The SIG 716I TREAD .308 may be the best AR-308 / AR-10 type battle rifle for the money.

[Annex Defense]

I was really interested in the sig piston 716 a couple years back and then one day it no longer existed. Poof...

You dodged a bullet; mine never ran right and I'm definitely not alone. Sig's support was terrible about it, too.

I rolled the dice a second time with the "legacy" MCX and it's probably my favorite rifle and the first one I'd grab out of the safe if I could only take one with me for the rest of my life; they later issued the recall (probably preemptively.....shoutout to that nerd NutNFancy) and they were absolutely fantastic to deal with. They got me a label, a truck pickup, a free Geissele trigger (lol wtf right?), free sling and swag, and a $75 gift certificate to the Sig store....and they turned it around in a week.

I'm not sure what changed at Sig in terms of product design since the first iteration of the 716 to now; the P365, P320, MCX / Virtus, and now Cross are pretty "risky" projects that push the envelope for a massive company like Sig. I know they've had their hiccups and the lack of support across generations (MPX and Virtus vs. Legacy come to mind), but they are taking huge strides in my opinion, and their contract awards seem to validate their progress.

 

[Vivacious Stallion]

You dodged a bullet; mine never ran right and I'm definitely not alone. Sig's support was terrible about it, too.

I rolled the dice a second time with the "legacy" MCX and it's probably my favorite rifle and the first one I'd grab out of the safe if I could only take one with me for the rest of my life; they later issued the recall (probably preemptively.....shoutout to that nerd NutNFancy) and they were absolutely fantastic to deal with. They got me a label, a truck pickup, a free Geissele trigger (lol wtf right?), free sling and swag, and a $75 gift certificate to the Sig store....and they turned it around in a week.

I'm not sure what changed at Sig in terms of product design since the first iteration of the 716 to now; the P365, P320, MCX / Virtus, and now Cross are pretty "risky" projects that push the envelope for a massive company like Sig. I know they've had their hiccups and the lack of support across generations (MPX and Virtus vs. Legacy come to mind), but they are taking huge strides in my opinion, and their contract awards seem to validate their progress.

Thats pretty interesting. I ended up selling my soul to the church of the LMT MWS instead after shortly owning a Desert Tech MDRX (shudders) for my 308 gas gun needs/wants.

That is pretty awesome service on your MCX, who gives away free geisseles?! I've been very impressed with the Virtus rifles and plan on picking up a P365 xl this weekend when I'm back in my home state. However, it does appear that Sig relegates some product lines to the bin fairly quickly, such as the mid length MPX configurations and others. Maybe it was just better to consolidate some of their product lines.

 

[sinister]

A big company like SIG can go through boat-loads of small-run beta guns that would break small companies.

 

[Annex Defense]

Thats pretty interesting. I ended up selling my soul to the church of the LMT MWS instead after shortly owning a Desert Tech MDRX (shudders) for my 308 gas gun needs/wants.

That is pretty awesome service on your MCX, who gives away free geisseles?! I've been very impressed with the Virtus rifles and plan on picking up a P365 xl this weekend when I'm back in my home state. However, it does appear that Sig relegates some product lines to the bin fairly quickly, such as the mid length MPX configurations and others. Maybe it was just better to consolidate some of their product lines.

MWS is rock solid, it's the direction I should have went before going full DIY with a Mega MATEN.

I just picked up a Desert Tech SRS-A1 for a screaming deal, and coming from a mechanical design / product engineering background......some of DT's choices are.....unique. The gun does shoot remarkably well though, the Lothar-Walther barrels can stack em. The form factor is wonderful but I'll see about reliability. I can't say I'd take the plunge on a gas-gun (especially 308!) from Desert Tech after owning one of their bolt guns, you're braver than me

Sig ended up burning me pretty good on the "Legacy" MCX by promptly switching over to the Virtus platform, so I'm out of luck with easy to find barrel assemblies, bolts and rails. You can still find some stuff (like the bolt itself) but the rest is sparse to say the least.

The large frame gun I really wanted was the MCX-MR, which I think is on the back-burner as they fulfill the 70k units of 716i to the Indian Army. Bartlien barrel (Probably would have never went on a production gun), side charging / no reciprocating, folding stock with adjustable cheek / LOP, monolithic receiver, and all the modularized steel parts for the heavy-wear portions of the receivers.

 

[GUNNER10]

MWS is rock solid, it's the direction I should have went before going full DIY with a Mega MATEN.

