The Sig Kilo10k-ABS HD laser rangefinding binoculars review is done and posted.
Sig Kilo 10K-ABS HD ranging a person at >2k yards
Sig Kilo 10K-ABS HD ranging a person at >2k yards
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The BIG 3 Bino/Rangefinders (or 4?) Swaro EL RF, Leica 3200’s , Sig 10K or Ziess?
- Thread starter verdugo60
- Start date
A Short(ish) discussion of the merits of Leica Geovid Pro 32's vs Sig Kilo 10K - HDs
A number of folks have been interested in comparing the Sig Kilo 10k's with the Leica Geovid pro's since the release of these two new flagship products. Quite frankly, I think the consumer is right here in looking to make this comparison. I also find this amusing as neither company actually seems to view the other as a primary competitor in the marketplace. The crux of the comparison comes partially down to the aspects of performance in which both binoculars equally satisfy the basic needs of most users and at a similar price point and partially to how wildly different the two are outside of satisfying those core needs. I believe these core needs are ranging reliably out to 1,000yds, and providing excellent ballistic solutions onboard. Both binos do these two thing remarkably well, and they not terribly far apart in price. Currently, the Sig's are being advertized for $2,499 at most web retailers with the Leicas at 2,899 (+$150 for AB elite). I should add here that I recommend buyers generally call retailers and ask if they can get a better price as often retailers are willing to sell below MAP.
Lets start with how each of these binos is actually quite similar when it comes to the performance of the basic things I think most shooter is looking for in them. This comes down to mid distance ~1,000yd ranging and ballistics. Under the hood, both of these binos are running the same software (we will assume for the purposes of this comparison all Leica users upgraded to AB Elite as all long range shooters already dropping that much coin really should). Not only are both binos running the same AB formulas, but the same app developer, the one AB uses, actually did the software on each. The skin looks different, but the numbers are the same and I'm really impressed with those numbers. The custom and personal ballistic models AB is putting out are really good models, much better than the G7 based models I have used in the past. Several times now I have been surprised to not need to true one of these AB elite models. It was correct right out the gate to the tenth mill all the way until the bullet reached transonic. I have not seen this before with ballistic models and therefore I see a huge appeal in going with LRF binos that have this baked in. Both of these do, and both are usable in this fashion, unteathered from the smartphone app.
Out to around 1,000 yards both rangefinders are also quite similar in ranging performance. They both have pretty tight, if slightly different beam divergence and in practice, they perform quite similarly at these distances. Both are having no trouble ranging near everything here and when they can't catch a plate because it is too small they have no issue ranging the ground at the base of post hanging it. There are probably a few situations where the ranging modes of the sig might be able to catch something that the Leica can't, but in practice, I haven't actually encountered any of those situations. Both basically ranged everything out to 1k yds.
Now, if both of these rangefinders, due to the afore mentioned factors, meet your basic needs, which should you choose? Both the Sig 10k's and the Leica Geovid pro's offer some unique areas of excellence.
Sig Kilo 10K vs. Leica Geovid Pro live smartphone ranging screens.
I'll start with the areas in which the Sig 10k's uniquely excel. As you go out beyond 1,000 yards, the 10k's increasingly are able to range more targets than not only the Leica Geovids, but also any other rangefinder anywhere near their price. These things can range a person at more than 2,000 yards and will hit a tree line at 4,000. If your usage involves ranging targets, really, really, far away, you probably don't need me to tell you this though. You probably already have 10k's because they are currently pretty much standing alone as the only 905nm ranging product that is reliably ranging actual targets beyond a mile. They are an obvious ELR choice. Also of interest to the competitive shooter is the Sig 10k's unique pixel based display. Most rangefinders use a segmented display similar to older digital clocks. Sig is using a 304x256 pixel AMOLED display that allows lots of stuff to be able to be simultaneously displayed. The post range display includes the yardage, compass bearing, DA, inclination, drop, drift, terminal velocity, and terminal energy. It is all right there the moment you range. This display also gives you a robust menu system that is easy to navigate without three letter acornyms you will forget. This makes it easy to change ranging mode or to switch between the 30 ballistic profiles you can store onboard. Other plusses for the 10k are the BDX system, nice extras such as a wind meter that is included and can communicate directly with the binos, and a nice carrying harness. It's has the downside, that due to the constraints of the coatings required for the excellent display, things look blue through the 10k's. This is mostly cosmetic, but it is quite noticeable.
The biggest thing that the Leica Geovids excel at outside of meeting those basic rangefinding and ballistic needs is performance as binoculars. These things look, feel, and perform like high end bird watching binoculars. Their open frame and general shape is super comfortable. Their controls are butter smooth, and the image they deliver is excellent. If you want to use your rangefinding binoculars a good deal outside of rangefinding duty, these are the obvious choice. In this way they would be in the vein of the Swarovski EL ranges or Zeiss Victory RF's except that they are significantly cheaper, and, when you add AB Elite, they have better ballistic software. The Leica Geovid Pros are also currently in 32mm, though 42's are coming next year. You have, or will soon have, a lot of choices in both magnification and size. The 10k's only come in 10x42mm with no other options planned. Lastly, when compared to the Sig's, Leica currently gives you a lot more access to AB's functions when not connected to the binoculars. You can true the muzzle velocity and DSF using existing data and access range cards and target cards unconnected. So, you can easily spitball loads or compare ballistics on different calibers you might be looking into. You can also true muzzle velocity at distances below 300yds, I must for slower cartridges such as .22lr. Hopefully Sig will open this stuff up in the future. Software can change, and I've pushed for it, but right now, only Leica lets you easily muck about.
