Throwing a little shade at some high end ARs

ut755ln

ut755ln

Rub some dirt on it
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Mar 24, 2011
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#1
Disclaimer - all of this is my personal experience -Disclaimer.

KAC SR15 I have approximately 1400 with this rifle and I sold it. My issue with it is that the gas system is very tightly tuned. By that I mean if I was not using very specific ammo, I had feeding failures. In addition, every three or four hundred rounds I needed to clean the rifle in order for it to function properly.

Radian Model 1 - I actually don't have anything bad to say about it. It has functioned flawlessly, a much better experience than the KAC for instance. I sold mine and replaced it with the ADM UIC MOD 2. For those that are not aware a Radian is effectively the ADM with very little difference but more than 1k more expensive. That is a lot of money for a roll mark.

Bravo Recce - I kind of liken this AR to a Glock. It is very rugged and it is very reliable. It just works. My issue with this one is that it is very over gassed and was just unpleasant to shoot. Sold it as well as I did not want to replace the fillings in my teeth.

A common positive of the above three rifles is that their brand names have real value. I made money on the KAC and Radian, the BCM was close to break even.

The three rifles that I am currently rotating through when I shoot now are

1) ADM UIC MOD 2 - if you like the Radian you will like this rifle. It is a little more gassed than the KAC but it is not unpleasant to shoot in anyway. It is a 1 MOA rifle at 100 yards and I now have a little more than 4k rounds through it without a failure of any kind including shooting some crap steel cased ammo, being rather rough with it, and not cleaning or maintaining it religiously.

2) JP - 15 Professional Rifle - As much as I like the ADM, the JP 15 is just a little better. The JP is a sub MOA rifle at 100 yards. On several occasions we have shot a couple of rifles and it prints the tightest group. The JP is the most pleasant to shoot, the tuning on the gas system (adjustable gas block) along with their bcg and their buffer (silent capture spring) are all very nice. I use a Dead Air can and the JP results in the least amount of gas in the face of all of the DI guns that I have shot. Unlike the ADM, I do need to put effort into cleaning/lubing this rifle.

3) The PWS Mk 114 Mod 2 - for those that don't know, this is an AR style platform that utilizes a long stroke piston like an AKM. This is far and away my favorite rifle to shoot with a can and none of the DI rifles really compare. It has a 3 setting adjustable gas block and when you set it for suppressed you can just go to town with it. This rifle is currently at 5200 rounds and again not a single failure. Because most of the gas is vented up front, you almost never need to clean it. It is another accurate rifle in that it is 1 MOA with most of the ammunition we have used. My gripes are minor, I would recommend changing the trigger and it does not have a forward assist.
 
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#6
to me high end is kac and lmt and then all the rest lol

kac shouldn't be that touchy, I'd send it back in. Mine ate everything, including left over breakfast, that she was fed. I've not head too many stories of having to have the right ammo for them either.
 
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#7
RickyRodney said:
Interesting how well the PWS worked for you compared to the SR15, typically I only ever read glowing reviews of the SR-15.
Click to expand...
This is a very general comment but piston rifles almost always work better with cans because of where both systems vent the gas. I would guess the same is probably true for the HK, POF, LWRC, SIG and any other piston ARs.
 
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#8
RUTGERS95 said:
to me high end is kac and lmt and then all the rest lol

kac shouldn't be that touchy, I'd send it back in. Mine ate everything, including left over breakfast, that she was fed. I've not head too many stories of having to have the right ammo for them either.
Click to expand...
I have seen the KAC issue twice, I sold mine. I think that there are a lot of high end ARs in no particular order...
Noveske, LWRC, LMT, JP, HK, Radian to name a few.

Just so that you know my Neanderthal thought process with ARs, to me the most important thing is that when you pull the trigger they go bang. I am the same way with pistols which is why I am a Glock guy. My hunt for a favorite AR has entailed me looking for the softest shooting most controllable rifle that is bomb proof reliable. I am willing to give up some on weight, accuracy, recoil mitigation in exchange for it working no matter what.
 
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#11
Is this the portion of the thread where I say

“My PSA is just as good at a fraction of the price”???

