The Cartridge Conundrum

[Lowlight]

New Year approaching, new shooters asking question about "getting into PRS"

So I see these questions all the time, and in the beginning they are always gear questions, what to buy. This time however it was a cartridge questions, which caliber, cartridge etc to start out with ?

The answers are crazy and I feel most people have fallen into a confirmation bias trap. If everything has been a variation of monkey see, monkey do, and the masses just repeating the same thing over and over again, how do you actually answer this questions. Let me explain deeper... with some examples of what I mean.

Everyone reads, 6mm, so you want some form of 6mm. And the Mainstream will say, 6 Dasher, 6BR* and so on, but in this case the question was about 6mm ARC and the answer was a resounding NO... the mainstream shoots, 6Dasher, 6GT, 6BR, 6XC, nobody has been successful with the ARC so don't do it.... Really, a 6mm pushing the same bullet is a no go ...

Take a 243 loaded with a 109, a 6XC loaded with a 109, a 6CM loaded with a 109, who win.... everything else is the same.

The small frame AR cartridges are designed to work in a short barreled rifle. So they are working to push efficiency, it would make sense that a bolt gun being the most efficient platform that it would work better... the Valkyrie while dead, is a good example, at 2750fps it's shit, at 3025fps it's awesome, now compare that number to a 22GT and a 22CM, if I can easily move the Valkyrie from 2750 to 2950 without extra effort, I can save a bunch of time and energy and resources.

Consider the brass chasers, why do they chase the brass, hard to find, hard to work it, don't want to lose one. Think about that, they are coveting brass... when brass the expendable part of the equation has that much value you missed the objective.

The Light is Right argument was correct, we have show with the 100gr 6.5CM it's results can pass the 156gr, which is a better bullet on paper, this equation can be made cheaper and easier especially with hand loading

What happens if you take the 100gr 6.5CM and instead of it going 3200fps like it currently does, you downloaded it to 2950, 3000fps, vs a 1, O Something in a 6mm. Samething, if the 105 is going 2850, is that really worse than the 109 going 2850 ? If so, what happens if the 105 goes to 2875 ?

None of the current cartridges started out smooth, they all went through trial and errors, mainly speed, but we have gone weight too, but speed is our biggest manipulator, so that is easy.

I think moving forward a new shooter with a 6ARC can blend in nicely

 

[Lowlight]

Here is some reference material too

The Wheel of Time

In long-range shooting, Time of Flight (TOF)—the time it takes for a bullet to reach the target—is a critical factor.

www.snipershide.com

Here is the Hourglass Effect that demonstrates one cartridge out performing another despite the numbers on paper

https://www.snipershide.com/precision-rifle/for-long-range-precision-shooting-wind-resistance-is-a-critical-factor/

 

[Long Range 338]

This will never work Frank, it's not PRS approved! Just kidding. Your observations are great and very common sense. I really like the faster bullets from a wind perspective as well.

So much dogma and tribalism going on that free thinking often isn't appreciated.

 

[Tritiumdials]

So are you going to force your sponsored PRS shooters to use 6ARC?

 

[Lowlight]

Of course not, I do t force people to do anything

I’m building a 6arc bolt gun I’m not requiring it of anyone, that’s silly, be like saying they gotta shoot a Valkyrie cuz I do most days.

Nah, just thinking it’s a good entry level cartridge

 

[Lowlight]

There are certain truisms like a 6mm going 2850, so if you can get there cheaper and easier why not?

I’m just saying I would not be shooting down people looking to pair an AR15 in 6arc to a bolt gun in 6 arc as there might be a lot of possibilities in that combination for someone looking to enter the precision rifle sports

If competition is the pinnacle getting there faster and cheaper should be the goal

 

[Jmkjr87]

If somebody already shoots 6 arc in a ar15 then I think it would he logical to build a bolt gun shooting the same because they know the cartridge already and are set up for it. But if they are starting from scratch I say build the master race of of 6mm, 6x47lapua and be done with it

 

[Lowlight]

And don’t get me wrong, I think the 6GT is awesome, super smart cartridge for the game. As is the production rifle.

