i said i walk with it deployed for kneeling height, similar length to the video...or are you arguing over the 2 seconds it takes to kick the legs out from collapsed to spread? if so...you win i guess...bring your wheel barrow, leave the key board at home
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The Everyday Sniper Episode 84 Gunwerks AAR
- Thread starter Lowlight
- Start date
i said i walk with it deployed for kneeling height, similar length to the video...or are you arguing over the 2 seconds it takes to kick the legs out from collapsed to spread? if so...you win i guess...bring your wheel barrow, leave the key board at home
Hilarious to me how people keep calling each other "keyboard warrior" and say "hiding behind a computer" and that "I don't get into the drama". It is funny because they are sitting behind a computer and a keyboard while being part of the drama while saying it. I'm sorry I am not out shooting right now and I am on my computer. I wish I could shoot 24/7 but it's not exactly feasible. I typically don't bring my keyboard with me to shoot but maybe I could use it to game a stage. You never know.
windcheater, no need to hold any LOL
6mm Prancer, cause Dasher is venison sausage in a pig wrapper
6mm Prancer, cause Dasher is venison sausage in a pig wrapper
Maybe everyone can list a bio and post links to every match they have ever shoot. Then we can all post our opinions on whether or not their opinion matters based on number of matches and ranking in the match.
right,
Notice every response from the parties involved includes an insult to the membership.
But they are the ones "growing the sport" or better yet, act like they are the only ones shooting matches.
Notice every response from the parties involved includes an insult to the membership.
But they are the ones "growing the sport" or better yet, act like they are the only ones shooting matches.
National, regional or local? (That's where the argument "what matches have you shot?" falls down).
Realize something, the world doesn't revolve around PRS sanctioned matches, and really have no bearing on whether someone has experience or proficiency. And yes, I've shot PRS matches; but the vast majority have been local matches. I can shoot a lot more 1 day, $35 matches than I can $300, 2 day matches.
Realize something, the world doesn't revolve around PRS sanctioned matches, and really have no bearing on whether someone has experience or proficiency. And yes, I've shot PRS matches; but the vast majority have been local matches. I can shoot a lot more 1 day, $35 matches than I can $300, 2 day matches.
i didnt say anything about prs matches...i didnt specify because it doesnt matter...i just want to know if jpgolf is shooting any matches anywhere, or just complaining about why he isnt shooting any....i wasnt asking anyone else, which is why i quoted him
All one has to do is go to the Serie(s) website and look and see who is actually shooting the matches as part of the group.
The numbers are tiny when you consider the big picture. They are just a bit more vocal about it.
But that number usually hovers around 350 shooters for the bigger series, and even smaller if you look at who has shot 3 or more of the bigger matches. The last time I know someone looked at those numbers it was something like 178 guys shot 3 or more as part of the series.
In total it's a lot less than they realize and that is part of their problem.
The numbers are tiny when you consider the big picture. They are just a bit more vocal about it.
But that number usually hovers around 350 shooters for the bigger series, and even smaller if you look at who has shot 3 or more of the bigger matches. The last time I know someone looked at those numbers it was something like 178 guys shot 3 or more as part of the series.
In total it's a lot less than they realize and that is part of their problem.
i personally dont like the way its setup...id rather it be local, with top guys advancing to regional, then national...id much rather shoot 15 local matches, and then have a chance to advance, than having to travel to 2-3 other national level matches...im not sure how much it would change in other regions, but in our local region there are only 3 shooters in the top 15 who dont already travel and shoot PRS matches, and none of them are in the top 5...doesnt seem like it would change much for us, but other regions may have a different spread
when the series changed hands, it should have been updated, twice now actually out of the 4 changes that really took place.
They should have a proper path for advancement vs forcing guys to travel and do the national matches.
With each new owner, it was always more of the same in terms of the mentally. They believed added matches was enough, mainly because it requires no effort on their part. Just let the MD do all the work and slap their name on it. Never even addressing the problem, just spin it and outlast the issue until the next guy steps up.
Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum, vs an actual sanctioning body who sits back and adds their name to everything.
perception is the fast lane to failure,
They should have a proper path for advancement vs forcing guys to travel and do the national matches.
With each new owner, it was always more of the same in terms of the mentally. They believed added matches was enough, mainly because it requires no effort on their part. Just let the MD do all the work and slap their name on it. Never even addressing the problem, just spin it and outlast the issue until the next guy steps up.
Clearly, the inmates are running the asylum, vs an actual sanctioning body who sits back and adds their name to everything.
perception is the fast lane to failure,
Yep. Bumping my gums alright, was at the range earlier sunday morning prepping for our match next weekend, pre-shooting our stages and looking at what could be gamed so we could write our essay to make sure people shoot the stage with the intent of the stage. This is something phil did extremely well at the gunwerks match. (the one this thread is about...) His COF was written very well and I think everyone understood what the intent of the stages were. If they didnt understand, they could read the match booklet (also best I've seen) and it was crystal clear.
For the boat simulator, since you didnt clarify, it sounds like you would have been ok with me leaving my tripod attached to my rifle, set up a the sitting position, then i could have kicked out a bipod leg to touch your boat simulator and shoot sitting behind it off a tripod. Within your rules? Sure. but i guarantee that was not your intent of how the stage was to be shot.
Thanks for the kind words, the whole reason Nolegs and i go to these matches is for fun, to meet people, test ourselves and bring ideas back to our club. Its a bonus If we do well. Based on the last handful we have shot, we aren't half bad.