PSA and MP15 Sport II for the win!!
C03D9896-D0FF-4CD1-AEA7-FF0D23C26EE0.gif
 
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#12
ut755ln said:
Disclaimer - all of this is my personal experience -Disclaimer.

KAC SR15 I have approximately 1400 with this rifle and I sold it. My issue with it is that the gas system is very tightly tuned. By that I mean if I was not using very specific ammo, I had feeding failures. In addition, every three or four hundred rounds I needed to clean the rifle in order for it to function properly.

Radian Model 1 - I actually don't have anything bad to say about it. It has functioned flawlessly, a much better experience than the KAC for instance. I sold mine and replaced it with the ADM UIC MOD 2. For those that are not aware a Radian is effectively the ADM with very little difference but more than 1k more expensive. That is a lot of money for a roll mark.

Bravo Recce - I kind of liken this AR to a Glock. It is very rugged and it is very reliable. It just works. My issue with this one is that it is very over gassed and was just unpleasant to shoot. Sold it as well as I did not want to replace the fillings in my teeth.

A common positive of the above three rifles is that their brand names have real value. I made money on the KAC and Radian, the BCM was close to break even.

The three rifles that I am currently rotating through when I shoot now are

1) ADM UIC MOD 2 - if you like the Radian you will like this rifle. It is a little more gassed than the KAC but it is not unpleasant to shoot in anyway. It is a 1 MOA rifle at 100 yards and I now have a little more than 4k rounds through it without a failure of any kind including shooting some crap steel cased ammo, being rather rough with it, and not cleaning or maintaining it religiously.

2) JP - 15 Professional Rifle - As much as I like the ADM, the JP 15 is just a little better. The JP is a sub MOA rifle at 100 yards. On several occasions we have shot a couple of rifles and it prints the tightest group. The JP is the most pleasant to shoot, the tuning on the gas system (adjustable gas block) along with their bcg and their buffer (silent capture spring) are all very nice. I use a Dead Air can and the JP results in the least amount of gas in the face of all of the DI guns that I have shot. Unlike the ADM, I do need to put effort into cleaning/lubing this rifle.

3) The PWS Mk 114 Mod 2 - for those that don't know, this is an AR style platform that utilizes a long stroke piston like an AKM. This is far and away my favorite rifle to shoot with a can and none of the DI rifles really compare. It has a 3 setting adjustable gas block and when you set it for suppressed you can just go to town with it. This rifle is currently at 5200 rounds and again not a single failure. Because most of the gas is vented up front, you almost never need to clean it. It is another accurate rifle in that it is 1 MOA with most of the ammunition we have used. My gripes are minor, I would recommend changing the trigger and it does not have a forward assist.
Click to expand...
KAC rifles are known for that. The rule of thumb is that they require high dollar, higher grain ammunition. Everything about the rifle was designed to be a fighting rifle. And it’s price tag reflects that. It is not your traditional AR design.

As for the over gassed BCM, some companies are common for that. I run a DD M4V7. Daniel Defense is very well know to over gas their rifles. They do this as a guarantee that it will cycle all types of ammo ran through it. However, it is a tremendous rifle that is built for hard use and functionality. Mine runs like a dream with Black Hills 5.56 77gr OTM, and is very accurate.

Each rifle has its quarks, but the large name, high dollar AR’s are most generally popular and expensive for a reason.
 
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#14
ut755ln said:
KAC SR15 I have approximately 1400 with this rifle and I sold it. My issue with it is that the gas system is very tightly tuned. By that I mean if I was not using very specific ammo, I had feeding failures. In addition, every three or four hundred rounds I needed to clean the rifle in order for it to function properly.
Click to expand...
Obviously, your experience is your experience.........................

But,

I own 3 KAC's: an 18" LPR, & 2 16" rifles, a MOD1 & a MOD 2.

All perform flawlessly in all temps with full power 5.56 ammo, which is what they are designed for...........period, by design.

That's why they are caliber stamped 5.56.............

But, the 16's will OCCASIONALLY have failure to pick up a round & FTLB in cold temps IF fed low pressure 223 ammo, like PMC Gold; the 18" LPR is not as sensitive, at least the single example that I have.

The guns do what they are designed to do with the ammo they are designed for, either factory 5.56 or handloaded equivalent. They are not over-gassed to allow use of low pressure ammo in all conditions.........................by design.

