Thoughts on a 6.5 grendel long range precision rifle for my daughter?

[LRRPF52]

Yes, I found that CFE223 did not do well at all for me with the 107gr SMK, and another guy had similar results with the 100gr A-MAX. Velocities were all over the place.

However, it does to well with 100gr Barnes, and some lighter-weight 94gr experimental solids, so we're thinking that the start pressure of the solids, which resist swaging into the lands more, is giving the pressure that CFE needs to burn consistently, whereas the lighter cup & core pills don't fight it enough. I don't care about the copper fouling either. CFE seems to be the highest density, slower-burning powder that fills well in the Grendel case, and is very forgiving. Still not sure about temp sensitivity on it going down into low temps.

One powder I haven't worked with yet is AR Comp, which several people report is the best for accuracy for them across the board. It's an extruded, so that explains the consistency and temp stability. Some forum members here like Drifter really like it in the Grendel. As soon as I see some, I'll get it.

Were you in 1st Bat in the 1970's?

 

[bustin]

Sandwarrior, I was be rhetorical, but not trying to be an anus. Very well aware of the 123gr Scenar. I also have some of the new Scenar-L bullets in 120gr, but they don't have the BC of the 123gr. Some of my best accuracy is with the 123gr Scenar. Brian Litz's adjusted BC data for the 123gr A-MAX is .509 G1, versus the stated .510 BC, so not really noticeable by the shooter.

A lot of things have changed in Ranger Regiment since the Jeep days. Everybody got M4A1's in 1994, and now have M4A1 SOPMOD Block II carbines. CQB and MOUT have been Ranger Regiment forte dating back for a long time.

Anyway, yeah, I prefer a tight-handling gun, not long barrels. Can't shoot positions with long-barreled guns that well, so I'm a big fan of maneuverable carbines, especially on a hunt, or when running my DM Courses. Even the 18" guns get unruly when shooting kneeling or squatting, with a shooting sling. We are at altitude here, so I get excellent performance from the 123gr A-MAX at distance, but I haven't compared it drop-wise with the 123gr Scenar. They both have shot the best for me so far though, with best groups being just under .8 MOA for both at 100 and 200yds. I shoot steel past that, and rarely measure the groups-just looking for impact on 12" and IPSC at distance. I don't shoot anywhere in the State under 4400ft ASL, and often shoot 6600ft ASL as well.

8208XBR is definitely temp-stable, but it has an edge that you simply can't go over, and that is 28.5gr with the 123gr pills. Looking at its burn rate, it is actually a little fast for the 123gr pills, and I feel it is better suited from strictly a burn-rate perspective for 100gr, although a lot of people use it as their go-to for 123gr.

Agreed on AA2520 with temp-sensitivity. I'm getting ready to follow-up with CFE223 with duplicate pressure ladders to see how it compares to the 60 F temps I shot last with it. I also have some 130gr Norma GT's, but I'm keeping them for the .260 Remington. I honestly never intended to reach out past 700yds with my 16" Grendel, and it was only on a challenge by some guys who were shooting at 1200yds that I stretched it to see what it would do. My 1st round was just barely off the left edge, then 4 went on-target in rapid succession after that. There was no wind, so I wouldn't expect performance like that most of the time, but it smokes M118 and 168gr SMK's easily.

The Grendel has 2-6 grains of powder capacity advantage on the 6.8, and a 30 degree shoulder. I've been running my velocity comparisons between the two, often handicapping the Grendel while taking the fastest 6.8 SPC II loads I can find from 6.8 forums, many of which received a series of lashings for the poster who pushed well in excess of 65,000psi. If you use a 20" 6.8 ARP, hand-load the 110gr Nosler AB with an unnamed canister powder, pushing it to 2880fps with the Super Bolt, then you start to be competitive with my 16" Grendel and the 123gr SST hand load of 2572fps, which matches, then exceeds the 20" ARP 2880fps hand load for energy by 250yds, with better wind drift from the start. With factory loads, a 14.5" Grendel beats the 18" with SSA Tactical loads, so I guess if someone wants to push pressures with less performance from longer barrels that I'm not going to hump into the mountains, it's one option. Could be part of a weight-training program maybe.

