Did you miss the part where I said it was a mistake and I learned from it? As far as the review goes, that already happens. A few people in this thread have tried to paint a pretty negative picture of NRL/PRS matches but I've never walked away from a match thinking I wont go back or those guys are a bunch of assholes. It's still a good group of guys and gals out having a good time and not taking themselves too seriously. At least in my experience.
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The Everyday Sniper Episode 84 Gunwerks AAR
- Thread starter Lowlight
- Start date
This is the crux of the issue and why they are so defensive over it. They know there is a cross section of shooters bullying the ROs to force them in this direction and then the mental gymnastics start to justify it. One guy will say it was not him, but they all know someone started it, however in their mind as long as it "wasn't them" they are covered.
they are just doing what the guy before them did, Nuremberg Defense for Competition Shooters
With all due respect....... Says the guy who gamed the stage because he saw others doing it.
And if reviews happen why did you follow them and modify the obstacle rather than shooting it as designed and then asking for a review on how they shot it?
This is going in circles. It clearly was allowed in the COF a review would do nothing and that would make me a whiny bitch... with all due respect.
Ahhhhh the ever-lasting cycle of gaming, HMFIC banning trolls, PRS drama, and the smell of burnt souls and chapped asses. Match drama. I love it. Let me axe this question: how many in here actively compete..ie... points char in the national series or regional series scene?
Your first post said that when you first saw someone jamming big bags and a tripod into the moving obstacle to stabilize it you wondered how no one was saying anything but you reluctantly did it yourself because you were in fourth place. Your new post says that it was clearly allowed in the COF. Got it.
You forgot, "match shooters calling their buddies to quickly join the forum and defend them by asking, do yall even match bro?" lmao.
Video gets posted. This is what's wrong with PRS etc.
Random users call the shooter a fag.
Guys laugh at the "dumb shit."
The match director shows up says "I wrote the course of fire and I was fine with this. Shooter was in the right. Not everyone that tried it this way was as successful. I would have been more clear if I wasn't dealing with range flooding. No big deal."
Shooter shows up and "Why are you calling me a dumb shit? I watched 3 other guys do it before and the RO was fine with it."
Match directors and ROs run the match. The Situation could be solved by adding a sentence to the stage brief. Or just telling ROs to use their judgement and make a call on how the stage should be shot. Because at some point someone asked the RO "Is it okay if I do x" and they agreed to it.
90% of the drama comes from guys that don't shoot matches. There's a lot less controversy within PRS jtself because the guys that are directing matches are also PRS shooters, and the guys that are RO-ing are shooters.
Basically the gripe is that the guys whining the loudest are not going to shoot matches, and they aren't going to run them either. If you want a format that's tailor made for your needs, go out and make one. Or make it a PRS match and tell the ROs how you want the stage done. Gunwerks figured it out. There's plenty of room in PRS for the purists and the gamers.
Doesn't matter,
It's perception, and left on its own just looks bad in a host of ways. You can debate the semantics of who did what when, but when viewed alone, as many of these situations are, the result is what we have here.
Nobody is gonna look at the entire situation, it's just a snapshot in time, one stage is enough to start the ball rolling in the wrong direction.
This is what the defenders don't get. They feel, they were there, they know "How", maybe even "Why" it happened. But viewed through the microscope of social media the results are evident.
I just ordered about 10 Million more Pixel today, gonna be a long winter.
It's perception, and left on its own just looks bad in a host of ways. You can debate the semantics of who did what when, but when viewed alone, as many of these situations are, the result is what we have here.
Nobody is gonna look at the entire situation, it's just a snapshot in time, one stage is enough to start the ball rolling in the wrong direction.
This is what the defenders don't get. They feel, they were there, they know "How", maybe even "Why" it happened. But viewed through the microscope of social media the results are evident.
I just ordered about 10 Million more Pixel today, gonna be a long winter.
Winner winner chicken dinner! 90% of the mouthvomit comes from people that won’t shoot matches, RO matches, or MD a match.
Bullshit,
A large majority here commenting do both, shoot, and MD...