Glad your top guys loved it. Honestly. However, how many total shooters did you have? how many new shooters loved it? how many will come back next year?
Based on your rules, I could shred them like this:
#1: So the new guys who don't have shit are immediately at a disadvantage, please read above and answer how the new shooters loved the match.
#2: I've carried 2 sets of gear + 160lbs between stages, whats your point? If you're in shape, a 50lb pack is not hard to hump around.
#3: Supported on the barricade, cool, define supported? if you use the literal definition and stick to this then, yes, i agree.
#4: Using this rule i can negate rule #3. carry as much shit as i want and build a new position to barely "support" a part of the rifle.
#5: "No Prone on bipod" so i could go prone using my tripod or a pack. check.
Now, with that being said, i completely understand your intent and that is how I would personally go about shooting your match. Mainly because i like to challenge myself on how the match director meant for the stages to be shot. I could game the fuck out of any stage any match director designed but whats the point? To post that I won because I was able to completely shoot the stage different than what was intended? Please see earlier post about "fag"
Another example cause work is slow right now and i have time be a keyboard "sniper"
Moving stages. typically there are two posts that dictate the area in which you are allowed to engage the mover. If your match booklet did not specify that it was to be shot in-between the posts, why not wait until the mover stopped to turn around? This could be argued very easily because it was not written down. Look at any other sport, if the rules are not clearly stated, there is room for contestants to argue.
I come from a racing background and you should see the thickness of those rulebooks. Do we want precision match rulebooks to be 100+ pages thick? or do we want to be able to write a COF a few days/weeks before a match and everyone who shows up, reads the book and sees the intent of how the stage was meant to be shot. At the end of the day its a fun hobby/sport and its clear if you use some common sense how the MD wanted the stage to be shot.
TL DR - don't be a fag. shoot the stage with the intent of the MD.
Lol. As I stated multiple times in this thread, I have no interest in joining your little group to run around with a lazy boy attached to my arm and a bunch of crap to carry while trying to figure out how best to game the system to get a prize. Does that mean I can’t shoot? Drills and friendly comps between buddies that we do say I’m decent. Would my clock get cleaned at PRS match? Maybe, maybe not. I guarantee I would finish above some. At this point I would much rather spend $300 on reloading components and go shoot 600 rounds and get better. I don't need glory or recognition to tell me I am a good shooter. You are more than welcome to come out and watch me shoot. Or if you want to do like someone else has done around here feel free to offer to pay my expenses to come to a match so you can watch me shoot(offer was reneged when I agreed lol) . I have two small kids and two businesses to run so let me know well in advance so I can plan it.
Can't have 15 local matches without enough shooters. So maybe think about how to grow the game more and how to game stages less.
thats what i figured
you dont have to join any group (excuse)
you dont have to carry around a bunch of stuff and game everything (excuse)
lots of matches out there that arent $300 (excuse)
maybe all your buddy's are good? maybe they arent...if they arent out shooting matches (since you obviously arent), based on my experience from shooting and running them...prolly not as good as they think they are...most new match shooters get their teeth kicked in because theyre used to shooting in their controlled ideal environments where its comfy
i dont need to watch you shoot...just know that theres a bunch of you that always have excuses every match opportunity...i hear the same things over and over after every one of them we run
gotta agree with the above
We used to offer free slots to guys on here who thought they were good enough, no one ever stepped up to accept the free slot offer.
We used to offer free slots to guys on here who thought they were good enough, no one ever stepped up to accept the free slot offer.
you should really just stfu cause you dont have a clue at this point...
our local tx regions have almost had to start putting caps on the monthly matches because the venues arent large enough to support the amount of shooters showing up
the national may not be moving, but the local level is growing like crazy
Local matches are where it is at, some venues can even suffer two a month, to be honest.
You have a ton more flexibility at the local level and the ability to change things for the better to help educate.
We even do side matches at our local event, where a core group will decide to shoot, .22 variants only, as an example. Where some of the better shooters will run the course with a .22 variant vs the others. .223, .224, etc,
We can work with new shooters, taking them to the side to shoot stages they completely screw up. It's both training and experience wrapped up in one.
It takes people out of their comfort zone to understand how bigger matches work should they choose to try one.
You have a ton more flexibility at the local level and the ability to change things for the better to help educate.
We even do side matches at our local event, where a core group will decide to shoot, .22 variants only, as an example. Where some of the better shooters will run the course with a .22 variant vs the others. .223, .224, etc,
We can work with new shooters, taking them to the side to shoot stages they completely screw up. It's both training and experience wrapped up in one.
It takes people out of their comfort zone to understand how bigger matches work should they choose to try one.
Ya, with all the local matches that seem to be popping up, people that don’t/won’t shoot matches should go to at least ONE match and try it out. From my limited exposure, it’s not gamer BS and prize table drama like you hear about at the bigger matches. Go eat some humble pie and grow as a shooter. Hell, get involved and help grow the sport at a local level.
Hell yeah local matches are growing, we capped ours at 30 for now, once we get some more people schooled up on squad moming, we could support 60 fairly easily. We’re also working with the new range managers and giving our input that could potentially support 80. We’re seeing an average of 6-8 new faces each month.
yup, similar here, usually 5 new shooters every match and a total of 189 different shooters so far this year...thats just our small area in south tx within about a 2 hour radius...it was 111 and 104 degrees at the July and August matches, and we still had 55-60 show up at both
I’m pretty sure I’m the only one who “stepped” up for that offer for the Team Challenge this year... lol
Define good..... You are saying "good at PRS".