The Grendel does not have a 2gr advantage over the 6.8.
I've made the offer several times over the last 6 years. Anyone that wants to get in a velocity race between a 6.8and Grendel bring it on.
I can push a 110gr bullet to 2800fps out of a 16" 6.8 without flattening primers.

As far as the OP, yes the Grendel/264 is a good cartridge for that. There may be better cartridges but not easier (6mmAR, 6mmBR, 6.5BR, 6mm Hagar).

 

[sandwarrior]

Yes, I found that CFE223 did not do well at all for me with the 107gr SMK, and another guy had similar results with the 100gr A-MAX. Velocities were all over the place.

However, it does to well with 100gr Barnes, and some lighter-weight 94gr experimental solids, so we're thinking that the start pressure of the solids, which resist swaging into the lands more, is giving the pressure that CFE needs to burn consistently, whereas the lighter cup & core pills don't fight it enough. I don't care about the copper fouling either. CFE seems to be the highest density, slower-burning powder that fills well in the Grendel case, and is very forgiving. Still not sure about temp sensitivity on it going down into low temps.

One powder I haven't worked with yet is AR Comp, which several people report is the best for accuracy for them across the board. It's an extruded, so that explains the consistency and temp stability. Some forum members here like Drifter really like it in the Grendel. As soon as I see some, I'll get it.

Were you in 1st Bat in the 1970's?

I meant to try AR Comp as well. Come to find out, it was sitting next to the 300-MP, and I grabbed the wrong jug. I don't load for pistol magnums either, [{dammit}]. I'll get some when I see it on the shelf next.

The issue I came across with the Grendel, and to a lesser, but still prevalent extent with the original 6.8 SPC was the cases are about 20% larger capacity than the 5.56/.223. Yet, the gas path remained the same. To get a bullet going fast you needed a slightly faster powder for it's relative weight to the 5.56. The faster burn was required so you don't have too much pressure at the gas port. Contrary to what some say, the gas system on an AR, when closed, does not like too much pressure. You have to find that sweet spot. Otherwise, high or low pressure, you'll be tearing up cases. I did a bunch of that with the AA2520 before I figured out the problem. The weird thing is when you start light with a slower powder and see case swipe, you need to go up in charge, not down. Once you get that figured, as I think you have with your description of the solids, it's a pretty impressive round to get way out there on the -15 platform.

I was in 1st. Bat from '81 to '85. In those four years we went from being one of two independent BN.'s to being part of SOCOM and then JASSOC and being Regimentalized in Oct. '84 when the 3rd Bat. came on line.

 

[Okie Gordon]

I have been talking to a couple buddies that shoot precision rifles and I expressed that I couldn't wait for my oldest daughter to shoot matches with me. I don't get hyper competitive in regards to some on here and a day at a match for daddy/daughter time would be awesome. I will probably never have the ability to place in the top 50% at say the GAP grind but I like it so I keep plugging away trying to get better and feel that this could be great building for my daughter who absolutely loves shooting .22 lr to show her to put in the work and you always get better. I was really set on getting another rifle in 6.5 creedmoor so my 9 year old daughter could shoot with me and I could be her wind dummy but she is recoil sensitive and doesn't want to shoot it anymore (after maybe 3 shots). I have read a lot about recoil sensitivity for kids and the first stated FACT is don't push them into a rifle they are not ready for or you may ruin them from shooting all together. Fast forward a couple weeks and I have a buddy that has a AR platform chambered in 6.8 spc that he let her shoot to see if she could deer hunt this year and she had no problems with the 6.8. She is comfortable first off with a AR due to the fact I started her on AR "type" with the Mossberg 715 .22lr and I think this helped a great deal and then the AR's seem to not have as much recoil. So I looked at the 6.5 Grendel and there are guys swearing they are doing 1000 yds shots on 12" steel with Grendel. Its hard with these newish calibers to figure out myth, propaganda, and the truth. If I invest in a Grendel for her, do you all think that she may be able to shoot out to say 200-1000 yds in team matches with me or just wait until she isn't recoil sensitive on my 6.5 creedmoor?

