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Rifle Scopes The truth about Leupold thread
- Thread starter hrfunk
- Start date
I'll bet you I know more about their line-up and their future line-up then you do. I speak with their reps I'll bet more than you do as well. Of course you have no intelligible response back as to why you think I'm incorrect accept to talk shit in defense Leupold. You're a fanboy...
Buddy of mine just got one of the Mark 8 3.5-25's after I advised against it. Had it at the range yesterday and the reticle isn't even close to being centered in the scope. Completely inexcusable for a scope in that price range. I understand everyone has a bad product every now and then but after the extra 8 months he waited I figured they would have delivered him a good one. That someone would have at least looked through. I noticed it immediately, you'd think they would have.
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What do you mean "not centered"?
If he has a canted MOA base the reticle will be off center. Same for if the base isn't true to the bore and he had to dial a lot of windage to get it zeroed.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Mark 6 3-18 FFP, rev indicator, zero stops, mil/mil, TMR, locking elevation turret- cost me a bit less than 2K and I am not LEO nor military. I referenced a Mark 6 in my original post and you referenced a Mark 8. I cannot comment on a Mark 8 cause I don't own one. I can sure comment on a Mark 6 though. If Nightforce makes better glass I haven't seen it and I have looked through more than a couple. You can get 2 NF scopes with teh features of the Mark 6, for 2K? This is exactly what I was talking about.
Do I need all those bells and whistles? No, but they are handy. I will own another Mark 6 within 12 months if the creek don't rise. Buy whatever you like and hate Leupold all you want. Me? I will keep buying them cause I have never had a bad one, and I am famous for buying lemons...but never bought a bad Leupold.
Since 1983 I've bought 4 Vari-X2s, 2 VX-2s, 2 Vari-X3s, 2 VX-3s, and 1 2-7X rimfire. I love them all, and never a problem with any of them.
I linked it to the Leupold website since you wanted numbers. I gave multiple examples and like always it's now going from what the MSRP is to what was actually paid. Do you really want to play that game of how much something costs based upon what I can actually get it for? And as for the Night Force and getting 2x it was in reference to the $4K illuminated model which also was linked for reference had you bothered to actually look. And I never said anything about whether you need "bells and whistles". In contrary my biggest argument is the lack there of unless you pay a ridiculous amount if we're talking MSRP, but apparently we've moved into the realm of however much someone snags one for from a buddy or where ever. You wanted numbers and now you're choosing to ignore them.
Anyone who pays MSRP for a Leupold is an idiot. There is a HUGE difference between MSRP and Liberty Optics: Specials, Demos, Trades
That isn't some "call for price" deal, that is advertized in the public realm and street value.
Hate cannot be responded to with fact and reason. Yer asking a farm animal to paint a Rembrandt.
When I say not centered I mean not centered. When the windage turret was zeroed and the scope was NOT on the rifle looking through it the reticle is off to the left. Looking at the graduation marks you can see 6.1mils on the reticle on the left and 6.3+ on the right. Hence like I said, the reticle isn't centered.
Ive had a few peoples: 6.5-20x Mark 4's, LRT's, 6.5-20x FFP Premier conversion, 3.5-10x M3. I had 1 MAJOR issue, it was with the premier conversion. I shot a match a few years back at NPRC at it didnt hold a zero and the adjustments were all over the place. All my FACTORY leupolds have been awesome. I love the 3.5-10x M3. Yes they are expensive new.
Also for your education none of that has anything to do with the reticle being centered. The reticle is etched on a piece of glass that is fixed in the scope. It's either centered or its not. Moving the erector tube with the windage turret doesn't effect where the reticle is, nor does having a canted base. Still don't believe me? Call your favorite optics company and ask them.
What makes you think I didn't read the links. I have seen them many times but I did read them again. Yes? So? Where is the link to Nightforce and their comparable model. I wish you could understand how stupid you look right now. You have lambasted ME, for not acknowledging the superior NF value, All the while trying to reference a manufacturers site that has prices no one has ever paid, only to come up short with..."I can get a NF for that." or "I can get 2 NF scopes for that." WhaaattheFuuuck?
Aren't you guilty of what you are accusing me of? Your post is like some bizzarro world reasoning from a 10 year old.