We identified one guy not shooting matches in all this drama
Nice try Spin Doctors
I did forget that. So you don’t shoot matches? I get it. It’s the calmer, gentlier Internet. Where sensitive entities that haven’t taken part in something have to run fingers to weigh in with their baseless opinions and lack of experience. I totally get it. It’s typical Freudian Ego vs SuperEgo vs I’d. Haven’t shit a match, but let’s get on a forum and complain about something I haven’t done yet. It’s kinda like a virgin giving Peter North advice on how to drench Jenna Jameson. And I’ve been in this forum since 2001, but under different names, different faces. It’s ok. Even babies need to learn to crawl then walk...
I'm failing to see the contradiction you are trying to point out. Are you just wanting to argue or are you trying to offer solutions to a perceived problem? Whats going on here? Feel free to troll my fb posts for analysis if you want but it seems to me all you want to do is complain so peace out.
Technically you're a tolerated Troll and have been since day one.
Mildly entertaining so we suffer the occasional interruption you provide, kinda like a Colorado Smoke Break
Mildly entertaining so we suffer the occasional interruption you provide, kinda like a Colorado Smoke Break
I will call bullshit as well. While I have not shot a "National match" either due to lack of time or seeing shit like what has been posted here. I do shoot local matches. I also RO, Assist MD 22 matches and MD pistol matches. It is an equipment/gear race where the one who can "innovate" the best wins. Or at minimum finishes at the top because of the innovative use of a shit ton of gear. Most shooting sports have equipment restrictions. This one does not. That is the issue I see. Bring whatever you want that you think you can win with.
That is the kindest, most hearfelt, endearing thing you have ever said to me... I’m gettong all choked up; like a newb on a spinner or Texas star stage.. don’t worry Frankie, many on the outside of the Hide compare you to cloud of mustard gas for the Sport.
I know and makes me feel all warm inside
I don't care what they think, I am growing while their shit is being mocked and stale. hell, I can't even keep up, my schedule is so busy.
Those same guys dont' have an issue using the site to advertise their games, and while most will also call me irrelevant, the smart ones know better.
To date I have not had to cancel a single match of mine, I have not had to call anyone and beg for help with attendance, and when they stopped coming to my matches, the drama factor dropped to 0, clues right there.
I could easily flip and make them all my friends again because they so desperate they would eat it up. Instead, I will just keep poisoning their well laughing all the way to the bank.
They are flakes, just looking to score a trinket off the prize table. Meanwhile, I am poisoning that too for them. When 52nd and 79th place win the best prizes you can thank me later.
Eyeballs Man, I have them, they wish they could muster a 1/10 of the attention I get.
I don't care what they think, I am growing while their shit is being mocked and stale. hell, I can't even keep up, my schedule is so busy.
Those same guys dont' have an issue using the site to advertise their games, and while most will also call me irrelevant, the smart ones know better.
To date I have not had to cancel a single match of mine, I have not had to call anyone and beg for help with attendance, and when they stopped coming to my matches, the drama factor dropped to 0, clues right there.
I could easily flip and make them all my friends again because they so desperate they would eat it up. Instead, I will just keep poisoning their well laughing all the way to the bank.
They are flakes, just looking to score a trinket off the prize table. Meanwhile, I am poisoning that too for them. When 52nd and 79th place win the best prizes you can thank me later.
Eyeballs Man, I have them, they wish they could muster a 1/10 of the attention I get.
I think we've reached a point in the thread where effective discussion isn't possible.
My point is that in this specific instance that was used as an example, we have all of the parties that were actually involved coming to the board and saying "Look it wasn't that big of a deal." The Match director isn't peeved. The shooters aren't really peeved.
Guys that shot in a different match on the other side of the country are mad. Guys that don't shoot matches are mad. And when the guys that were there are like "We weren't mad about it. We will leave it the same or handle it at the next match. There's a simple solution."
Even like the thing with the Uno bag. I heard about it at MPA...and that guy using it at the match got kudos just based on how ridiculous it is.