I just picked up a Desert Tech SRS-A1 for a screaming deal, and coming from a mechanical design / product engineering background......some of DT's choices are.....unique. The gun does shoot remarkably well though, the Lothar-Walther barrels can stack em. The form factor is wonderful but I'll see about reliability. I can't say I'd take the plunge on a gas-gun (especially 308!) from Desert Tech after owning one of their bolt guns, you're braver than me

Sig ended up burning me pretty good on the "Legacy" MCX by promptly switching over to the Virtus platform, so I'm out of luck with easy to find barrel assemblies, bolts and rails. You can still find some stuff (like the bolt itself) but the rest is sparse to say the least.

The large frame gun I really wanted was the MCX-MR, which I think is on the back-burner as they fulfill the 70k units of 716i to the Indian Army. Bartlien barrel (Probably would have never went on a production gun), side charging / no reciprocating, folding stock with adjustable cheek / LOP, monolithic receiver, and all the modularized steel parts for the heavy-wear portions of the receivers.

Yeah, I have had a good amount of 308 gas guns and in addition to my MWS, I have a SR25 and Scar 17, The MWS is really the best option at this time, it just works well in so many situations. Slap a light weight 13.5 on it with an RDS and do carbine stuff, or drop a 6.5 and bang steel at 1200. Its not the lightest option available but its just works.

The MCX-MR/NGSW is pretty interesting but I think that Sig is going to have the opposite problem that FN has. Where FN has well thought out designs, they don't really support their platform commercially, for example there is no such thing as a accuracy barrel for a 17 or a carbine/lightweight barrel for a 20.

Sig will end up releasing the MCX-MR, in 308 an have barrel kits in 277 fury. These barrels will have typical Sig QC and have wildly different results and at 4 months of production, will stop production to solve the chamber/gassing issues with the .277 Fury. At around months 14 to 18, unannounced Sig will start sell 6.5cm barrels on their site in at least a half dozen configurations. At around 24 months sig will announce that the .277 was dumb and they are no longer making it. People will complain which Sig will ask them to stop talking like a fag.

Don't get me wrong, I like Sig, and I think they have some great concept. Its just that execution has never really been high on Sigs priority list.

 

[BCP]

My only bitch would be that sig makes rifles for a little while and then quits. So if you need a proprietary bolt or charging handle or something you are fucked. Like when I was looking for a 556R and they suddenly quit making em. WTF?

 

[sinister]

If KAC does it it's innovation. Anyone else does it and it's screwing the customer.

 

[Laskey0104]

The piston 716 DMR2 in 6.5 is great! Truly accurate for a gas gun with an 18in barrel

 

[GUNNER10]

If KAC does it it's innovation. Anyone else does it and it's screwing the customer.

In Kac's defense, If Kac had the same quality control and failure rates as Sig they too would also be screwing their customer. I would wager a Pmag that as soon as the MCX-M/Spear is unfucked, they discontinue the 716i tread with 12 months

 

[RUTGERS95]

If KAC does it it's innovation. Anyone else does it and it's screwing the customer.

that's true and it's not like KAC hasn't had their issues. The reason you don't see the same level of vitrol is due to pyschological price reinforcement. When you spend a greater sum of money, you believe or are conditioned to believe its' better. The science around this is amazing really and has driven marketing depts for the last 15yrs.
KAC, FN, LMT are all at the top and for good reason but it's not like they are perfect. Everyone else should be a pure value play.

 

[GLD1980]

In Kac's defense, If Kac had the same quality control and failure rates as Sig they too would also be screwing their customer. I would wager a Pmag that as soon as the MCX-M/Spear is unfucked, they discontinue the 716i tread with 12 months

@GUNNER10

You may be 100% right! Nothing is guaranteed and I think we got that part. Besides, I think many won't mind the coming to market of the NGSW-R MCX SPEAR even if we get snubbed in the future. Looks to be one outstanding rifle.

With India purchasing 144,000 units, there is a support contract and we should have access to parts for around a decade maybe longer. I still get parts and support for my 556R so frankly I'm growing weary of this complaint! Now there Q/C issues have plagued some and that sucks but everybody has them, including KAC.
SIG may have more issues with Q/C but doesn't SIG make more guns period? That would explain why we hear of them more but the percentage across the years work is probably the same as other quality manufacturers. The main problem within SIG is they're lacking in the customer service department when it comes to servicing people's issues and knowing how to make them right.

In regards to the 716I rifle, are owners having issues you are aware of?