So, there you go, a quick comparison of the Sig 10k's with the Leica Geovid pros. I think both of these binos will meet most long range shooters most central needs and each sure offers some unique, different, and excellent characteristics beyond that.
A number of folks have been interested in comparing the Sig Kilo 10k's with the Leica Geovid pro's since the release of these two new flagship products. Quite frankly, I think the consumer is right here in looking to make this comparison. I also find this amusing as neither company actually seems to view the other as a primary competitor in the marketplace. The crux of the comparison comes partially down to the aspects of performance in which both binoculars equally satisfy the basic needs of most users and at a similar price point and partially to how wildly different the two are outside of satisfying those core needs. I believe these core needs are ranging reliably out to 1,000yds, and providing excellent ballistic solutions onboard. Both binos do these two thing remarkably well, and they not terribly far apart in price. Currently, the Sig's are being advertized for $2,499 at most web retailers with the Leicas at 2,899 (+$150 for AB elite). I should add here that I recommend buyers generally call retailers and ask if they can get a better price as often retailers are willing to sell below MAP.
Lets start with how each of these binos is actually quite similar when it comes to the performance of the basic things I think most shooter is looking for in them. This comes down to mid distance ~1,000yd ranging and ballistics. Under the hood, both of these binos are running the same software (we will assume for the purposes of this comparison all Leica users upgraded to AB Elite as all long range shooters already dropping that much coin really should). Not only are both binos running the same AB formulas, but the same app developer, the one AB uses, actually did the software on each. The skin looks different, but the numbers are the same and I'm really impressed with those numbers. The custom and personal ballistic models AB is putting out are really good models, much better than the G7 based models I have used in the past. Several times now I have been surprised to not need to true one of these AB elite models. It was correct right out the gate to the tenth mill all the way until the bullet reached transonic. I have not seen this before with ballistic models and therefore I see a huge appeal in going with LRF binos that have this baked in. Both of these do, and both are usable in this fashion, unteathered from the smartphone app.
Out to around 1,000 yards both rangefinders are also quite similar in ranging performance. They both have pretty tight, if slightly different beam divergence and in practice, they perform quite similarly at these distances. Both are having no trouble ranging near everything here and when they can't catch a plate because it is too small they have no issue ranging the ground at the base of post hanging it. There are probably a few situations where the ranging modes of the sig might be able to catch something that the Leica can't, but in practice, I haven't actually encountered any of those situations. Both basically ranged everything out to 1k yds.
Now, if both of these rangefinders, due to the afore mentioned factors, meet your basic needs, which should you choose? Both the Sig 10k's and the Leica Geovid pro's offer some unique areas of excellence.
Sig Kilo 10K vs. Leica Geovid Pro live smartphone ranging screens.
I'll start with the areas in which the Sig 10k's uniquely excel. As you go out beyond 1,000 yards, the 10k's increasingly are able to range more targets than not only the Leica Geovids, but also any other rangefinder anywhere near their price. These things can range a person at more than 2,000 yards and will hit a tree line at 4,000. If your usage involves ranging targets, really, really, far away, you probably don't need me to tell you this though. You probably already have 10k's because they are currently pretty much standing alone as the only 905nm ranging product that is reliably ranging actual targets beyond a mile. They are an obvious ELR choice. Also of interest to the competitive shooter is the Sig 10k's unique pixel based display. Most rangefinders use a segmented display similar to older digital clocks. Sig is using a 304x256 pixel AMOLED display that allows lots of stuff to be able to be simultaneously displayed. The post range display includes the yardage, compass bearing, DA, inclination, drop, drift, terminal velocity, and terminal energy. It is all right there the moment you range. This display also gives you a robust menu system that is easy to navigate without three letter acornyms you will forget. This makes it easy to change ranging mode or to switch between the 30 ballistic profiles you can store onboard. Other plusses for the 10k are the BDX system, nice extras such as a wind meter that is included and can communicate directly with the binos, and a nice carrying harness. It's has the downside, that due to the constraints of the coatings required for the excellent display, things look blue through the 10k's. This is mostly cosmetic, but it is quite noticeable.
The biggest thing that the Leica Geovids excel at outside of meeting those basic rangefinding and ballistic needs is performance as binoculars. These things look, feel, and perform like high end bird watching binoculars. Their open frame and general shape is super comfortable. Their controls are butter smooth, and the image they deliver is excellent. If you want to use your rangefinding binoculars a good deal outside of rangefinding duty, these are the obvious choice. In this way they would be in the vein of the Swarovski EL ranges or Zeiss Victory RF's except that they are significantly cheaper, and, when you add AB Elite, they have better ballistic software. The Leica Geovid Pros are also currently in 32mm, though 42's are coming next year. You have, or will soon have, a lot of choices in both magnification and size. The 10k's only come in 10x42mm with no other options planned. Lastly, when compared to the Sig's, Leica currently gives you a lot more access to AB's functions when not connected to the binoculars. You can true the muzzle velocity and DSF using existing data and access range cards and target cards unconnected. So, you can easily spitball loads or compare ballistics on different calibers you might be looking into. You can also true muzzle velocity at distances below 300yds, I must for slower cartridges such as .22lr. Hopefully Sig will open this stuff up in the future. Software can change, and I've pushed for it, but right now, only Leica lets you easily muck about.
So, there you go, a quick comparison of the Sig 10k's with the Leica Geovid pros. I think both of these binos will meet most long range shooters most central needs and each sure offers some unique, different, and excellent characteristics beyond that.
