rain has no real effect it's still just wind
the supersonic shock wave means the bullet is not touched
the supersonic shock wave means the bullet is not touched
The End Of Wind Calling? -Trijicon Ventus -
- Thread starter Vamike9
- Start date
You’ve been let down by technology while working behind a rifle?
Please elaborate. Specifically a device such as a rangefinder, gps, etc failed an you had to use some sort of outdated manual method to complete your oboective.
Not a “my eotech died, so I had to use the box as a sight until I was able to changed batteries.”
A real life major technology failure. They are rare.
I wouldn’t consider myself lucky. Just properly prepared.
If I have an objective that requires say a good gps to be successful and my success is greatly hampered if that individual device fails, I take two. If they both fail (super low odds) then it’s likely the plans will be scrapped for a better opportunity another time.
“Do or die” and “now or never” scenarios are typically for the movies.
If I have an objective that requires say a good gps to be successful and my success is greatly hampered if that individual device fails, I take two. If they both fail (super low odds) then it’s likely the plans will be scrapped for a better opportunity another time.
“Do or die” and “now or never” scenarios are typically for the movies.
This thread is not to debate you brother...
I won't explain my life or waste my time with this.
If you believe that all man made equipment will never fail, then by all means don't believe anything else.
Good luck, now let's get back to the subject.
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2 X in 24 hrs. I've made an imbecile of myself. You know I've never shot beyond 4-500 in weather due to sight obstruction. Always assumed precipitation had a larger effect on POI at distance. Spent some time reading. Consider me skool'd. Embarrassed that's got by me for over a decade, maybe I should consider taking up golf. Thanks honking in the blind spot guys. Calling it quits for the day before I make it a hat trick.
I just joined this site due to the Ventus discussion. My focus is first shot cold bore hits. Anyone can adjust the first shot and hit; that doesn't fascinate me much. And as we all know, the wind is a deal killer when it comes to first round hits. My goal is to hit within five inches of my point of aim out to 800 yards, and within six inches past that. Anything else is a miss. I rarely miss at 800; my hit rate at 1200 is about 75%. I take a long time to estimate the wind, as I will explain below.
Totally agree with the comment above.
I am old enough to remember how range estimation was a skill; I used a custom reticle from Premier, together with a modified Ranging 1000 rangefinder. I would average the two distances; worked fairly well out to 500. Then, on Jul 30, 1993, I bought a Leica Geovid, becoming the first person to buy one in the US. In one fell swoop, my days of estimating distances were over. What used to take five minutes was now instant - and without error.
I see a lot of parallels here to LRF tech. The first one was expensive and heavy, but it was absolutely a game changer. Nothing came to close to it in terms of technology for quite some time (early Bushnell RFs were crap). Time moved on and today we have much more capable devices for a fraction of the cost.
Do I regret paying $4500 for my Geovid back in 93? Hell no - I quickly moved on from range estimation as the biggest issue to inherent rifle accuracy, and then wind. I was hitting at long range while others were waiting for the price to come down.
The way I estimate wind today is very similar to what I did to estimate range back in the day. I rely principally on mirage, normally by using the side parallax on my NF scopes (I know, a spotter situated so I can look thru that the same time I am aiming is better). But on cloudy days, like last week, where the wind was gusting all over the place, there was no mirage. In the desert foliage doesn't blow much and when it does the direction is often hard to identify. I look for what it is doing behind rocks etc to identify direction, and well as use a shock corded wind flag and my hand held anemometer.
Let's face it, holding up an anemometer like a Kestrel (there is nothing magic about the Kestrel's ability to measure wind) is not terribly accurate. At 1200 yards my bullets are flying higher at some points than I can hold it. The wind effect is almost always greater than I measure with an anemometer. Last week, on that cloudy day, I hit 1 MOA left at 800 yards - I held 1.75 MOA right but total drift was 2.75 - or was it? That rifle can shoot 1/2 MOA at 800, so my true drift was anywhere from 2.25 to 3.0 (bullets don't travel in a straight line - half hit to the right of our point of aim, half hit to the left, the distance being a function of your accuracy).
Thus, the first redeeming feature of the Ventus: you can practice wind calls and not have to worry about the impact of rifle accuracy. That itself is huge.
I typically shoot at 1200 and 1300 yards (these are oriented 45 deg from my 800 yard target) during my practice sessions, which I do at least once a week and will do once per day when my Colorado retreat is finally built. But last week, I didn't even bother shooting past 800 - the wind was gusty and constantly shifting. Here is the second thing I think the Ventus will do: if you constantly "zap" the wind and see it moving more than a few miles per hour in a second or two, you know a first round hit at 1200 is going to be lucky, simply due to the impact a nearly 2 second TOF creates in a constantly changing wind.