 

[madppcs]

So how much do you have invested in the rifle as it sits now??? Alot of comparing price range, but the first thing you did after buying a rifle is buy upgrades. Compare your final price to the other rifles and I think itll be a fair comparison.

People love to brag on Glock being the ultimate reliability and price, but the first thing they do is swap out all that reliability and drive the cost up.

 

[GLD1980]

So how much do you have invested in the rifle as it sits now??? Alot of comparing price range, but the first thing you did after buying a rifle is buy upgrades. Compare your final price to the other rifles and I think itll be a fair comparison.

People love to brag on Glock being the ultimate reliability and price, but the first thing they do is swap out all that reliability and drive the cost up.

I have $2902.00 in my rifle with another $463 in mags, but I don't understand how your comparing when you would add optics, mounts, BUIS, handstops or vertical grips, bipods, etc... to all the rifles were comparing. The only upgrade needed by the SIG716I internally was the Ambidextrous Charging Handle for $65 and the JP Enterprises AR-15 Enhanced Ignition Reliability Spring Kit with Red Hammer Spring $15. You can even count my SureFire ProComp 7.62 Muzzle Brake $65, add that to the cost of the rifle after tax and transfer in WA state $1612 and I'm at $1757. This rifle doesn't need a bunch of changes it is a shooter as is. Nothing I upgraded sans the trigger is needed to compete against other rifle at its price or at higher price ranges.

What are we comparing?

 

[madppcs]

What parts on your rifle are still factory? Besides the optic and mount...

 

[BCP]

The one I handled locally didn't need anything tbh. The stock and grip are serviceable and it had a 2 stage trigger which felt OK. I've been looking at a predatar 308 but if that doesn't work out I'll buy the sig.

 

[GLD1980]

What parts on your rifle are still factory? Besides the optic and mount...

The complete upper (upper receiver, BCG, Barrel, Handguard) except Ambi Charging Handle which isn't necessary.
The complete lower to include the reciever extension tube and buffer assembly except the JP Enhanced Ignition Reliability Spring kit. It featured a nice pistol grip for a stock rifle but I changed the pistol grip for my preferred ergonomics but it wasn't needed honestly. The Stock included was the MOE SL-K which for a DMR wasn't my first choice so I swapped it with a VLTOR EMOD from an M1A VLTOR M1-S chassis I have. In the end it all worked out.

Seriously the only reason I started this thread is because once in a while a manufacturer gets it right. The AR-308/AR-10 is a complicated beast to make tic like a quality time piece and I felt fortunate to own one. It's a rare occasion to own a firearm you feel happy to own and receive joy from. Even though it's a SIG and even though there are better this is the new Point of Diminishing Returns. If they were to make this more modular for various needs and applications Knights, LMT, LaRue, DD, etc... will all be losing more business cept for the brand whores who I actually respect. If you have the money buy whatever the fuck you want! For those like me that need to buy the best quality for the best price, look no further than the SIG 716I.

 

[madppcs]

I'm glad to hear you got a rifle you like & it works well for you.
No need really to be shoving a bunch of "reviews" and marketing fluff in your post.

In their price point, SIG makes decent factory AR platform rifles.

As to the rest, save posting the YouTube B.S. "reviews" for some other site.

I agree with this post. I might have gotten the wrong view on his intentions. What came across immediately was (I read that India bought a bunch of these BATTLE RIFLES and I watched a bunch of videos from Youtube influencers, so I bought one and its the best)
Can you go Assaulting with a Battle Rifle?

Good on the OP for getting his first 308 AR10, and I hope you enjoy it for years to come.

 

[GLD1980]

I agree with this post. I might have gotten the wrong view on his intentions. What came across immediately was (I read that India bought a bunch of these BATTLE RIFLES and I watched a bunch of videos from Youtube influencers, so I bought one and its the best)
Can you go Assaulting with a Battle Rifle?

Good on the OP for getting his first 308 AR10, and I hope you enjoy it for years to come.

Hahaha, sorry for coming off like a douche bag.
It is my first 7.62x51 AR-308/ AR-10 type rifle and I have been researching for years. I was going to invest in an OBR or get a Aero but I wasn't quite sold on the price (OBR), or the reliability of function if not built properly with the others. It seemed the field was littered with pet peeves here and there from users. When the 716I came out and at its low price point it seemed the best value available under 2k. I don't see what you get for double or triple the price.
Maybe I'm missing something but this was not intended to be a brag post or a novice post, more of an FYI there's a new good deal out there.