Attachments
@verdugo60 I believe you said you have now used the 10x42 Geovid pros and said they were an upgrade from the 10x32’s…can you elaborate and give a rundown of your experience with the 10x42’s thus far?
I have a pair of 10x42 EL Range TA’s and love the glass. The speed of the laser and ranging - and elevation solution is also great but at an NRL Hunter match in OK this year myself and @Sprayed99 had difficulty getting the same accurate and speedy ranging past 800 yards on steel. Might have been a one off based on that stage and the light but we both experienced that.
As far as I know the Swaro’s don’t provide a wind hold, which itself is a bummer compared to the Leica’s. The ballistic solutions re: elevation was within 0.1 mils out to 1200 per the YouTube video review of them done by EuroOptic’s Jason Barney. I can confirm I have had the same experience. But it doesn’t talk to the kestrel either, so, maybe the Leica is still the best for the Alpha glass class. I have played with the 10x32 Geovid Pros and the Swaros were clearly better glass, but the difference might not be meaningful to most and maybe as many people prefer the Leica glass over the Swaro glass.
I have a pair of 10x42 EL Range TA’s and love the glass. The speed of the laser and ranging - and elevation solution is also great but at an NRL Hunter match in OK this year myself and @Sprayed99 had difficulty getting the same accurate and speedy ranging past 800 yards on steel. Might have been a one off based on that stage and the light but we both experienced that.
As far as I know the Swaro’s don’t provide a wind hold, which itself is a bummer compared to the Leica’s. The ballistic solutions re: elevation was within 0.1 mils out to 1200 per the YouTube video review of them done by EuroOptic’s Jason Barney. I can confirm I have had the same experience. But it doesn’t talk to the kestrel either, so, maybe the Leica is still the best for the Alpha glass class. I have played with the 10x32 Geovid Pros and the Swaros were clearly better glass, but the difference might not be meaningful to most and maybe as many people prefer the Leica glass over the Swaro glass.
I have looked through, or used all of the aforementioned rf binos in good through terrible conditions. While some may claim the sigs are in the same league as the Leicas or Swaros, this is absurd. The glass quality of the Sigs is abysmal. If it is foggy, rainy, smoky at all- the sigs look like you’re looking through a dirty aquarium. If you can’t find your target, you definitely can’t range it so their awesome laser becomes a moot point. The swaros are the best observation device out of all of them as others have mentioned but their laser can struggle past 800, especially in non-ideal conditions. The Leica .coms and Pro units are still the best all around. They have great glass and a very good laser rf function. They simply perform. They are slower to spit out ballistics but they are quite adequate with that and you save a lot of time by being able to actually acquire your game/target faster.
There's now the new Revic Acura BLR10b Binocular Laser Rangefinder 10x42 with Ballistics to consider. Top electronic features and quality optics
I have, or have had, all of these with the exception of the Swaros. My NRL Hunter teammate uses the Swaros which are now a monocular. Swaro has no loaners for him so he's stuck with them for matches.
I looked through two different pairs of the above-mentioned Revic's and was impressed. They're certainly in the same realm as the others listed with better glass than the 10K. Definitely worth a look.
I looked through two different pairs of the above-mentioned Revic's and was impressed. They're certainly in the same realm as the others listed with better glass than the 10K. Definitely worth a look.
If you want a 15x LRF bino there’s the Leica Geovid R 15x56 (provided you don’t need connectivity to a kestrel or a phone).
I own the previous model (max 1200 yds) and I can say they are very very nice.
New ones have a 2000yd range. I think it is the only LRF bino out there at 15x. A gotcha might be the EHR (equiv horizontal range) is artificially limited to 1200 yds, which is dumb. Manual says it’s for “safety.” I think that’s a euro law thing that the new Geovid Pros get around via an up-charge for AB which unlocks their full range for EHR.
I called Leica and they told me the new and old models have the same (excellent) optics but on the new ones they improved the laser and ergros (two buttons instead of one, moved button from left hand to right, more eyecup positions).
Anyway, as a colony hunter the prev version works great for me.
I own the previous model (max 1200 yds) and I can say they are very very nice.
New ones have a 2000yd range. I think it is the only LRF bino out there at 15x. A gotcha might be the EHR (equiv horizontal range) is artificially limited to 1200 yds, which is dumb. Manual says it’s for “safety.” I think that’s a euro law thing that the new Geovid Pros get around via an up-charge for AB which unlocks their full range for EHR.
I called Leica and they told me the new and old models have the same (excellent) optics but on the new ones they improved the laser and ergros (two buttons instead of one, moved button from left hand to right, more eyecup positions).
Anyway, as a colony hunter the prev version works great for me.
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I have had similar issues with the laser in the SWARO's at the most recent NRL Hunter match. Lasers in some pairs are better than others supposedly but it is the weak link of the SWARO's.@verdugo60 I believe you said you have now used the 10x42 Geovid pros and said they were an upgrade from the 10x32’s…can you elaborate and give a rundown of your experience with the 10x42’s thus far?
I have a pair of 10x42 EL Range TA’s and love the glass. The speed of the laser and ranging - and elevation solution is also great but at an NRL Hunter match in OK this year myself and @Sprayed99 had difficulty getting the same accurate and speedy ranging past 800 yards on steel. Might have been a one off based on that stage and the light but we both experienced that.
As far as I know the Swaro’s don’t provide a wind hold, which itself is a bummer compared to the Leica’s. The ballistic solutions re: elevation was within 0.1 mils out to 1200 per the YouTube video review of them done by EuroOptic’s Jason Barney. I can confirm I have had the same experience. But it doesn’t talk to the kestrel either, so, maybe the Leica is still the best for the Alpha glass class. I have played with the 10x32 Geovid Pros and the Swaros were clearly better glass, but the difference might not be meaningful to most and maybe as many people prefer the Leica glass over the Swaro glass.
