biggest parts of that).
Actually that's want I want to with Vortex and SIG. Just overrated crap .If you not willing to spend at 3k for a decent Range Finder it seems you always get what you pay for
The Leica rep has been very helpful answering in-depth questions on the update to the ".com" products as well as the new PRO's. Really nice to have someone state-side to answer technical questions, trouble shoot, etc. Good on Leica!
In summary:
-The 3200.coms will NOT get the ability to run AB Elite, even with the updated app, etc. Only the PRO's will have that.
-PRO's will ship with AB lite (800? yard limit on ballistics) An "in app purchase" will allow AB Elite to be downloaded to the PRO's, as said above, no kestral needed, ballistic solutions to as far as you can bounce a laser. Price is rumored to be $150, no confirmation on the cost for AB Elite on board. Bluetooth supposedly improved on both for connecting to devices.
-Glass is not necessarily an "upgrade" 3200.com's but it is supposedly very good. 10x32's likely will give up just a bit in low-light but perhaps not enough to matter.
-All features of the upgraded app aren't completely hammered out yet. Should be an improvement though.
-Beam divergence reportedly NOT improved or smaller on the PRO's. Same as .com's: 1.2x.5 MILS
-Laser range finder effective distance will be lower on the PRO's (2500 yards) vs 3200.com's (3200 yards). Maybe biggest down-side for me with the PRO's.
-Supposedly will ship April and several reviews will be out by then.
In summary:
-The 3200.coms will NOT get the ability to run AB Elite, even with the updated app, etc. Only the PRO's will have that.
-PRO's will ship with AB lite (800? yard limit on ballistics) An "in app purchase" will allow AB Elite to be downloaded to the PRO's, as said above, no kestral needed, ballistic solutions to as far as you can bounce a laser. Price is rumored to be $150, no confirmation on the cost for AB Elite on board. Bluetooth supposedly improved on both for connecting to devices.
-Glass is not necessarily an "upgrade" 3200.com's but it is supposedly very good. 10x32's likely will give up just a bit in low-light but perhaps not enough to matter.
-All features of the upgraded app aren't completely hammered out yet. Should be an improvement though.
-Beam divergence reportedly NOT improved or smaller on the PRO's. Same as .com's: 1.2x.5 MILS
-Laser range finder effective distance will be lower on the PRO's (2500 yards) vs 3200.com's (3200 yards). Maybe biggest down-side for me with the PRO's.
-Supposedly will ship April and several reviews will be out by then.
I can’t call it improved. As far as I know, the glass, coatings, etc. are the same. The visible difference in performance (or lack thereof, actually), has been very surprising to testers. They can’t believe how good the 32s are compared to the 42s. I would say it is a factor of the Perger porro-prism design.
I am leaning more towards the PRO's for my purposes. Having AB Elite on board and no need for Kestrel will be nice for both hunting and NRL matches and will be worth the downgrade in the ranging distance and low-light transmision (I hope). Now to decide on the 8X vs 10X ones. Will be used more for matches as far as days spent on glass most likely, but will be used hunting too, possibly in low light. Likely less than 5 days a year hunting on average unless I suddenly get lots more free time, lol. Leaning towards 10X still.
I did explain that many want a 10x42 or even 12-15X pair of Alpha glass ranging binos with AB Elite on board and ideally a really good laser. He stated they are aware of that request from American precision shooters and have "passed it along to Germany." There will likely be more sizes coming in the PRO line, no indication of time-line.
I did explain that many want a 10x42 or even 12-15X pair of Alpha glass ranging binos with AB Elite on board and ideally a really good laser. He stated they are aware of that request from American precision shooters and have "passed it along to Germany." There will likely be more sizes coming in the PRO line, no indication of time-line.
I spent a fair bit of time with a Leica 2800 , Swarovski and Zeiss lrf Binos. No posed pictures or fancy charts, just glassing outdoors dawn to dusk, hunting and a few matches.
I liked the Zeiss best. All three had excellent glass and egos. I prefer the Zeiss for the button location, best for hunting and difficult positions in matches, most comfortable ergos
(obviously very subjective), better warranty than Leica and better close range performance ( bow hunting) than the swaro. The ballistics features on all three were functional but not great IMO.