We have a couple of good switch caliber actions out there, or even lower cost ones with swappable bolt heads.

A bighorn origin won’t break the bank, factory ammo on the shelf to start, you load for a magic number as you progress and it’s cheap.

I plan to head this way mainly because of the reports coming back using the AR15 platform. I’ve had a few in class that did extremely well, and others talk about it.

Compound this with the marketing, 22arc is everywhere, if you close your eyes and recite the numbers it’s a Valkyrie. So why not pair the two, put it in a bolt gun

They keep pushing the small frame calibers, we know they work better in a bolt gun and are 90% pre tuned to work within the parameters to compete with.

Heck I bet getting an AR15 / small frame cartridge topped with a .25 cal bullet has instant merit with the right bullet. Does it need creedmoor speed or is ARC speed just about right ?

22GT
6GT
25GT

Load could be pretty good with a nice family to work with, but it’s about the brass, don’t want to sweat brass, so things need to be mainstreamed

 

[ma smith]

The argument is .444 boltface for a starter rifle is its a bad investment. You have to spend $400 on an extra bolt (and $150 on new mags, etc) that has very little other uses. I don't think this is a ballistics related argument at all.

If you stick with a 308 boltface, and you can re-purpose the rifle for hunting or resale for lego gun parts, into "big boy" prs calibers, where most of the action/liquidity is on the secondary market.

And if you assume you are starting with 308 boltface out of such practicality, the 6BR makes TONS of sense in terms of "easy button" load dev, low SD/vertical dispersal, minimal recoil, etc.

And once you accept the case for 6BR, the case for 6-DASHER is its more of a 1-and-done version of 6BR since you get an extra 100-200yds longer before you hit 2.0mills of wind drift in a 10mph condition.

[ ETA - All that is also like 95% for 6GT as well. GT just lose a bit of case efficiency/operating cost for better access to factory ammo.]

 

[db2000]

I’d be interested to see the most temp stable, fast and accurate combos folks have found for 6 ARC. Heavies preferably.

 

[Kickin45]

I agree with Frank. To a degree. I am completely and totally fascinated by the small bore competition calibers.
I really wanted a 224 Valkyrie, but paused on it for a bit. And I’m glad I did.
Then really wanted 223 trainer and went with 223AI. Fantastic choice. I love that round. Lost some brass. Who cares.
Then decided to build a long range rifle and was going to stick with 22cal and was leaning toward 22GT. Ultimately I went with 6GT instead because it’s so well established at this point. And that’s the point.


ARC is still pretty new. Will it dinosaur like the Valk? I doubt it.
But if your talking ez button and 22cal, I’d build another 223AI over a 22ARC at this point.
Brass is literally everywhere. I can push (bolt gun) a 69smk to 3300fps and a 77 to 3kfps
Pretty sure I can push an 88 to 2850
I’ve never shot 223AI in a gas gun. But I’d think you could push a 75 to 2850 out of a 20” maybe an 18”. Not sure, never tried it. AR mags would be the deciding factor. 69grn maybe at 2900-2930?
And if just have to go 6mm in a gas gun, 6mm/223 is pretty good too. And I think you could even Ackleyize it to a degree.
If ARC is still here in 3yrs, I’ll try one for sure.
But there are plenty of other established, well established calibers that do that already.

 

[beetroot]

The advantage to the BR based cartridges are:
-Dead easy to find an accurate load
-Burn 10gr+ less powder
- Cheaper bullets

So I'm not really sure that a 6.5x shooting 100gr bullets really offers.
Now you can get Dasher and BRA factory brass crying over lost fireformes brass is also reduced, and if you are shooting good brass In 6.5CM/x47L you'll still be trying to find ever last piece.

However, there must be a lot of monkey see, monkey do going on as you can go further down the cheaper/less recoil route with 22br and 223ai, but these haven't really caught on.

223ai can basically replicate 6br performance with even less powder, cheaper bullets and less recoil. Fireformed brass is an issue but you don't need a 223 trainer anymore so can either feed it 223 factory ammo (then you have brass) or do training loads as your initial fireforming loads so brass isn't as much an issue.