The Ventus will only measure to 500, but it will extrapolate the effects over 500 past that. Who doesn't think that is better than what you can do without it? Yes, the wind can change after you measure the speed. But I think most of us determine the prevailing condition, calculate the solution, and then fire when that condition is present. What would be cool is if the Ventus can be focused halfway between your target and your position, thus showing mirage. Zap the wind when the prevailing condition exists. Shoot when you see that either in your spotter or with your parallax focused close (spin it back quickly before taking the shot of course).
A lot of you guys apparently think Mr. Fudd is the only one who sees value in the Ventus. Did we ever say that about LRFs? GPS? As for only the affluent being able to buy one, how much do you spend on a rifle build, and how many of those do you have? Hell, I spend more on most hunts than this costs, so for me it is a no brainer. A guy who can afford a G650 is going to get there faster than a guy flying a Super Cub; it might not be fair, but it's life.
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The way I see it, the Ventus is geared towards the novice long range wind reading crowd.
It is really cool technology, but if only accurate to 500yds, well most of the experienced wind readers probably won't see it worth the price of a nice used car.
It will be interesting to see how the technology develops, however, right now I'll be keeping my cash for other things.
Curious what you guys think though, is 500yds of wind accuracy worth it to you?
It is really cool technology, but if only accurate to 500yds, well most of the experienced wind readers probably won't see it worth the price of a nice used car.
It will be interesting to see how the technology develops, however, right now I'll be keeping my cash for other things.
Curious what you guys think though, is 500yds of wind accuracy worth it to you?
I think of technology that is available to the public like this. Whatever you think is the newest, greatest and fastest, think again. What you can't get your hands on surpasses today's publicly available technology by light-years in the private sector. It really is that simple. Take computers for example, you can go out and buy the fastest machine available to the public today yet it doesn't even come close to what "they" have behind the scenes.
Pen and paper it is...
Pen and paper it is...
What a lot of people seem to be missing in regards to the 500 yard range (assuming it’s very accurate) is this;
Even if you’re making a 1100 yard shot, the wind call from the gun to 500 now has no error in it under normal circumstances. That means the compounding error that would continue to get larger further down range is gone. Since you can remove the wind error at the start, this is much bigger than just knowing what the wind out to 500 is.
Yes, it should absolutely beat a Kestrel. However, with all of the different terrain, crosswinds and other issues, I'm not confident it will be a viable option at extended ranges?
1550 nm lasers take a shortwave IR detector fewer of these out there than most other bands, 1550 nm is out of band for current and probably future NV gear. I don't think a max range of 500 yards will have great military applications it is at longer ranges that the hit rate declines rapidly.
They have other models
The one announced is just one variant of this .... you guys seriously don't think this is where they landed after 12 years with this technology do you ? You honestly think, THIS Model is THE Model ?
The one announced is just one variant of this .... you guys seriously don't think this is where they landed after 12 years with this technology do you ? You honestly think, THIS Model is THE Model ?
I worked the OneShot program for Lockheed and the system we designed measured the wind at many ooints between the target and muzzle and the ballistics solution used the wind values in a step wise fashion to achieve the final ballistics solution.Hi,
Except that "One Shot" system was designed to measure wind speed at target due to the way the laser portion was integrated...not the full distances between the shooter and target.....there is a big reason the "One Shot" program sorta faded away into a money pit
There are and have been hand held units in use for over 10 years that can monitor, detect, read and predict full distance winds....Just add another 0 onto the Ventus price.
Sincerely,
Theis
One issue that will always be present whether using a human-spotter or laser-based wind estimator at ranges beyond 700-800 yards is the time of flight exceeding one second. How many times have you just squeezed off a shot and see the flags, brush, cottonwood fluff, whatever indicators you have show a change in the wind. There are environments/weather systems that the time of flight will be longer the time constant of the wind shifts, you can measure the wind at a time just before you fire you cannot predict the micro-climate conditions to estimate the wind more than a second after the trigger is pulled. The time of flight will be an issue no matter what cartridge you use, the range where it causes problems will just be different.
wade
This is based on the Lockheed system
They rented Rifles Only, Trijicon, Lockheed as part of the One Shot System back in 2008.