Having wind in the bino is not a huge deal for me, I run a backup armboard with hard data and carry a kestrel to use before a stage when needed. It's not like you can update wind in the Leica's on the clock as it changes anyways. Good news is that the glass quality of the SWARO's is phenomenal and actually helped me CLEAN a stage that most others zeroed. Dark target backed by a wet, grey cliffside. Guys with SIG's and Vortex Fury's were not finding it very easily, most timed out.
The SWARO also gave me great data at my last two matches WHEN I COULD RANGE STUFF. I was particularily worried about this match because of the high angles, many people struggled with their dope figuring out the corrected distances and different settings in the their solvers but the EL Ranges did great at it.
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I went with a pair of the Revic Acura Blr10b's with the intent of selling a mono rangefinder and a pair of Nikon Monarch HG's. After receiving the Revic's (and selling the Nikon Mono rangefinder) I have decided to keep my Nikon HG's. For the price, the glass is extremely hard to beat and I feel they can hold their own against the high end Leica, Zeiss, and Swaro's. The glass in the Revic's is very nice, but is slightly soft on the extreme outer edge of the periphery. The laser rangefinder on the Revic's is absolutely phenomenal and second to none in my view! YMMV... 
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I’m in the process of looking for some LRF binoculars for hunting and I’m finding it difficult to throw my money out there.I went with a pair of the Revic Acura Blr10b's with the intent of selling a mono rangefinder and a pair of Nikon Monarch HG's. After receiving the Revic's (and selling the Nikon Mono rangefinder) I have decided to keep my Nikon HG's. For the price, the glass is extremely hard to beat and I feel they can hold their own against the high end Leica, Zeiss, and Swaro's. The glass in the Revic's in the center portion of them is very nice, but is soft on the outer 8-10% of the periphery. On the other hand, the laser rangefinder on them is absolutely phenomenal and second to none as far a range finding binoculars in my view! YMMV...
I was all in on the Revic until I saw it won’t connect to a Kestrel and instead you have to manually input the wind. For hunting that’s a huge huge miss IMHO on what seems to be a solid LRF binocular with good glass.
Sig Kilo10…no way do I buy those for hunting. My buddy has a pair and while they are great at the range, that funky blue tint is an absolute killer in the woods. On a rainy day I felt like I was looking thru a tinted window. No idea what the guys at Sig were thinking.
The Swavorski EL TA looks nice but the app is clunky and I’ve read several reports of them fogging up. The only nice thing I’ve seen there is several vendors have offered to discount them quite heavily so they are right there with the Leicas if you can live with the app and fogging. I guess the good news there is the app could conceivably be updated along the way.
I like the Leica but I think it’s a joke you have to pony up another 150 bucks to get the Elite AB when you’re already paying for an elite LRFB. Yeah I know, you gotta pay to play but WTF especially when you are limited to an 800M correction? That plus the clunky app is a tough pill at 3200.00.
Outside of my complaints, overall the Leica seems to be the best rounded package out there right now in spite of the AB solution bs. The Sig 10k would be a home run if not for the crazy blue tint.
The Geovid Pro app is not clunky. You may be thinking of the older app with the 3200's. It's simple and intuitive.
Leica's not the only one that you have to pay for the full AB. I believe there's some sort of restriction in Germany on distance RF's can use so they let you upgrade for the full AB.
I thought putting wind in the binos was a great idea until I started trying to do it. Unless you've got time to press all the buttons or connect it to the app it's not worth. If you need something to give you the wind the kestrel is way faster and easier.
I agree, like I said, doing wind in a rush is not ideal on ANY bino. Additionaly, Leica Pro's display yardage for two seconds, elevation correction for two seconds and then wind for two seconds. So it's a full 6 second cycle that you're waiting on for one target. There's no way to program the bino to different display times. Luckily you CAN interrupt the cycle by hitting the range button again but it's not super fast. Probably not a huge deal in most hunting situations but in a field match, ranging targets on the clock it feels long.
I like the idea of not needing an extra piece of gear but the kestrel weighs next to nothing and if I'm in a hunting scenario where I have time to prep a shot on a bedded or grazing animal then I'll likely pull out the kestrel anyways. Other solutions would be to carry a hard card (which you should have anyways) with wind and elevation and understand the "gun number" concept and practice that as well.
At this point there is no perfect RF bino. You have to decide what your priorites are: glass quality, display, and laser "strength" and go from there.
If I had to guess I would say SIG is the most likely to innovate quickly and give us something many of us want: an updated 10K or similar bino with (hopefully) above average glass, a great laser and ballistic display. Leica and Swaro are in the European mindset and will LIKELY consider their current offerings "good enough" for a decade at a time like they have in the past.
This is my greatest frustration with Leica and other mfr's - why they can't figure out putting all that info on one screen that can be paused is beyond me, this is where Sig excels with the 10k and 8k (but for some reason crippled the 6k and 5k with the separate display issue).
It's not so much the weight for me but the issue with having another device and some of the issues that can bring, I'd rather have one device that does everything I need.
Agree, I always make charts with my ballistics based on atmospherics I predict I'll encounter when I go out, you can also put stickers on your rear cap with quick reference.