 

[DairyDictator]

I don't see a major issue with 6ARC in a bolt gun other than the oddball case head size. The BR based cases (lumping GT in with this for sake of ease) are all right there as far as efficiency goes so you're splitting hairs at this point. You can run BR based cases away from the pressure limit or run 6ARC a little hot for the same result. Personally I'd rather stay away from pressure. I don't see brass as an issue anymore since Alpha and Lapua make pretty much anything you want now.

The goal for me is to consistently get as much energy downrange as I can with the least amount of recoil. We all know it's a balancing act. The light bullets are great for recoil reduction, but it comes at a cost of less energy to kick up splash and rock plates. Lower BC exacerbates that issue the further out you go. The higher the BC, the less energy gets dumped into the environment during flight, so I get to keep more of the energy I paid for with recoil in theory anyway. If it's too much recoil, I can back off on the speed. Lower recoil and more reaction time, but I still get the benefits from the BC bump. Looks good on paper, but does it really make a difference? Am I not putting enough weight on the recoil reduction factor? Maybe, maybe not. Obviously there's a limit in either direction as not too many guys run 22cal stuff and ultra heavy 6.5 creed and 7mm stuff seem rare.

 

[Rommie]

Add the 6 ARC to the MIL class and see what happens.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Mil class has no cartridge restrictions.

Maybe you are thinking of TAC.

This post is a classic example of people sharing their options who don't even know the basic rules of the game they want to change.

There are good reasons why 6arc is not used in bolt guns and really not even used in gas gun divisions where you would think it would excel.

The same reason the valk is not popular. BR cases are easy tune, efficient and exceptionally accurate. They can push the bullet class fast enough to take advantage of BC while not getting into pressure issues and brass lasts forever. Barrel life is very good. Spending hundreds of valuable rounds on a barrel to develop a load that shoots means less time to actually use it before it burns out. That means more money and more time wasted. 25 cal is the current sweet spot it seems being able to push a high bc bullets in the 2700+ range. Less recoil than a 153/156, similar bc, and can be pushed faster without pressure issues. 6.5 creed is also very viable and if your shooting factory ammo, hard to beat a 6 or 6.5 creed for value. There is no conundrum, people are just gravitating towards things that work better for the game.

 

[rlsmith1]

All this 25 cal talk makes me happy.

Just bought a 25 CM barrel and would love to see a 90 ELD VT or A TIP for shooting at night.

I did not sell my 6 CM barrel though!

 

[Shoots700’s]

Frank makes sense however the marketing people are going nuts trying to sell the latest product that will basically get to the target all by itself

 

[Rommie]

Mil class has no cartridge restrictions.

Maybe you are thinking of TAC.

Right. TAC

Just trying to participate in forums while gaining basic knowledge. When I know it all, I'll find a new hobby.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Generally speaking, a 6arc bolt gun fits the semi-specific niche of someone wanting to run 6br speeds but also shoot factory ammo that isn’t ridiculously priced. Factory ammo for 6br like Lapua ammo is pretty expensive. And 6gt Hornady ammo is a bit more expensive that 6arc Hornady.

So, you’ll get a long lasting barrel with mostly affordable ammo. And it’s not hard to find components if you decide to graduate to loading your own ammo.

If you want factory ammo and more speed, there’s 6gt and 6cm.


If you already make your own ammo, then meh, pick one for whatever reason you deem appropriate. Brass, bullet, powder availability or preference, etc, etc.

 

[DairyDictator]

There are good reasons why 6arc is not used in bolt guns and really not even used in gas gun divisions where you would think it would excel.

The simple reason it's not used in gas gun divisions is that they run so damn slow out of 20" and shorter barrels, and you can't really step on the cartridge because the bolts are inherently weaker due to size restrictions.

6 ARC isn't really hard to tune and factory ammo shoots just fine, but why bother when it's so close to what's proven to work for this sport?

 

[Lowlight]

The bolt head is an issue but I see that as swappable the money, ok, it’s buy once for a bolt. I use spare bolts and find it easier

I guess the brass sources are easier but it’s still a chase, I didn’t like the BR feeding and think it get worse faster banging mags.