 

[GUNNER10]

@GUNNER10

You may be 100% right! Nothing is guaranteed and I think we got that part. Besides, I think many won't mind the coming to market of the NGSW-R MCX SPEAR even if we get snubbed in the future. Looks to be one outstanding rifle.

With India purchasing 144,000 units, there is a support contract and we should have access to parts for around a decade maybe longer. I still get parts and support for my 556R so frankly I'm growing weary of this complaint! Now there Q/C issues have plagued some and that sucks but everybody has them, including KAC.
SIG may have more issues with Q/C but doesn't SIG make more guns period? That would explain why we hear of them more but the percentage across the years work is probably the same as other quality manufacturers. The main problem within SIG is they're lacking in the customer service department when it comes to servicing people's issues and knowing how to make them right.

In regards to the 716I rifle, are owners having issues you are aware of?

Sig does put out a ton of product and I think that may be one of the contributing factors in their QC issues, but it just seems like after an issue like the drop failures on the 320 are cleared up, you get a big recall on the Sig Cross rifles.

As somebody who owns a scar, who is also not the rifles biggest fan, the large frame MCX interest me. While not a bad rifle in any respects of the word, its a dumb rifle, with a shitty stock, no accuracy, long range barrels for the 17 or field barrels for the 20 with a tapco trigger that may grenade your carrier if you put any of the most common cans on it. Its reliable, marginally accuracte, but dumb. vintage 2009

Sig over hear is striving to be living in 2041, in 2021, they are the type of guy that drives to work on autopilot, playing a phone game while youtube playing minimized in corner all while drinking a milkshake. Mr sig should be ok but we all know he is going to eat that milkshake one way or another.

I think that there is space for both philosophy's to exist, because ultimately I think it moves the industry forward.

I like sig and despite the shit show that was the 320 program, I picked up one and like it.

 

[GUNNER10]

Hahaha, sorry for coming off like a douche bag.
It is my first 7.62x51 AR-308/ AR-10 type rifle and I have been researching for years. I was going to invest in an OBR or get a Aero but I wasn't quite sold on the price (OBR), or the reliability of function if not built properly with the others. It seemed the field was littered with pet peeves here and there from users. When the 716I came out and at its low price point it seemed the best value available under 2k. I don't see what you get for double or triple the price.
Maybe I'm missing something but this was not intended to be a brag post or a novice post, more of an FYI there's a new good deal out there.

I think these types of post are awesome, everybody benefits from real word reports. If stuff works it

 

[GLD1980]

I think these types of post are awesome, everybody benefits from real word reports. If stuff works it

Thanks @Gunner

It's funny you mentioned the 320 and Cross issues. I really like the idea behind the Cross and will probably wait a year for the kinks to be worked out and pick one up. SIG does seem to have issues with new innovations coming to market prematurely. I don't know if it's laziness or the cost of innovation but on a serious note SIG North America has repaired every issue I've ever had with there products whether they caused it or the issues I've caused too.

 

[GUNNER10]

Thanks @Gunner

It's funny you mentioned the 320 and Cross issues. I really like the idea behind the Cross and will probably wait a year for the kinks to be worked out and pick one up. SIG does seem to have issues with new innovations coming to market prematurely. I don't know if it's laziness or the cost of innovation but on a serious note SIG North America has repaired every issue I've ever had with there products whether they caused it or the issues I've caused too.

I don't know man. Sig is just weird at the end of the day.

I really like do like the ideas behind most of their stuff. I think Sigs biggest issues is corporate ADHD, They come out with a solid, AR15/AR18 hybrid in the MPX/MCX lines, there are some teething issues but fast forward a few years, from most accounts, both are solid performers that have gained adoption. Awesome. Lets build off that.

So instead of refining the MCX by say, releasing 12.5,14.5, 556 or 6.8 barrels or what ever really, Sig goes out, waste engineering and machine time to troll kevin brittingham and only ends up creating more sig memes.

Smooth move Exlacs...

Oh and During this time, Sig also decided that they are now an optics company with most of its lineup comprised of Chinese shit.

Sig states on the MCX site "Configurable in over 500 configurations" Come on guys, you have two 300 barrel options and tree 556 options, of which one is retarded. Sig is a gun company that only has 3 barrels on its flagship Carbine but they list over 25 different optics. All of Sig other endeavors ends up taking up bandwidth away from the only shit people really care about. For years, Sig/San Swiss was legendary with essentially two products, One the 22X series, and second was the 55X series. Fast forwards today, and got damn... Shopping at Sig is literally like going to walmart, just low grade junk everywhere with a smidgen of Samsung and Apple electronics

 

[Jsp556]

EuroOptic has these in stock for $1399.