I have been in the same situation as you except it is my granddaughter that is interested in shooting with me in tactical matches.
When she was about 12 years old I bought an AR that could be set up for her small frame and have uppers in both .223 and in 6.5 Grendel.
The adjustable buttstock is extremely important because most rifles simply do not fit somebody who is barely 5' tall and 100 lbs.
She started off with the .223 but last year moved up to the Grendel and has not looked back. I asked her about the .223 a couple of weeks ago cause I am getting short on loaded Grendel ammo and she just stuck up her nose and has no desire to go back to the smaller round.
The Grendel shoots to 1000 yards just fine and mine is sub-moa under calm conditions. In the past I have had accuracy issues but worked thru them.
Wind correction is almost exactly the same as a 308 bolt rifle shooting 175 matchkings when utilizing the 123 A-Max or 123 Scenar.
my come up to 1000 yards is 11 Mils with 2.7 mils for a full value 10 mph breeze correction. Shot it at 1000 yards a couple of months ago so the dope is verified spot on for my AR and load and works just fine to learn to read the wind. I utilized a 6.5 Grendel at one of the Rifles Only matches a few years back and finished around 15-19 spot (can't remember specifically) out of about 80 shooters and would have done much better if I hadn't broke a bolt and got a zero on the mover stage as a result.

At the moment I am working her on rapid deployment and run-n-gun type drills and trying to get her more comfortable with taking shots under a bit of stress. Maybe next year I will let her enter a tactical match or two to get her started.

What I can say from my experience so far is that the AR platform and 6.5 Grendel combination has been ideal for her and she loves it.

 

[rougeqc21]

Just adding my .02, I've had an 18'' JP CTR-02 in 6.5G for just shy of a year now. Last I zeroed her, Density Altitude was 1928, Baro 28.99 69F 62.4%H 15 shot string across a CED M2 at 2451 fps. This girl, has zero kick; given she's running the lmos, I've tuned the block and also have the captured spring. Cold bore, 750yds at 12 inch steel is a walk in the park and getting on at 1000 similarly doesn't break a sweat. My gf, my mom, and most other ladies have no qualms over shooting her after I've demonstrated that she doesn't buck by depressing the trigger while off the rifle. Only negative for a young one would be the weight of the system, but no, there is no recoil fear.

 

[AKONA]

Just adding my .02, I've had an 18'' JP CTR-02 in 6.5G for just shy of a year now. Last I zeroed her, Density Altitude was 1928, Baro 28.99 69F 62.4%H 15 shot string across a CED M2 at 2451 fps. This girl, has zero kick; given she's running the lmos, I've tuned the block and also have the captured spring. Cold bore, 750yds at 12 inch steel is a walk in the park and getting on at 1000 similarly doesn't break a sweat. My gf, my mom, and most other ladies have no qualms over shooting her after I've demonstrated that she doesn't buck by depressing the trigger while off the rifle. Only negative for a young one would be the weight of the system, but no, there is no recoil fear.

2451fps from an 18" barrel is more in line with what I get and others get. That's why I was surprised about the fast speeds of LRRPF52 from a 16" barrel that is 2 inch shorter and using the same factory ammo.
Even reloading we were unable to ever replicate the originally advertised AA speeds w/o getting into the red. I personally exchanged some notes with the creator of the grendel, Bill Alexander so
did others and as a result the original advertised data was reviewed and adjusted. We measured all the factory AA laods and also could not reproduced the originally advertised spreads. Nobody could.
So I don't know. This was in part, not totally, one of the reasons I built the 6mmBR and the 6.5mmBR. I simply cannot get close to the originally advertised speeds and the speeds I want from an LBC/Grendel.
I love the case, the accuracy and everything but it is a tad on the short side for me. For others might be ok. I can understand that since it is a pleasure to shoot no matter what.

 

[rougeqc21]

2451fps from an 18" barrel is more in line with what I get and others get.