Easy loads, sure you can repeat a load easy enough the Valkyrie was 26grs not sure how much less you need ?

I’m seeing a lot of guy in other circles wanting to pair the bolt and gas guns as a team

I get the argument, I think it’s a bit of a trade off regarding time and money, in the long run I see it being cheaper but how knows

If people are good with the process and it’s been cleaned up, then wash rinse repeat I suppose.

I see the GT as fixing the early problems, brass seems to ebb and flow and prep was always a bigger topic, but enough doing the same answered that part of the equation. I gave my BR set up to PNW shooter before jumping in, went a different direction.

But it’s odd the 6mm X question when you can get to the same end results multiple ways.

 

[Lowlight]

The crazy part, I haven’t recent magazines all pushing the 22 arc now

The 22 arc numbers are Valkyrie achievable

So their marketing is pushing the ARC for both now instead of just the gas gun

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

In a bolt gun you can't get the velocity for 105-115 class bullets high enough without stepping on it as well. You already have shitty brass options and they are going to get thrashed if you try. Then you also get into reliability issues as the weather goes to shit and you get moisture in the action. You never want to be on the higher end of pressure in a comp gun for a number of reasons. Ive seen some of the biggest names in the sport sent home with their tail between their legs because the weather turned to shit and their ammo was way to hot, resulting in stuck bolts.

With a BR type case you can stay around 2800 and not even stress it. You can push it faster and not stress it. Much better brass options. The 6 arc is a great little round and probably the best long range/all around cartridge in a small frame AR. But it's a complete neutered bitch out of a bolt gun and there is no reason to even consider it when there are so many better options.

 

[Lowlight]

How is it neutered in a bolt gun the few examples I have see have solid numbers ?

The gas gun speeds are where things usually slow down

 

[Lowlight]

As much as you see 6cm everywhere on the self I’m surprised nobody downloads that speed wise to see if it trends right

Some of it is pretty hot out of the box.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Getting above 2750 without pushing it hard is going to be the issue. Add in the crappy brass and there is no reason in a bolt gun. You can run a BR class case and easily get 100+ fps without getting close to pressure to take advantage of the 105-115s. Or you can run a GT which gives you more powder flexibility like running H4350 instead of varget/n140.

It's like running a Grendel in a bolt gun. Just dumb when you can run a creed and take advantage of high bc for caliber bullets and get to a velocity that doesn't have a massive bc penality. I have heard you made the same arguments about 338lLM and 300gr bullets. Just can't push them fast enough to beat out the BC and speed of 250s.

The arc like the Grendel is a compromised cartridge designed around a small frame AR. Outside of that realm it's a poor option.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

As much as you see 6cm everywhere on the self I’m surprised nobody downloads that speed wise to see if it trends right

Some of it is pretty hot out of the box.

They have tried. It's finicky when you download it and hard to find a load that shoots well. Most of the people who know still running a 6 creed are above 3k. Otherwise go to a more efficient 28-2950 cartridge. I think case fill % plays a bigger role in how forgiving a cartridge shoots than most people think. My GT SD/ES trends down as I load it hotter. One of the reasons I am going from 2850 back to 2925+ this season. It just shoots so much better. And it's still a mild pressure load so no issues in bad weather and heat.

I would like to see more 6 br, 6 dasher and 6 gt factory ammo. Problem is they all kinda canableize each other and make it hard for a company to make any of them. If we(shooters) rallied behind and adopted one it would be much easier for manufactures to get behind it.

 

[Lowlight]

Ok I get the Grendel argument, thinking the arc fixed their mistakes with lighter bullets the Grendel was always loaded too heavy

I did think the same thing with the Valkyrie at 2750 it sucks, getting to 3000fps was way easier than advertised which changed the game for me, bought the Valk into 22cm speeds

 

[Lowlight]

I like the 6GT it’s close enough to 6.5x47 and you’d think we’d see a standardized 6x47 vs x46 there is room compete there

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

That would be a great thing for the community Frank. It's honestly too confusing for most newer shooters with all these options and people from all angles recommending different stuff.

I would love to see a 25x47 standardized. I think it would be one hell of a match and hunting cartridge.