What is PRS?
Being presented with different shooting positions and hitting targets.
Do I need to go to a match to shoot targets from different shooting positions?
No.
Would 1st match nerves probably make me not shoot as good as I am capable?
Probably.
Did I say I would win the match?
No. I'm not delusional.
Did I say I would get second?
No.
Did I say I may get my clock cleaned?
Yes.
What did I say I would do?
Not finish last or very close to last.
What in the hell does my experience in matches have to do with my opinion on how ridic that video was?
Nothing.
Was that an excuse to dismiss my opinion and boast about how you do shoot in matches?
Yes.
Just because one is not good at prs the first time they try it does not mean they are not a good shooter. It means they are doing something new. PRS is not my barometer for if I am a good shooter. Watching how it is done, it does not interest me so why would I care? Why would I try to get good at something that looks silly to me? All of the bags and props I mean. My kind of challenge would be more of a mammoth challenge with a little more shooting and little less walking. Just because someone is not experienced at your game does not mean you are a better shooter. It means you are better at your game.
It looks like I have been missing out.
This isn't directed @Lowlight (Frank can actually bitch about PRS because he does have skin in the game) as much as it is to the "If only" fence sitters that are saying "If only it was different I would show up and shoot." The rub is that you come across as saying that PRS is bad for the shooting community. It's really easy to point and laugh and say that sandbags make it too easy, and that tripods are gay, or whatever. Like earlier in this thread someone posted the video of the guy on the platform, and then the match director shows up and says that "That was actually the way the stage was meant to be shot."
And "If Onlys" are not unique to PRS either. Look at NRA Highpower and how a bunch of guys bitch about scopes being allowed. The same guys that weren't shooting, and were never going to shoot were bitching about how M16s eradicated their really manly rifles from the firing line, and before that they were bitching about shooting coats, or carts, or that the guns were heavy, or that it wasn't realistic enough, or that wind flags make it too easy. At the end of the day, if you can't shoot with all of the advantages in the world given to you...you're not going to all of a sudden shine without those advantages.
The fact of the matter the vast majority of those guys were just Non-Shooting fucks that don't want to have their egos bruised and use the internet as a medium to denigrate the accomplishment of others in order to assuage the little voice in the back of their head that tells them they aren't really as good as they think they are. After all, you could probably shoot just as well as Brandon Green and win the Presidents 100 Match if it wasn't for the fact that he's just using a shooting coat to make up for his lack of skill. If everyone had to shoot real rifles and not that Highpower crap you'd probably be just as good as he is.
I do this for fun. The guys on the fence act like they want matches to focus on solving realistic problems and being less contrived. Or being a different test of skill. Those matches exist too. Joe Harris had his spin on what a tactical match should be. Competition Dynamics has their thing. Those formats are just not as popular and take a lot more effort and space to pull off well.
And to be quite honest, Mammoth was one of the most contrived and miserable formats out there. I'm still salty about being conned into being actively miserable, freezing my nuts off playing slip-n-slide in Kentucky with 75lbs of military gear and eating frozen MRE's for 3 days. The shooting and scoring portion of Mammoth though was contrived...When the AMU shot it they basically won the match based on 1 stage because of how the scoring was. Even if you take out all of the faux military stuff from Mammoth...the shooting portion was not really well designed.
There have also been .308 Only matches that have been tried. They aren't a lot of them because as it turns out, the "If Onlys" don't show up, and the guys that want to shoot their wind cheating stuff don't want to shoot .308 Winchester.
PRS doesn't do a lot to influence match design. I could become a match director, design my take on the ultimate field match, and throw in one of the tie-breaker PRS stages...and boom...I have a PRS match. Matches are designed, ran, and gamed the way that they are because that is what the match director does. Not every match is going to be everyones cup of tea. And the way that PRS or NRL is ran isn't going to make everyone happy. If you think there is a better way to format things, organize matches, etc...there is nothing stopping you from doing so.
I don't have really strong opinions on how PRS is organized. I don't pay the membership dues. I do shoot the "National" level matches that are within driving distance. I do pretty well in them I think. I have fun shooting and hanging out with friends. And the matches that I have been to are pretty consistent at selling around 100 slots which is as many shooters as match directors are comfortable to handle. 60 of those slots might be the same guys that are really passionate about it. And with any shooting sport, your repeat customers are the ones that are going to drive it.
There are a lot more matches this year than there were last year, and a lot more club stuff too. I can shoot a club match at least once a month for the most part. It's easier to find a match today than ever. The course of fire might not be what you think it should be. Shooting in any form of competition is worthwhile for it's own sake. I like shooting for the sake of shooting. Indoor air pistol is about as far removed from Long Range shooting as you can get, but I would be willing to bet that a decent air pistol shooter is much better on the fundamental level than the weekend warriors that lug out their sniper systems and aimlessly plink away at the range.
I guess my point is that the "If Onlys" want the benefit of having an already established sport, but they don't want to do the legwork to develop it themselves. Guys that don't participate want to dictate and shame guys that actually do participate into making the sport different to suit them. And even if they did change it for them, they would probably still find a reason to not show up. The guys that like shooting are still going to show up to the matches regardless if the rules are adjusted to cater towards the non-shooters.
