The fate of the Remington 700 in 2017

[devldogs55]

A majority of rifle owners/buyers will put no more than a couple boxes of factory ammo through their rifle each year; that is Remington's market, not volume precision shooters like people on this website.

Reality is Average Joe can't fathom or really afford dropping $800-900 on a CTR, HCR or HMR, let alone $1100 on a RPR, then another couple hundred on scope bases/rings and another grand or two on optics. If they could do that, they typically can't or won't swing $200-250 for a 200rd case of ammo. No, they're going to Academy or Wal-Mart or Cabelas and buying a <$400 700 ADL (or Savage or Ruger American) and might even have to wonder what their money is getting them beyond an Axis II or 783. They boresight, then put three rounds on a pie plate at 100 yards and go hunt deer, then the rifle resides in a closet or case or safe for most of the next 364 days.

I have to agree with this. My friends are all shooters and they own a lot of guns.. but they own a lot of walmart specials. I told them the rifle I was having built was $4k and they looked at me like I had a dick growing out of my forehead.

They have $650 rifles and $300 scopes, and they shoot mixed head stamp bulk factory reloads with unknown FMJs and get pissed off when they suck.

 

[boomer81]

ive built quite a few custom guns. two surgeon 6.5 creeds etc etc. im not talking out of the box 700 but i can take a sps .308 a jewel or timney a tally 20 moa base and a fat wrench and make it a half moa gun with a decent scope. thats under $1k on the gun for $2k i could buy the action,barrel ,trigger etc and have it trued and all that.

a defiance or surgeon is gonna be $1400 on the action alone. i built a .243ai with a 700 action i got for $250. hs stock shnieder tubb 5r barrel. and most of the tubb parts. i had less than $2k in it when done and cerekoated and it was the best shooting gun i ever had. sub moa at 1000. i can work on it and get parts quick and easy if i need to. if remington would just intergrate 20moa bases into the design it would be nice. but there is a reason all these custom guns are based on that action. i also have a sako a7 roughtech pro i bought new for $900.00 that shoots half moa or better with .208 amax handloads and is sub moa with cheap 150 grain winchester. so i do see both sides. but parts after market and ease of working on them is the awnser. i can usually make someones 700 sub moa with a fat wrench.

 

[patriot07]

I have to agree with this. My friends are all shooters and they own a lot of guns.. but they own a lot of walmart specials. I told them the rifle I was having built was $4k and they looked at me like I had a dick growing out of my forehead.

They have $650 rifles and $300 scopes, and they shoot mixed head stamp bulk factory reloads with unknown FMJs and get pissed off when they suck.

This gets a nomination for post of the day.

I used to think it was silly to spend $800-$1k on a rifle. Now, I think a Tikka CTR is the best value in the bolt action rifle market and I have a good understanding of why folks spend big money on custom guns. It's difficult to understand unless you spend a bunch of time behind the trigger, and very easy to understand if you do.

 

[jLorenzo]

They seem to me to be a little overpriced. I don't see why I would get a 6-700$ Remington when I could get a 4-500$ Savage Or Howa. I have had some minor problems with 1 Savage rim fire after thousands and thousands of rounds. Howa seems to be built better out of higher quality components with a better finish, Savage is probably about the same maybe slightly better finish wise on some models but they blow Remington out of the water feature wise, much wider selection of features and calibers. Only Remingtons that interest me are the 700 long range, which I have heard people having problems with a little more often than other guns, and the MSR which is insanely priced. Other than that My guns will be Howas, Tikkas, and Savages. I am not a big spender and just enjoy range time, a class here and there, and a match here and there. I'll be lucky if I get into reloading in the next year. I'm 27, blue collar. I want to get the most for my $ as I really don't have much.
My options for a fun range gun/casual match are as Follows:
1. Howa 20" .223 threaded barreled action from Brownells - 400 something dollars+bottom metal and 10 round mag 500ish.
2. Savage Hog Hunter in .223, maybe get CDI bottom metal down the road and have the option to rebarrel myself down the line.
3. Tikka T3 varmint, price would cause me to shot it out of the factory stock for awhile while I save for an aftermarket one.
The Howa and Savage I would put I a B&C target/comp adjustable at 395$.
Plus side is Tikka has the better twist rate.
Would I buy a 700 AACSD in .223? Not sure if they make that, or the Sps Tactical in .223. Neither are appealing to me at all for some reason. Just not guns I would consider buying unless I got an insane deal on.
That's just me though I'm more of a Hobbiest than a lot of guys on here.

