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The SIG 716I TREAD .308 may be the best AR-308 / AR-10 type battle rifle for the money.
- Thread starter GLD1980
- Start date
It's a tad on the heavy side for a battle carbine. The one I shot had an aftermarket trigger drop-in and a Sig muzzle break. Those were the only mods it had. It was a one MOA gun with Sig 175 grain .308 ammo. That was the only ammo I got to try on paper for accuracy. I thought it might shoot a bit tighter with 7.62x51 ammo. If the guy brings it back over, I've got some m118lr I'd like to try in it on paper.
So here's a video from this weekend. This time I went 15/20 and also corrected target data but I still made some big errors that I listed in the video discription. I also shot a few groups with 3 different loads and I admittedly kinda suck! I have made improvements but I lack patience and it shows. I'll label the targets and post pics by this weekend. Take care.
Target is a 10" steel plate at about 20° slope angle 250yds away. Previously I had it listed at 280yds/ 29° slope angle.
Target is a 10" steel plate at about 20° slope angle 250yds away. Previously I had it listed at 280yds/ 29° slope angle.
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Once my abilities catch up to the rifles capabilities and my results show improvement, I will feel better. The 716I is really a pleasure to shoot. The price is what makes it all seem too good to be true. Everytime I shoot my 716I I am never disappointed in the gun, only my disipline.
Seriously, you're disappointed with that performance (shooting it cold, without at least one spotter shot to verify your math and best data guess)?
Your thread title and the point of the discussion is the 716 isn't bad (at the price point, and for international sale) for a battle rifle issued to infantry privates.
A ten-inch plate is roughly the size of a head. Ten high and twenty wide would be head and shoulders with The Dome of Obedience sitting on top of someone in the prone trying to shoot you.
Cut you one of these out of steel and use this for your report card to 300. We usually only shoot it to 100 with M4s and M16s with irons and ACOGs:
If you can't hit this (40 high and 20 wide) from 200 to 500 with a decent 7.62 with irons from the prone, or with the rig with scope you used in the video (now that you have confirmed data), you need a seeing eye dog. It's why we call it practice.
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@sinisterSeriously, you're disappointed with that performance (shooting it cold, without at least one spotter shot to verify your math and best data guess)?
Your thread title and the point of the discussion is the 716 isn't bad (at the price point, and for international sale) for a battle rifle issued to infantry privates.
A ten-inch plate is roughly the size of a head. Ten high and twenty wide would be head and shoulders with The Dome of Obedience sitting on top of someone in the prone trying to shoot you.
Cut you one of these out of steel and use this for your report card to 300. We usually only shoot it to 100 with M4s and M16s with irons and ACOGs:
If you can't hit this (40 high and 20 wide) from 200 to 500 with a decent 7.62 with irons from the prone, or with the rig with scope you used in the video (now that you have confirmed data), you need a seeing eye dog. It's why we call it practice.
I am very pleased with the SIG 716I. The more I shoot with it the more its performance impresses me. Once I tighten up my shot group I will be satisfied. My personal disappointment lies in my fundamentals and mistakes. I want to be better and faster. I believe both goals and much more are easily achievable with this gun, more training and disipline.
How’s it run with 147 grain milspec-surplus fmj ammo? Anything it doesn’t like….steel case, coated brass, etc.?
It was built to be an infantry rifle so I bet it works fine with 150gr surplus. Steel case like Wolf is anybody's guess since that Russian quality control is abysmal.
Stopped by one of the local gun stores today and they had a stack of them on sale for $1299. Fondled one for a bit and it seems well made. Not as light and maneuverable as my POF Revolution, but not as bulky and weighty as my old RRA Lar8….kind of in between. I admit I was tempted….thinking it may be a good all round rifle to run unsuppressed with whatever ammo is at hand for a plinking/buggy/truck gun.
I really like this rifle, I run a PST II 1-6 on it as I didn't want to over power it-it is a 16" carbine, not a match gun.
I have shot various 145/147/150 grain "ball" loads without issue. While I didn't take pics or remember exactly, 168 FGMM and BH match 175 smk's both shot at least 1.5" at 100 for 5 round groups, I've squeaked a few smaller ones though. My load is the Hornady 150 fmjbt with mixed brass and H4895, 6" plate at 300 prone was 19/20 at 1-1.5 second pace. Just a fun gun, not slinging match loads as a norm.