I have been using the Zeiss for 2 years now and have zero complaints
I liked the Zeiss best. All three had excellent glass and egos. I prefer the Zeiss for the button location, best for hunting and difficult positions in matches, most comfortable ergos
(obviously very subjective), better warranty than Leica and better close range performance ( bow hunting) than the swaro. The ballistics features on all three were functional but not great IMO.
I have been using the Zeiss for 2 years now and have zero complaints
Thanks for the input. Kind of funny that you liked the button on the Zeiss (pinky?). That seems to be universally hated by most other people, enough to off-set all the good features they seem to have.
This new PRO will be the best ballistics any Alpha bino will have if it works as advertised. Native AB Elite is pretty stellar.
I'm not a bowhunter, do you often range with bino's in bowhunting range or is it common to use a smaller monocular style RF when the horny bull finally comes in screaming?
I prefer to just carry lrf binos rather than binos and separate lrf, plus most compact lrf units are difficult to use in low light and have smaller fov.
I haven’t ever understood the complaints about the button location on the ZEISS. It’s different than some others but not at all hard to use and I think it’s the only unit that has the ability to switch to either left or right side. Very cool feature for lefties or anyone who wants the option.
I haven’t ever understood the complaints about the button location on the ZEISS. It’s different than some others but not at all hard to use and I think it’s the only unit that has the ability to switch to either left or right side. Very cool feature for lefties or anyone who wants the option.
I apologize if this is outside of your preference and such.
But I have been down this road several times and I’ve *always* been let down by 905nm lasers. Sig, Leica, vectronix…..have owned most every one.
I finally broke down and picked up a 21 from @CoryT and while it wasn’t “cheap” it was half what they would cost at new retail and most of us have rifle/optic rigs that cost as much or more.
They *look* bulky, but as long as not using the 10x lenses, they are surprisingly light and comfortable. They only weight 1lb more than Swaro SLC 15x. And they can easily be used freehand.
While the kestrel connection is either difficult to accomplish or non existent, they are still completely worth it.
I’ve shot 90+ prs type matches. Hundreds of thousands of rounds at steel and animals, as well as at work, in non competitive environments. I can absolutely say I’m glad to be done with 905nm.
For a hunter match, I would personally wear a range card on one arm and a board on the other. I’d range with the 21’s, get dope off the card, and write what I needed on the other arm.
If you can stretch the budget for a pair of 21’s, just do it.
DT
But I have been down this road several times and I’ve *always* been let down by 905nm lasers. Sig, Leica, vectronix…..have owned most every one.
I finally broke down and picked up a 21 from @CoryT and while it wasn’t “cheap” it was half what they would cost at new retail and most of us have rifle/optic rigs that cost as much or more.
They *look* bulky, but as long as not using the 10x lenses, they are surprisingly light and comfortable. They only weight 1lb more than Swaro SLC 15x. And they can easily be used freehand.
While the kestrel connection is either difficult to accomplish or non existent, they are still completely worth it.
I’ve shot 90+ prs type matches. Hundreds of thousands of rounds at steel and animals, as well as at work, in non competitive environments. I can absolutely say I’m glad to be done with 905nm.
For a hunter match, I would personally wear a range card on one arm and a board on the other. I’d range with the 21’s, get dope off the card, and write what I needed on the other arm.
If you can stretch the budget for a pair of 21’s, just do it.
DT
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I found this very informative and helpful.
I had Sig 3K and the glass was pretty good. Performed well in low light on hunts. Certainly not top tier glass but I wasn’t held back by them. Linking to Kestrel reliably was very important. Frankly, that’s what steered me away from Leica. Hopefully they’re fixing that.
I’m looking forward to the 10K.
I had Sig 3K and the glass was pretty good. Performed well in low light on hunts. Certainly not top tier glass but I wasn’t held back by them. Linking to Kestrel reliably was very important. Frankly, that’s what steered me away from Leica. Hopefully they’re fixing that.
I’m looking forward to the 10K.
No apology necessary, thanks for taking the time. I really haven’t researched that “next level” a ton, they’ve always just seemed out of reach.
Having used and owned a Gen 1 Terrapin I understand the appeal of having a laser that just plain works, pretty much no matter what. They royally pissed me off with the way they burned people in the US having issues and I swore never again. I realize that those are the actual military units. Not sure how customer service would be for a civilian.
Where would you rank the glass on them? Sounds like ballistics on board is not a very viable option which is unfortunate. That being said you can get a lot of good work done with a good RF and an arm board with dope.