 

[devldogs55]

I used to think it was silly to spend $800-$1k on a rifle.

I certainly did as well. My precision shooting journey, if you will, was very linear. To get to the rifle/optic/skill level I have now, I took a predictable and very common route. Also, my skill level is average, that statement was not intended to brag.

I started off with a Remington 700 SPS Tactical with a Vortex Viper HS. I still remember the days of being defensive over that rifle (before I had even shot it) when my friend told me that the Hogue stock sucked. At this point, my knowledge/skill level/equipment was all at the same level approximately. I didn't know shit about precision shooting, and my equipment was mediocre at best. The one thing that was NOT in line with everything else was the expectations I had of my equipment. When I wasn't shooting 1/4 moa with my hand loads, I started the long and frustrating process of finding the weak link in my equipment. The whole time I did that, I made another mistake I see a lot of people make - and never made the assumption that I was the weak link.

So I tossed the Hogue and got an XLR Element. Got a new trigger, and then proceeded to sell my used Vortex HST and try every single Vortex long range scope up to the PST Gen 1. I would buy a new Vortex, and sell my old one until I had literally tried them all. At this point, I wasn't convinced that moving into the category of the Gen 2 Razor would do much for me, plus - I couldn't afford it, which brings up another point. I did this, and I think a lot of other people do this.. I denied that I had sub-par equipment when compared to my expectations because I couldn't afford it.

Then, I had LRI true up the 700 action and toss on a Kreiger barrel. My expectations were so much closer to being realized! I kept the PST on there, and I was consistently hitting sub MOA steel at 800-900 yards with a .308. I'm not sure at what point my skill level and LRI build evened out, but I was finally hitting how I wanted to hit.

The next build I had in mind.. the point of the entire build was to have a build where I was 100% sure that any time something went wrong - it was my fault. I didn't want to second guess my scope, scope mount, blame it on the trigger... I would know every time I pulled the trigger there was no question that I was the problem. Whether that meant that my ballistic solver inputs were wrong, I calculated the wind improperly, or I just still sucked.. I wouldn't ever say to myself "You probably need to get better scope rings."

Maybe I ended up in a different place with my builds than other people.. or maybe I'm here for different reasons. Now that I'm here, I hate that I'm the guy at the range or the match that I used to hate to talk to. Me and my range buddy took out a guy who hunts elk once a year with a $500 .338WM and a <$300 scope. He was extremely disappointed in his rifle's performance, and I told him there was no way his Vortex Diamondback was up to the task. He just didn't believe me.

These are the shooters that are still in Remington's market right now. The guys like I was - the guys that deny that their equipment is shit because they can't afford better.

 

[Ledzep]

Ok, now lets see some proof od these QC issues.

It's a pretty well-known issue that you're lucky to get any primary extraction with a factory 700. I've personally seen 2 canted recoil lugs, and 1 visibly bent barrel. They're not all straight garbage, but I do believe it's a lottery.

I'd argue that the Ruger American (despite the annoying 'zing' from lathe cut marks rubbing) is a better buy, and I'm just waiting to see DBM/stock aftermarket grow. A few options out there already for prefit barrels. I can really see that being the new budget build rifle. I'm not saying they're all perfect, either, but for the money I trust a Ruger barrel to shoot better on average (having owned several samples of both), and it comes with more options (scope rail, threaded muzzle...).

 

[JS624]

I certainly did as well. My precision shooting journey, if you will, was very linear. To get to the rifle/optic/skill level I have now, I took a predictable and very common route. Also, my skill level is average, that statement was not intended to brag.

I started off with a Remington 700 SPS Tactical with a Vortex Viper HS. I still remember the days of being defensive over that rifle (before I had even shot it) when my friend told me that the Hogue stock sucked. At this point, my knowledge/skill level/equipment was all at the same level approximately. I didn't know shit about precision shooting, and my equipment was mediocre at best. The one thing that was NOT in line with everything else was the expectations I had of my equipment. When I wasn't shooting 1/4 moa with my hand loads, I started the long and frustrating process of finding the weak link in my equipment. The whole time I did that, I made another mistake I see a lot of people make - and never made the assumption that I was the weak link.