We spent a week with scientists and engineers from both.
it does more than what you see here, to shoot a mover you just have to follow it. The wind was enabled back then too. You guys are basing your assumptions on a single release, but this not the first product from these test, and this is not the only variant
They rented Rifles Only, Trijicon, Lockheed as part of the One Shot System back in 2008.
We spent a week with scientists and engineers from both.
it does more than what you see here, to shoot a mover you just have to follow it. The wind was enabled back then too. You guys are basing your assumptions on a single release, but this not the first product from these test, and this is not the only variant
The more particles in the air that will reflect the laser light the greater the signal to noise ratio is for a LIDAR system, up to some limiting factor that too much signal (light) gets scattered out of the optical path back to the sensor. Higher signal to noise ratio in general will lead to higher accuracy and greater range.
My Edit [ I wan to add the following to the rain and snow discussion: A LIDAR system may have an increase in range in accuracy and range with rain and snow but it does not take much rain and/or snow to limit visibility such that you cannot see the target at significant ranges. The OneShot could make provide an accurate ballistic solution for shots at 1,000 meters in light rain that we could not see the target. ]
wade
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Lockheed's OneShot system did not use LIDAR, I was the lead engineer for the hardware implementation for the Lockheed OneShot. I will not discuss the phenomenology exploited by Lockheed's OneShot for obvious reasons but you can be assured that LIDAR was not the technique.
wade
were you at RO back in the day with Tony, and Aaron?
They never called it lidar, but the system now is using it for the civilian model
They never called it lidar, but the system now is using it for the civilian model
Not at RO but spent 3 weeks testing with 4 USMC scout-sniper teams at Pōhakuloa, I had some health issues and left Lockheed right after that testing. I was not aware that Lockheed had a civilian version of a wind reading system on the market.
wade
I haven't used a Kestrel for wind in years. It's basically for DA and temperature for zero and then to recheck for changes along the way. I can't wait until a unit comes out with 100 yard 'zones' that calculates the net wind speed out to 1k+.
While the LIDAR right now is only to 500, sure, until it gets to 1k or whatever your range is there will be variables past that to account for. However, if shooting 1200 yards, at a 12 inch 1 MOA target, that target is roughly .3mils high/wide.
A 3mph wind call error with a 6.5CM@2780fps is already .2mils 'wrong' at 500 yards. Having the LIDAR to kill that error out to 500 already increases the chances of a hit by deterring error at the shooter out to 500, instead of just at the shooter like a Kestrel.
I'll never be able to afford this thing. Guess I'd better get really good at stalking.
And I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for these things to become "affordable."
And I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for these things to become "affordable."
Yeah, we'll probably be very old men by the time this technology is the price of a Bushnell or Leupold rangefinder?
Just curious, how do you think this technology will affect experienced wind readers in and out of competition?
Is the military still teaching wind reading in sniper school and if so, is passing that aspect of the overall school still considered a necessity?
Given earlier comments on here it's clear that civ tech lags FAR behind mil tech but if mil still considers manual wind reading a priority then I'd say it's a fundamental skill any good shooter should have.
Given earlier comments on here it's clear that civ tech lags FAR behind mil tech but if mil still considers manual wind reading a priority then I'd say it's a fundamental skill any good shooter should have.
I think that we move forward with the times, and learn how to implement this as an aid not solution.
Just like ballistic solvers it will take knowledge and experience to get the most out of it.
I see what you are saying and agree with that logic.
Still, it will continue to be a need for practical wind reading skills at extended ranges.
So many variables in elr and so many things that can go wrong.
In a dusty/dry land environment my H59 can get 2nd round hits with relative ease...
So we are always looking for ways to cheat the wind.
As we progress in competition, hunting and other forms of long range shooting, it may become more about fundamentals than environmental factors someday?
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Have you never shot in the rain ?
2ft at 100 yards,
Honestly has ANYONE EVER SEEN 2ft of deflection on a bullet in the rain
I have shot matches in the rain and the hit ratio does not change
This was "simulated"
2ft at 100 yards,
Honestly has ANYONE EVER SEEN 2ft of deflection on a bullet in the rain
I have shot matches in the rain and the hit ratio does not change
This was "simulated"
Yeah it didn't make sense to me either, how they got so much deflection compared to the real world.
I would ask even if the machine could replace you learning how to call the wind would you really rather it replace you ability to do it ? It may be nice to have as a back up but who wants to take away from the skill involved in figuring out your hold . Not that I am any where near competent at doing it I get pretty close some of the time I look forward to the grind in learning the journey being better than reaching the end to me . Asking for help and questions along that journey to me makes it all the more worth while . Not to mention I know its going to have a huge price tag so its free skill vrs expensive machine that could run out of batteries . Than and being a pain in the ass I love a good struggle and the feeling of success when you finally get something that little light bulb moment .