Yeah, that’s a good in depth review. The 10k’s will be interesting, I just wish they had upgraded the glass. I have the 3K’s now, pretty happy but wanted that alpha glass.
It’s Leica glass. So, it’s pretty nice.
It’s 7x which is plenty for most things. Especially when handheld. I also have the 10x lenses. But they are actually heavy unlike the 7x binos only.
The good news is, they are virtually indestructible and you rarely hear of any issues.
Well crap, something else to think about. Probably won’t spring for the 21 for now but good to have them in mind. I imagine it’s very satisfying to have that effective a laser.
I do have IV's at almost half the price of a 21, good to 5000m. You can get a BT dongle for the Kestrel from Down Range Systems. The glass is impeccable, they have a good reticle, serial data port, which can provide a remote trigger, plus night vision compatibility and a 10X option. They do far more than just find range and angle. Slant range, slope distance, multiple ranges, azimuth, inclination, horizontal distance and height difference, distance and azimuth between two objects, horizontal and vertical distance between two objects, and relative horizontal and vertical angle. Range gating and declination adjustment and a 4 or 12 point compass calibration. Connected to a PC, you can use the free program to geolocate points you range. Hard to beat.
I work for Leica and have tested the new 8x32 PROs in low light hunting conditions. Here in South Carolina, we can legally hunt until 1 hour after official sunset, so it's hard dark for about 25 minutes before you have to come out of the stand. My sample 8x32 PRO was as bright as my 56mm Leica Amplus 6 rifle scope all the way. I theorize this is because 1) you are looking through two eyes 2) the image is closer to your eye and, most importantly, 3) the Bino's twist out eyecups block out a ton of ambient light that interferes with the brightness of the image coming from the back of the scope. 10x vs. 10x and 8x vs. 8x, the 32s give up nothing in field of view. Each 32mm variant actually has a few feet more FoV respective to the same power in 42mm. I think the 42mm is a little brighter (brighter than the scope even), but if it's too dark to see through the scope, what does it matter? What you lose going from 42mm to 32mm is: 1) a little bit of resolution, due to the smaller objectives. 10x42s allow you to see a little more detail than 10x32s when the glass quality is equal. 2) As mentioned, the 10x32s also have a smaller exit pupil vs. 10x42s. This does mean you lose a little light as mentioned above, but to me, the real difference in the smaller exit pupil is you get a little more eye fatigue from long term glassing through the smaller exit pupil. -When you were a kid, you may have noticed it's easier to look through a paper towel tube than a drink straw. This is the example I like to use to explain how greater eye fatigue occurs when looking through a smaller exit pupil. So long story short, for many people, the 'benefits' of the smaller, lighter form factor of the 32 PROs will far outweigh the 'cost' of the smaller objectives. And Doug is right, 32mm Geovids is one of, if not the most requested products we've received in the nearly 14 years I've worked at Leica. I'll go down this thread and try to chime in on other folks' comments and questions where appropriate.
The new BlueTooth system is about 10x faster to connect, stays connected about 10x farther, and the app is much easier to use and navigate, while being much more powerful of a tool. You can build target cards and range cards in the app, there is a HUD feature that allows you to remote control the rangefinder (say when mounted on a tripod and you do want to press the range button on the unit, which could move it off the intended target). Also, no one has mentioned the GPS integration feature that allows the user to mark a target on GoogleMaps, BaseMap and Garmin ForeTrex and Delta Tactics watches -WITHOUT cellular signal. All you need is your phone's GPS to be working to mark a target such as a down elk that you know you can't get to directly. You can now mark the elk's location, back out of your position, approach it from a completely different direction and go right to it.
Sorry! We had to man two booths at two different shows that week (SHOT and SCI) and weren't able to to a hands-on product video at SHOT. We have units coming in soon to distribute to testers and writers for their evaluation and hope to have their reviews and videos up by the time the PROs start shipping in April.