As for cleaning, no issues at all..................go to the Henderson Range report on various long term tests & read what they did.

I'm not a fanboy, per se', just stating what I know.

MM
 
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#16
There is a weird cult around KAC products and KAC owners in general, if you say anything bad about their guns, be prepared to receive lots of hate.
I owned a SR15 Mod1 that I purchased brand new and experienced exactly what you have said. The E3 bolt in theory is superior to a standard bolt durability-wise I won't argue that but the gun itself was nothing special.

KAC themselves told me that their guns are calibrated to run PMC bronze via CS rep.
This fact has also been posted on ARFcom before as well by other owners.
 
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#21
SD Carpenter said:
Idk I'm only 3-4k rounds in and I have yet to have a malfunction in my sr-15 mod 2 16". I'm only shooting the cheapest random pile of crap ammo I can find during this madness since I don't reload 223.... Yet 😂.
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It'll shoot low pressure 223 stuff in warm temps.....................

MM
sickeness said:
There is a weird cult around KAC products and KAC owners in general, if you say anything bad about their guns, be prepared to receive lots of hate.
I owned a SR15 Mod1 that I purchased brand new and experienced exactly what you have said. The E3 bolt in theory is superior to a standard bolt durability-wise I won't argue that but the gun itself was nothing special.

KAC themselves told me that their guns are calibrated to run PMC bronze via CS rep.
This fact has also been posted on ARFcom before as well by other owners.
Click to expand...
I don't care what they told you, if you run low pressure ammo in cold conditions, you may have failures; warm weather, no.

I've seen it & experienced it.

Always possible that ammo varies somewhat lot to lot, so that can't be ruled out.

MM
 
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#23
SR-15 Mod 2 16"...flawless, but I do not feed it junk ammo, have no clue if it will run junk ammo and dont care to find out.

But maybe I am just lucky, my Noveske and Aero Precision run flawless also, once again no junk ammo.
 
#25
ut755ln said:
I have seen the KAC issue twice, I sold mine. I think that there are a lot of high end ARs in no particular order...
Noveske, LWRC, LMT, JP, HK, Radian to name a few.

Just so that you know my Neanderthal thought process with ARs, to me the most important thing is that when you pull the trigger they go bang. I am the same way with pistols which is why I am a Glock guy. My hunt for a favorite AR has entailed me looking for the softest shooting most controllable rifle that is bomb proof reliable. I am willing to give up some on weight, accuracy, recoil mitigation in exchange for it working no matter what.
Click to expand...
I'm right there with you, the only thing that matters 1st, 2nd, and 3rd is no click, the rest is gravy. I'm no AR snob in fact, One of my most trusted and accurate ARs was an older Bushmaster, better than many of my 'higher end' ARs. I will say though the only ARs I've never had issues with were my Kac, LMTs and Colts. que the colt haters. lol

I also run every type of ammo I can through them to insure they function properly. I find it comical people won't do this for fear of damaging or corrupting their rigs. I also don't lube (or rather it's so faint it's barely noticeable) for the first 500 or so rounds of any new rig or pistol as lube can mask problems. Then I wet them like a lady. haha I have a sig 320 that will only run wet/greased, only......
 
#27
I will say I do find it sort of ironic we spent a ton of money on high end rifles and then buy the cheapest ammo available.

As much as I like to throw shade on the high end rifles just for giggles, there is some credence to "paying for the rollmark", and you are also fighting the law of diminishing returns. The price doubles, but its only about a 10% increase in performance (if that).

And of course now that my bushmaster is old enough to buy a rifle--word on the street is he wouldn't buy that now--brands go up and down: Colt used to be dogshit, Bushmaster was prefered back in the day. Today, bushmaster is a laughing stock, Colt is held as a psuedo standard, plus we have a bajillion alternatives. 20 years ago would you buy a CZ as a handgun? Today I am fan club president--

Plus there is a ton of marketing. DD/KAC/Bravo all benefit from there "Warfighter Operators operating kit under hard use in the sandbox"

Home many of you bastards actually own a sandbox....