And there likely never will be just like there is no perfect scope, we always seem to find something wrong no matter how good a product a mfr gives us (human nature? or cultural brainwashing?). For me, the "perfect" LRF bino would be Swaro glass with interchangeable LRF hardware modules where every few years you could swap the LRF unit to get better/newer features, and Sig style display that shows everything in one. I have come to the conclusion that investing in an LRF Bino is not really an "investment" as you'll lose 25% every year as longer as newer models with latest tech get released.
Sig has been the quickest to update, but they seem committed to giving us subpar glass, yes, I understand they say they have to have the blue tint to give the brightest display, but I would gladly sacrifice bright for clear glass... maybe someday.
I found the Leica app a bit slow and clunky when paired with my iPhone 14 pro. Could simply be their app needs updating but I found the Revic and Sig apps much faster and much more detailed.
Regarding the blue tint…if that’s what you mean by “subpar glass”. @BigJimFish mentioned the tint was to make the new display readable (that’s my memory of it, anyway, could be wrong)
Carry on…
The glass is subpar on the current 10K's AND has blue tint, as is well documented in complaints going back to when they were first released. If Sig gets rid of the blue tint (which you are correct, was to enable the display) AND upgrades glass quality they will be a very strong contender because the laser and display are pretty awesome.
For many shooters the glass in the Sig 10k is just fine, they are very happy. So it's probably good to define (or clarify) what I mean by "subpar"... I would like the glass to have neutral color cast and offer edge to edge sharpness similar to the big (German) 3, obviously center resolution needs to hold up as well. Having seen the latest glass from Japan in various sport optics I know Sig is perfectly capable of sourcing "better" glass for their LRF optics. Hopefully the next Sig 12k/15k or whatever their replacement unit for the 10k will be will address this; however, many have brought up the issue of blue color cast and resolution previously (before 10k) and they did not address it, so it seems at least for the time being that Sig is content to deliver their products to favor their display brightness rather than overall image fidelity.
Oh yeah, I’m not saying the glass is fine. I have no opinion as I have only peeked through a pair at Cabela’s (ye gads that place sucks now).
I was super impressed with the display, however.
Currently I use a pair of non-AB Fury binos for colony varmint shooting, which is typically done when it’s nice and bright.
I’m trying to find a bino that will connect to a kestrel and provide me with real-time wind calls in the bino’s display as I rotate around.
Since no purely digital tech solution available to the public is acceptable to me, I am planning on using my Fury + wind rose + wind meter (prob kestrel) + modified Gun MPH to up my varmint game.
Here is a summary which binos do what in this space. I also list what I don’t know.
Summary
Sig Kilo 10k experience
Hello everyone. I've had my new toy about 5 days now, and just can't seem to figure something out. I have the 10k with a weather flow meter, both are Bluetooth and seem to talk to each other sometimes.... I can't see to find any documents or videos explaining how to do this on a regular...
www.snipershide.com
Most recent findings
Wind meters that allow changing DoF remotely
I'm on a journey on reading the wind, and @Jack Master 's wind rose + @lowlight 's Gun MPH has been a revelation to me (I hope I attributed those ideas correctly). I want to explore something else as well. I am going to buy a wind meter so I can train myself to guess the wind speed. I was...
www.snipershide.com
This is future tech, but eventually similar will make it into the Civvy marketOh yeah, I’m not saying the glass is fine. I have no opinion as I have only peeked through a pair at Cabela’s (ye gads that place sucks now).
I was super impressed with the display, however.
Currently I use a pair of non-AB Fury binos for colony varmint shooting, which is typically done when it’s nice and bright.
I’m trying to find a bino that will connect to a kestrel and provide me with real-time wind calls in the bino’s display as I rotate around.
Since no purely digital tech solution available to the public is acceptable to me, I am planning on using my Fury + wind rose + wind meter (prob kestrel) + modified Gun MPH to up my varmint game.
Here is a summary which binos do what in this space. I also list what I don’t know.
Summary
Sig Kilo 10k experience
Hello everyone. I've had my new toy about 5 days now, and just can't seem to figure something out. I have the 10k with a weather flow meter, both are Bluetooth and seem to talk to each other sometimes.... I can't see to find any documents or videos explaining how to do this on a regular...
Most recent findings
Wind meters that allow changing DoF remotely
I'm on a journey on reading the wind, and @Jack Master 's wind rose + @lowlight 's Gun MPH has been a revelation to me (I hope I attributed those ideas correctly). I want to explore something else as well. I am going to buy a wind meter so I can train myself to guess the wind speed. I was...
Next gen lasers/tech can identify wind at various ranges. I can see something like the above being very fun with prairie dog towns
This is future tech, but eventually similar will make it into the Civvy market
Next gen lasers/tech can identify wind at various ranges. I can see something like the above being very fun with prairie dog towns
Yeah, I saw that vid lol. Crazy-cool.
In a way, this type of tech saps the skill from something I do for fun…sort of like those crazy fish radars do for fishermen. I’m surprised those fish radars aren’t connected to a remote UAV that torpedos the chosen fish and delivers it to the boat (along with an ice-cold brewski).
So I will try to be content with a more manual version (wind rose + kestrel + LRF bino + dope).
It would be interesting to just go there with just dope + wind rose, no LRF or tech, just to see how I do.
I can see why you would want that feature while prarie dog hunting with lots of time and from a static position for several hours or more. Sounds like a fun way to burn up some powder!Oh yeah, I’m not saying the glass is fine. I have no opinion as I have only peeked through a pair at Cabela’s (ye gads that place sucks now).
I was super impressed with the display, however.
Currently I use a pair of non-AB Fury binos for colony varmint shooting, which is typically done when it’s nice and bright.
I’m trying to find a bino that will connect to a kestrel and provide me with real-time wind calls in the bino’s display as I rotate around.