I have shot various 145/147/150 grain "ball" loads without issue. While I didn't take pics or remember exactly, 168 FGMM and BH match 175 smk's both shot at least 1.5" at 100 for 5 round groups, I've squeaked a few smaller ones though. My load is the Hornady 150 fmjbt with mixed brass and H4895, 6" plate at 300 prone was 19/20 at 1-1.5 second pace. Just a fun gun, not slinging match loads as a norm.
https://grabagun.com/ruger-32.html
The Ruger Elite 452 trigger is not only inexpensive but impressive. I love it in my Ruger AR-556 MPR.
FYSA
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/10/30/top-10-ar-10-suppressors/
Pete, the Editor in Chief over at The Firearm Blog featured the SIG716I on this weekends Suppressor Saturday. He also weighed in on how the SIG 716I stacks up against other AR-308/ AR-10 type rifles and how well it performs with the use of suppressors.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/10/30/top-10-ar-10-suppressors/
Pete, the Editor in Chief over at The Firearm Blog featured the SIG716I on this weekends Suppressor Saturday. He also weighed in on how the SIG 716I stacks up against other AR-308/ AR-10 type rifles and how well it performs with the use of suppressors.
It's only a couple hundred more than a PSA lol.
@RUTGERS95
I don't agree with you on the 716I being overpriced, its still the best value out IMO. However if SIG does not come out with accessible spare parts support, as promised, there will soon be no more room in my opinion for further discussion. Today, a firearms warranty is simply not enough to make an owner feel comfortable. A reliable on hand supply of back up parts and reserve parts are needed and expected. Regardless of how good the gun or who makes the gun!
AP selling for 999, PSA (which I hate) has 308s for 799 with sight post and those use 'standard' parts
very little about the sig is compatible in a mkt that is trying to achieve parts commonality. the sig is 1300 and for the life of me, I can't see where that 30% increase over a m5 is?
accuracy, M5 has BA barrels which offer 1 moa guarantee and from experience, are plenty accurate
parts commonality, M5 uses dpms pattern which is the defacto standard. Can you imagine needing to keep a spare CH on hand for sig????
product support, M5 by a landslide since it's up against sig. sig and customer support is akin to AK and Long Range accuracy
reliability, we don't know about the sig yet but the M5 is well regarded here. There is nothing innovative in sig to enhance standard reliabilty
so for 30% more what am I getting? objectively
also bear in mind that prices have come down and sig's has not
Now I do own an M5 as well LMT, LaRue, KAC(sold it recently) and some home brews so I'm not a M5 fanboy but for a cheap beater gun, what am I getting with the Sig?
price it less than a M5 and I'll pick one up and beat it to hell and report back
I dont have a dog in this fight but I have some real world experience with the Sig 716i recently. A friend wants some ammo loaded for his rifle, so I asked him to hand it over along with his reloading components (primers, 168gn Sierra BTHP, powder, etc). Rifle has a Bushnell DMR II-i in a Vortex cantilever mount, but other than that (and an added pic rail and bipod on the bottom), its bone stock.
Testing started with taking groups and velocities from factory 168gn Federal Gold Medal Match (FGMM). I shot a few groups and was immediately impressed with the accuracy from a stock rifle using decent ammunition - I've had poor luck with large frame gas guns in the past. Velocity averaged 2460fps from the 16" barrel. Also impressive.
Long story long, I was able to get some really impressive results from this setup and its on my short list of recommendations for anyone looking for a turn-key setup in a large frame AR, that doesn't want to spend KAC, LMT money. My only gripe is with the trigger as the stock trigger is heavy - easy enough to change. You'll need to change the muzzle device to suit your suppressor but it works fine as is.
I have the original target paper of FGMM with several groups on it. can post if interested. I believe they are all 1" +/-0.2 - likely due to the heavy trigger. The best it shot was a group in the 3s with a load I developed that I decided was too hot to mass produce for my friend. 2620fps
Testing started with taking groups and velocities from factory 168gn Federal Gold Medal Match (FGMM). I shot a few groups and was immediately impressed with the accuracy from a stock rifle using decent ammunition - I've had poor luck with large frame gas guns in the past. Velocity averaged 2460fps from the 16" barrel. Also impressive.
Long story long, I was able to get some really impressive results from this setup and its on my short list of recommendations for anyone looking for a turn-key setup in a large frame AR, that doesn't want to spend KAC, LMT money. My only gripe is with the trigger as the stock trigger is heavy - easy enough to change. You'll need to change the muzzle device to suit your suppressor but it works fine as is.
