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The choice is SIG...
- Thread starter plong
- Start date
I mean if anyone thought the US military would adopt a bullpup as a primary weapon.
Not to mention the interoperability of parts already in inventory. SIG has been greasing a lot of palms lately.
Random people on the internet, most of them never having seen combat, will tell you all about the shortcomings.
And probably.
Yeah that’s all I need is a nine hour video on POU of SAWC of the 6.8 vs the 5.56 from a guy who thinks SFP leupold with fixed duplex reticles are the shit
They’re not?
So all our ARs are obsolete, now!!!!!
... Or does this mean they no longer qualify as weapons of war.... ?
... Or does this mean they no longer qualify as weapons of war.... ?
Yep. The new rifles will allow uncle to sell our old rifles to some 3rd world shit hole and funnel the money into world peace
It's SIG, they'll probably stop making it in three years. 
FIFYIt's SIG, they'll probably have 15 recalls in three years.
If a little recoil bothers them... maybe, just maybe, being part of a killing machine was the wrong career path.
I wonder how it shakes out against modern body armor and penetration of light armor. Wasn’t that part of the reason for the change?
Compared to M855 I wonder how it performs? It sound like its got a little more thump than an M2 AP 30-06 round.
Peer adversaries with modern body armor was a primary driver of the program
Arnt these decisions like most in government, depends on who takes the decision makers out to the best dinners, maybe who pays for some “education” for them.
Was going to say something to the effect about how much they paid out on the back end.
With the big Indian contract it should be interesting to see them source parts when needed.
Oh you mean like the guy that posted here last winter talking about his rack grade rifle was like the seventh wonder of the world
how much difference is there between M4 and the new rifles? size, weight, capacity, etc.. seems like a big jump from small to large frame in addition to a new caliber. why didnt they ever make that jump with 308 rifles? I imagine the reasons why they didnt would be the same.
Well one of the biggest issues is weight. Standardish m4 load out is 7 mags. Could you imagine lugging around 7 mags of 7.62 with 70 less rounds and still weighing more? The new ones are using polymer cased ammo which lowers the weight considerably
They have to go with the smaller DPMS gen2 size.
That might save maybe a pound ?
SIG isn't greasing some palms.
SIG is greasing ALL the palms.
It's 8.4 lbs for the Spear and I'd wager the NGW is right in that ballpark.
www.sigsauer.com
That might save maybe a pound ?
SIG isn't greasing some palms.
SIG is greasing ALL the palms.
It's 8.4 lbs for the Spear and I'd wager the NGW is right in that ballpark.
MCX-SPEAR
First Production Run Special Edition Now Available at Select Dealers MSRP: $7999.00
www.sigsauer.com
And now the total abandonment of the civilian market
thats what Im thinking. polymer case in high pressure round? with stainless head isnt saving that much. either way it is heavier than an M4 with less ammo capacity and more recoil. soldiers better learn to shoot and make those shots count. kinda makes everyone a designated marksman. Its basically same a SR25 or SCAR17 only chambered in 277FUBAR.
I'm seriously considering starting another thread on this same topic, because we don't have enough.
20 rnds of polymer .277 is around the same weight as a 30 rnd of 5.56.
The polymer cases save about 30% in weight. As an estimated guess, 7.62x51 cartridge weights around 380 grains. So 30% of that is 266grains x20= 5320
An m855 weighs around 190 grains. 190 x30=5700
So the weight is comparable. Thought yes 70 less round(140 vs 210) But with a cartridge with nearly 3x the amount of energy, much longer effective range and a flatter trajectory.
Look at it in total energy delivered. 277 is around 3000ftlbs, 556 is around 1200 ftlbs. So a full load out of .277 delivers a total of 420,000ftlbs of muzzle energy. Full load out of 5.56 delivers around 252,000ftlbs.
.277 load out puts a shit ton more energy at muzzle and has a much higher bc so carriers that energy further.
Exactly my point. Now you can carry an effective larger caliber load out atvthe same weight as 556
That math only works out if the shooter can hit the target. The 277 Sig Fury will be measurably more difficult to shoot than the 5.56 it tries to replace. Maybe not an issue for the high speed low drag operator, but more of a concern for the regular infantry.
I'm a sad owner of a modern Sig (MCX, already SBRd so I don't feel like trying to sell it) and a current Army soldier, and why can't we collectively rail against modern Sig for being a shit company who releases half-baked guns every 6 months and Big Army for making another stupid move while not allocating real resources for infantry soldiers learning how to actually shoot? We do a qual+live fire ex once a year and yes obviously most soldiers can't shoot worth a F*** with that level of exposure to live fire.
Don't waste your time. No one seems to understand it's a completely different platform size, I gave up trying to explain it to people a while ago.
well at least it's a gun not a hand bag or a purse for the masses to carry you know being that the military is all pc gender involved now you could have them choose a gender neutral clothing with matching pumps cause everyone knows guys love matching clothing and dance routines
lol well it could happen with the way things are going .
lol well it could happen with the way things are going .
Appears someone has never weighed an empty case.
A loaded 308 is about twice the weight of a 223 +/- whatever.
Somehow miraculously making the case different drops the weight substantially ?
WTF?????
Go weigh an empty 308 case and then come back and kiss my ass
You *might* be saving 15 grains per round at most by switching to either a steel based brass case or a steel based polymer case.
Maybe.
In conclusion.
Ya ain't saving shit for weight with a different case because the case weighs fuck all to begin with.
A loaded 308 is about twice the weight of a 223 +/- whatever.