I guess its my way of saying its all BS, learn your rifle, fix the shit that doesn't work, upgrade what needs upgrading and if anyone laughs at your rollmark, remind that every time their gucci rifle shits the bed, that yours acutally works because it isn't a safe queen.
 
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#28
DocRDS said:
I will say I do find it sort of ironic we spent a ton of money on high end rifles and then buy the cheapest ammo available.

As much as I like to throw shade on the high end rifles just for giggles, there is some credence to "paying for the rollmark", and you are also fighting the law of diminishing returns. The price doubles, but its only about a 10% increase in performance (if that).

And of course now that my bushmaster is old enough to buy a rifle--word on the street is he wouldn't buy that now--brands go up and down: Colt used to be dogshit, Bushmaster was prefered back in the day. Today, bushmaster is a laughing stock, Colt is held as a psuedo standard, plus we have a bajillion alternatives. 20 years ago would you buy a CZ as a handgun? Today I am fan club president--

Plus there is a ton of marketing. DD/KAC/Bravo all benefit from there "Warfighter Operators operating kit under hard use in the sandbox"

Home many of you bastards actually own a sandbox....

I guess its my way of saying its all BS, learn your rifle, fix the shit that doesn't work, upgrade what needs upgrading and if anyone laughs at your rollmark, remind that every time their gucci rifle shits the bed, that yours acutally works because it isn't a safe queen.
Click to expand...
There is actual validity in a company charging more, and a consumer paying more, for a quality rifle. Training is key, but equipment quality is a factor.

Those higher end manufacturers tend to produce small batch, hand assembled products. Their QC tends to be tighter and their products are purpose driven. Actual professional end users tend to be heavily involved in the process of designing those rifles. The testing process for repeatable reliability also tends to be more in depth. The materials used tend to be made of stronger metals and alloys which also drives up the price. Anything from the BCG or barrel material/build quality, to the bolt catch quality differs between high end and lower end rifles. Staking gas keys, gas settings, etc. all tend to be a part of those differences as well.

I’m not saying you can’t get work done with an Aero Precision or even a S&W M&P Sport II. But the people who end up paying extra for higher end products (such as DD, KAC, LMT, LWRC, SOLGW, Giessele, etc.) want that extra amount of assurance that it will go bang and cycle ammo when it counts most. Though most of those end users aren’t using that product in a professional setting or been “in the sandbox”, doesn’t mean that their high end rifle doesn’t see hard use in training. The civilian world of training by experienced professionals is pretty popular.

Personally, my BRO and my DD get used hard. And have stood up way better than other lower end products that I have used in similar settings.

If you want to push the “just as good” or “paying for a name” idiology, I suggest running those rifles through a hard use, high round count training class to see where the differences are. Like I stated previously, those purchasing high end rifles tend to be purpose driven with hard use in mind.
 
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#29
DocRDS said:
I will say I do find it sort of ironic we spent a ton of money on high end rifles and then buy the cheapest ammo available.

As much as I like to throw shade on the high end rifles just for giggles, there is some credence to "paying for the rollmark", and you are also fighting the law of diminishing returns. The price doubles, but its only about a 10% increase in performance (if that).

And of course now that my bushmaster is old enough to buy a rifle--word on the street is he wouldn't buy that now--brands go up and down: Colt used to be dogshit, Bushmaster was prefered back in the day. Today, bushmaster is a laughing stock, Colt is held as a psuedo standard, plus we have a bajillion alternatives. 20 years ago would you buy a CZ as a handgun? Today I am fan club president--

Plus there is a ton of marketing. DD/KAC/Bravo all benefit from there "Warfighter Operators operating kit under hard use in the sandbox"

Home many of you bastards actually own a sandbox....

I guess its my way of saying its all BS, learn your rifle, fix the shit that doesn't work, upgrade what needs upgrading and if anyone laughs at your rollmark, remind that every time their gucci rifle shits the bed, that yours acutally works because it isn't a safe queen.
Click to expand...
testify brother! well said
 
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#30
Cowboy605 said:
There is actual validity in a company charging more, and a consumer paying more, for a quality rifle. Training is key, but equipment quality is a factor.