I have the original target paper of FGMM with several groups on it. can post if interested. I believe they are all 1" +/-0.2 - likely due to the heavy trigger. The best it shot was a group in the 3s with a load I developed that I decided was too hot to mass produce for my friend. 2620fps
don't know, don't care but this is a stupid question really as no one knows if it was even tendered much less the requirements and of course, foreign contract sales are rife with.....foobudgery.
Not hating the sig at all, just realistic
I think the performance and reliability of the 716I is what really sets this gun apart from all the other entry and mid teir guns and makes it a best value amongst top teir offerings. The only thing this gun is lacking that other Top Tier Manufacturers have is ¹Adjustable Gas, ²Ambi BHO/BR, and ³LMT's Modularity. The 716I also doesn't cost 2-5 times more to own either. I'm not a SIG Salesman so if you'd rather have the PA-10 by all means go ahead and get it. Don't they come with Geissele triggers too? I don't believe the PA-10 is a finer gun than the SIG but it is less expensive and reliable.
The sig has a diff handguard design kinda like the larue except with a couple big screws crosspin it. Plus it has a longer gas system and a heavy buffer so shouldn't be overgassed like most of the cheap carbine 308s. My m5e1 the handguards fell off whenever I used a sling lol. Can't imagine the PSA is any more durable.
This just showed up in my inbox. Seems like a reasonable price for the setup if you're looking
grabagun.com
Sig Sauer 716i Tread 7.62 X 51/.308 Win 16" 20-Round M-LOK Handguard
The Sig Sauer 716i Tread is engineered to deliver exceptional quality, performance and comes standard with features for today's AR platform rifles. Chambered in 7.62x51/.308 Win, this rifle has a 16-inch barrel, an adjustable telescopic stock, and comes with one 20-round magazine. It also comes...
grabagun.com
Here are my groups from my last 716I shoot in September that I forgot to post. Nothing to brag about but I am getting better. Hard to tell how well the FED GMM SMK's performed because I shot my last 7rds. The ADI 168gr TMK below also performed well. With more practice and patience I believe I can tighten up my shot groups down to a .75 - .5 MOA.
ADI 168gr TMK's
FED GMM 168gr SMK's
Not sure if it matters but I used a Pittsburgh 6" Digital Caliper and measured edge to edge of furthest shots and deducted .308. If anyone has a better method or software to check my measurements I'd appreciate it. Take care
ADI 168gr TMK's
FED GMM 168gr SMK's
Not sure if it matters but I used a Pittsburgh 6" Digital Caliper and measured edge to edge of furthest shots and deducted .308. If anyone has a better method or software to check my measurements I'd appreciate it. Take care
try different ammo, get a nice trigger and practice. best part is learning your stick!Here are my groups from my last 716I shoot in September that I forgot to post. Nothing to brag about but I am getting better. Hard to tell how well the FED GMM SMK's performed because I shot my last 7rds. The ADI 168gr TMK below also performed well. With more practice and patience I believe I can tighten up my shot groups down to a .75 - .5 MOA.
ADI 168gr TMK's
FED GMM 168gr SMK's
Not sure if it matters but I used a Pittsburgh 6" Digital Caliper and measured edge to edge of furthest shots and deducted .308. If anyone has a better method or software to check my measurements I'd appreciate it. Take care
The little screws on the M5e1 handguard kept coming loose. I tried every kind of threadlocker and superglue too.
You aren't lying! I am having a blast learning along the way but I have a long way to go. I added JP's Enhanced Ignition Reliability Spring kit to my current trigger and its not bad but if it doesn't break-in to a more buttery squeeze I may upgrade. What do you recommend?
After making some adjustments to the loads, taming them down a bit, this seems to be where the Sig wants to shoot in its current setup. The trigger pull very heavy so not exactly great for shooting groups. Add your lighter trigger of choice and I'd bet it can shoot a fair bit better, maybe not.
Brass: FGMM
Powder: XBR 8208 - 40gn
Primer: Rem 9.5
Bullet: 168 SMK BTHP
Velocity: 2460fps
C.O.L: 2.78
Brass: FGMM
Powder: XBR 8208 - 40gn
Primer: Rem 9.5
Bullet: 168 SMK BTHP
Velocity: 2460fps
C.O.L: 2.78
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I think you can get that tighter but you're already handloading and finding the right recipe. Trigger will help but not magic, comes down to barrel and practice and of course, which pill/recipe your stick likes
No argument here about any of that. It's not my rifle, so my involvement in this thread is to offer some unbiased opinions. At this point, I'm done shooting the rifle. The initial goal of this project was to clone 168gn FGMM (with the components available at the time) for a friend and to that end, mission accomplished.