 

[Lowlight]

I see them trending towards cartridge families like the PRC and how they embraced that model.

I was thinking it could be similar with the ARC stuff pairing the small frame to the bolt gun, which looks like a side sell with the 22ARC

The GT clearly has more merit so 22, 25, 6 … has a nice ring,

Nobody is trying to say, it has to be done a certain way, just it’s confusing with all the 6mm variants that people go into vapor lock and there is no manufacturer help, you have to build it

 

[DairyDictator]

I think the GT is the most recent attempt at having a standardized cartridge in the 6mm sweet spot zone, and generally what I recommend for newer guys, but Hornady loaded their ammo too damn hot.

I don't think we'll see other calibers in the GT family because from a manufacturer perspective, there's no market. 22 Creed is a modern 22-250 replacement that could run heavies and feed from 10 or 12 round magazines. Why would Joe Blow grab a 22GT when 22 creed does what GT does and more? The case is slightly too small for a 25 cal bullet in my opinion. I think the x47 or creed is the way to go for 25.

Personally I hate how they named the PRC line. 6.5 PRC, 7 PRC, and 300 PRC are completely different cases that share a bolt face. They don't even necessarily share the same action. The 7 PRC is especially annoying since guys were shoving 7mm bullets in a 6.5 case before its release trying to get close to 7 WSSM performance but being able to find good brass.

 

[Lowlight]

There seems to be a bit more buzz with Shot this year, I actually have to go a day early for an event on Sunday

My thoughts when the question comes up this year, where are we going, where to go, I want to explore cartridges

I think k we have room for a 25 of some flavor and maybe if they hear it, the ball will roll again

They always ask what’s next and most mean, the gun, the scope etc. it’s time to talk cartridges

I agree the PRC family is weirdly unrelated but I see what they are doing. They want to create name recognition and branding to the family which is smart

When you look at speed, recoil, accuracy the .22 has the best future but the 6 is not going anywhere and the 6.5 is here to stay so why not tie them together for people

 

[DairyDictator]

Good idea from a marketing perspective. I think the cases themselves will have to be different, like the PRC, but it's clear they're not afraid to do that.

 

[stanley_white]

Personally I hate how they named the PRC line.

People’s Republic of China.

Thanks for that, Hornady.

-Stan

 

[DairyDictator]

People’s Republic of China.

Thanks for that, Hornady.

-Stan

Great, now I can't unsee that. Thanks ass hat lol

 

[stanley_white]

Great, now I can't unsee that. Thanks ass hat lol

Anytime.

Just think 6.5 CHICOM and everything will be easier.

Definition of CHICOM

a communist Chinese… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

-Stan

 

[superde]

Of course not, I do t force people to do anything

I’m building a 6arc bolt gun I’m not requiring it of anyone, that’s silly, be like saying they gotta shoot a Valkyrie cuz I do most days.

Nah, just thinking it’s a good entry level cartridge

Uncle Wade was shooting factory 6ARC ammunition 3 years ago at Revellie Peak Ranch with us. Anything past 700 yards was luck of the draw, but he was trying to get the brass to load for future matches.

 

[Taylorbok]

I think k we have room for a 25 of some flavor and maybe if they hear it, the ball will roll again

Hornady announced 25CM brass the other day.

 

[Long Range 338]

This post is a classic example of people sharing their options who don't even know the basic rules of the game they want to change.

There are good reasons why 6arc is not used in bolt guns and really not even used in gas gun divisions where you would think it would excel.

The same reason the valk is not popular. BR cases are easy tune, efficient and exceptionally accurate. They can push the bullet class fast enough to take advantage of BC while not getting into pressure issues and brass lasts forever. Barrel life is very good. Spending hundreds of valuable rounds on a barrel to develop a load that shoots means less time to actually use it before it burns out. That means more money and more time wasted. 25 cal is the current sweet spot it seems being able to push a high bc bullets in the 2700+ range. Less recoil than a 153/156, similar bc, and can be pushed faster without pressure issues. 6.5 creed is also very viable and if your shooting factory ammo, hard to beat a 6 or 6.5 creed for value. There is no conundrum, people are just gravitating towards things that work better for the game.

