The End Of Wind Calling? -Trijicon Ventus -

[Vamike9]

So the Trijicon Ventus is causing some noise in the long range scene.

It is said that it can accurately measure wind up to a minimum of 500 meters...

I, like most of you have questions.

• How durable, reliable, fast & accurate is it?

•Are there limits to the wind speeds it can reliably read? 5, 10, 15 and so on...

•Where does it have problems measuring wind?

•Would this level the playing field for beginners and experienced wind readers?

What do you guys think?

It is very expensive, and possibly impractical...

 

[TripleBull]

I kinda don't think this will make wind calls trivial. I have no factual or technical basis for blowing that cloud of shit into the air, just a healthy respect for Mother Nature's ability to endlessly frustrate me.

 

[wildcats]

I think that might work well at that range ,specially in a hunting situation. however it won't make any diffrence at 800-900 or well past that.

 

[Vamike9]

I think that might work well at that range ,specially in a hunting situation. however it won't make any diffrence at 800-900 or well past that.

Possibly, my guess is they will quickly try to get 1000yd + wind readings in a Gen 2 version...
My gut instinct tells me that modern military snipers and other agencies have higher grade wind readers that they employ...

I just wonder how practical it will be in PRS or other hunting situations, where so much can and will change quickly?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Detailed thread of comments...

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/mother-of-god-trijicon-ventus.6979760/

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Gee Kay]

The way I look at it is, do I want to pay for wind calls or do I want to do it for free...

 

[Vamike9]

The way I look at it is, do I want to pay for wind calls or do I want to do it for free...

True

 

[SD Carpenter]

In the last podcast they talked about it a good bit. With rain/snow/strong wind it can read farther then 500 yards.

 

[Vamike9]

In the last podcast they talked about it a good bit. With rain/snow/strong wind it can read farther then 500 yards.

Yeah, I missed that one, do you have a link?

I wonder if it loses substantial accuracy at extended ranges?

It probably won't range accurately too much farther than 800yds?

 

[SD Carpenter]

Nobody really knows yet. But I mean it's lidar, it's pretty badass.

 

[Vamike9]

Nobody really knows yet. But I mean it's lidar, it's pretty badass.

After thinking on it I am not sure that using a laser in a war zone would be ideal, as you could be targeted by a smart enemy.?

But on the civilian side it could be something once the wrinkles are ironed out...

 

[canezach]

@Vamike9 slight correction in your original post: it can read wind up to a max of 500 yards, not at a minimum. Maybe with more particulates in the air it can reach further.

 

[Vamike9]

@Vamike9 slight correction in your original post: it can read wind up to a max of 500 yards, not at a minimum. Maybe with more particulates in the air it can reach further.

I appreciate that but they are telling me that it will do better than that.
That's just the number that they list as max.

It will also be interesting to learn how high humidity and rain factor into the dust particle reading?

In the end observing through your spotting scope may still be the best option.

Not sure that 500yd consistency is worth 8-10K?

 

[Steel head]

I kinda don't think this will make wind calls trivial. I have no factual or technical basis for blowing that cloud of shit into the air, just a healthy respect for Mother Nature's ability to endlessly frustrate me.

wind is a worthy advisory.
Where I often shoot winds within 500 yards is the least of my problems.

 

[brianf]

If anything it’s the best wind reading class you can ever take and it’s on your weapon, not several states away at a school.

I know for damn sure I would have had a better standing for the get go.

Not everyone has a good mentor or LR range close to home for practice etc, but anyone can look down the street and guess the leaves and grass then compare.

 

[wildcats]

Technology to me doesn't make up for good shooting fundamentals.
An old competitive shooter friend of mine told me this many,many years ago,you will learn more in 1 day at the range shooting at 1k in the wind with flags than you will reading about it.

 

[LawnMM]

It's prohibitively expensive. Might help the odd guy with big money make some hits but it's not going to change life for the vast majority of us.

 

[canezach]

I appreciate that but they are telling me that it will do better than that.
That's just the number that they list as max.

It will also be interesting to learn how high humidity and rain factor into the dust particle reading?