Hopefully sig continues to support and develope the product.

 

[RUTGERS95]

LMT MWS Defender for 2300 is out there

 

[Praetorian_6]

I went with an AP M5 and an M5E1. I am a Sig fan, too, and own a P238, P938, P320, and got my step dad a Sig 357 revolver. When/if the Sig becomes the industry standard instead of just another highly proprietary and expensive AR10 variant, I will consider a swap. The rifle looks nice, but I will own a highly proprietary, high-end AR10 in the form of an SR-25. I doubt the Sig will be its equal, and on the cheaper end, the ease of finding parts for an M5 will also be hard to match for the foreseeable future. Where does the Sig fit in my arsenal?

Now, Sig has an optic contract with the US Army, and the aforementioned Indian Army contract with 716, so I'll be interested to see what develops. Look no further, though? Not sure about that.

 

[BCP]

I wouldn't call the sig highly proprietary or expensive since it's 1400 bucks retail.

 

[RUTGERS95]

I wouldn't call the sig highly proprietary or expensive since it's 1400 bucks retail.

s&w now under 1k, m5 at 1k, mkt is turning so at 40% more, fk yeah it's expensive. nice rifle but I still stick to the AP here. If you are not going KAC or LMT, go with value, ability to swap parts/customization and as little prop as possible. imho

 

[Praetorian_6]

I wouldn't call the sig highly proprietary or expensive since it's 1400 bucks retail.

That's not as expensive as I thought when the fella said he had $2.9k in his. So, I can walk that part back. My M5E1 came in at less than $1.1k complete sans optic. Not sure what they are, now.

But highly proprietary is fair. The charging handle, BCG are, for sure. The piston variant obviously is, etc... I'm sure that's not all, but that's enough. Do you guys know if the barrels and barrel nut are? Again, this is the major hang up for me, and why I won'tconsider the gun. If/when Sig becomes the market standard, count me in... Of course, by then, I'll have to relook at how the other MFRs changed to accommodate the new design. I don't expect that to happen, but I am open minded.

Ps. I found a thread the OP linked in another thread on another site: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1376750

While I am pretty handy, I'm not a fan of drilling and machining on LR308 barrels to make them compatible. If I'm inclined to take it to a proper gunsmith rather than F'ing it up myself, it defeats the purpose of having something I know I'll be able to find parts for in SHTF scenarios. I also failed to point out the lower receiver's incompatibility with any other uppers. Wow, that'sa big one! I'm sure the tradeoff is weight savings and an improved gas system and what not, but that's the end of any non-prop assertion for me, as at this point I'm not even sure of parts that are compatible. Trigger assembly, I hope? So, I'm not sure how one could consider it anything but a very proprietary weapon.

 

[BCP]

Yeah proprietary is fair, it's still cheap though. They were 1099 before the election freakout.

 

[sinister]

Lots of static in this thread.

Bottom line for this rifle:

India bought 144,000 base 7.62 NATO rifles for their foot infantry, NOT their Commando/Special Forces. It replaces FALs, AKs, and domestic INSAS rifles. I am only guessing, but parts will probably be available for at least ten years.

It's got a direct impingement rifle-length gas system, and will shoot issue NATO Ball ammo (probably a 147 or 150 grain bullet) in a free-floated barrel. It most probably won't be scoped.

You can generally buy one in the states, today, for $1300. The typical American can't/won't leave things unmodified before adding all kinds of shit to it.

What other manufacturer (worldwide) currently produces a base 7.62mm battle rifle adopted by 48 mechanized and 30 light infantry battalions (not in a DM or sniper role)?

Currently deployed by Snuffies on the Line of Control between India and Pakistan and the India-China border:

 

[Ravenworks]

I don't know man. Sig is just weird at the end of the day.

I really like do like the ideas behind most of their stuff. I think Sigs biggest issues is corporate ADHD, They come out with a solid, AR15/AR18 hybrid in the MPX/MCX lines, there are some teething issues but fast forward a few years, from most accounts, both are solid performers that have gained adoption. Awesome. Lets build off that.

So instead of refining the MCX by say, releasing 12.5,14.5, 556 or 6.8 barrels or what ever really, Sig goes out, waste engineering and machine time to troll kevin brittingham and only ends up creating more sig memes.

Smooth move Exlacs...

Oh and During this time, Sig also decided that they are now an optics company with most of its lineup comprised of Chinese shit.