Those light transmission numbers are for the old Geovid R body binoculars. Light transmission for the open bridge 3200COMs and PROs is 91% in both barrels. BUT, light transmission numbers don't tell the whole story. Those numbers are for the peak light transmission across the entire visible spectrum. If you look at a light transmission chart of an optic, it's a graph of transmission across the entire visible spectrum, different values for different light wavelengths. The published number is always the highest/peak light transmission at one wavelength -because manufacturers want to show the highest number because they know the market tends to shop based on specs as much as they shop on actual testing. More telling is the shape or flatness of this graph. The higher the light transmission across the entire spectrum, the brighter the optic. An optic with a higher peak number can be less bright than an optic with a lower peak number, IF the rest of the curve/graph is higher in the non-peak wavelengths. Think of it in terms of the total surface area under the graph. The larger the surface area under the graph line, the potentially brighter the optic. Also, optics who's graph charts show steep peaks in the graph will typically emphasize the color at that peak when you look through them. This is why some optics have a cool, blue personality or a warm red/orange/yellow personality. -Their graphs peak in those wavelengths. Leica optics' graph lines tend to graph flatter, more like a plateau, than other brands optics. This is why Leica optics often seem more color neutral. All the colors are bright and rich, but they don't have a blue or yellow cast to their color when you look through them. This also results in less eye fatigue for the user. The closer to real/natural the colors look, the less your eyes have to compensate for what they are seeing. This reduction in the need for your eyes to compensate results in a reduction in eye fatigue, as well as a more natural view.
Thank you for that AH, I am familiar with the differing light wavelengths and that manufacturer's tend to cherry pick the best. I also knew the article referenced was for older Leica Geovid's so it is good to know that Leica now has the same transmission in both barrels. The 8x32 Pro's are very intriguing to me but I was surprised to see they aren't that much lighter than the 8x42's, regardless I may have to try to get my hands on some to check out at some point.
Can you ask the executives to manufacture a 15x56 with a laser rangefinder and Applied Ballistics? Maybe something with an etch reticle as well?
There is a niche product in the long range market that is missing and tends to be filled with people buying both a LRF binocular or laser rangefinder and a larger binocular set.
Yeah, I have a pair of the Victory RFs as well. I'm puzzled at the comments about button location. It works fine where they are. It's nice not having to also have a kestrel with for elevation.
@ahboykin , thank you for the responses. As I said in our email exchange, it was very helpful to have your input. It’s re-assuring to have a rep that responds to questions and issues from us end users.
Also may I introduce @BigJimFish to @ahboykin. Big Jim would be an excellent person to do a professional review of the new pro’s. He has several articles published here on the website and I’m sure can provide any needed references. I’m sure many users would love to see a comparison of the 8x32 and 10x32’s to each other and some 10x42’s, etc. Optics aren’t the only question for these that will need to be answered for potential buyers but many will be wondering what exactly they will be giving up by going to a x32.
Personally I want to know if the 10x32’s especially will be sufficient optically 1. In low light hunting and comp scenarios and 2. for sitting behind all day glassing. It would be a let down to buy alpha glass like the Leica PRO and get eye fatigue because of having to “settle” for x32’s to get onboard ballistics and environmentals only offered by the new Geovids.
Also may I introduce @BigJimFish to @ahboykin. Big Jim would be an excellent person to do a professional review of the new pro’s. He has several articles published here on the website and I’m sure can provide any needed references. I’m sure many users would love to see a comparison of the 8x32 and 10x32’s to each other and some 10x42’s, etc. Optics aren’t the only question for these that will need to be answered for potential buyers but many will be wondering what exactly they will be giving up by going to a x32.
Personally I want to know if the 10x32’s especially will be sufficient optically 1. In low light hunting and comp scenarios and 2. for sitting behind all day glassing. It would be a let down to buy alpha glass like the Leica PRO and get eye fatigue because of having to “settle” for x32’s to get onboard ballistics and environmentals only offered by the new Geovids.
I have a pair of Swaros, used it for about 3 full seasons now. At first I liked it. Now, not so much. By the end of season one, I was looking for better options. This past season I was spotting for my wife, hunting fields in Central Pennsylvania, and couldn’t get accurate readings once we got to 30mins to sundown. I’ve also found that the light red numbers can be unreadable when hunting daylight conditions. The button can also be hit or miss. As luck would have it, one of my hunting partners lent me his Leicas during that hunt and I found them to be much better in low light. After 3 seasons I can say with positivity there will be no more Swaros for me. I think from a basic standpoint range finding binoculars seem to be hit and miss across the board. Somewhere along the lines of production the electronics seem to take priority over clarity.