Ok gimme a link to the NF MSRP on their model that directly compares to the MK6, can you do that? I really don't care if you do that. You have an axe to grind with Leupold, we all get that. There are lots of NF fanboys who like to do this. Everyone here has seen this behavior before and should recognize it for what it is. You aren't helping your case by continuing to prove my point.
Then the same could be send in regards to prices on NF, Vortex, and many others who also offer HEAVY discounts. People here want to play the comparison game of one optic at a discount to another optic at regular price to try and sway an opinion.
You're an idiot and a hypocrite. I've given plenty of logical and rational reasons and you've had ZERO intelligible responses other than to talk shit about me personally. Good luck with that tool..l
First, I never said you didn't recognize NF as a superior value... I said and I'm still saying that at MSRP Leupold is OVERPRICED. Second, the only stupidity is when you guys want to compare a discounted optic to a retail priced optic. Lastly, I'm not even a NF fan, but you define fanboy to a T when rather than giving a reason why Leupold is better in features, price, etc you instead argue like grandidiot and do the exact thing you accuse me of.
CS tactical lists the F1 CHEAPER than my base model MK6, not by much. The NF F1 IS the comparable model to MY particular scope. I also know what I actually paid for my scope and I will not repeat that number. I have friends that have owned NF scopes, they no longer own them however, and we have played this game. We have set them side by side on more than one occasion and made direct comparisons in low light, extreme mirage, etc, etc. USO and Premier have also come out to play our little comparison games. The Mk6 is worth the coin. The Premier has had the nod over all I mentioned. If I was forced to pay retail for the Leupold I would buy a Premier at the discount. It all boils down to being a smart shopper and knowing what you want in an optic. Everyone who has looked through my MK6 to date and were able to make a comparison rated it just below the Premier and well above the NF, equal to a USO.
Your argument is one entirely of opinion and situation.
More and more individuals are having issues with Leupold because quite frankly, their CS isn't what it used to be.
If I'm a new customer. I buy a MK4 RIGHT NOW, and the recital is cock-eyed, or tilted, slanted or even double (I've seen this a few times); that's a failure of Leupold's.
The onus was on Leupold to inspect that product before it ever left the four corners of their factory -- Something that is CLEARLY not happening.
I also, have the exact OPPOSITE situation with my Nightforce. My 5.5-22x56 NXS is 100% superior in every facet to my 6.5x20x50 MK4 LR/T.
I'm not sitting here claiming Nightforce is the best because of 1 example, I'm sitting here pointing out that Leupold CS IS not cutting it anymore for MANY customers...and Nightforce's is.
Again, I don't really care if your MK6 is Buddah reincarnated...I care more about the average customer and the average customer isn't doing so well @ Leupold.
Although I disagree with the review and opinion on better optic, I can't disagree with the being a smart shopper. My problem though still resides in the MAP cost vs. other manufacturers MAP pricing and the fact that their CS has been piss poor over the past year. If you never have to use it then great, but if you did and had to deal with what many of my friends and customers have had to deal with I'll bet your MK 6 that your opinion would differ from it's current. I wish I could video what the Reps say and play it back for you guys.
"Your argument is one entirely of opinion and situation."
And your argument isn't?
More and more individuals are having issues with Leupold because quite frankly, their CS isn't what it used to be.
"If I'm a new customer. I buy a MK4 RIGHT NOW, and the recital is cock-eyed, or tilted, slanted or even double (I've seen this a few times); that's a failure of Leupold's."
And I have seen 2 NF scopes that came from the factory and would not track. We gonna hold them to the same standard?
"The onus was on Leupold to inspect that product before it ever left the four corners of their factory -- Something that is CLEARLY not happening."
Happens every day in every kind of factory. I work in a force of 156 people, in my division there are some that are dead wood. Leupold employs over 700, think there might be a slacker or two in there?
"I also, have the exact OPPOSITE situation with my Nightforce. My 5.5-22x56 NXS is 100% superior in every facet to my 6.5x20x50 MK4 LR/T."
Opinion again?
"I'm not sitting here claiming Nightforce is the best because of 1 example, I'm sitting here pointing out that Leupold CS IS not cutting it anymore for MANY customers...and Nightforce's is."
So...if I buy a used NF and it has a problem, who foots the bill?
"Again, I don't really care if your MK6 is Buddah reincarnated...I care more about the average customer and the average customer isn't doing so well @ Leupold."