Sig states on the MCX site "Configurable in over 500 configurations" Come on guys, you have two 300 barrel options and tree 556 options, of which one is retarded. Sig is a gun company that only has 3 barrels on its flagship Carbine but they list over 25 different optics. All of Sig other endeavors ends up taking up bandwidth away from the only shit people really care about. For years, Sig/San Swiss was legendary with essentially two products, One the 22X series, and second was the 55X series. Fast forwards today, and got damn... Shopping at Sig is literally like going to walmart, just low grade junk everywhere with a smidgen of Samsung and Apple electronics

Sig use to be the gold standard the world over, unfortunately they took up the Harley Davidson business model.

OP, I understand this is your first large AR platform rifle.
With that if it works for you great and I am happy.
I think once you accumulate a few years of experience with this platform you'll understand some of the views posted in your thread.
My advice to you if you plan on keeping this rifle would be to stock up on the proprietary consumable parts.
If you think their support is bad it's really going to suck when you need a simple parts.
Sig is not the only company with bad support, go spend $2,500 on a FN and need something.
I can take any receiver set with a Criterion barrel and a nice trigger and run circles around anything Sig has to offer in a gas gun.
Then when I get bored I can simply change the upper to another cartridge I desire.
I'm not bashing your gun I'm trying to make you understand that there are other options out there.

 

[GLD1980]

LMT MWS Defender for 2300 is out there

Where?

s&w now under 1k, m5 at 1k, mkt is turning so at 40% more, fk yeah it's expensive. nice rifle but I still stick to the AP here. If you are not going KAC or LMT, go with value, ability to swap parts/customization and as little prop as possible. imho

Are these readily available at those prices now because they haven't been for quite a while. I did look at the Aero and the S&W but I just wasn't sold. The KAC isnt for me and the LMT I want is the L129A1 and its priced a little more than I feel I should have to spend for quality but I will own one soon I hope.
I paid $1429 in February of this year for my SIG716I, which was an inflated COVID-19 price for a gun that I believe is better built and will outperform both the Aero & S&W OEM offerings. I completly agree it's a major plus to have the ability to upgrade readily and easily to elevate from base offerings. The compatibility with other manufacturers parts and being modular will definitely make your gun a better multi-role gun but then where are you on price?
As originally stated I believe the SIG currently offers the most gun for the least amount in the AR-308/ AR-10 field from an OEM in the complete gun category. It's just an opinion I wanted to share with the others. Is it an SR-25 or an LMT? At the moment it lacks modularity and proven combat field reliability data to back its abilities but soon it may get there. The SIG 716I defintely offers shooters precision and accuracy with match loads and reliability with combat loads of various types and weights of .308 & 7.62 NATO.
One thing we should all be able to agree upon is, that's not the case for all rifles that have tried to establish themselves in the AR-308/ AR-10 market. Many just can't quite perform or are ammo sensitive, or strictly precision comp rifles.
From studying over the years it seems few OEM's offer an all around solid rifle and the ones that do expect a high premium. In fact the trend has caused more enthusiasts to attempt building in hopes of striking gold, but only few truly succeed.
I don't build but I probably should but I did do my research and there's a reason I invested in the SIG 716I over others and it was because in its 16" offering with just an ambidextrous charging handle and some JP springs, I feel my rifle can run against or fight against the competition at any level out to about 600-800m depending on the shooter. I am still training to become a more precise shooter but this rifle is making the road an easy one to travel for learning. Those considering the SIG 716I an entry level rifle I think your wrong.
But hey it's just my opinion.

 

[Praetorian_6]

Are these readily available at those prices now because they haven't been for quite a while.

So, my M5 was 1,039.47 after a 10% discount. That's before tax. That included an upgraded nitride BCG, as opposed to the cheaper phosphate BCG. However, it did not include CH or stock. This purchase took place 9OCT20.

Subsequently, in Feb, I paid the same price for 2 nitride BCGs. In March, I paid the same price ($540 each after discounts) for 2 M5E1 uppers, and I paid $427, roughly $100 more, for a pistol-braced M5 lower, because I had other stocks, and it was the only lower available. I flipped the SBA3 to a buddy who runs a gun shop for $80, which again brought my M5E1 down to almost the same price as the first Oddly, it doesn't look like they charged tax on these, possibly because I ordered them online. I think my basic CH was $20. I can show those receipts too if interested, but each is separate. So, I figured it wasn't worth posting 3 additional pics. Looks like AP maintained pricing through the pandemic! Good dudes.