Those higher end manufacturers tend to produce small batch, hand assembled products. Their QC tends to be tighter and their products are purpose driven. Actual professional end users tend to be heavily involved in the process of designing those rifles. The testing process for repeatable reliability also tends to be more in depth. The materials used tend to be made of stronger metals and alloys which also drives up the price. Anything from the BCG or barrel material/build quality, to the bolt catch quality differs between high end and lower end rifles. Staking gas keys, gas settings, etc. all tend to be a part of those differences as well.

I’m not saying you can’t get work done with an Aero Precision or even a S&W M&P Sport II. But the people who end up paying extra for higher end products (such as DD, KAC, LMT, LWRC, SOLGW, Giessele, etc.) want that extra amount of assurance that it will go bang and cycle ammo when it counts most. Though most of those end users aren’t using that product in a professional setting or been “in the sandbox”, doesn’t mean that their high end rifle doesn’t see hard use in training. The civilian world of training by experienced professionals is pretty popular.

Personally, my BRO and my DD get used hard. And have stood up way better than other lower end products that I have used in similar settings.

If you want to push the “just as good” or “paying for a name” idiology, I suggest running those rifles through a hard use, high round count training class to see where the differences are. Like I stated previously, those purchasing high end rifles tend to be purpose driven with hard use in mind.
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Actually I'm not in the "just as good" camp. I'm in the "shoot the piss outta your rifle camp" (AKA know your rifle). And you don't have to pay top dollar for quality.

Read very carefully: Quality has a price, but price doesn't equal quality.

I'm wery wery sorry I didn't buy a LMT/DD/KAC.

They kinda didn't exist back then (or weren't selling to the public).
 
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#31
Cowboy605 said:
There is actual validity in a company charging more, and a consumer paying more, for a quality rifle. Training is key, but equipment quality is a factor.

Those higher end manufacturers tend to produce small batch, hand assembled products. Their QC tends to be tighter and their products are purpose driven. Actual professional end users tend to be heavily involved in the process of designing those rifles. The testing process for repeatable reliability also tends to be more in depth. The materials used tend to be made of stronger metals and alloys which also drives up the price. Anything from the BCG or barrel material/build quality, to the bolt catch quality differs between high end and lower end rifles. Staking gas keys, gas settings, etc. all tend to be a part of those differences as well.

I’m not saying you can’t get work done with an Aero Precision or even a S&W M&P Sport II. But the people who end up paying extra for higher end products (such as DD, KAC, LMT, LWRC, SOLGW, Giessele, etc.) want that extra amount of assurance that it will go bang and cycle ammo when it counts most. Though most of those end users aren’t using that product in a professional setting or been “in the sandbox”, doesn’t mean that their high end rifle doesn’t see hard use in training. The civilian world of training by experienced professionals is pretty popular.

Personally, my BRO and my DD get used hard. And have stood up way better than other lower end products that I have used in similar settings.

If you want to push the “just as good” or “paying for a name” idiology, I suggest running those rifles through a hard use, high round count training class to see where the differences are. Like I stated previously, those purchasing high end rifles tend to be purpose driven with hard use in mind.
Click to expand...
I'll say I've had almost every rifle under the sun with very few exceptions and I've had issues with high and low. This isn't 2000 any longer where the standard is pretty set. Marketing and price have huge psychological factors for people when buying. I've seen BCM go down where the guy with the m&p you mentioned above trucked through 3 days with no hiccups. There is no golden rule save one; buy a quality lpk

The most underrated and underappreciated imho is Aero, they make very good quality components relative to price imho
 
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#32
I have a SR15 Mod1 upper that runs great with my Vltor A5. Hardly even recoils at all. To be fair, I don’t remember the last time I shot weak .223 out of it though.

I used to to live in Wisconsin, so I know about shooting in the cold, and never had an issue with any ammo.

Now it’s suppressed 100% of the time (Surefire mini) and never cleaned. When I bought it I was aware that it preferred 5.56 pressure ammo so that’s what I use. With IMI 77gr and Swedish Winchester 62gr OTM I can pull off some sub-moa groups.

Overall, I’m happy with the gun. I consider the suppressed SR15 w/ Vltor A5 the perfect set up.

Is it needed? No. I’ll never shoot enough to reap it’s benefits over a BCM or whatever AR with a standard bolt, but that’s not the point, for me.
 