And I don't care if your 2 thousand dollar Tasco is Jesus Christ. So I am not the average customer, I am the exception. Yeah I am lucky like that I guess....
And your argument isn't?
More and more individuals are having issues with Leupold because quite frankly, their CS isn't what it used to be.
"If I'm a new customer. I buy a MK4 RIGHT NOW, and the recital is cock-eyed, or tilted, slanted or even double (I've seen this a few times); that's a failure of Leupold's."
And I have seen 2 NF scopes that came from the factory and would not track. We gonna hold them to the same standard?
"The onus was on Leupold to inspect that product before it ever left the four corners of their factory -- Something that is CLEARLY not happening."
Happens every day in every kind of factory. I work in a force of 156 people, in my division there are some that are dead wood. Leupold employs over 700, think there might be a slacker or two in there?
"I also, have the exact OPPOSITE situation with my Nightforce. My 5.5-22x56 NXS is 100% superior in every facet to my 6.5x20x50 MK4 LR/T."
Opinion again?
"I'm not sitting here claiming Nightforce is the best because of 1 example, I'm sitting here pointing out that Leupold CS IS not cutting it anymore for MANY customers...and Nightforce's is."
So...if I buy a used NF and it has a problem, who foots the bill?
"Again, I don't really care if your MK6 is Buddah reincarnated...I care more about the average customer and the average customer isn't doing so well @ Leupold."
And I don't care if your 2 thousand dollar Tasco is Jesus Christ. So I am not the average customer, I am the exception. Yeah I am lucky like that I guess....
I feel some of the Leupold scopes are overpriced. A year or so later, having some buyer's remorse about the MK4 8-25 with M5 turrets. Same scope with M1 is considerably less. Not sure why Leupold charges more while other scope makers do not. Great scope that works well, bur for the money wish I would have purchased a NF.
Numerous Leupolds here from VX-1 to VX-3 on everything from .22LR upward, including rifles used professionally for food grade game culling. None have any faults and all work flawlessly.
There will always be people who are unsatisfied with aspects of a product be it fault from factory, longevity or customer service. For me they are good scopes.
Cheers from down under - boingk
There will always be people who are unsatisfied with aspects of a product be it fault from factory, longevity or customer service. For me they are good scopes.
Cheers from down under - boingk
Again, I own a Leupold, love my Leupold but, their CS isn't what it used to be.
Nightforce's CS on the other hand is fantastic, had a gentleman on the phone within 5 minutes to answer my questions...With Leupold 1.2 hours on hold, xyz day only. ~ Guess who I'd rather call?
I own 13 various Leupold scope, 2 mk4s, 2 x2s and the remainder x3s. Over 25 yrs I've returned one for repair and upgrades that I purchased used. It was a vx3 6.5 - 20 LR that the windage was binding up. Contacted CS who sent out a custom shop catalog. I wrote a letter outlining the problem and requested mk4 turrets and retical change. I sent it in anr received a call from CS 3 days later confirming the work request and paid for the turrets and retical. I heard back about a week later that the scope was on its way back home.
While in the military, I was issued an M24. During that 18 month period of time I beat the snot out of that scope during training and it never fogged or lost zero to my amazement since I previously went through 2 Redfields on an M21.
While in the military, I was issued an M24. During that 18 month period of time I beat the snot out of that scope during training and it never fogged or lost zero to my amazement since I previously went through 2 Redfields on an M21.
the anti Lupy topics are tired and old, if you dont like em fuck off and dont buy em, The hundreds of thousands of satisfied customers dont give two fucks what a few internet commandos opinions are, mine included.
Maybe cuz Leupold has 10-1000 times the number of units in the field as Nightforce does? Ya think?
Leupold - founded 1907
Nightforce - founded 1992
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Yes because Leupold invented the internet too...Oh, an no quality company made after 1907 could POSSIBLY exist in this world since, you know the internet was created back then as well. That's why there aren't as many complaints! DUH!
My comments are in reference to Leupold's RECENT decline in customer satisfaction with NEWER products. Not the scopes of the 20th century.