Somehow miraculously making the case different drops the weight substantially ?
WTF?????
Go weigh an empty 308 case and then come back and kiss my ass
You *might* be saving 15 grains per round at most by switching to either a steel based brass case or a steel based polymer case.
Maybe.
In conclusion.
Ya ain't saving shit for weight with a different case because the case weighs fuck all to begin with.
I have a marine friend I grew up with who was in Iraq multiple tours starting in late 2003 telling me that he wished he had something more powerful than 5.56.
Afghanistan... troops were outranged by goat fuckers with mosian’s.
So yeah there are sum.
lol, I can get 50 guys on the phone that would say fk u to that, MORE is always better.
the 77gr fks shit up! we don't need a new caliber
bigger all around, heavier, less ammo into the fray but hey, desk clearks are telling me that I can now kill haj at 600meters because 5.56 is only effective to 300meters. lol
Bet bet you can get 50 dudes on the phone
77grain round ain’t penetrating body armor. That is the purpose of this, no matter how many dude you get in your circle jerk.
I probably shouldn't bother to respond to any of these threads but screw it...
The Sig is about 2 pounds heavier than an M4. It is also basically an AR-10 platform instead of an AR-15 platform so that is pretty reasonable.
What isn't reasonable is switching to polymer instead of brass for a soldier's basic load. A basic load for 7.62 rifles is usually 140‐160 rounds. That amount of brass in .308 is about 2 pounds. Save 30% of that and you save .6 pounds but stick soldiers with experimental crap that never works out right... Just so you can save .6 pounds...
As a former soldier with combat experience and having seen the shitty terminal performance of 5.56 steel core first hand; I would gladly have taken a harder hitting cartridge that required fewer hits to get the job done. You can say that 77 gr is wonderful but only about 2% of the Army has access to that and I wasn't one of them in my early days. Even now, all of SOF doesn't get 77 gr all the time. The conventional military doesn't get it and most don't know it exists so whole lot of good it does them.
The velocities Sig is claiming for a 150gr projo @ 3100 are screaming. I never saw that out of my .308 with 155gr Scenars and a 24" barrel.
It will be interesting to see who this contract and roll-out goes but it will surely be a clusterf*ck.
The Sig is about 2 pounds heavier than an M4. It is also basically an AR-10 platform instead of an AR-15 platform so that is pretty reasonable.
What isn't reasonable is switching to polymer instead of brass for a soldier's basic load. A basic load for 7.62 rifles is usually 140‐160 rounds. That amount of brass in .308 is about 2 pounds. Save 30% of that and you save .6 pounds but stick soldiers with experimental crap that never works out right... Just so you can save .6 pounds...
As a former soldier with combat experience and having seen the shitty terminal performance of 5.56 steel core first hand; I would gladly have taken a harder hitting cartridge that required fewer hits to get the job done. You can say that 77 gr is wonderful but only about 2% of the Army has access to that and I wasn't one of them in my early days. Even now, all of SOF doesn't get 77 gr all the time. The conventional military doesn't get it and most don't know it exists so whole lot of good it does them.
The velocities Sig is claiming for a 150gr projo @ 3100 are screaming. I never saw that out of my .308 with 155gr Scenars and a 24" barrel.
It will be interesting to see who this contract and roll-out goes but it will surely be a clusterf*ck.
Let me see if I've got this right; we went to the M16/AR15 platform because it was lighter, easier to train people to use, and more maneuverable. We went to the 5.56 so that troops could carry more ammo without incurring a weight penalty. This formula was successful for some 30+ years. The M16 was shortened into the M4 so as to be more convenient in vehicle borne ops and just more portable in general. This seemed to work out for 20 years.
BUT, someone decided that a light, portable, easily shootable rifle or carbine wasn't getting it done so, we needed a heavier bullet, and a larger platform. So, instead of doing something simple like necking the 5.56 up to 6MM, thus opening the platform up to heavier bullets with better BCs, or, if absolutely necessary, just adopting the M5 in .260 Rem (which fulfills 90% of the stated requirements), we end up with an entirely new platform that uses a completely new caliber in a complex and, no doubt, ruinously expensive configuration that is heavier, has more felt recoil, and forces the individual soldier to carry less ammunition?
I suggest that the name of the new system should be "The Kickback."
BUT, someone decided that a light, portable, easily shootable rifle or carbine wasn't getting it done so, we needed a heavier bullet, and a larger platform. So, instead of doing something simple like necking the 5.56 up to 6MM, thus opening the platform up to heavier bullets with better BCs, or, if absolutely necessary, just adopting the M5 in .260 Rem (which fulfills 90% of the stated requirements), we end up with an entirely new platform that uses a completely new caliber in a complex and, no doubt, ruinously expensive configuration that is heavier, has more felt recoil, and forces the individual soldier to carry less ammunition?
I suggest that the name of the new system should be "The Kickback."
That might sound good in theory. However, there is a big difference between it being authorized for use (or programmed as you stated) versus it actually being available.
But I made that point pretty clear in my original post so I guess you were saying that just to have something to say. Especially since I also made it clear 77 gr was for SOF.
It is true. Like I said, there is a difference between it being authorized and it being available.
I was the Senior Weapons Sergeant on Special Forces Operational Detachment-Alphas for over 5 years. Part of my job was to order ever bullet, shell, mortar round, and anti-armor weapon my team would use during training and deployments every quarter. I was intimately familiar with the battalion ammo guy and having to work around the limitations in the supply chain.
You are an idiot who like most people on the internet doesn't understand the difference between theory and reality.
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