Match Directors and ROs run matches. Having 2nd parties come to the thread and shitting on their matches isn't going to make things better. Calling a shooter a fag for shooting the match within the rules isn't exactly constructive criticism. (Not accusing you but others that use you as lighting rod for their position are. And @Shankster_lives is doing the same with my posts.)
I've shot 3 of the 2 day matches this year. I don't like every stage, but I'm fine with that because I realize that match directors are trying to come up with something that is unique even if it defaults to "The wall is now concrete. Now it's a girder. Now it's a bus."
There are more matches this year than any other year before. I can shoot 15 club level matches, and 6 2 day matches if I am willing to drive anywhere between an hour and a half to 4 hours.
The guys getting the venues, making the courses of fire, putting out the targets, doing the RO-ing are putting in the hard work. You can't grow the sport if there's nowhere to shoot. And the guys doing the work are guys that are already shooters that love the sport. And I want them to continue what they do because I like to shoot.
And a lot of guys that post here just see the negative stuff. The complaints about gaming. The complaints about bags. The complaints about the prize table. The complaints about people wearing jerseys. And it makes it look like it's a lot more widespread than it is, and makes it seem like matches are filled with just assholes looking out for themselves.
The "Sport" is going to progress but change doesn't happen overnight. We haven't quite gotten it right. A lot of your criticism is valid. But right now it has progressed a lot further from where it was a year ago. I am really glad that there are matches on a consistent basis and guys willing to put up with shooters for a weekend.
All of this talk has actually made me want to go shoot a match lol. Ima go shoot one at arena and by god I will have a PDF of that match result on deck ready to post that shit up when challenged. Maybe it will say I got 3 points and it was a single 1 day match but damnit I shot a match so I can now comment on matches! For real though once I line one up I'll PM you so you can tell me what the hell to practice.
10 4 I'd def like to know a rough idea of positions to practice before hand. Keeping an eye out for a 1 day match at arena and hoping it falls on a slow weekend.
I called him a fag cause he did faggy things. Simple. First and 5th did equally faggy things.
Like I stated before, try this at my match and I’ll call you out and DQ you from the stage. It’s a local match so you’ll be able to reshoot it. We all know the MD intent, don’t be a fag and try to manipulate it. Shoot it in the spirit that it was intended.
I.e.
90%? Might a bit overstated. Jpgolffl I think was the only one who said they haven’t been to a match.
What Phil did at the gunwerks match was a huge step in the right direction with regards to explanation in the match booklet.
I’d post the whole match booklet but for some reason the EDS section won’t let me post photos directly from my iPhone.
Man this thread has gone off the deep end. As a new shooter that has never shot a prs type match (I have no credibility in some people’s mind) it’s very discouraging to see some of the more seasoned shooter’s attitude. Makes me not want to go shoot a match. As far as the gaming, it’s pretty obvious that the stage with the moving platform was intended to be moving while you shoot. Why not just unhook the chains of you don’t want it to move (rhetorical question)? It’s just dumb IMO. So I’m going to have to agree with Frank that perception does matter. Seeing shit like that doesn’t motivate me to go shoot a match. What does motivate me is seeing guys like bbbb offering his time and knowledge to help a fellow shooter before they shoot their first match. That’s really cool of him. I’m hoping that this is like anything else where the 95% of people are nice and helpful and it’s just the 5% that are assholes.
Looks like you're in orange county. Short Drive to Pala (near temecula) and we have our monthly match this coming sunday. I bet i could arrange a carpool for you with @tools2teach since he is in westminster. We allow coaching for new shooters and guaranteed everyone you meet here will be solid. We take shit from no one and truly want to help our members get better.
As for the 95/5% Id say its more like 99% of the people in the sport are nice and helpful and really, the guys gaming it are more than likely nice guys, they just like taking advantage of the situation. goes back to MarinePMI's comment about integrity.
As for getting spun up before a match, first saturday of the month we run trainups to help show new shooters different methods to attacking props or stages. Since we started doing this the overall hit percentage of our shooters has increased drastically.
Thanks for the offer. I know pala well as I shoot uspsa there. I’ve been meaning to get out to one of your matches, but it’s been hard since I just started working sundays. I’ll definitely have to try out your training day. Are you running one in September?