I've been shooting the MK6 3-18x44 for a while now. It's non illum, completely fine by me. It's not my first tactical scope. I've had a MK4 M3 10x40 as my first long range scope, and I've had everything from Bushnell and Vortex up to Premier. My MK6 is a great scope, it's got great glass in it's price range, the turrets are accurate and responsive. It's nice and compact ( 1lb lighter than the HDMR) it resolves well, and it holds as well as returns to zero. I proved this in am match I spun the turret all the way up and down, then shot the paper stages of our match. Oh, not to mention the FOV on it is very nice compared to some. I also have a MK4 1.5-5x20 It's not bad either, but I'll take my MK6 over a lot of scopes in it's class. If people want to go on about Leupold 5 years ago I guess have at it. If people that have not used locking turrets before want to complain the MK6s are mushy, they will be disappointed when they feel others locking turrets. Not to say they like all companies can't have issues. I've heard of EVERY scope brand going down in a match.
So I can't speak to anyone else's Leupold's but all of the ones I had were nice scopes. MK4 MK-AR MK6 and the MK4 1.4-5.
Go out and shoot a lil more, spend less time finding the "truth" on the internet.
So I can't speak to anyone else's Leupold's but all of the ones I had were nice scopes. MK4 MK-AR MK6 and the MK4 1.4-5.
Go out and shoot a lil more, spend less time finding the "truth" on the internet.
Show me your sample size that documents 4-5x the # of customer service issues with Leupold for scopes made in the last 5 years compared to Nightforce. (Seat of the pants and internet whinings don't count, per se.)
Yer missing my point - I'd be willing to bet Leup has sold 10-20x the # of scopes IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS that Nightforce has. Thus only 4-5x CS complaints is proof of Leupold's SUPERIOR product.
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I had to call 2x due to a technical problem with my mk6. I bought mine used and it didn't have instructions on how to bypass the zero stop. Their is an online .pdf doc that explains it but truthfully the instructions didn't go far enough for me, a newbie.
The first time I called I probably waited 6-8 minutes and then was on the phone with an older gentleman who was probably the head optical engineer lol.
The 2nd time I called I waited around 5 minutes and spoke with a younger gentleman, he retrieved a MK6 and went through the problem with me and had the issue figured out pretty quickly.
I can say that I am pretty happy with their customer service and wouldn't hesitate to call them again.
That's like saying Ford has sold 10-20x the # of cards than Porsche. Thus only 4-5x the complains is proof of Ford's superior product. Really now?
Nightforce doesn't build in the same quantity of product, nor do they occupy the same market share that Leupold does...In fact, Nightforce is even aimed at a different consumer level than Leupold.
Leupold has over 150 scopes ranging in price from $100-$5,000...
Nightforce has maybe 40 scopes, MAYBE...ranging in price from $1,000-$5,000.
Their market share is quite different.
I have no issues talking statistics with you...In fact, I'd love to talk correlation coefficients etc, would make for a good debate but, your entire post is so biased, talking about sampling from that perspective is rather stupid.
MY point is that you seem to be pulling "statistics" out of your hat.
And yes.... if Leupold has 10-20 the # on units in the field Nightforce has, and only 4-5x the # of complaints, that actually proves Leupold is a better product. Deal with it.
Leupold vs. Nightforce is NOT Ford vs. Porsche. Its BMW vs. Porsche
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So you're going to call out someone else for using made-up numbers to support their side of an argument, and then proceed to respond with your own made-up numbers as "proof"? Wow.
Once again, I snicker at your .sig:
Awesome!
Obviously, the numbers are made up for the sake of example, but they do illustrate the example. It wouldn't mean that Fords are superior, but it would show that they have a far lower rate of complaints. Somewhere between 1/5 to 1/2 the rate of Porsche, depending on which of your ranges you choose.
I do agree, to some extent, about the target market. Consumers of $200 are probably, or should be, less demanding than consumers of $2000 scopes.
Exactly.
What the hateboys don't seem to get is that I too can make up stats (10-20x the # of units) like they can make up stats (4-5x the # of complaints) to show how the point they are trying to make is logically incorrect.
The ONLY way their 4-5x the # of complaints is a meaningful # is if Leupold and Nightforce have roughly the same # of units out there. OBVIOUSLY that's NOT the case. Leupold FAR outsells Nightforce.
This is self-evidently true. But they are emotionally committed to never admitting the obvious flaws in their logic.