And here you prove my point exceptionally (about free thinking not being appreciated). I don’t mean to be disrespectful or harsh, just consider the main points and the 6 ARC can make great sense.

-New Shooter looking to invest in a capable rifle and cartridge shooting factory ammo.
-Low recoil, high bc options are good and inexpensive.
-Most new shooters are going to test the waters, get skulldragged and can repurpose or sell with ease in other markets. Let’s be honest, the PRS is not retaining the mass numbers that are dipping their toes. This option at least makes the cost and difficulty of entrance easier. Yes the 6CM also works well but has its issues as noted by others.

 

[Lowlight]

The thing I learned with the Valkyrie is they produced everything for the gas gun so the numbers never went past loading for that platform.

It was super easy to reach 3000fps with a good bullet and now the 80.5gr factory load at 2900 works well. So in my thinking they did the same thing to the 6arc, slowed it down.

If that was the case, as noted above, for a new shooter an easily replicated load can go a long way.

I honestly expect it be 2750, but how hard would it be to reach 2850 ? So like noted it’s an opening try for new people.

A bighorn origin build doesn’t break the bank

 

[Lowlight]

Uncle Wade was shooting factory 6ARC ammunition 3 years ago at Revellie Peak Ranch with us. Anything past 700 yards was luck of the draw, but he was trying to get the brass to load for future matches.

This is what happened with the Valkyrie using the 90s at 2750, no report. The ROs couldn’t see anything and forget trying to find a miss.

Once the load jumped to 3000fps it changed everything. So with any 6arc platform it’s about the end goal of 2800fps, I know some gas gun numbers are 2650 or less, but I have not seen the bolt gun examples being sub 2700 ?

 

[W54/XM-388]

The thing I learned with the Valkyrie is they produced everything for the gas gun so the numbers never went past loading for that platform.

So in my thinking they did the same thing to the 6arc, slowed it down.

Probably exactly correct.
Most likely they based all the factory loads around what a theoretical cheapest possible junk grade AR could handle.
Perhaps one day they will have 2 different levels kind of like 30-06 where you have factory loads specifically for the M1 and then other factory loads for modern bolt action or similar rifles.

I have 2 AR platform rifles in 6ARC, one that's kind of cheap grade, one that's a much nicer build.
I'm kind of interested in the GEISSELE GFR 20" Stratomatch, based on the specs of that rifle, I'm thinking it could probably handle the bolt action level rounds fine.

Quick copy / paste from Wikipedia:

"the 11th Edition Hornady Reloading Manual,[6] for example, has two sets of data. The first set of data is loaded to the SAAMI maximum average pressure (MAP) of 52,000 psi, which is stated to be suitable for gas-operated firearms such as the AR-15 platform and its derivatives. The second set of data is loaded to a MAP of 62,000 psi, which is stated to be for use with bolt action guns such as the CZ 527. "

"For example, the data in the Hornady 11th Edition Manual for an 18 in (457 mm)-barrelled AR-15 platform firearm was on average 200–300 ft/s (60–90 m/s) less than the data for the 24 in (610 mm)-barrelled CZ 527 bolt action rifle"

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

This is what happened with the Valkyrie using the 90s at 2750, no report. The ROs couldn’t see anything and forget trying to find a miss.

Once the load jumped to 3000fps it changed everything. So with any 6arc platform it’s about the end goal of 2800fps, I know some gas gun numbers are 2650 or less, but I have not seen the bolt gun examples being sub 2700 ?

I can’t post pics until that bug is fixed. But a 22” GAP-15 runs factory ELD at barely under 2600fps.

A 26-28” should definitely be in the 2700-2750 with factory ammo. Obviously faster if you load.