In the end observing through your spotting scope may still be the best option.

Not sure that 500yd consistency is worth 8-10K?

If you're hearing it'll go past 500, then I'm sure the "max of 500" is the lawyer-speak, if you will.

Your last sentence is HUGE, but I do admit I like that they tried. It wasn't terribly long ago the list of "top tier" scopes pretty much started and ended with S&B. Yeah, I owned a Premier and a Steiner, which were both excellent scopes, and there was also Hensoldt, but everyone considered the S&B a cut above (maybe not of the Hensoldt, but you get my point). Now we can find top tier glass with excellent reticles, craftsmanship, warranty, feature-rich scopes in the $2K range that rival what S&B was. Same goes for laser rangefinders. I'm hoping someone will take what Trijicon has done and make it better, less expensive, range further, more accurate, etc.

 

[Vamike9]

Technology to me doesn't make up for good shooting fundamentals.
An old competitive shooter friend of mine told me this many,many years ago,you will learn more in 1 day at the range shooting at 1k in the wind with flags than you will reading about.

Yeah, I believe that you should know what you are doing, not just pushing a button.

Yes fundamentals will still be a factor, but I like challenges and long range is a challenge.

 

[Vamike9]

If you're hearing it'll go past 500, then I'm sure the "max of 500" is the lawyer-speak, if you will.

Your last sentence is HUGE, but I do admit I like that they tried. It wasn't terribly long ago the list of "top tier" scopes pretty much started and ended with S&B. Yeah, I owned a Premier and a Steiner, which were both excellent scopes, and there was also Hensoldt, but everyone considered the S&B a cut above (maybe not of the Hensoldt, but you get my point). Now we can find top tier glass with excellent reticles, craftsmanship, warranty, feature-rich scopes in the $2K range that rival what S&B was. Same goes for laser rangefinders. I'm hoping someone will take what Trijicon has done and make it better, less expensive, range further, more accurate, etc.

I am certain that the technology will improve at a blistering pace.

Not sure that wind will ever something we can factor with no error, yet it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

[brianf]

Even if it fails past 500 and your guessing 500-1000 yards you’ll still be closer then if you have no idea at all.

Unless there is uneven terrain or gusts the wind at 1k usually isn’t switching from 3-9 to 9-3.

To bad they don’t sell the wind tech separately for 2/3 the price

 

[Rthur]

Take it to the AG Cup and see.


R

 

[Vamike9]

Even if it fails past 500 and your guessing 500-1000 yards you’ll still be closer then if you have no idea at all.

Unless there is uneven terrain or gusts the wind at 1k usually isn’t switching from 3-9 to 9-3.

To bad they don’t sell the wind tech separately for 2/3 the price

That is right, but it is most likely the wind reader that is what drives the cost up.

There are so many variables in elr, that I could not see spending that much coin on a 500yd wind reader.

I also, believe in learning how to read wind more than using technology to do it for me.
It feels like cheating in more ways than one.

I mean people are always looking at ways to cheat the wind, this one is a little different though...

 

[kthomas]

It's really cool to see this technology being incorporated into range finding and ballistic solver systems. This is a pretty big break through in technology for us shooters, it will be really cool to see how this technology continues to evolve and get more and more integrated in what we do.

However, to call it the "end of wind calling" is being a bit generous for the technology, this early in the game. Having the ability to read wind for 500 yards (and in some situations further) is a definite advantage (especially in certain applications such as .22 ELR), but you are going to need to know what's going on beyond 500 yards in most applications, especially centerfire ELR. Wind calling will still come into play.

Your projectile is covering a lot of terrain in centerfire ELR shooting, and there can be some very drastic changes in what the wind is doing (and how the terrain is effecting it) from 500 yards to 2,000 - 3,000+. As a shooter, you will still need to figure out what's going on with the wind beyond 500 yards, and how it's going to effect your projectile.

Lidar to 500 yards is a great start, but it's not going to make wind reading skills trivial. Especially for ELR centerfire applications.