Completely forgot to add: I was shooting factory loaded Hornady 123 SST.

 

[LRRPF52]

Each barrel will have its own characteristics with up to a 100fps variance. Hornady's 9th Edition used an 18" barrel for their testing. They show 2500fps with the 120-123gr class of bullets using 31.1gr of CFE at 2.245" COL, including the 120gr GMX monolith, then show 31.7gr CFE max for the 129gr SST, Interbond, and SP.

31.1gr of CFE gives me 2490fps easy from my 16". I have mass-produced 31.0gr and used it in DM Courses, and it is easy to hit 12" steel at 600yds with it. It was grouping 1" at 100yds in 20mph + full value wind conditions, with the dispersion mostly horizontal, and less than 1/2 vertical, using the same hold.

When I get my Lilja 16" and 18" barrels, it will be interesting to see the velocity differences between the 3. The factory Hornady 123gr A-MAX is clocking 2420fps average for at least one guy who bought one of the surplus 14.5" Saber barrels from Brownell's.

Some of the initial velocities advertised for the Grendel were from 28" F-Class bolt gun rifles that Arne Brennan was using, with the 130gr JLK's. If you load out to 2.270"-2.300" using LVR or CFE, you can push the 123gr-130gr pills into the high 2600's, and even break 2700fps, with a 24" barrel in the AR15.

I'm more interested in accuracy though, since the BC does a lot of work for you, but if I get both, I'm definitely not going to complain. This little $269 button-rifled ER Shaw AA barrel/bolt combo I have has shot from .79 to 1.2 MOA no matter what load/bullet I put through, from day 1, so I am a happy camper. This is just one example of 2 groups shot at 200yds off the bipod. Top is 1.7", bottom is 2.18":



This is how it shoots the Precision Firearms 123gr Moly Scenar factory load. This group had 7fps Extreme Spread:

 

[rougeqc21]

When I get my Lilja 16" and 18" barrels, it will be interesting to see the velocity differences between the 3.

How I wish I had gotten in on the 6.5 group buy for those barrels!

 

[45ar]

Yes, I found that CFE223 did not do well at all for me with the 107gr SMK, and another guy had similar results with the 100gr A-MAX. Velocities were all over the place.

However, it does to well with 100gr Barnes, and some lighter-weight 94gr experimental solids, so we're thinking that the start pressure of the solids, which resist swaging into the lands more, is giving the pressure that CFE needs to burn consistently, whereas the lighter cup & core pills don't fight it enough. I don't care about the copper fouling either. CFE seems to be the highest density, slower-burning powder that fills well in the Grendel case, and is very forgiving. Still not sure about temp sensitivity on it going down into low temps.

One powder I haven't worked with yet is AR Comp, which several people report is the best for accuracy for them across the board. It's an extruded, so that explains the consistency and temp stability. Some forum members here like Drifter really like it in the Grendel. As soon as I see some, I'll get it.

Were you in 1st Bat in the 1970's?

Hoot over on the 450BM site has a picture of a group using 27.5 grains ARcomp under a 123Amax that can be covered by a dime.It's one of the best groups I've seen and from a 24 inch shaw barrel.I think ARcomp is going to be the first powder I try.He says 6.5G is the most accurate out of the box he's shot.

 

[BoilerUP]

Bumping from the dead...

Looks like SAAMI 6x45mm has 0.050" freebore.

Assuming no mag length restrictions, can anybody help guide me to a way to estimate OAL with a 105 A-Max (or 105 Hybrid or 107 SMK) touching the lands?

 

[bustin]

You can always shoot reduced loads in a 6mm/6.5mm standard case size to make it recoil like a grendel and then work up as she gets used to recoil. You can't super charge a grendel and make it shoot like a 243 or similar.

Agree, A 243, or 6CM with a heavy barrel and 105s will really be competitive past 300yds and allow her room to grow. A Grendel would not be competitive past 300yds.

 

[997/2man]

...and a 77 will kill whitetail plenty dead...

No doubt, back from the dead. This was a good thread.

Piggies, too.