So I tossed the Hogue and got an XLR Element. Got a new trigger, and then proceeded to sell my used Vortex HST and try every single Vortex long range scope up to the PST Gen 1. I would buy a new Vortex, and sell my old one until I had literally tried them all. At this point, I wasn't convinced that moving into the category of the Gen 2 Razor would do much for me, plus - I couldn't afford it, which brings up another point. I did this, and I think a lot of other people do this.. I denied that I had sub-par equipment when compared to my expectations because I couldn't afford it.

Then, I had LRI true up the 700 action and toss on a Kreiger barrel. My expectations were so much closer to being realized! I kept the PST on there, and I was consistently hitting sub MOA steel at 800-900 yards with a .308. I'm not sure at what point my skill level and LRI build evened out, but I was finally hitting how I wanted to hit.

The next build I had in mind.. the point of the entire build was to have a build where I was 100% sure that any time something went wrong - it was my fault. I didn't want to second guess my scope, scope mount, blame it on the trigger... I would know every time I pulled the trigger there was no question that I was the problem. Whether that meant that my ballistic solver inputs were wrong, I calculated the wind improperly, or I just still sucked.. I wouldn't ever say to myself "You probably need to get better scope rings."

Maybe I ended up in a different place with my builds than other people.. or maybe I'm here for different reasons. Now that I'm here, I hate that I'm the guy at the range or the match that I used to hate to talk to. Me and my range buddy took out a guy who hunts elk once a year with a $500 .338WM and a <$300 scope. He was extremely disappointed in his rifle's performance, and I told him there was no way his Vortex Diamondback was up to the task. He just didn't believe me.

These are the shooters that are still in Remington's market right now. The guys like I was - the guys that deny that their equipment is shit because they can't afford better.

Basically the exact same route I went.

 

[Twinsen]

Most gunsmiths where?

Central Arizona. I know one smith now that will work on something other than a 700. The rest only do 700s. Been looking for years, and calling guys whose numbers I get via word-of-mouth.

My friend with a Tikka can't find anybody, and I can't for my CZ. I was able to find one guy that'll do Winchester.

 

[Twinsen]

The dumbest thing I ever heard was a post on here saying many gunsmiths would only work on a 700. Seriously?

Seriously. Welcome to reality.

 

[308pirate]

Central Arizona. I know one smith now that will work on something other than a 700. The rest only do 700s. Been looking for years, and calling guys whose numbers I get via word-of-mouth.

My friend with a Tikka can't find anybody, and I can't for my CZ. I was able to find one guy that'll do Winchester.

That only proves that true craftsmen are few and far between. And how many of those so-called gunsmiths are nothing more than glorified armorers?

 

[patriot07]

Seriously. Welcome to reality.

Wasn't trying to be rude (although I can see how it came off that way). I just think it's dumb that there are smiths who only work on the 700.

Smiths around here work on Savage and Tikka mostly along with some 700 work. They'd be out of business if they stuck to the 700 and nothing else.

 

[orkan]

If you're expecting the remington quality represented more than 5 years ago and before... yes I think it's a lottery. I do think these things are relative to the expectations however. Once upon a time a guy couldn't go wrong buying a remington. Now, I've witnessed it go wrong myself a lot of times in the last 3 years. Five years ago and before, it was very rare. Various fit/finish issues as well as mechanical issues. This turn-down in quality is a recent thing for them, within the last few years... and it's been sad to see.

Howa and Tikka have replaced remington as the entry level rifle I recommend.

 

[Ledzep]

If you like them, buy the fuckers. It doesn't hurt my feelings. If you want to believe what you believe and discount my experience because you can't or don't want to prove it, it's not my problem. lol

The bent barrel came from Cabelas a short drive up the road to the precision rifle building shop I worked at. We pulled it out of the factory new box. The owner bought it just for the action to be trued. The primary extraction issue is present before any cutting takes place on most of them. It absolutely is a lottery. Go to the gun store, down the line of 700's and see how many have decent primary extraction. Beyond timing of the bolt handle, the geometry is wonky (i.e. bad castings) on the newest models. If there's enough primary extraction for the bolt handle to ever make contact with the cam, it develops a "notch", a little place of localized yielding because the two surfaces don't mate well. Canted recoil lugs affect stock fit. I know I'm not the only one that's seen them... there are worse examples than what I've seen personally, online. Another fun thing to check in factory barrels, is look down the bore, at the throat and see how much deeper it's cut on one side than the other. You'll see a ring present on one side, but not the other.