Pretty sure I hear a cough forming for this Sunday. You’re gonna have to take a sick day.
I think we will have one in September but I won’t be there. I’ve got a USAC race in Calistoga that weekend.
First, since it seems one must establish they actually shot matches, I shoot a lot of matches. I'm not a national level "player" (shoot a few now and again) but I shoot a lot of regional Team and League matches as well as RO a few times a year. The debate on gaming and gear restrictions is one that shooters seem to fall on one side or the other. I'm not gonna go there but one side of the equation I don't see being discussed here is the monkey see monkey do aspect. I get it, nothing is "fair' 100% of the time, never will be. That being said, seeing a clever / innovative / questionable tactic used to defeat an obstacle that the RO allows (so legal - agree or not) brings to my mind the following;
- How many scores will now be higher due to this "innovation" ??
- How deep in the match did we get before this "innovation" occurred ??
- Can this info be shared for an advantage the following day ??
- forget the "spirit" of the stage debate
- forget match director intention
I have been on both sides of this situation and the only answer I see is a true blind stage. Take away the "super squad" and monkey see monkey do advantage. Make this an individual sport again not my squad gamed it better. I realize every match location doesn't have the ability/space/venue for this at a club level. National matches do for sure and I hope more MDs do this. This however only works when Day 1 and Day 2 are different ranges not swapped or the info will get out and we know intel will be shared.
A well written COF that eliminates doubt and has clarity makes this debate almost moot. However, If a MD designs a stage where he desires and wants creative thinking and problem solving to be a big part of the stage... make it BLIND please. I see dudes at matches with binos watching the next stage down the line getting "ideas" and that is as bad as cheating in my opinion when it is an individual sport. I am not bitching here, just hooping some MDs see this and it gives them some food for thought when spinning up a COF. Blind stages are the best stages imo and matches that are 100% blind would be FUCKIN AMAZING!!!!
- How many scores will now be higher due to this "innovation" ??
- How deep in the match did we get before this "innovation" occurred ??
- Can this info be shared for an advantage the following day ??
- forget the "spirit" of the stage debate
- forget match director intention
I have been on both sides of this situation and the only answer I see is a true blind stage. Take away the "super squad" and monkey see monkey do advantage. Make this an individual sport again not my squad gamed it better. I realize every match location doesn't have the ability/space/venue for this at a club level. National matches do for sure and I hope more MDs do this. This however only works when Day 1 and Day 2 are different ranges not swapped or the info will get out and we know intel will be shared.
A well written COF that eliminates doubt and has clarity makes this debate almost moot. However, If a MD designs a stage where he desires and wants creative thinking and problem solving to be a big part of the stage... make it BLIND please. I see dudes at matches with binos watching the next stage down the line getting "ideas" and that is as bad as cheating in my opinion when it is an individual sport. I am not bitching here, just hooping some MDs see this and it gives them some food for thought when spinning up a COF. Blind stages are the best stages imo and matches that are 100% blind would be FUCKIN AMAZING!!!!
I shot my first match in July in Central Texas and it included a blind stage. Wasn't the most difficult stage in my opinion but wasn't easy by any means. I enjoyed it and my squad did good by not giving away any part of the positions. We could see the targets and could tell that the weren't getting hit very often.
Shooter carries a hand clamp. Fastens it to side of barricade and places bag on the clamp.
Nevermind the fact that the rifle slides and breaks the 180 while he is clamping.
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He almost broke his teeth with his own muzzle brake a second earlier, but that's a separate issue, and partially caused by the mud.
Using a quick grip clamp under the clock to build a ledge is at least slightly practical and could be useful in other situations, if the gear rules allowed it. Wedging a bag in the chains of a floating platform to defeat the purpose of the obstacle is a whole different level, especially after being told in the match brief to follow the intent of the stages.
Using a quick grip clamp under the clock to build a ledge is at least slightly practical and could be useful in other situations, if the gear rules allowed it. Wedging a bag in the chains of a floating platform to defeat the purpose of the obstacle is a whole different level, especially after being told in the match brief to follow the intent of the stages.
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