#33
I’m not going to down the “just as good as” road, but the Rock River Predator Pursuit paired with a Bushy lower, Geisle trigger and scs have been stellar throughout multiple high round count classes, several Guardian matches and squirrel shooting with lead free Barnes Varmint bullets. At this time I don’t have any high end AR’s, but can’t think of a single reason to spend more.
 
#34
Just a quick update. I am glad everyone likes their rifles. Maybe my issue with the KAC is that I was not shooting 77 grain true milspec. I was telling my son about this thread and he is currently serving and was laughing at me because his CQB rifle has a lot of BCM in it. He read my review of the BCM and called me a pussy. :)
 
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#35
ut755ln said:
Just a quick update. I am glad everyone likes their rifles. Maybe my issue with the KAC is that I was not shooting 77 grain true milspec. I was telling my son about this thread and he is currently serving and was laughing at me because his CQB rifle has a lot of BCM in it. He read my review of the BCM and called me a pussy. :)
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tell him to be safe!
 
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#37
IMHO, after having owned and run the crap out of one or more of pretty much all the names mentioned… in many cases there is very little that distinguishes a $$$ Gucci AR from a $400 AR (they might even have been made at the same place on the same machine). Either example can suck ass or run great out of the box, regardless of price.

When one buys a KAC, Geissele, Radian, etc… yes, you’re paying for the name, full stop, don’t kid yourself.

Does spending more make it more likely that it’ll be put together correctly? Yes. Always? Nope.
 
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#38
CK1.0 said:
IMHO, after having owned and run the crap out of one or more of pretty much all the names mentioned… in many cases there is very little that distinguishes a $$$ Gucci AR from a $400 AR (they might even have been made at the same place on the same machine). Either example can suck ass or run great out of the box, regardless of price.

When one buys a KAC, Geissele, Radian, etc… yes, you’re paying for the name, full stop, don’t kid yourself.

Does spending more make it more likely that it’ll be put together correctly? Yes. Always? Nope.
Click to expand...
By your logic there is very little difference in any AR's other than price and name.
 
#39
RickyRodney said:
By your logic there is very little difference in any AR's other than price and name.
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I am not being snarky when I said this but if it is milspec, it is milspec despite the roll marks. Some of the higher end manufacturers are not milspec or 100% milspec. I thought about it, none of my ARs are milspec (ignoring the lack of a giggle switch).
 
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#41
RUTGERS95 said:
to me high end is kac and lmt and then all the rest lol

kac shouldn't be that touchy, I'd send it back in. Mine ate everything, including left over breakfast, that she was fed. I've not head too many stories of having to have the right ammo for them either.
Click to expand...

I've never had feeding issues with mine, nor do I clean it as much as I should.

Definitely not a picky gun from my experience.
 
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#42
ut755ln said:
KAC SR15 I have approximately 1400 with this rifle and I sold it.
Click to expand...

That 1400 is 1400 total rounds fired?

ut755ln said:
My issue with it is that the gas system is very tightly tuned. By that I mean if I was not using very specific ammo, I had feeding failures. In addition, every three or four hundred rounds I needed to clean the rifle in order for it to function properly.
Click to expand...

It is widely known that they are specifically designed to shoot M855/M193. It didn't need constant cleaning; it needed ammo it was built for.

Using anything else is like buying a Ferrari, ignoring the 'super premium fuel only' sticker when at the gas station and then bitching about a lack of performance.
 
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#43
TheGerman said:
That 1400 is 1400 total rounds fired?



It is widely known that they are specifically designed to shoot M855/M193. It didn't need constant cleaning; it needed ammo it was built for.

Using anything else is like buying a Ferrari, ignoring the 'super premium fuel only' sticker when at the gas station and then bitching about a lack of performance.
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A fitting analogy, it would perfect example of rating a weapon beyond use and intent. The knights guns are built for .Mil and .gov use and they will always have specific ammo, and it built to perform at a very high level with that ammo.

If you want a rifle for SHTF, then your intents and purposes are different. You want something that will digest anything. And in that case you have answered your own question and gone to a piston rifle IMHO.
 
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#45
i shoot a lot of high end shit. Some of it to destruction.