This isn't directed @Lowlight (Frank can actually bitch about PRS because he does have skin in the game) as much as it is to the "If only" fence sitters that are saying "If only it was different I would show up and shoot." The rub is that you come across as saying that PRS is bad for the shooting community. It's really easy to point and laugh and say that sandbags make it too easy, and that tripods are gay, or whatever. Like earlier in this thread someone posted the video of the guy on the platform, and then the match director shows up and says that "That was actually the way the stage was meant to be shot."
And "If Onlys" are not unique to PRS either. Look at NRA Highpower and how a bunch of guys bitch about scopes being allowed. The same guys that weren't shooting, and were never going to shoot were bitching about how M16s eradicated their really manly rifles from the firing line, and before that they were bitching about shooting coats, or carts, or that the guns were heavy, or that it wasn't realistic enough, or that wind flags make it too easy. At the end of the day, if you can't shoot with all of the advantages in the world given to you...you're not going to all of a sudden shine without those advantages.
The fact of the matter the vast majority of those guys were just Non-Shooting fucks that don't want to have their egos bruised and use the internet as a medium to denigrate the accomplishment of others in order to assuage the little voice in the back of their head that tells them they aren't really as good as they think they are. After all, you could probably shoot just as well as Brandon Green and win the Presidents 100 Match if it wasn't for the fact that he's just using a shooting coat to make up for his lack of skill. If everyone had to shoot real rifles and not that Highpower crap you'd probably be just as good as he is.
I do this for fun. The guys on the fence act like they want matches to focus on solving realistic problems and being less contrived. Or being a different test of skill. Those matches exist too. Joe Harris had his spin on what a tactical match should be. Competition Dynamics has their thing. Those formats are just not as popular and take a lot more effort and space to pull off well.
And to be quite honest, Mammoth was one of the most contrived and miserable formats out there. I'm still salty about being conned into being actively miserable, freezing my nuts off playing slip-n-slide in Kentucky with 75lbs of military gear and eating frozen MRE's for 3 days. The shooting and scoring portion of Mammoth though was contrived...When the AMU shot it they basically won the match based on 1 stage because of how the scoring was. Even if you take out all of the faux military stuff from Mammoth...the shooting portion was not really well designed.
There have also been .308 Only matches that have been tried. They aren't a lot of them because as it turns out, the "If Onlys" don't show up, and the guys that want to shoot their wind cheating stuff don't want to shoot .308 Winchester.
PRS doesn't do a lot to influence match design. I could become a match director, design my take on the ultimate field match, and throw in one of the tie-breaker PRS stages...and boom...I have a PRS match. Matches are designed, ran, and gamed the way that they are because that is what the match director does. Not every match is going to be everyones cup of tea. And the way that PRS or NRL is ran isn't going to make everyone happy. If you think there is a better way to format things, organize matches, etc...there is nothing stopping you from doing so.
I don't have really strong opinions on how PRS is organized. I don't pay the membership dues. I do shoot the "National" level matches that are within driving distance. I do pretty well in them I think. I have fun shooting and hanging out with friends. And the matches that I have been to are pretty consistent at selling around 100 slots which is as many shooters as match directors are comfortable to handle. 60 of those slots might be the same guys that are really passionate about it. And with any shooting sport, your repeat customers are the ones that are going to drive it.
There are a lot more matches this year than there were last year, and a lot more club stuff too. I can shoot a club match at least once a month for the most part. It's easier to find a match today than ever. The course of fire might not be what you think it should be. Shooting in any form of competition is worthwhile for it's own sake. I like shooting for the sake of shooting. Indoor air pistol is about as far removed from Long Range shooting as you can get, but I would be willing to bet that a decent air pistol shooter is much better on the fundamental level than the weekend warriors that lug out their sniper systems and aimlessly plink away at the range.
I guess my point is that the "If Onlys" want the benefit of having an already established sport, but they don't want to do the legwork to develop it themselves. Guys that don't participate want to dictate and shame guys that actually do participate into making the sport different to suit them. And even if they did change it for them, they would probably still find a reason to not show up. The guys that like shooting are still going to show up to the matches regardless if the rules are adjusted to cater towards the non-shooters.
i dont mean prs...i mean having a target and hitting it under conditions you didnt set up and control....quit assuming im just talking prs
its really pretty simple, quit trying to over complicate it...there are prs matches that are field style with very few props...just natural terrain and obstacles
lots of people think are good shooters in their own backyard...so is someone a good shooter if theyre only good at their range where they set up and control every variable? i didnt mention my results, i just wanted to see your name on a score sheet anywhere to see if you had ever even been to one...of any type...anywhere...i didnt say you had to place anywhere on it either, i just wanted to see that you had
Same issue you have in So Cal, we have up in Central/Northern CA.
We have a fairly unique hiking course that is at capacity at just under 50, we can easily split stages and about double the capacity but that will also means a bit of a format change, from one shot per target, 6-7 targets each station to running 2 shots per target at 3-4 targets. But, we are only interested in doing so if we can keep the prices super low and provide something that will bring new shooters into the matches without totally loosing our base. That said, people might be surprised to find some guys shooting with a team like GAP, or whomever, showing up at the club matches even in CA.
Currently we're running as two types of matches in one.. So a new shooter can shoot the entire match prone at the same targets (in a prone division), as the positional; when comfortable, enter the positional format. We absolutely need tweaking and feedback from the hide and non-match shooters who have interest. Bottom line is our MD is listening.