Update: My dad pulled the trigger on the 10x42 Geovid 3200.coms today. I’m likely holding out for the 10x32 PRO’s. His priorities were optical quality due to his eyesight getting worse, and a good rangefinder. He’s not super tech savvy and I didn’t picture him using the base map feature, etc.
We didn’t have a ton of time but we threw them on a tripod in my driveway and were messing around with them before he headed home. I ranged a thick telephone pole at 1290 yards with ease. Range comes back very quickly but then sits there a while before you can range again.
Observations-
Good:
1. Glass is phenomenal. Pretty big upgrade from my SIG 3000’s.
2. Rangefinder seems good. Hard to tell in a subdivision, more work in the field will tell better what to expect but it seems good, as others have reported.
3. Comfortable to hold/Ergonomic.
4. Easy to get behind, adjustable eye cups, nice diopter knobs.
Bad:
1. The Leica Hunting app is not very user friendly. It’s hard to connect the bino to a smart phone and seems to time out very quickly. Didn’t even try the kestrel.
2. A bit large for many bino harnesses.
3. Included user manual is next to useless for a complex, non -intuitive menu on the bino itself.
Overall he’s excited. We’ll put more time on them and reach out to Leica if we continue to have issues programming them. Leica rep has been pretty cool so far.
I’m hoping A- the new Leica App improves user interface a lot for the .coms.
B-The menu and onboard ballistics are more streamlined and simple on the PRO’s.
C-both the app update and PRO’s come out on Leica’s projected timeline.
We didn’t have a ton of time but we threw them on a tripod in my driveway and were messing around with them before he headed home. I ranged a thick telephone pole at 1290 yards with ease. Range comes back very quickly but then sits there a while before you can range again.
Observations-
Good:
1. Glass is phenomenal. Pretty big upgrade from my SIG 3000’s.
2. Rangefinder seems good. Hard to tell in a subdivision, more work in the field will tell better what to expect but it seems good, as others have reported.
3. Comfortable to hold/Ergonomic.
4. Easy to get behind, adjustable eye cups, nice diopter knobs.
Bad:
1. The Leica Hunting app is not very user friendly. It’s hard to connect the bino to a smart phone and seems to time out very quickly. Didn’t even try the kestrel.
2. A bit large for many bino harnesses.
3. Included user manual is next to useless for a complex, non -intuitive menu on the bino itself.
Overall he’s excited. We’ll put more time on them and reach out to Leica if we continue to have issues programming them. Leica rep has been pretty cool so far.
I’m hoping A- the new Leica App improves user interface a lot for the .coms.
B-The menu and onboard ballistics are more streamlined and simple on the PRO’s.
C-both the app update and PRO’s come out on Leica’s projected timeline.
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So since your dad isn’t going to be connecting Bluetooth or anything like that, he was just looking for the best optical experience and felt that came from the Leica’s? I agree, it is very difficult to get a true idea of quality inside a store, and if diopter was way off on one set that could skew results too, but glad to hear he’s enjoying the 3200’s. I’m torn between 8x42 3200.com or 8x32 Pro, not much weight difference but I do like the faster and better connectivity between Kestrel
You're still going to need a Kestrel, homie.
No way around that. That weather flow meter they give you for measuring wind speed pairs with your phone. It's janky and cumbersome and a pita to use. Plus phone batteries don't always stay fresh on cold days.
I'm pretty good estimating wind speeds into the teens, but when we hit 20s and above, forget it. What's the difference between 20 and 30 feel like? They sure look the same on terrain. What about gusts? How do you measure that?
IMO the whole "it's got your ballistics calculator on it!!!!" is a fuckin gimmick. It's also a gimmick that's been around a while.
I got my hands on the Kilo 2400 abs for a review back in the day, that had a full AB elite package on it and was the same situation.
Base your decision on whether or not the glass quality meets your needs and whether the laser satisfies what your desires are do NOT spend extra for bullshit software or you're likely to regret the decision.
In the end you'll be back to using your Kestrel because it's waterproof, weatherproof, and as soon as you measure the wind speeds you're holding the ballistic solution in your hands and you don't have to give yourself carpal tunnel trying to input or change the speed and direction in a clunky bino button interface.