Unbiased Opinion is this:
The trigger pull is heavy, but consistent - not gritty. If it were my rifle I would hit the easy button. Swap for a Geissele SSA-E when they're on-sale for $180. Other than that, it be a muzzle brake change to accommodate my suppressor and thats it. No hiccups in feeding or extracting from a PMAG. Nice fit and finish. Accurate rifle in a small package.
Amazing how good that 168gr fgmm is. It just works
Ladakh Scout line infantry soldiers with current-issue 716is:
Sir, I heard the MOD wants to order another 70K plus of these rifles. And from first hand info I hear the rifles are performing quite well. No surprise considering the hard lessons learned from the Insas debacle.
ATTN Group,
Over at SIG Talk a user brought up a complaint of what he describes is a 716I lacking a Chrome Lined Bolt Carrier, a fully Nitrided BCG, and a fully Nitrided Barrel. User @Skillercruz brought it to the groups attention and he also believes the parts in question are phosphated in lieu of Nitriding based on what 3 different SIG CS reps said. So please have a look and weigh in. Its starts at the end of page 5 on the thread below.
https://www.sigtalk.com/threads/the-sig-716i-tread-thread.412335
My intention is not to get anyone all worked up, at least not yet but I could use some expert opinions regarding the finish and the appropriate course of action to take if it is indeed phosphated.
Thanks in advance!
Over at SIG Talk a user brought up a complaint of what he describes is a 716I lacking a Chrome Lined Bolt Carrier, a fully Nitrided BCG, and a fully Nitrided Barrel. User @Skillercruz brought it to the groups attention and he also believes the parts in question are phosphated in lieu of Nitriding based on what 3 different SIG CS reps said. So please have a look and weigh in. Its starts at the end of page 5 on the thread below.
https://www.sigtalk.com/threads/the-sig-716i-tread-thread.412335
My intention is not to get anyone all worked up, at least not yet but I could use some expert opinions regarding the finish and the appropriate course of action to take if it is indeed phosphated.
Thanks in advance!
I feel like I'm in a arfcom thread
Nothing at all wrong with phosphate and non nitride parts. Our weapons worked in every theater, every discernible condition and no rust etc. That thread u linked is full on arfcomesque imho.
Carry on, enjoy your stick!
Nothing at all wrong with phosphate and non nitride parts. Our weapons worked in every theater, every discernible condition and no rust etc. That thread u linked is full on arfcomesque imho.
Carry on, enjoy your stick!
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in the sig thread we have, 'I thought they nitrided it then phosphated it'
in the arfcom thread we have, 'I have the sig, lmt, and kac and the value goes to the sig'
I don't where to begin really
by all accounts, the rifle works well, has reasonable accuracy and aside from being heavy (although weight is overrated discussed), seems to do the job intended. not sure why all the fkery on this. Just shoot an enjoy.
in the arfcom thread we have, 'I have the sig, lmt, and kac and the value goes to the sig'
I don't where to begin really
by all accounts, the rifle works well, has reasonable accuracy and aside from being heavy (although weight is overrated discussed), seems to do the job intended. not sure why all the fkery on this. Just shoot an enjoy.
India Mod does follow TOP 3-2-045 for weapon procurement. Im inclined to think this SIG 716I adopted by India meets the specs being it is a mil spec Select fire battle rifle and they do ask for test documentation.
So group, this could very well be a misunderstanding and I wanted to bring it to the forums attention. Here are the pics from @Skillercruz at SIG Talk.
He states his rifle does not have a Chrome Lined Bolt Carrier and that his BCG and barrel are not Nitrided. He feels there phosphated or not coated. I am not a metal coatings expert so I need help identifying if there is indeed a problem?
Do I still feel the SIG is the best bang for the buck? Yes, but could this change things? Possibly thats why I am reaching out. New buyers deserve to know what their buying and many come to these forums for guidance so we should do our best to guide with clear accurate info.
He states his rifle does not have a Chrome Lined Bolt Carrier and that his BCG and barrel are not Nitrided. He feels there phosphated or not coated. I am not a metal coatings expert so I need help identifying if there is indeed a problem?
Do I still feel the SIG is the best bang for the buck? Yes, but could this change things? Possibly thats why I am reaching out. New buyers deserve to know what their buying and many come to these forums for guidance so we should do our best to guide with clear accurate info.