Honestly, while some might not like that Frank stood up and brought some of these issues to a larger stage, they have always been there. I think in the long run, even people a bit put off by the topic will see the value of his message. I am not blowing smoke up anyone's ass, it is just healthy to look at what we can do around the country to grow the sport. In order to do that, we do have to acknowledge that there is room for improvement.
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I think the reason is because most "match shooters" love to take any disagreement on the interwebz and say (in the deepest, coolest voice you can come up with) "What do you know bro, do you even shoot matches"?? " or "how about you post your match results and then we will talk!!" Then they lead down the path of "bro you would get your teeth kicked in at my match". And it gets turned around as if the non-match shooter came in saying they could win any match they entered when the grand match shooter is the one who brought it up in an attempt to posture themselves as superior.
That is exactly what just happened with me. I never said a word about how I could shoot a match better than anyone and then I get asked "do you even match bro". I answered no, and said I may get my clock cleaned but I think I could do decent. And now somehow it is now turned around like I challenged the entire prs community to a duel. I never challenged anyone. If I had the desire to shoot matches I would be shooting matches. Should I go shoot a match just to prove something to people on the internet? With a family and 2 businesses to run I can't dedicate whole weekends and tons of time to entering and shooting matches. I have more important things to do. And I don't say that in a derogatory way. I literally have much more important things to do.
My only question is,
Despite the drama which exists with or without me and SH, what has changed regardless of the call asking for changes?
We still have competitors competing against the match directors instead of their fellow competitors. To the point, they will work together to game a stage vs doing it as envisioned. It's not innovative to completely rewrite the stage to suit you. As Serge noted above we can all go outside the box, that does not require the smarts being put forth as innovation. Why have a floating platform if you can just wedge shit under it. Even if 90% of those who tried failed, it only takes one to change the perception of the stage.
I get wanting a bulletproof COF but let's be honest, this trend is fairly new, the gaming side of things. We never had to "explain" our intentions to the degree being required. To the point, anything you can't game is getting left on the wayside. If you build a stage and then let me bypass it using my tripod, why not just give me a tripod stage, especially if you know that is how they will game it. It used to be considered bad form for a MD to shoot his own match because he might know something the competitor doesn't. But if gaming is all good, why not just let everyone shoot it, including MD and ROs, just mix everyone in. Clearly, stage descriptions are just a suggestion.
There have been calls for a path towards national level competition, yet every match is still a 2 day National Level match equal in every way to the 50 other matches happening at the same time. The low budget fixes have not worked, they don't get supported and the shooters of these production classes feel left out. I had one of the winners of the production class spell it out how his effort was dismissed by the series in previous years. So how does this help? I know, it's effort and takes times, but nobody is even trying.
The stages being created are dependent on Height / Size, Gear or Equipment to the point of, the right piece of equipment can make a difference. This is what people dont' like. How do you expand the sport to women and children if you have to stop everything to change the stage to make it work? You can easily design this stuff to work regardless of the shooter's size or equipment. How do I know, we did it for 10 years before the Series existed. The skill stages are a joke, and the Barricade spec is stupid.
The lady shooters are putting heels on to reach the top of the obstacles. I have to stand on my bags to reach, how do you bring in young and new shooters if everything is too big? or requires a specific piece of gear. I always approached it, if you can use a piece of kit not everyone will have, make it available. If a tripod is a key part of the stage, put a tripod on the line for others to use. Use yours or theirs, but make it available.
In my opinion, it is a case of, "I've got mine you figure out how to get yours", it's a series of cliques and whichever ones have the most sway is the direction things go. It's a small group of influencers setting the tone and no matter how you spin it, people are not responding.
They are running short of shooters because of it, matches are being canceled or they are running short of Range Officers pulling guys in to get it done. Then once a "top shooter" questions anything the ROs says, it's changed, and in some cases the MDs cave to those shooters vs saying, "It's not the intent". It's better to let them do what they want and call it a success vs having someone question their effort.
I agree with innovating, but there has to be a balance. My field match has no gear restrictions, but you have to carry it and over miles, not yards. We don't have rules nitpicking because the terrain levels the playing field. It's not a crime to say 90% of the match will be played straight with 10% of the stages being open to gaming. In those cases I would say, Leave series of obstacles or props in place and say, "Build a position using the following", you must shoot over this point with only the following support, or yes you can innovate but it has to be done on the clock and make the stage Blind so true innovation is unveiled vs the monkey see, monkey do. If 12 guys can show up early, watch the previous squad, then huddle to game the stage you just killed the idea of an individual match. Is this a team sport or an individual competition? That is what new shooters don't like, only the new guys who showed up as part of a clique will say it's fair. If BOB enters your match alone and sees this happen he will not be happy.
I recall the first 3GUN match I ever saw or shot here in CO when I first arrived in the state. I got the brief, no walkthrough at the time but, not getting the rules of 3GUN I shot it as explained. I was the first shooter, and the second guy, being a seasoned 3GN shooter, he shot it completely different. Instead of shooting the targets from 50 yards out and working his way in as explained, he fired one round and ran ahead, fired one round and ran ahead, until he got to 10 yards then knocked the targets down super fast. He engaged the targets with the one round, ran forward and then hit every target from 10 yards vs 50, 35, 25, etc. Turned me off and I never went back. I could have learned the rules better and tried again, but why? Clearly, I was the idiot trying to knock a popper down from 50 yards. My bad, but the perception was off-putting to me. You have to look at the big picture and not your individual success. The goal should be an inviting match, vs an inside joke.