 

[SD Carpenter]

It's also a 5k rangefinder, as Frank says a $1 a yard

 

[Vamike9]

It's really cool to see this technology being incorporated into range finding and ballistic solver systems. This is a pretty big break through in technology for us shooters, it will be really cool to see how this technology continues to evolve and get more and more integrated in what we do.

However, to call it the "end of wind calling" is being a bit generous for the technology, this early in the game. Having the ability to read wind for 500 yards (and in some situations further) is a definite advantage (especially in certain applications such as .22 ELR), but you are going to need to know what's going on beyond 500 yards in most applications, especially centerfire ELR. Wind calling will still come into play.

Your projectile is covering a lot of terrain in centerfire ELR shooting, and there can be some very drastic changes in what the wind is doing (and how the terrain is effecting it) from 500 yards to 2,000 - 3,000+. As a shooter, you will still need to figure out what's going on with the wind beyond 500 yards, and how it's going to effect your projectile.

Lidar to 500 yards is a great start, but it's not going to make wind reading skills trivial. Especially for ELR centerfire applications.

Yes, the title was mainly to catch people's attention so that we get a mixed bag of opinions and experienced shooters.

I really think it isn't anywhere close to the end of wind calling, however, it will help some well off people feel a false sense of security.

Technique trumps technology, in my opinion.

 

[Vamike9]

It's also a 5k rangefinder, as Frank says a $1 a yard

In truth, the Leupold rangefinder I own now is a beast for much less than $1 a yard.
I agree with Frank in that it used to be that but I see it changing these days.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Technology to me doesn't make up for good shooting fundamentals.
An old competitive shooter friend of mine told me this many,many years ago,you will learn more in 1 day at the range shooting at 1k in the wind with flags than you will reading about it.

This ain’t your grandaddy’s wind flags.

Once the technology becomes more affordable for longer distances, a bare ass beginner properly using lidar will make the correct/better wind call than the best wind coach on the planet without using one.

Obviously you still need to be able to employ proper fundamentals afterwards. But that’s not what we are talking about here.

This is the beginning of the wind equivalent as the computer chess programs. Humans don’t have a chance at beating it.

 

[HiDesertELR]

I can explain a lot of purchases to my wife, but I think this one would open up a flood gate of revenge purchases...

"... Remember the time you spent $10,000 on a "wind reader thingee?"

 

[Gee Kay]

more like 8-10k

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

6km (Since this is the ELR section of the forum) wind reading distances in a 12lb unit.......

VENOM™ LX

VENOM™ LX wind measurement produces a low cost Wind LIDAR system capable of measuring winds out to 5-6 km from the aerostat.

tplogic.com

The Ventus is NOT designed, geared nor marketed to the .Gov crowd, lolol.....they have exceeded the Ventus technology over 10 years ago.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Vamike9]

At the moment, no field shooter, sniper or competitor could bring a wind reader capable of measuring winds beyond 1000yds on their person.
As far as I know it would be too bulky and wouldn't be very practical?

I think Technology will probably get there in some aspects, however, rain, snow and other environments may cause the reader to be inaccurate or fail completely?

As stated in the article wind gusts may be an issue, and what about 1/2 value winds vs a full crosswind?

Do you want to know what your wind calling skills are worth to 500yds?
Apparently 8k-10k, lol

 

[Vamike9]

Found an article about how the Israeli government was researching this technology and testing it.
Here is a piece of that article you may want to read.

These systems will never replace the utility of an experienced shooter who possesses the skills of wind reading, but it is a real boon for less experienced shooters. In terms of military utility, it is a game changer. I’ve seen and used a prototype of the One Shot, and it does perform as advertised. — SFC Emil Praslick III, USAMU Coach

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Except that "One Shot" system was designed to measure wind speed at target due to the way the laser portion was integrated...not the full distances between the shooter and target.....there is a big reason the "One Shot" program sorta faded away into a money pit

There are and have been hand held units in use for over 10 years that can monitor, detect, read and predict full distance winds....Just add another 0 onto the Ventus price.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Steel head]

In truth, the Leupold rangefinder I own now is a beast for much less than $1 a yard.
I agree with Frank in that it used to be that but I see it changing these days.