We've both got a little cash coming, I'm looking at the Sig 10k for the laser, couldn't GAF about software
His priority was having really nice optics, followed closely by a good long-range rangefinder. Based off the multiple threads here, a few YouTube reviews covering “the big three” and some other research we settled on the Leica 3200 geovids for him. He likely won’t ever shoot an NRL Hunter match, and we discussed having good DA dope cards for elevation and wind as “backups” to phone, kestrel or binos with ballistics (which we should all have anyways). He’s doing well to just fire up his Kestrel 3500 and get DA manually input into his phone.
I am irritated how complicated the current Leica app and Binocular menu seems. It’s a common complaint against the Leica’s, which their reps seem to recognize. We’ll see if the new interface improves the user experience with the new Leica app on the 3200’s. I really hope it does.
I went back and forth on advising my Pop’s hold out for the PRO’s or even the SIG 10K’s, just to have an easier time getting dope from the binos. Ultimately we decided that the ballistics portion Leica is promising is a big maybe at this point, on the PRO’s, but the optics and laser of the 3200’s was pretty well proven. Simple is better for him. At some point we’ll get him a Kestrel with AB or 4DOF onboard. His vision is such that small numbers are hard though.
I think for him these will be a good fit for a while as long as the rangefinder performs. If we can get the ballistics to line up close for him for a couple rifles and he can get that to work with limited practice then I’ll be really pleased.
I’m looking forward to actual reviews on the the new PRO’s, especially on the AB Elite, the interface, and the rangefinder and optical performance. We already know the max ranging distances will likely suffer, as will the optics on the x32’s. I want to know by how much. Those answers will likely determine what I ultimately settle on.
Again, any bino manufacturers listening: PRS/NRL and long range hunters want: Alpha glass 10,12,15x42 binos with top of the line rangefinders that reliably give real world readings to 3K yards/meters. A real bonus would be reliable and simple pairing with a Kestrel (because a bino likely won’t do Wind well until Wind/laser tech gets better and cheaper). Unlimited drop ballistics with an accurate engine like AB or 4DOF native to the bino would be great too, with the realization that wind is hard for a bino to do without a separate wind meter with current tech. You do that, you own the market for binos in our world if you keep the price around $3-4k.
I think people would love to see Vortex or Sig take their current RF bino’s, add alpha glass as an optional up-charge and boom, you’ve given the market what it wants.
Good points bro, I don’t think anyone will be getting rid of their kestrel anytime soon in lieu of on-board ballistics, or sensors, in the bino’s.
I’d be happy with simply having reliable, unlimited-distance elevation dope in a bino, along with alpha glass and a good laser for ranging. We’ll see if the Leica PRO’s deliver that.
Nice. What distances do they reliably range stuff like steel targets, animals, small bushes etc would you say?
I feel like I didn’t address your question fully in my other post so here goes:
Based off what we know so far comparing the 8x42 3200’s and the 8x32 PRO I can answer a bit but until the PRO’s are out in the wild it will be hard for you to make that decision I think.
If Leica really did improve connectivity on the PRO’s that will be a big deal. The 3200’s entire menu and electronics seem buggy and hard to use. Their connectivity to a Kestrel has been a common complaint too, I haven’t messed with that yet. These issues have even frozen up the rangefinder occasionally, which is not comforting.
Optics-wise the 8x42 is simply going to be better, as we discussed. How much better remains to be seen. From what you and others said the difference between the 32mm and 42mm objective lens will likely matter more on the 10x than the 8x, so that’s good news for you if you settle on the PRO’s. I personally would rather have a 10x42 or 12x42 PRO based off what I have read, like you said, not much weight difference. Those probably won’t be available for years, especially if Putin starts WW3.
Will be nice to see independent reviews, hopefully in the next few months. I have a set of the 10x32 PRO’s on order from Eurooptics, Leica is saying they’re getting PROs out this month to reviewers and the first production batch will come in April but I’ll believe it when I see it. Hope this helps, I’ll update and maybe attempt a comparison between the 3200 10x42’s and the PRO 10x32’s when possible later this year.
App and display could use improvement, I have the 2800.com, but seeing the display in the Sig 10k has me seriously thinking about that - it’s the simple things, like having both elevation and wind displayed on the same screen and for more than 3 microseconds. Wish Sig would come out with an upgraded glass version, or Vortex come out with a UHD version of their Fury. It almost feels like Europe has a stranglehold on the alpha class LRF market, Sig and Vortex know these units sell, why they don’t make something with better glass is beyond me.
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