I've owned 2 M700's personally that I bought brand new. Both shot in the 2-3 MOA range with decent factory ammo. Neither had much primary extraction, one had a ringed chamber that caused extraction problems (otherwise may have been bearable if it had primary extraction).

By contrast, I've owned 2 Ruger Americans (.308, .300 blackout), both shot right around 1-1.5 MOA with quality factory ammo, better with handloads. Primary extraction is handled much better. They came with threaded barrels, picatinny rails, better triggers, and albeit garbage polymer stocks, they were free floated, and free floated enough to stay free floating under normal bipod shooting. I paid $359 and $415 for them. I paid $450-550 for the Remingtons.

A family member has several M700's from the 70's through the 90's. THEY are a better rifle than current production and the Ruger American. Precision still might not be there, but fit/finish is way ahead. I've built/handled/inspected/whatever hundreds of these rifles. From 1948-1963 in the 721/722's, then 1963 onward to present. I've seen examples of pretty much every "generation". The newer stuff slouches on fit/finish hard. The same can be seen in model 870's (ringed chambers, MIM'ed extractors, etc.). They're cheaper, but certainly not the same gun they used to be.

I've seen examples that shoot very well. I've seen enough of them with issues that there's no way I just order a M700 out of a catalog sight-unseen, though. I might cherry pick one if everything checks out, but otherwise I expect to need a time/tig at least. A new barrel is in the cards if I really want it to shoot. I think the Ruger is a better gamble for less money, and Tikka T3's are hands down a better option for a little more (or the same, depending on what model 700) money. The only appeal to the M700 for me is the aftermarket if I'm building the rifle from the action up.

I don't think they're going anywhere soon. Really all they need is a new barrel and a time/TIG job and they're shooters (And a trigger if you don't like the factory one-- most don't) but I think you'll see a lot of competition in the market from other offerings. In other words, the M700 might not remain the "go-to" precision rifle build action going forward.

 

[WATERWALKER]

I own a few 700s. One is a custom rig that shoots really well. I’ve had zero problems in terms of accuracy, reliability, repeatability or anything else. I also have a Sendero (.300 WM), circa 2003 that shoots really well. I don’t shoot it much these days because I spend most of my time shooting the custom SA or M4 & pistols.

I originally purchased the Sendero as a hunting gun. I’d planned to send it off to a builder for a build eventually, but it shoots so well I don’t see the point. Once the barrel is toast I’m sure that’ll be in the cards. On the other hand, since I really don’t shoot it much I’ve thought about selling it to pick up something I’ll shoot more. The conundrum is this; I’m not doing a lot of hunting these days & it shoots well enough that I’m not likely to find another stock gun to replace it in the future w/ out spending a bunch of scratch. So, for the time being I’ll just hold onto it.

As for factory ammo, it hasn’t seen much at all. A small amount of FGMM, and the rest gas been a diet of handloads. The gun shoots FGMM MOA easily, & handloads anywhere from 1/2” to 1”generally. I’ve shot 1/4” groups but it’s not typical. Nor am I telling anyone that I shoot 1/4” groups everyday anyway. But, it does shoot very well for a stock gun.

 

[tylerw02]

I hate to revive an old thread, but Remington did indeed go bankrupt again.

Just before, I decided to pull the trigger on a 6.5 Creedmoor AAC-SD. It was marked $425 on clearance and Remington was offering a $100 rebate. I figured for $325, the action alone was worth that, plus the take-off stocks seem to sell. I shot it with some loads developed for my CTR. Headspace was tight, but they did chamber. Surprisingly, the throat worked well with Berger Hybrid. It shot 1/2 MOA with my handloads.

I threw it into an H-S take-off I had laying around, and it improved into a sub 1/2 MOA gun. I've had it a couple years now and the performance seems to be consistent. It is even timed properly. Eventually, I'll build it into something but its performing well. This would have been out of the last batch of rifles before production stopped. I was surprised it was a GOOD gun. A friend of mine also bought one and didn't fare so well. I'll leave it at that.