Since no purely digital tech solution available to the public is acceptable to me, I am planning on using my Fury + wind rose + wind meter (prob kestrel) + modified Gun MPH to up my varmint game.
Here is a summary which binos do what in this space. I also list what I don’t know.
Summary
Sig Kilo 10k experience
Hello everyone. I've had my new toy about 5 days now, and just can't seem to figure something out. I have the 10k with a weather flow meter, both are Bluetooth and seem to talk to each other sometimes.... I can't see to find any documents or videos explaining how to do this on a regular...
Most recent findings
Wind meters that allow changing DoF remotely
I'm on a journey on reading the wind, and @Jack Master 's wind rose + @lowlight 's Gun MPH has been a revelation to me (I hope I attributed those ideas correctly). I want to explore something else as well. I am going to buy a wind meter so I can train myself to guess the wind speed. I was...
That said; I would guess that for the vast majority of people using RF bino's currently, that particular feature is pretty far down the list of needs/improvements being requested out of these units.
Most would probably prioritize good glass, a good laser to reliably lase at least 1500 yards on real-world targets, and angle compensated ballistic software, with a good display.
That’s pretty much my list. As a hunter, I’m not going to ethically take a shot on an animal past 600 yards….most guides won’t even allow it. So 600-700 yard RELIABLE laser performance is key…which means all types of weather performance. Also glass has to be way above average, and your wind and associated info needs to get to you quickly.
I’d say none of the big 3 are particularly great at all 3 or 4 of my “wants” but like everyone points out, for some reason the LRF binocular market all have 1 or 2 different things they do just ok.
As a guy at the range, I’d love to have the Sig 10k. The blue tint is fine, and it looks like you can pretty much range anything you want.
Someone needs to make a Frankensteinocular. LMAO.
I have a set of Steiners, glass is top tier, farthest I have ranged a roof top was 9235 yards!
www.steiner-optics.com
M830r LRF 1535nm | Steiner High-Quality Optics
www.steiner-optics.com
$8k+ flexin’ lolI have a set of Steiners, glass is top tier, farthest I have ranged a roof top was 9235 yards!
M830r LRF 1535nm | Steiner High-Quality Optics
Not flexing, buy once cry once 
. I use them for shooting ELR and hunting. Awesome piece of equipment
. I use them for shooting ELR and hunting. Awesome piece of equipment
When they have an 80% off sale let me knowI have a set of Steiners, glass is top tier, farthest I have ranged a roof top was 9235 yards!
M830r LRF 1535nm | Steiner High-Quality Optics
Seriously though, these have always intrigued me and I've been waiting for some of that tech to trickle down into more consumer priced units.
All my gear has been buy once cry once, but somehow I keep buying and I also keep cryingNot flexing, buy once cry once
I stole them on a Flip sale 
…Only reason I grabbed them, the price was to good to say no. I think I got them below dealer cost…
…Only reason I grabbed them, the price was to good to say no. I think I got them below dealer cost…Where are you seeing them discounted heavily? Swaro almost never discounts their stuff
I’d rather not say. I’ll just add that I called several well known vendors and had no issues getting a discount.
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I've been impressed with the 10x42 Pros. Inside of 1200 (furthest I've been able to range and shoot with the data from them). They have hit everything that a Terrapin X was able to hit and the glass is of course top shelf. It would be nice if they had a similar lense cap to the swaros though. I ran the swaros, 32s pro, and the sig 10k back to back, and the 42 pros came out on top. While the display and laser is much better on the sigs. It's hard to deal with the glass after looking through the Leica and Swaros.
Intriguing lineup you had there, which Swaro's do/did you have, EL or NL? When you say 42 Pro came out on top, even over the 32 pro are you saying in overall optical performance or LRF performance or both?
Swaro EL range. Glass between the two was pretty much the same to my eyes with just a slight color difference. I only had about 15 minutes of testing between them though, so take it with a grain of salt. Range finding from a tripod and both the Leica and Sig hit smaller targets 100% (only had out to around 750 when testing). Swaro got ended up giving the distance of the hill behind a few times, but that could be due to me not knowing where I needed to place the target inside/around the circle. I tried a few different areas with varying results. Both Sig and the Leica 42 pros seemed to be very forgiving and mostly center of the aiming setup. I assume that could change/shift from one bino to another though.
Was it the new EL Range TA or the older EL Range? I know Swaro upgraded the glass in the TA so just want to make sure I know which apples for the comparison
So the 42 Pro's did well overall, that's good to hear. The 32 Pro's really had my interest for a while until reviews started coming in stating they struggle with light gathering (which a lot of LRF binos do due to design) and were noticeably darker than regular x32 binos. Unless something really amazes me in the LRF bino department I think I'm sticking with LRF monoculars and regular binos, a good set of glass will always perform and hold value and LRF monocular easy(er) to swap out every few years, but swapping out LRF binos is a bigger pill to swallow as they seem to lose value quickly once the latest and greatest comes out. That said the draw of the convenience of having both units in one is definitely tempting, but until I'm really impressed by some new unit I'm not sure I will go that route anytime soon. So what would "impress" me (just in case someone asks): it would be the display of the Sig 10k (or rather just show me the full solution: elev and wind on one screen that will stay up until I turn it off) with the glass (quality) of the big 3, but doesn't have to be German, I would even be happy with the latest Japanese glass like the Vortex UHD quality (with neutral to slightly warm color cast but definitely NOT blue). I just ordered the new Razor 4000 GB so will be curious if I like it enough to replace my Leica 2800.com's...Was it the new EL Range TA or the older EL Range? I know Swaro upgraded the glass in the TA so just want to make sure I know which apples for the comparison
It was the latest Swaros. I haven't had to pull out my kestrel one time for the last few trips to the range which has been nice. I did true the binos to the data in my kestrel when I got them though just to make sure the data tracked as expected. I needed a good LRF and some new binos, so these fit the bill pretty well. I'd happily pay a lot of money if Swaro made some 15x NL Pures with a laser that's sig quality. I know that's a lot to ask for and probably a small market. I do get annoyed with the little Bluetooth icon that flashes in the lower right though. I wish I could just make that thing go away
I've read on other forums that SIG doesn't intend to repair electronics in their scopes IE illuminated reticles red dots Bluetooth scope leveler and electronics in their rangefinder binoculars outside of their limited 5 year electronics warranty from DATE OF MANUFACTURE AND NOT DATE OF ACTUAL PURCHASE making them disposable optics. When you buy them on clearance or closeout they might not have any warranty left. Any truth to this?