 

[GLD1980]

@Praetorian_6

Aero Precision is a great company 30min away from where I live. I'm not trashing Aero Precision or their rifles. They're great and amazingly priced. I could go on about Aero Precision but this thread is about the SIG 716I and the M5 is not the 716I IMO, that's all.

Just because the Company is great and the prices are amazing doesn't mean the rifle is better. Same can be said about many of the more expensive rifles, just because they cost more doesn't mean there better.

Currently I believe the LMT MWS to be the point of diminishing returns. If the SIG 716I develops well and builds a strong track record, and becomes a modular platform the LMT will have competition.

 

[sinister]

Both sides have good points about their 7.62 self-loader choices.

The SIG is a turn-key pay-your-money / outfit-your-army rifle. No requirement for an acquisition agency to scour the interwebz to configure it with world-class barrel and accessories. I have made several rifles from my base favorite parts and components from Armalite, Geissele, GG&G, SLR, and a few other manufacturers, but that's not the point.

An Army could go broke trying to outfit all their privates/jundis with KAC or LMT rifles. HK is making bank throughout Europe and NATO offering the 417 where there are no tariffs between EU nations ... but HK (more properly the German government) doesn't support overseas export.

Soooo ... back to the point -- SIG offers a complete base 7.62 battle rifle ready for line privates to add bullets and go forth. Who else does?

One of the requirements for some contracts is to show-proof of record delivering export weapons and sustainment over time. While I like Aero (and built a 7.62 on one of their receivers) I'm not sure they've bid or delivered complete weapon sets to any major export customer. It's not a knock on their quality, but one of the economic rules of international export is small companies seldom break-even when competing against larger companies because of the overhead required (exporting permits, end-user certificates, freight and delivery fees, etc.).

A US defense requirement is anything sold to Uncle Sam can NOT be sold to a civil or export customer for less than what Uncle pays. That might actually be a drag on a KAC bid.

 

[BCP]

So, my M5 was 1,039.47 after a 10% discount.

That's what the sigs were going for prior to all this election nonsense too, the sig is the better rifle out of the box though (unless they fall apart in the hands of the indians which is always possible).

 

[Ravenworks]

@Praetorian_6

Currently I believe the LMT MWS to be the point of diminishing returns. If the SIG 716I develops well and builds a strong track record, and becomes a modular platform the LMT will have cocompetition.

I could respect your view more if you educated yourself and was more honest because Sig will never be in the same category as top teir weapon manufacturers.

Big difference between an ok gun versus a great gun and there's a reason for that, it's not just a name.

 

[sinister]

Big difference between an ok gun versus a great gun and there's a reason for that, it's not just a name.

Very true -- but few nations outfit themselves with GREAT guns. Even SOCOM had to design a platform-unique after-market set (SOPMOD I and II) -- and that's just for special forces, not the line infantry doggie.

 

[Praetorian_6]

@Praetorian_6

Aero Precision is a great company 30min away from where I live. I'm not trashing Aero Precision or their rifles.

Yeah, man. I didn't take it that way at all. I just saw an honest question that I have relatively recent data points to share in answer to it.

 

[loveha]

Wasn't the Indian army contract for the Sig 716 G2 variant? The gas piston driven model?

 

[GLD1980]

I could respect your view more if you educated yourself and was more honest because Sig will never be in the same category as top teir weapon manufacturers.

Big difference between an ok gun versus a great gun and there's a reason for that, it's not just a name.

The quality and performance for a foundation is there and there but SIG is there own worst enemy. Will they take the platform seriously? I doubt it. Will they listen to customers? No. Then again they just might. With SIG you will never know so many hope for the worst based off the past. They deserve that outlook from past and present dealings I guess.

Unless there is something I am missing. What does the LMT, KAC, H&K, etc.... offer that the SIG will never be able to offer in your opinion? Please educate me here because this is like a 2-4k question that many of us cannot find a clear difference with that would allow something to literally cost that much more?

 

[GLD1980]

Wasn't the Indian army contract for the Sig 716 G2 variant? The gas piston driven model?

No they needed to trim just cost so SIG built them a D.I. SIG 716I.

 

[Praetorian_6]

The sig is the better rifle out of the box though.