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I think this would be cool tech to rent sometime to just be able to visualize effects of terrain to help train my "brain eyes" visualize how everything affects the wind flow/direction a bit better. I understand general effects, but magnitude of effect would be awesome to quantify. Good to see some interesting new (to civ) technology!
This is similar to something I have thought of setting up: standard weather anemometers next to wind flags and videoing the wind flags with the measured wind written on the screen as a means of teaching Long Range High Power shooters to estimate wind. The anemometers that can be read by electronics run about $70 a piece so it is doable. That way shooters could get an idea of what flag movement corresponded to a given wind direction and speed. The same kind of setup could be used to correlate movement of vegetation to wind, not as easy as a remote wind measurement system but affordable to mere mortals.
Early when I was shooting LR I carried a Kestrel anemometer in my pocket and would take it out occasionally when walking in the field to start to understand what wind values did what to the vegetation. I have not used a Kestrel much for shooting as it only told me what the wind was at my location not what was happening downrange, but I did like it for training when wandering around in the field and woods.
wade
I have heard it suggested by more than one person to just carry a kestrel/wind meter or whatever to help calibrate your eyes and feel to what the wind is doing. I like your idea to do that at distance too. Its a good idea for sure.
The Ventus is a step in the right direction, while still far from destination (if such thing exists at all) and I can see they marketing this device to start collecting real money to back their R&D budget. I'm sure next year we'll witness new and better units. As a demonstrator is a great thing to head up the masses on this "new" tech though
Now that looks like some fun suck to be in!Nobody stopped shooting during this event
I don't agree with their calculation but the video shows the bullet hitting the (simulated) rain and the shockwave has NO effect on the raindrops. Ten thousand raindrops over distance will effect the bullet.
Like to see benchrest shooters chime in.
Oh, and you know I have! I live on the wetside in the NWP.? I got web feet
Some might fine this interesting?
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can you not believe reality, your own eyes,
one the drop appeared artificially large and the conclusions as stated makes no sense
just because its in a video using a slow motion camera doesnt mean they conducted a successful experiment
we shoot in the rain all the time. the effects are known and it doesnt match the results in this single video
i swear people will throw common sense out the window because Dr Google said so, i can post a shitload of videos demonstrating the earth is flat too.
one the drop appeared artificially large and the conclusions as stated makes no sense
just because its in a video using a slow motion camera doesnt mean they conducted a successful experiment
we shoot in the rain all the time. the effects are known and it doesnt match the results in this single video
i swear people will throw common sense out the window because Dr Google said so, i can post a shitload of videos demonstrating the earth is flat too.
Well I couldn't get the link again but the gest of it was a new satellite launch (2019) that will measure wind on LAND.
In the past they have only been able to work over the oceans.
So the unbelievable is here. Soon maybe there will be an app that can used with cell phone but more than likely satellite phone?
In the past they have only been able to work over the oceans.
So the unbelievable is here. Soon maybe there will be an app that can used with cell phone but more than likely satellite phone?
Dude WTF are you talking about, wind on land vs water,
They can track wind on land, hell they have apps that show you the wind visually
This my range, I use this app to look at the wind before I go out every time
It moves and is interactive in how it displays the wind
You guys just need to stop with the BS and the Guessing on shit you have no clue
Just talking out your ass does not make a worthwhile debate
They can track wind on land, hell they have apps that show you the wind visually
This my range, I use this app to look at the wind before I go out every time
It moves and is interactive in how it displays the wind
You guys just need to stop with the BS and the Guessing on shit you have no clue
Just talking out your ass does not make a worthwhile debate
What app is that? What basis does it use for winds? Most of the wind charts we use in aviation are computer models based on a limited number of reporting stations. It would be nice to see real world data for all points of interest.
Mike
Mike
Excellent info; I have often wondered this myself - at 1200 yards it takes a bullet a visibly long time to impact. I still think there is merit in having an exact wind solution for the first 500 yards. How many times have you taken a shot at say 700-900 and found the same wind value to hold true on a target 500 yards further downrange?
Just seeing how fast wind is changing with an optical instrument like the Ventus would be revealing with respect to the wind solution.
But at some point, TOF becomes a problem that cannot be overcome.
Wade: did you or others ever try to build a wind probability density function? It would be interesting to see if you could calculate one say every minute for five minutes, then compare the mean and std dev of each one.
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