I did not cause the drama, I am not the only one questioning this, and if it was perfect, we would not see books being written addressing it.
Despite the drama which exists with or without me and SH, what has changed regardless of the call asking for changes?
We still have competitors competing against the match directors instead of their fellow competitors. To the point, they will work together to game a stage vs doing it as envisioned. It's not innovative to completely rewrite the stage to suit you. As Serge noted above we can all go outside the box, that does not require the smarts being put forth as innovation. Why have a floating platform if you can just wedge shit under it. Even if 90% of those who tried failed, it only takes one to change the perception of the stage.
I get wanting a bulletproof COF but let's be honest, this trend is fairly new, the gaming side of things. We never had to "explain" our intentions to the degree being required. To the point, anything you can't game is getting left on the wayside. If you build a stage and then let me bypass it using my tripod, why not just give me a tripod stage, especially if you know that is how they will game it. It used to be considered bad form for a MD to shoot his own match because he might know something the competitor doesn't. But if gaming is all good, why not just let everyone shoot it, including MD and ROs, just mix everyone in. Clearly, stage descriptions are just a suggestion.
There have been calls for a path towards national level competition, yet every match is still a 2 day National Level match equal in every way to the 50 other matches happening at the same time. The low budget fixes have not worked, they don't get supported and the shooters of these production classes feel left out. I had one of the winners of the production class spell it out how his effort was dismissed by the series in previous years. So how does this help? I know, it's effort and takes times, but nobody is even trying.
The stages being created are dependent on Height / Size, Gear or Equipment to the point of, the right piece of equipment can make a difference. This is what people dont' like. How do you expand the sport to women and children if you have to stop everything to change the stage to make it work? You can easily design this stuff to work regardless of the shooter's size or equipment. How do I know, we did it for 10 years before the Series existed. The skill stages are a joke, and the Barricade spec is stupid.
The lady shooters are putting heels on to reach the top of the obstacles. I have to stand on my bags to reach, how do you bring in young and new shooters if everything is too big? or requires a specific piece of gear. I always approached it, if you can use a piece of kit not everyone will have, make it available. If a tripod is a key part of the stage, put a tripod on the line for others to use. Use yours or theirs, but make it available.
In my opinion, it is a case of, "I've got mine you figure out how to get yours", it's a series of cliques and whichever ones have the most sway is the direction things go. It's a small group of influencers setting the tone and no matter how you spin it, people are not responding.
They are running short of shooters because of it, matches are being canceled or they are running short of Range Officers pulling guys in to get it done. Then once a "top shooter" questions anything the ROs says, it's changed, and in some cases the MDs cave to those shooters vs saying, "It's not the intent". It's better to let them do what they want and call it a success vs having someone question their effort.
I agree with innovating, but there has to be a balance. My field match has no gear restrictions, but you have to carry it and over miles, not yards. We don't have rules nitpicking because the terrain levels the playing field. It's not a crime to say 90% of the match will be played straight with 10% of the stages being open to gaming. In those cases I would say, Leave series of obstacles or props in place and say, "Build a position using the following", you must shoot over this point with only the following support, or yes you can innovate but it has to be done on the clock and make the stage Blind so true innovation is unveiled vs the monkey see, monkey do. If 12 guys can show up early, watch the previous squad, then huddle to game the stage you just killed the idea of an individual match. Is this a team sport or an individual competition? That is what new shooters don't like, only the new guys who showed up as part of a clique will say it's fair. If BOB enters your match alone and sees this happen he will not be happy.
I recall the first 3GUN match I ever saw or shot here in CO when I first arrived in the state. I got the brief, no walkthrough at the time but, not getting the rules of 3GUN I shot it as explained. I was the first shooter, and the second guy, being a seasoned 3GN shooter, he shot it completely different. Instead of shooting the targets from 50 yards out and working his way in as explained, he fired one round and ran ahead, fired one round and ran ahead, until he got to 10 yards then knocked the targets down super fast. He engaged the targets with the one round, ran forward and then hit every target from 10 yards vs 50, 35, 25, etc. Turned me off and I never went back. I could have learned the rules better and tried again, but why? Clearly, I was the idiot trying to knock a popper down from 50 yards. My bad, but the perception was off-putting to me. You have to look at the big picture and not your individual success. The goal should be an inviting match, vs an inside joke.
I did not cause the drama, I am not the only one questioning this, and if it was perfect, we would not see books being written addressing it.
Well I can't control the wind and weather so I am not controlling conditions. And other than match pressure I can't imagine how creating your own obstacles to shoot from is any different than someone else creating them. You still have to shoot from them. Don't act like there is some black magic in obstacles created for a match. We quite often challenge each other to shoot from jacked up positions when we go out. That's because I want to improve as a shooter. You told me to "stfu" because I didn't know what I was talking about and now you are telling me how I shoot when you have never seen where or how I shoot. Right back at ya there keyboard kid.
So a PRS match with even more contrived stages, a cockamamie scoring system that let's one shooter run away with the whole match based on 1 stage, and a limitation on how big your foam filled sock can be?
No I actually started to write "and also more normal shooting rather than the ridic set ups" but I only know this from reading about it and I knew Morganprickt or whoever he is would be all "well, well, well, have you shot the mammoth then how do you know??" so I left that part out. I agree 100% to tone down the ridic set ups. Let me shoot my gun the way it was intended to be shot. OK have a few shots where you have to balance on an apple and shoot sidewways with your eyes closed but that is only fun for a minute.