 

[EbTac]

Tha small group of friends i compete with alot of us shot the 115 dtac in GT or arc. One guy was successful pushing his arc to 2800 with n540 but man is was a hot load definitely was trashing starline brass. One thing we noticed with the arc and 108s is that it lost its ass past 700 for whatever reason idk. The GT with 115s @2800-2830 is damn near same wind as the 25s in GT or x47 or creed. Back to the arc the guys that ran cfe were seeing major temp sensitivity and were constantly chasing there velocity and dope. The 25 is definitely the goldilocks in my opinion but if your looking best bang for your buck GT with 115s is the most ideal setup for a newer shooters. I'm coming up on my 3rd season with 115s and running them 2800 to 2830 and have been really impressed with them in the GT. It's impressive to be within a tenth on wind with the 25s.

Far as speed and newer shooters I don't recommend anything over 2900fps. It's just too fast for alot of people's eyes in my opinion. My first year in PRS I ran the 107s at 2900 and I had hell reading the plate hence why I switched to the 115 and 2800 range. Slowed it down and saw bigger splash at distance and my hit percentage went up significantly. Now I believe once you get a year or 2 under your belt and wanna chase speed by all means see if it works and improves your scores. Idk how much it's true but alot of guys feel that downloading a cartridge it just seems more consistent for a whole match and life of a barrel.

 

[Kadams1563]

Tha small group of friends i compete with alot of us shot the 115 dtac in GT or arc. One guy was successful pushing his arc to 2800 with n540 but man is was a hot load definitely was trashing starline brass. One thing we noticed with the arc and 108s is that it lost its ass past 700 for whatever reason idk. The GT with 115s @2800-2830 is damn near same wind as the 25s in GT or x47 or creed. Back to the arc the guys that ran cfe were seeing major temp sensitivity and were constantly chasing there velocity and dope. The 25 is definitely the goldilocks in my opinion but if your looking best bang for your buck GT with 115s is the most ideal setup for a newer shooters. I'm coming up on my 3rd season with 115s and running them 2800 to 2830 and have been really impressed with them in the GT. It's impressive to be within a tenth on wind with the 25s.

Far as speed and newer shooters I don't recommend anything over 2900fps. It's just too fast for alot of people's eyes in my opinion. My first year in PRS I ran the 107s at 2900 and I had hell reading the plate hence why I switched to the 115 and 2800 range. Slowed it down and saw bigger splash at distance and my hit percentage went up significantly. Now I believe once you get a year or 2 under your belt and wanna chase speed by all means see if it works and improves your scores. Idk how much it's true but alot of guys feel that downloading a cartridge it just seems more consistent for a whole match and life of a barrel.

Have you ran the 109 eld’s at all? I have thought about going to the 115 Dtac and shooting them slower.

 

[Lowlight]

With the ARC in a bolt gun did you increase the OAL for more speed ?

I loaded longer as the bolt gun could handle it and the speeds fell right into line. Now it’s 6.8 to 1k

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

One of the big issues with both is the bolt face and brass. Guys who have custom actions ( the most likely to buy these super niche cartridges) can just do a 22 BR/Dasher /GT / creed and use good brass and their .473 bolt and existing mags. Now all you need is a new barrel instead they would need a new bolt ( which are not always easy to source) have to use subpar brass and find mags that work. For what? To use a less powerful, just as expensive round that doesn't push the bullet as fast as the other existing cartridges. Then add in things like the SAC modular die alot of guys are running and you are a bushing and a mandrel away from a new caliber instead of a whole die set. The industry would be better off standardizing on something like the GT and then necking it up and down. Main reason for the GT is powder flexibility and flawless feeding from unmodified AICS pattern mags. But that will never happen because like ice cream...they make more money by selling more flavors. Or Hornady will just steal another idea and call it their own.

 

[Jmkjr87]

Or Hornady will just steal another idea and call it their own.
[/QUOTE]

Now that is what hornady is really good at. Take a Thompson 30 cal case and neck it down to 6.5, perform some marketing claiming it is a wonder cartridge and people eat it up. I shoot x47 based cartridges because of this

 

[EbTac]

Have you ran the 109 eld’s at all? I have thought about going to the 115 Dtac and shooting them slower.

I personally have not but a few friends have. It's a great bullet. Only downside was that they typically sold out very fast when George had them in stock. But I believe i heard hornady will be putting the 109 on shelves to it's dealers. I could be wrong on that. I may be thinking of their 109 factory ammo.