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In my experience, its often the opposite. People pay next to nothing, but then have millionaires expectations. When somebody has to scrape up every loose dime in the house to afford a $200 scope, you can darn well bet they expect it to work.
At the very least, I'd say that people are people. Regardless of what they paid, they expect their product to work.
I'm not emotionally connected to anything...I have a MK4, I have a MK6 on order...I simply prefer my NXS.
It's also logical that Leupold would have 4-5x the complaints since they have 4-5x the products but, I see that fact actually hasn't registered in your brain, yet.
It still doesn't deter from the fact that both scopes actually appeal to two completely different markets...Nor the fact that Leupolds #'s of product on the low end are more than likely the VAST MAJORITY of their total yield...But, since you haven't thought of that yet, I'm simply a "hateboy".
It's interesting because, I'd wager a bet with you that the VAST MAJORITY of Leupold's yield is sub $1,000 product. I guarantee you the CS on that $1,000 product is not the same as the CS on the MK6. Which, considering how much inventory Leupold pumps out makes sense...But, since you cannot quantify that, we're just hateboys.
...Meh. Of course they outsell Nightforce, they're not aimed at the same market.
If Leupold sells 10 $100 scopes and Nightforce sells 1 $1,000 scopes, who wins?
Nightforce's CS on that $1,000 scope is perfect. 3 of the Leupolds go back to factory. Is it your opinion that Leupold still wins?
The ultimate reality is that you're not factoring yield into this discussion. You're not factoring their target market into this discussion. You're not factoring cost into this discussion. You're actually not even factoring statistics in this discussion.
You're just waving a flag and shouting "hateboy".
Time for a business 101 course there, sir. I'd suggest you pay attention, too.
Dude.... that's the point I've been making all along. RIF.
Well, now you HAVE departed from any form of serious discussion.
I have no idea who wins, but I guarantee you ALL 11 purchasers expect their scope to work, regardless of price point.
Thus, since Leupold sells 10x the amount of product ( to use your made up #) , its only logical they have more defective units, in proportion with their greater # of units sold.
I'm a CPA. And its obviously you who's not paying attention. RIF.
"Nightforce's CS on that $1,000 scope is perfect" - not always true
no personal experience, as I have never had a reason to contact NF for mine - but 2 people I know had issues that were not real obvious and sent the scopes to NF, only to have them returned the 1st time saying there was nothing wrong - both returned the scopes a second time ( with a more pissed off attitude ) and the issue was repaired - one was on a 338 LM and more than 300 in factory ammo was burned determining it was definitely the scope
my take on this is the NF scopes are F'ed up seldom enough that many returns are not faulty and it has caused the repair / CS dept to become haughty
not the case with Lup where plenty of legit issues are addressed daily and the repair dept goes above and beyond, often fixing items that were not mentioned
no personal experience, as I have never had a reason to contact NF for mine - but 2 people I know had issues that were not real obvious and sent the scopes to NF, only to have them returned the 1st time saying there was nothing wrong - both returned the scopes a second time ( with a more pissed off attitude ) and the issue was repaired - one was on a 338 LM and more than 300 in factory ammo was burned determining it was definitely the scope
my take on this is the NF scopes are F'ed up seldom enough that many returns are not faulty and it has caused the repair / CS dept to become haughty
not the case with Lup where plenty of legit issues are addressed daily and the repair dept goes above and beyond, often fixing items that were not mentioned
RIF means reduction in force...How are you firing me?
Opinions are like assholes. We all have at least one.
I was being facetious.
I also have quite the opposite personal experience with Leupold. My battery issue was going to cost quite a bit.
Also have many buddies, especially some that are deployed, that have amazing experiences with Nightforce and the opposite with Leupold.
Ultimately, it's hit or miss and it is what it is...`
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I have and still own leupold scopes. They are on everything from 22lr to 50 bmg, and 22 to 500 sand w handguns. I have used the mk4 10x, 10x ultra, 3.5x10 m3, 3.5x10m2 on issued rifles. All have performed as intended. In my personal stash, I have newer mk4 scopes in 3.5x10x40 m3( still new in box), 2x 4.5x14x50, and a ert 6.5x20x50 m5. 10 leupold vari x 3 lrt(pre mark 4s in 3.5x10x40 m3, 4.5x14x50, 6.5x20x50), 3 newer vx 3 lrt in 4.5x14 and 6.5x20, roughly 5 vx2c 3x9x40's, 2 leupold 2.5 scout scopes, acouple vari x III in 1.5x5 30 mm illum, and around 7 handgun scopes in 2x, 2x8 ) I have had many leupolds cross my path, recently sold and traded newer mk4 in 3.5x10x40m3 and 2 mk4 3.5x10x40 m2 in fde. I honestly an not a total fan of the newer mk 4 lrt line, I prefer the older vari x tacticals for reasons already stated. If I am in need of a new high power variable, I will look for a used original vari x 3 tactical, or save for an ert version mk 4 as they seem better.