Also does Zeiss repair electronics in their riflescopes (illuminated reticles) and rangefinders outside of their 2 or 3 year warranty?
Also does Zeiss repair electronics in their riflescopes (illuminated reticles) and rangefinders outside of their 2 or 3 year warranty?
Also curious about the Zeiss.
The Leica’s seem better than the Swaro’s except I’ve yet to get the RF target to be parallax free. (No problem with getting clean views of the data on the Zeiss or Swaro…could still be me but?)
So I've had the 10x42 Geovid Pro's for about 48 hours after having owned/used the 10x42 EL Range TA's for about 2 years.
Some initial thoughts and findings:
I like the pro's significantly better than the 3200.coms. Maybe it's placebo, but I feel like the buttons are easier to find, I like the glass better, and they seem more comfortable to hold. The Pro app is light years better than the .com app. Not even in the same ballpark. Being able to cancel out of the information ticker for a re-range is a huge improvement that needed to happen; it makes the unit a lot more friendly to use.
Glass in the pro's clarity-wise is basically identical to my swaros from using them side by side. The swaros present the image flatter all the way to the edges and have a more neutral color palette. The pro's have more generous depth of field which keeps your eyes focused on the center of the image; it's kind of hard to explain. This also results in a "lazier" focus on the pro's vice the swaro's which is going to take some getting used to. I'd equate it to using parallax on a Schmidt vs. a ZCO.
The laser on the pro's is the shit. Significantly better than the swaro laser at 1k+. Anything I point it at inside 1500 is basically guaranteed to return. My unit seems to have an aiming point at the 3 o'clock position of the reticle right at the break in the circle. I've been able to range natural terrain (meaning rocks/cliffs/trees) offhand to 3100, and tripod-mounted to about 3575. The wheels seem to fall off at the 3600 mark. I've ranged cattle to just under a mile, about 1670. I wouldn't necessarily call that the max for live animals, I just ran out of distant cows to lase. Like someone said above, the laser seems identical to a Terrapin X. I know leica and vectronix have been in bed together for some time, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was exactly the same between the two units.
I had to pay 150 bucks for AB Elite in the pro's which I am salty about, but without actually shooting with them, all my trued dope off my kestrel is lining up within a tenth of what's being displayed off the binos out to the farthest I tested with the Kestrel which was just shy of a mile.
Bluetooth has worked great thus far. As long as the last paired device is still on, the binos will reconnect to it, meaning even if the binos time out while you're searching for targets you don't have to worry about having to re-pair a kestrel. While paired, you can obviously use the app on your phone which does give a very comprehensive display of your last range, or fill range cards in conjunction with your Kestrel, which plugs in elevation, your preset wind value, and azimuth/direction.
Swaro still has Leica beat on extra hardware and accessories. The carry bag that comes with the pro's is like someone stuffed a gym sock inside a breadbox and slapped a Leica logo on it. Not awesome. The strap attachment method is traditional buckle/loop and not at all snazzy or super-cool like the swaro one. I am also really really missing my swaro forehead rest. Also, no Leica branded soap and brush
More to follow as I get more miles on the pro's, but I really dig them so far. Hopefully those aren't famous last words.
Some initial thoughts and findings:
I like the pro's significantly better than the 3200.coms. Maybe it's placebo, but I feel like the buttons are easier to find, I like the glass better, and they seem more comfortable to hold. The Pro app is light years better than the .com app. Not even in the same ballpark. Being able to cancel out of the information ticker for a re-range is a huge improvement that needed to happen; it makes the unit a lot more friendly to use.
Glass in the pro's clarity-wise is basically identical to my swaros from using them side by side. The swaros present the image flatter all the way to the edges and have a more neutral color palette. The pro's have more generous depth of field which keeps your eyes focused on the center of the image; it's kind of hard to explain. This also results in a "lazier" focus on the pro's vice the swaro's which is going to take some getting used to. I'd equate it to using parallax on a Schmidt vs. a ZCO.
The laser on the pro's is the shit. Significantly better than the swaro laser at 1k+. Anything I point it at inside 1500 is basically guaranteed to return. My unit seems to have an aiming point at the 3 o'clock position of the reticle right at the break in the circle. I've been able to range natural terrain (meaning rocks/cliffs/trees) offhand to 3100, and tripod-mounted to about 3575. The wheels seem to fall off at the 3600 mark. I've ranged cattle to just under a mile, about 1670. I wouldn't necessarily call that the max for live animals, I just ran out of distant cows to lase. Like someone said above, the laser seems identical to a Terrapin X. I know leica and vectronix have been in bed together for some time, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was exactly the same between the two units.