Now that production has resumed with new ownership, has anything changed? I'm seeing $450 ADLs, but very little else. Prices on higher-end used rifles are through the roof. I've already heard complaints on the new production rifles, but I'm not sure how credible they are. Is Remington "back" or is this going to be a final gasp from a dead brand?

 

[Wannashootit]

No idea WTF is going on with Remington Arms.
They supposedly resumed 870 shotgun production earlier this year, but I don't see them anywhere. Could be they're not being manufactured, or that they are and just sold out as soon as available.

According to the article below published in May, they said they were going to have M700's on the shelf "well before hunting season" this year.
Didn't happen.
WTF do I know, but if they were cranking out M700 receivers they'd be selling them as fast as they could make them. All the tooling in place, I don't get why the lines haven't been cranked back up in this hot market. Losing countless millions of dollars in potential sales while every other manufacturer is cranking shit out as fast as they can.

Exclusive: Remington's New Owners Answer Our Questions

What is going on with Remington? We have the answers in an exclusive interview about the newest Remington 870, Model 700, 1100, VersaMax, and much more.

www.fieldandstream.com

 

[Hobo Hilton]

A bit of history on "who got what" at the Fire Sale

Bankrupt Remington Sold Off: Here Are The Winners

Bankrupt gunmaker Remington has been parted out and sold. See where Marlin, DPMS, Bushmaster, Tapco, and more ended up.

www.pewpewtactical.com

 

[tylerw02]

I have noticed some vendors are getting 700 recievers for sale. Seems odd when there are no guns to be found.

 

[roostercogburn98]

I have noticed some vendors are getting 700 recievers for sale. Seems odd when there are no guns to be found.

Surplus unbuilt parts being sold off to cover bankruptcy costs?

 

[tylerw02]

Rooster, a new company bought them, so I don't really know, but the new CEO of REM ARMS as they are called said he would have guns on the shelf before hunting season and that hasn't panned out yet. Perhaps recouping their investment?

 

[Lost_Phil]

Surplus unbuilt parts being sold off to cover bankruptcy costs?

Buds Gun Shop had a flyer up a few weeks ago stating that they are now getting new Remingtion receivers form the new owners. The prices have been high in my opinion for them, 400+ for a short action with a 308 bolt face.

 

[SQ54]

There are rifles available and they have been available since at least August. I examined one in a local store and it was excellent. I’ve owned/shot dozens of them that ranged from the 1960’s to the present day. None of them were “rough” in any way. All would shoot less than MOA right out of the box, usually with Remington Corelokt ammo. I have never seen a bent barrel or a bad chamber. Having made my living as a machinist in my younger days, I think I know what I’m looking at.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Rooster, a new company bought them, so I don't really know, but the new CEO of REM ARMS as they are called said he would have guns on the shelf before hunting season and that hasn't panned out yet. Perhaps recouping their investment?

Buds Gun Shop had a flyer up a few weeks ago stating that they are now getting new Remingtion receivers form the new owners. The prices have been high in my opinion for them, 400+ for a short action with a 308 bolt face.

I did read where they said they had wanted to take Remington back to being the iconic rifle it had started. Maybe they will turn things around from the spotty QC that had become rem in the last 10 years or so. Only time will tell, I haven’t looked for a modern production rifle in a long time, so I haven’t seen or looked for one. I will have to keep my eyes open.

as for prices on receivers, the last one I picked up from sportsouth was 289 for a SA, 223 bolt face. That was several years ago though.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

My first "long range" rifle was a 700 Varmint, in 1987.
It was a beauty.
I would love to see Remington back to it's former glory.
It'll be tough though, with very good rifles out there, like Tikka, etc.

 

[308pirate]

All the tooling in place, I don't get why the lines haven't been cranked back up in this hot market. Losing countless millions of dollars in potential sales while every other manufacturer is cranking shit out as fast as they can.

If this new "REM ARMS" is at all interested in making rifles of acceptable quality, they probably found that the entire mfg system (tooling, machinery, inspection jigs and equipment, training, SOPs, etc) were seriously defective and in need of upgrading.

When your product quality sucks, you just can't fire up the ol machine to "crank out shit as fast as they can" and expect anything better. That's not how it works.