I found that once you spend $800 or so on an AR the outcomes at the end of the day start to even out a bit.

I’ve also seen dead KACs, dead LMTs, Dead HK 416s, and and and. I think the one that surprised me the most was the goddamn dead AI AXSR.

They don’t make things like they used to in some ways.

Also, I think I would rather rotate in a fresh Geissele Super Duty every 10,000 rounds than buy a KAC that might last 30,000 rounds for the same cost.
 
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#46
A typical first article sign off will run to 20k rounds of the customer specified ammunition with a minimum of three test units each firing that number, more often at least 7 rifles will be used. Cleaning intervals are given and we expect to see MRBS in the order of 30k. At this, certain test rifles do not experience a single malfunction. Rifles will not experience stoppages across a wide range of inclement environmental conditions and when exposed to heavy contamination, with the customer ammunition. Accuracy is specified and must be maintained over the trial with only minimum allowable degredation.

To set a rifle up like this so it can be fleet produced to the given performance level requires significant investment of resources.

This is rarely a concern for the individual consumer but should be considered when discussing some of the high end rifles.
 
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#48
bill alexander said:
A typical first article sign off will run to 20k rounds of the customer specified ammunition with a minimum of three test units each firing that number, more often at least 7 rifles will be used. Cleaning intervals are given and we expect to see MRBS in the order of 30k. At this, certain test rifles do not experience a single malfunction. Rifles will not experience stoppages across a wide range of inclement environmental conditions and when exposed to heavy contamination, with the customer ammunition. Accuracy is specified and must be maintained over the trial with only minimum allowable degredation.

To set a rifle up like this so it can be fleet produced to the given performance level requires significant investment of resources.

This is rarely a concern for the individual consumer but should be considered when discussing some of the high end rifles.
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That’s true. I have built some of the rest rigs for this kind of testing. It was very interesting work.

For example we made an automated trigger actuator and a sensor that detected bolt lock back - it enabled you to mount the gun and then have someone not technically inclined feed it and operate it. Then an engineer could be called in to look at any jams and the computer kept the log. Video was able to be reviewed etc. As well as thermal camera footage.

Similarly one gun had a special ruler laser engraved on it and a digital high speed camera that allowed us to measure bolt velocity on a graph in mm/s.

The first time we froze the whole rig it all went down cause the lube in the things gearbox wasn’t cold capable.

It’s almost more of a surprise how well parts guns generally work and how well lower end ARs work.
 
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#49
This is a random bit of info but I don’t care about high end ARs because I carried a sopmod block 2 m4 in the army during the Afg surge and it was a colt lower and upper with a DD barrel and hand guard. I’m not even sure it was a DD barrel. But everyone started kissing the DD ring because they were used by SOF but I don’t think they were even using complete guns from DD until around 2015 maybe. If it all.

So basically I came to a conclusion that it didn’t matter that much, since I fired something in the neighborhood of two total magazines in combat during the surge. And obviously others often used them a lot heavier in combat and I used it much heavier in training. This information is basically useless from any technical standpoint but I remember a lot things being more important to guys than the quality of their guns.

But now I am building a quality AR in an SPR style configuration and want it to be nice. So I think if it’s a rifle that needs to be used for something like that it’s all good but I think for a general purpose rifle then I’ll just buy a PSA. I realize I sound like a crotchety Vietnam vet but I remember carrying my gun way more than I shot it. And that was when my unit was involved in heavy combat. I know I’m pretty ignorant feel free to insult me
 
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#50
A typical first article sign off will run to 20k rounds of the customer specified ammunition with a minimum of three test units each firing that number, more often at least 7 rifles will be used. Cleaning intervals are given and we expect to see MRBS in the order of 30k. At this, certain test rifles do not experience a single malfunction. Rifles will not experience stoppages across a wide range of inclement environmental conditions and when exposed to heavy contamination, with the customer ammunition. Accuracy is specified and must be maintained over the trial with only minimum allowable degredation.
bill alexander said:
To set a rifle up like this so it can be fleet produced to the given performance level requires significant investment of resources.

This is rarely a concern for the individual consumer but should be considered when discussing some of the high end rifles.
Click to expand...
Good to see Bill posting here.
 
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