I had to pay 150 bucks for AB Elite in the pro's which I am salty about, but without actually shooting with them, all my trued dope off my kestrel is lining up within a tenth of what's being displayed off the binos out to the farthest I tested with the Kestrel which was just shy of a mile.
Bluetooth has worked great thus far. As long as the last paired device is still on, the binos will reconnect to it, meaning even if the binos time out while you're searching for targets you don't have to worry about having to re-pair a kestrel. While paired, you can obviously use the app on your phone which does give a very comprehensive display of your last range, or fill range cards in conjunction with your Kestrel, which plugs in elevation, your preset wind value, and azimuth/direction.
Swaro still has Leica beat on extra hardware and accessories. The carry bag that comes with the pro's is like someone stuffed a gym sock inside a breadbox and slapped a Leica logo on it. Not awesome. The strap attachment method is traditional buckle/loop and not at all snazzy or super-cool like the swaro one. I am also really really missing my swaro forehead rest. Also, no Leica branded soap and brush
More to follow as I get more miles on the pro's, but I really dig them so far. Hopefully those aren't famous last words.
Pretty much goes along with my experience, have run both those binos myself. Do the 10x42 PRO's seem "faster" than the 3200's as far as laser and dope return to you? They kind of do to me. I prefer the 10x42 PRO's over the 10x32's in every way for sure.So I've had the 10x42 Geovid Pro's for about 48 hours after having owned/used the 10x42 EL Range TA's for about 2 years.
Some initial thoughts and findings:
I like the pro's significantly better than the 3200.coms. Maybe it's placebo, but I feel like the buttons are easier to find, I like the glass better, and they seem more comfortable to hold. The Pro app is light years better than the .com app. Not even in the same ballpark. Being able to cancel out of the information ticker for a re-range is a huge improvement that needed to happen; it makes the unit a lot more friendly to use.
Glass in the pro's clarity-wise is basically identical to my swaros from using them side by side. The swaros present the image flatter all the way to the edges and have a more neutral color palette. The pro's have more generous depth of field which keeps your eyes focused on the center of the image; it's kind of hard to explain. This also results in a "lazier" focus on the pro's vice the swaro's which is going to take some getting used to. I'd equate it to using parallax on a Schmidt vs. a ZCO.
The laser on the pro's is the shit. Significantly better than the swaro laser at 1k+. Anything I point it at inside 1500 is basically guaranteed to return. My unit seems to have an aiming point at the 3 o'clock position of the reticle right at the break in the circle. I've been able to range natural terrain (meaning rocks/cliffs/trees) offhand to 3100, and tripod-mounted to about 3575. The wheels seem to fall off at the 3600 mark. I've ranged cattle to just under a mile, about 1670. I wouldn't necessarily call that the max for live animals, I just ran out of distant cows to lase. Like someone said above, the laser seems identical to a Terrapin X. I know leica and vectronix have been in bed together for some time, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was exactly the same between the two units.
I had to pay 150 bucks for AB Elite in the pro's which I am salty about, but without actually shooting with them, all my trued dope off my kestrel is lining up within a tenth of what's being displayed off the binos out to the farthest I tested with the Kestrel which was just shy of a mile.
Bluetooth has worked great thus far. As long as the last paired device is still on, the binos will reconnect to it, meaning even if the binos time out while you're searching for targets you don't have to worry about having to re-pair a kestrel. While paired, you can obviously use the app on your phone which does give a very comprehensive display of your last range, or fill range cards in conjunction with your Kestrel, which plugs in elevation, your preset wind value, and azimuth/direction.
Swaro still has Leica beat on extra hardware and accessories. The carry bag that comes with the pro's is like someone stuffed a gym sock inside a breadbox and slapped a Leica logo on it. Not awesome. The strap attachment method is traditional buckle/loop and not at all snazzy or super-cool like the swaro one. I am also really really missing my swaro forehead rest. Also, no Leica branded soap and brush
More to follow as I get more miles on the pro's, but I really dig them so far. Hopefully those aren't famous last words.
As for Swaro TA vs Leica PRO...still trying to decide on that. The Leica's laser is superior by far, no doubt. Swaro has a better field of view, glass is almost a preference thing, elevation and yardage at the same time with the Swaro is kind of nice but actually not as big of a deal as I used to think.
Oh yeah 100% I think the pro's are faster than the .coms. Both in actually getting readbacks from the laser and being able to re-range stuff. That was actually the reason I went with the swaro's over leica a couple years ago, the speed of the laser and the ability to spam-lase a target as fast as you could push the button. That was also the reason I was kinda dismissive of the pro's when they first came out until I actually tried a pair. Very significant upgrade in useability from .com to pro imo.
I still prefer the swaro's for just glassing though; the tighter focus band helps with picking out mirage bands and subtle wind switches in my experience. The flattened image also allows me to literally track my eye around the entire image like I'm looking at a painting on the wall with no strain.
The speed of the laser in the Swaros is awesome, but the precision isn't quite there on smaller stuff past 600-700 in my experience which isn't super awesome. That's sort of the curse of having an electro-optic on a 3-5 year dev cycle (especially when you aren't the front runner electronically), is by like year 3 your product is approaching dinosaur age. I'm really hoping swaro puts more chips in laser performance and ballistic support on the next go around.
Do the Leica pro give you tenths of a yard at closer distances? I have the HDB that I'm thinking about upgrading. Can't seem to get away from the Leica glass. I will be using them for archery a bunch, I wish there was a way to put arrow weight and speed in to get accurate drop numbers from AB. I have to go to another software to get those numbers currently.
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