I have the same Leupold and agree the $1 rule is getting bent a bit.

 

[Dthomas3523]

At the moment, no field shooter, sniper or competitor could bring a wind reader capable of measuring winds beyond 1000yds on their person.
As far as I know it would be too bulky and wouldn't be very practical?

I think Technology will probably get there in some aspects, however, rain, snow and other environments may cause the reader to be inaccurate or fail completely?

As stated in the article wind gusts may be an issue, and what about 1/2 value winds vs a full crosswind?

Do you want to know what your wind calling skills are worth to 500yds?
Apparently 8k-10k, lol

Rain, snow, etc etc make lidar even more accurate.

This is just the beginning. Just like everything else. Within 10 years this technology will be more affordable and read longer distances. The technology already exists, but isn’t affordable in a consumer grade model.

People said the same shit. A computer will never be able to replace the years of chess experience of a master player. How’d that go for them?

Also, 1 you conveniently didn’t post a link to said article, 2 it’s an old article, 3 that quote is taken out of context as he was mainly talking about the one shot system.

 

[Vamike9]

Rain, snow, etc etc make lidar even more accurate.

This is just the beginning. Just like everything else. Within 10 years this technology will be more affordable and read longer distances. The technology already exists, but isn’t affordable in a consumer grade model.

People said the same shit. A computer will never be able to replace the years of chess experience of a master player. How’d that go for them?

Also, 1 you conveniently didn’t post a link to said article, 2 it’s an old article, 3 that quote is taken out of context as he was mainly talking about the one shot system.

As I have said before, I agree that the tech will advance, but will it ever eliminate wind reading skills ?
I don't think so... at least not in my time.

From what I know, which is little on this subject, if you were to have a lidar capable of measuring multiple points across extended ranges, it would most certainly be huge & impractical for field use...

 

[THEIS]

From what I know, which is little on this subject, if you were to have a lidar capable of measuring multiple points across extended ranges, it would most certainly be huge & impractical for field use...

Hi,

For the third time, lol...that is INCORRECT!!!!

HTI units have been doing it for years and years now.

Edited To Add:
A .Gov version of this unit is being used right now all over the world. It is almost half the size of this maritime version with more than double the distance capabilities.

Racer's Edge Laser Wind Sensor (LWS) by Catch The Wind, Inc.

Oceanmedix sells Prescription Medical Kits, Prescription Medical Products and premium Safety and Emergency products for the serious Recreational Boater and Commercial Fisherman.

www.oceanmedix.com

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Vamike9]

Hi,

For the third time, lol...that is INCORRECT!!!!

HTI units have been doing it for years and years now.

Sincerely,
Theis

Lol, as stated before, this is not my subject of expertise.

The Trijicon engineer was acting as if his was extremely portable compared to others...

Also, he mentioned it would read dust particles… What about rain and snow as some others have stated could make it more accurate?

 

[Merovingian]

Not so sure about "Rain, snow, etc etc make lidar even more accurate." but I'm no engineer. All I know is some technology makes me lazy and I'd prefer not to pay $8K and retard a skill set to being dependent on batteries. It's good to see the innovation though.

 

[Vamike9]

Some want to buy skills and some like to earn them...

 

[Dthomas3523]

Some want to buy skills and some like to earn them...

That has nothing to do with the conversation.

I think these devices shouldn’t be allowed at some types of matches as wind reading is a skill that deserves testing.

The conversation is about the technology which will soon overtake the physical ability of humans. We have limits and sometimes technology’s limit is higher than ours. Sometimes it’s not. Depends on the situation.

It’s always kinda ironic that people make statements like “some people want to buy skill” while they are more than likely using a smartphone to post. Which is arguably the biggest advancement in technology currently available to the average consumer.

But I’m probably wrong and these people are using dial up while riding their bicycle to work.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Not so sure about "Rain, snow, etc etc make lidar even more accurate." but I'm no engineer. All I know is some technology makes me lazy and I'd prefer not to pay $8K and retard a skill set to being dependent on batteries. It's good to see the innovation though.