Maybe so. I don't know. "Better" means different things to different people. It's lighter. That's better. Here's some things I'd like data on:
- Is it more precise? I've seen comments that suggest it's a 1.5 MOA rifle, while the AP, or rather BA, has a 1MOA guarantee. That doesn't mean that I believe them until I see or do some independent testing.
- Is it more durable? I've heard BA barrels don't last long. Guys have said they've worn out barrels in ~4k rounds. If true, that sucks. I will get that many rounds through mine in a few years. Will report back. No idea on the 716.
- Is it more reliable in cycling rounds. So far, I had 1 FTF in 400 rnds, and it came from a batch of defects I'd separated from dented reloaded rounds from American Marksman. It actually cycled the rest.

When something breaks hopefully Sig won't be too busy with gov contracts or new rifles to make a part for you. That's why Knights sucks. lol. I digress.

 

[theLBC]

i don't know why these always have to turn into "my shit is better" threads.

/my shit is better.

 

[Praetorian_6]

i don't know why these always have to turn into "my shit is better" threads.

/my shit is better.

Haha. Well, we wouldn't be here if we weren't at least a little passionate about the subject.

 

[Ravenworks]

Unless there is something I am missing. What does the LMT, KAC, H&K, etc.... offer that the SIG will never be able to offer in your opinion? Please educate me here because this is like a 2-4k question that many of us cannot find a clear difference with that would allow something to literally cost that much more?

Look you seem like a nice person and this is the second time you've made that comment.
YOU need to do your own reading because you don't have the basic knowledge that you need.
If you had experience with a quality firearm you'd get what the offerings are.

 

[theLBC]

The quality and performance for a foundation is there and there but SIG is there own worst enemy. Will they take the platform seriously? I doubt it. Will they listen to customers? No. Then again they just might. With SIG you will never know so many hope for the worst based off the past. They deserve that outlook from past and present dealings I guess.

Unless there is something I am missing. What does the LMT, KAC, H&K, etc.... offer that the SIG will never be able to offer in your opinion? Please educate me here because this is like a 2-4k question that many of us cannot find a clear difference with that would allow something to literally cost that much more?

if you have a good running rifle, why do you want folks to tell you why it isn't as good as what they have?
can't you just be happy?
i understand that people want to justify their purchases when they spend more, but it is really sort of silly the other way around.
many things cost more for no particular reason, perfume and purses for example.
imo, top tier precision semi-automatic rifles are really not in that category.

yes, my _____ rifle is better than yours, but telling you why wouldn't make you feel better, so why do you want to know?

 

[sinister]

"Better" means different things to different people. It's lighter. That's better. Here's some things I'd like data on:
- Is it more precise? I've seen comments that suggest it's a 1.5 MOA rifle, while the AP, or rather BA, has a 1MOA guarantee. That doesn't mean that I believe them until I see or do some independent testing.
- Is it more durable? I've heard BA barrels don't last long. Guys have said they've worn out barrels in ~4k rounds. If true, that sucks. I will get that many rounds through mine in a few years. Will report back. No idea on the 716.
- Is it more reliable in cycling rounds. So far, I had 1 FTF in 400 rnds, and it came from a batch of defects I'd separated from dented reloaded rounds from American Marksman. It actually cycled the rest.

When something breaks hopefully Sig won't be too busy with gov contracts or new rifles to make a part for you. That's why Knights sucks. lol. I digress.

Did Aero compete or bid? If not it's a moot point. The SIG beat the other offerings.

Was 1 MOA a requirement? This thing replaces the FAL, AKM, and INSAS. Not hard to do.

I have no idea whether or not the Indians' rifles are breaking or not -- but it would probably be in their armed forces forums and the open press if they sucked outright.

Do Aero, Knight, LMT, HK, Ruger, Remington, and Armalite (amongst others) beat the SIG? Maybe so. Did they bid? This was for a line-dog rifle -- not a precision DM or sniper system.

Could they bid without busting a federal or defense acquisition law or reg? Could HK export to India (and agree to local off-set manufacturing? They've done it before in Greece, Thailand, Pakistan, and Turkey)?

All academic -- SIG made the sale. Probably not a bad rifle (I won't buy a civil version unless they make it without QD holes in the lower).

 

[BCP]

Maybe so. I don't know. "Better" means different things to different people.

I like aero stuff but my m5e1 just didn't hold up. Handguard kept coming loose when riding around with a sling plus a couple other things. Handling the sig it doesn't look to me like it will have the same issues.

 

[Praetorian_6]

Did Aero compete or bid? If not it's a moot point.

Bud, no offense, but you're taking the discussion away from the person I responded to. It had nothing to do with the Indian contract. I responded to a "betterness" claim someone else made. You can take up mootness with him. lol