Curious how one team ran away by one stage? Were the points weighted or something?
Curious how one team ran away by one stage? Were the points weighted or something?
I didn’t bring up how good you were against your friends...you did...I just pointed out how it holds zero weight
I asked to see your name on a match result sheet anywhere, that’s it...now you’re in defense mode
You got told to stfu cause you’re were commenting about not being able to grow local matches without shooters when there are tons and you have no clue what you’re talking about (because you’re at home), it had nothing to do with shooting
Don’t be a cuck and try to play the “innocent attacked victim” now...I’m done here, I’m fine with my keyboard because my rifle runs also
One of the stages I shot at Mammoth was you had to shimmy across a ratchet strap with all of your gear and then low crawl into a mock hide site before you could start shooting. That wasn't the most contrived stage either...that was basically par for the course. It's more of a test of athleticism, and how light your camping gear is than anything else. A lot of the targets are not intended for you to hit them at all. There's a lot more misses than there are hits. The game is deciding what targets to shoot at, and what order to shoot the team. Mammoth is all about gaming.
The one I went to was scored based first on whether or not you finished. Only 25 or so teams stuck it out and made the movement times. We would have finished top 25 out of 75 teams if we had just left the rifles at home, and just did the walking and sleeping outside portion of the match.
The year before that, they had a stage that was something to the effect of a big target worth 1 point, a medium one worth 2, and a small one worth 3, and you could shoot as many rounds as you wanted in the time limit off the prop. Praslick/Green found the small plate and sent a ton of rounds into it and came away from the stage with a ridiculous number of points; as in they literally would have still won if they stopped shooting right there.
Gtfo with that shit you said “let’s see some match scores and then I may believe you.” Don’t walk it back now Mr Match Shooter. Stick with it.
I said my friends and I have friendly comps on challenging shooting positions because you insinuated that I was parked on a bench with a Caldwell deadshot bag. HTF am I in defense mode? What are you, 12?
Like a true keyboard warrior you assume I can't shoot. I have not said a word about your shooting because I have never seen you shoot. Keyboard warriors say things like, "I am fine because MY rifle runs" lol. More posturing. You have no idea if I can shoot. Your mouth is writing a lot of checks. I hope you keep an ample balance in the account.
And I said that about local matches because they are almost nonexistent around here. Other than a random 3 gun every now and then. So speak for your own area before you act like you know what’s happening in mine.
Don’t be a cuck, whatever that is, and act all high and mighty as you leave. Pffft.
I said my friends and I have friendly comps on challenging shooting positions because you insinuated that I was parked on a bench with a Caldwell deadshot bag. HTF am I in defense mode? What are you, 12?
Like a true keyboard warrior you assume I can't shoot. I have not said a word about your shooting because I have never seen you shoot. Keyboard warriors say things like, "I am fine because MY rifle runs" lol. More posturing. You have no idea if I can shoot. Your mouth is writing a lot of checks. I hope you keep an ample balance in the account.
And I said that about local matches because they are almost nonexistent around here. Other than a random 3 gun every now and then. So speak for your own area before you act like you know what’s happening in mine.
Don’t be a cuck, whatever that is, and act all high and mighty as you leave. Pffft.
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Yea that’s ridic. I was thinking about trying to get in on it but once I read peoples experiences I figured it was not much fun. I’m fine with physically challenging, I’m in good shape. That doesn’t mean I want to run a marathon and only shoot a few round from upside down inside of a phone booth.
@jpgolffl, you might to look up @lash in Florida. He has some matches that you really might like and is in your neck of the woods. Club matches are usual 1 day, so it works well for the busy professional etc. Best of all they let people play in settings they otherwise couldn't. They have a entirely different vibe than you might be imagining.. You might really enjoy it.
edited to add: Not in anyway saying or implying anything about your shooting or anyones. Just I know how hard it can be to get away for 5-7 days for an out of area match. You can also reach out and get the tempo of a match to see if it is a fit for you.
edited to add: Not in anyway saying or implying anything about your shooting or anyones. Just I know how hard it can be to get away for 5-7 days for an out of area match. You can also reach out and get the tempo of a match to see if it is a fit for you.
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Thanks, I have no doubt I would enjoy a local match without games. I am kinda near arena and they have some MPA matches every now and then but it is tough to catch one on a weekend I am not working. And yea, 5-7 days out of town for a match would be laughable. Not sure how anyone could do that unless they were childless or retired!
Thanks for the forward, @Diver160651. @jpgolffl, there's a match this Sunday, 8/26, at VCGHC in Volusia County. $50, 7a-1p, probably around 90 rounds (bring enough), a small group of 12-18 from anywhere around Florida. Fun stages, challenging stages, can't say necessary "realistic" stages, but I consider this a precision rifle match so there will be precision as well as some movement for stressed positions. We make no pretense towards scenario style nor true "PRS" as it currently is defined.
I am not the primary person behind these matches, but just happen to run one now and then when Dave is otherwise committed.
Come on out and shoot! Basic information is available on the VCGHC site, under rifle matches.
I am not the primary person behind these matches, but just happen to run one now and then when Dave is otherwise committed.
Come on out and shoot! Basic information is available on the VCGHC site, under rifle matches.
I’ve got a 3 month old and shot 6 matches (3 national level, 3 local) in the last 3 months. Also have 2 jobs and working on some side projects. Couple that with staying current in the airplane and making it to the racetrack. Rule #76....