Lidar uses particulates to make readings.

The more particulates in the air, the better the reading.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Well I am out of this conversation, lolol....makes my head hurt when things are considered new but have been around for more years than the average age of most vehicles parked outside right now in driveways across the USA.

Here is IMO; the underlying issue of why we see people question this technology or make attempts to discredit this technology...PRICE!!

IF the Ventus would have rolled out in the "production" price range of sub 2k dollars then we would see everyone taking a different stance of it in regards to usage or no usage type comments.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Dthomas3523]

Also worth nothing, *if* the particulates get too dense (extremely heavy rain or sand storm), you wouldn’t be taking a shot anyway.

So, yes, it *might* get bad enough not to work properly. But those conditions would have already exceeded situations in which you would reliably be shooting.

There is also the question of this exact unit’s functionality. That’s another topic all together. But the general topic of lidar wind reading is better than any of us can expect to call wind.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Hi,

Well I am out of this conversation, lolol....makes my head hurt when things are considered new but have been around for more years than the average age of most vehicles parked outside right now in driveways across the USA.

Here is IMO; the underlying issue of why we see people question this technology or make attempts to discredit this technology...PRICE!!

IF the Ventus would have rolled out in the "production" price range of sub 2k dollars then we would see everyone taking a different stance of it in regards to usage or no usage type comments.

Sincerely,
Theis

Same. Once people start the “well that doesn’t make sense to me” or think that it’s “new” just because it’s now affordable for the average consumer........it’s impossible to have a conversation.

I’ll check back in 5 years when the bare bones beginner is at matches making perfect wind calls at 1k with his leica 6400 or whatever.

 

[Vamike9]

That has nothing to do with the conversation.

I think these devices shouldn’t be allowed at some types of matches as wind reading is a skill that deserves testing.

The conversation is about the technology which will soon overtake the physical ability of humans. We have limits and sometimes technology’s limit is higher than ours. Sometimes it’s not. Depends on the situation.

It’s always kinda ironic that people make statements like “some people want to buy skill” while they are more than likely using a smartphone to post. Which is arguably the biggest advancement in technology currently available to the average consumer.

But I’m probably wrong and these people are using dial up while riding their bicycle to work.

I respectfully disagree, I think that advancements are a necessary part of what we do.
However, don't rely on these advancements as they will let you down at some point.

I appreciate the knowledge everyone brings to the subject though, as I'm always learning no matter how long I've been in the game.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I respectfully disagree, I think that advancements are a necessary part of what we do.
However, don't rely on these advancements as they will let you down at some point.

I appreciate the knowledge everyone brings to the subject though, as I'm always learning no matter how long I've been in the game.

Never been let down on the job in 20+ years using gps and rangefinders.

If you are let down and in a position where it matters, you didn’t prepare. Extra batteries and an extra device. The odds of two devices failing are pretty high.

If you’re talking about a consumer on a flat range and something failing and their day is “ruined,” that is non consequential.

Most people complaining that technology will “eventually fail you” are just regurgitating that saying or it’s failed in a recreational setting.

 

[Vamike9]

Never been let down on the job in 20+ years using gps and rangefinders.

If you are let down and in a position where it matters, you didn’t prepare. Extra batteries and an extra device. The odds of two devices failing are pretty high.

If you’re talking about a consumer on a flat range and something failing and their day is “ruined,” that is non consequential.

Most people complaining that technology will “eventually fail you” are just regurgitating that saying or it’s failed in a recreational setting.

Then consider yourself lucky friend, I as well as many others have seen it let us down.

Ask most who have served, it is Murphy's Law.

Also, the new Ventus is unique but priced out of most people's budgets.

Can most afford to own a backup lidar? 16,000-20,000?

I do want to see where it leads us though, but right now I rely on personal skill and yes "some" advancements.

We move forward with the times, but there is a price to pay if that's all you have in your back pocket.

 

[Merovingian]

Lidar uses particulates to make readings.

The more particulates in the air, the better the reading.

Should have been more specific. Add precipitation and it's not longer just a wind call. That's more what I was getting at.