I have used most of the other brands, exception being S&B, Vortex, and steiner. I keep going back to leupold. I tried and like nightforce, but can usually get a close to spec leupold for 60% of a nightforce. I have other scopes( burris, bushnell elite and baush and lomb elites, redfield original 5 stars, etc on other hunting rifles)
I have dealt with leupold on numerous occasions with assistance in repairs, custom shop work( most recently a stainless vari x 3 lrt 4.5x14x50 with M1 turrets, and tmr reticle conversion a little over a year ago) and within the past 2 months 2 fde mk4 in 3.5x10x40 with m2 dials for repairs( 4day turn around, and 7 day turn around, completely overhauled with exception of FDE finish... total cost Shipping to them...
Every time the CS has been excellent, I have had a few scopes go tits up, but they were well used beforehand.
I do get the discounts, I have yet to use them as I usually buy used. I like the SFP, mil/moa scopes as I am used to them
I do not care for the 8.5x25 mk 4 or vx3, I have had both and IMHO they leave much to be desired.
My new favorite scope from Leupold has been the mk4 ERT 6.5x20x50 tmr m5 . It does what I need it to do.
I will be looking into the mk6 3.5x18 soon
I have had excellent luck with them and will continue to support them. I do feel that they are behind the curve and now running to catch up.
I have used most of the other brands, exception being S&B, Vortex, and steiner. I keep going back to leupold. I tried and like nightforce, but can usually get a close to spec leupold for 60% of a nightforce. I have other scopes( burris, bushnell elite and baush and lomb elites, redfield original 5 stars, etc on other hunting rifles)
I have dealt with leupold on numerous occasions with assistance in repairs, custom shop work( most recently a stainless vari x 3 lrt 4.5x14x50 with M1 turrets, and tmr reticle conversion a little over a year ago) and within the past 2 months 2 fde mk4 in 3.5x10x40 with m2 dials for repairs( 4day turn around, and 7 day turn around, completely overhauled with exception of FDE finish... total cost Shipping to them...
Every time the CS has been excellent, I have had a few scopes go tits up, but they were well used beforehand.
I do get the discounts, I have yet to use them as I usually buy used. I like the SFP, mil/moa scopes as I am used to them
I do not care for the 8.5x25 mk 4 or vx3, I have had both and IMHO they leave much to be desired.
My new favorite scope from Leupold has been the mk4 ERT 6.5x20x50 tmr m5 . It does what I need it to do.
I will be looking into the mk6 3.5x18 soon
I have had excellent luck with them and will continue to support them. I do feel that they are behind the curve and now running to catch up.
I owned a VXL scope that stood up to a .300 WM without a break for 3 years. Optics were good for what I paid. The illuminated reticle bled a lot though. I really like how low it mounted. Sold it and got an NSX. However it is hard to justidy a Mark for with the existence of the Vortex/SWFA. And for a few hundred more you have the likes of Night Force/Steiner/ SWFA Hd's and so on.
I have never liked Leupolds products. Myself "growing up" in the shooter community with S&B's I never liked the glass quality of Leupolds, the Mk4 I bought from them was nice, it was the one with M5A2 turrets and a H-58 reticle, It had the same problems with scope shadow play and eyerelief at lower powers but worked great at higher powers, the image was nice and clear thoe, I think that line of Mk4's and 6's and 8's are better than the ordinary m1-m3 turret style leupolds. Nice to see them step thier game up into the mil/mil arena. I think they have too far a bridge between lowend scopes at walmart and high end stuff like mk6 and mk8's.
The only Leupy I own in an old Vari-X II 4-14 AO that predates positive clicks. I've never been able to adjust the parallax out of it at any range. It's gathering dust in the bottom of my safe.
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