Appreciate the invite but thats over 4 hours for me. Thats 9 hours on the road, no way I can do that.
Ahhh, I remember the days when I had one 3 month old. Wait until you have two that are 3 and 4 lol. I guess you can ship them to daycare but I like to raise my own kids. Once they are a bit older hopefully they will get into it and I could bring them along!
I am would be willing to bet that match directors are going to make moves to prevent some of the gaming; at least the stuff that is unsporting over the next year. I already see it at some of the matches I've been to this year. I know that if I ran a match, I would be telling the shooters that what the RO says is what goes. That's kind of how the stuff in the Southeast is run anyways, and the guys RO-ing are shooters so they know what to look for.
I talked to some of the RO's at the MPA Match, and there weren't a lot of stages that you could outright break. It was pretty much your standard move and shoot bolt gun match with props. The Pre-Deployed use the tripod as a rear support thing is kind of gay. I think gunwerks were smart to have shooters deploy it on the clock. You can make a PRS match that also isn't really convoluted. I know the CORE match that I shot last year or the year before had a Day 2 course of fire where you could only use 1 bag.
Maybe now that the number of matches has reached a saturation point, they'll focus on improving the product instead of just focusing on making the product. Not just PRS, but match shooting in general. We have a good number of venues and shooters that it can sustain itself, whereas in past years there were places that only had 1 or 2 matches per year, or the local matches that existed weren't known about. I want change, but I don't expect it to happen over night, and I don't expect that I will be happy with all of those changes.
I find this thread really interesting. We just held our first local .22LR tactical match and it was a success because we had shooters that ranged from VERY experienced and talented to brand new (never shot a match in their life). We also had a wide range of equipment from ($7,000 Vudoo rigs) to guys showing up with 10/22's and 3-10x leupolds w/ duplex reticles. It was a success because it was challenging for the experienced shooters and encouraging for the new guys. It was a success because all had a good time and want to come back. A venue is successful if people want to repeat and it grows.
It all boils down to correctly setting expectations. If you are running a "problem solving" or "McGiver" match say so up front and let the shooters know that their approach and creativity will affect the scores. If you are running a "gear wars" match or a "tri-pod" match say so and let shooters know that they will be disadvantaged if they don't show up with certain pieces of kit. If you are running a "field hunting" style match set gear limits accordingly. In the end, if you slightly exceed the expectations of each participant none will leave feeling "gamed" as Frank described in his first 3-gun match and it will grow.
Our match stressed "field shooting" situations and had stages designed to teach/test skills that you would use hunting. We limited personal equipment to a rifle, optic, sling and bi-pod, all other equipment (bags, sticks, tri-pod etc) was provided to so that each shooter, especially the new shooters did not feel disadvantaged by guys with gear. We had two classes, Tactical and Hunting based on the optics. The guys in the hunting class had a great time and did not feel disadvantaged as they were told up front that the guys with exposed turrets would outscore them so don't worry about it. As MD, I did get a few complaints about how well the prairie dog targets blended into the berms and that it was hard to pick them out under time pressure; however, all shooters admitted that they had never seen a bright white prairie dog in the field and in the end, they thought the 3-color prairie dog camo added to the fun of the match.
Set expectations correctly so that they can be met or slightly exceeded. Help and encourage the new shooters (we allowed spotting and coaching for new guys - but they had to ask for help). We put new guys with some experienced guys so that they could get help if they wanted.
Remember we do this to learn, get better and have fun ... it should be fun.
It all boils down to correctly setting expectations. If you are running a "problem solving" or "McGiver" match say so up front and let the shooters know that their approach and creativity will affect the scores. If you are running a "gear wars" match or a "tri-pod" match say so and let shooters know that they will be disadvantaged if they don't show up with certain pieces of kit. If you are running a "field hunting" style match set gear limits accordingly. In the end, if you slightly exceed the expectations of each participant none will leave feeling "gamed" as Frank described in his first 3-gun match and it will grow.
Our match stressed "field shooting" situations and had stages designed to teach/test skills that you would use hunting. We limited personal equipment to a rifle, optic, sling and bi-pod, all other equipment (bags, sticks, tri-pod etc) was provided to so that each shooter, especially the new shooters did not feel disadvantaged by guys with gear. We had two classes, Tactical and Hunting based on the optics. The guys in the hunting class had a great time and did not feel disadvantaged as they were told up front that the guys with exposed turrets would outscore them so don't worry about it. As MD, I did get a few complaints about how well the prairie dog targets blended into the berms and that it was hard to pick them out under time pressure; however, all shooters admitted that they had never seen a bright white prairie dog in the field and in the end, they thought the 3-color prairie dog camo added to the fun of the match.
Set expectations correctly so that they can be met or slightly exceeded. Help and encourage the new shooters (we allowed spotting and coaching for new guys - but they had to ask for help). We put new guys with some experienced guys so that they could get help if they wanted.
Remember we do this to learn, get better and have fun ... it should be fun.
If you want to shoot one of the matches at Arena, I can bring a rifle and scope for you to use. Just show up and bring ammo and pay your entry fee. Or if you just want to shoot at one of the open range days I can bring stuff down.
Appreciate the offer man. I've been to arena a few times and am good on rifles. Well, I guess we are never good on rifles lol. Were you there this past wknd?
Nice. We were prob there at the same time. Did you happen to share your watermelon and terrapin on Sat?
