Time to start applying centerfire logic to .22 (was just zero, now expanded to other areas)

[Dthomas3523]

The subject of zero range keeps coming up for .22lr and the responses vary wildly. Which I find interesting because its almost universally accepted that a 100yd zero should be used for centerfire. The people who believe something like a 200yd zero is acceptable are in the very small minority (as far as serious precision shooters are concerned).

Yet there is no consensus on .22lr.

Let’s look at the two main reasons why we utilize a 100yd zero for centerfire:

1: environmentals don’t really affect this zero.

2: all adjustments for dope are up


So, let’s now apply this logic to rimfire with an experiment with your ballistic calculator:

Set you zero range to “zero yards” for your rimfire. Then set the wind speed to a 5mph crosswind. Set your target distance to 50yds. My calculator shows a .3 wind correction.

Now, take your centerfire rifle and do the same thing. Zero your zero range and input a 5mph crosswind. Input a 100yd target. I get .1mil correction. Now, keep increasing the distance until you get .3 (the same as 50 for centerfire).

I end up with a whopping 400yds. We would never, ever, ever recommend a 3-400 yd zero with a centerfire rifle.

Yet many of us are comfortable with a 50yd zero that is susceptible to the same wind deflection as 3-400yds in a centerfire.


Now, go back to your calculator with Rimfire and input a 0 zero range and a 50yd target range. This time, input a 10mph crosswind and hit enter.

I get a whopping .6mil !!!!!


Now let’s go back and use the same logic we do with a centerfire:

Low chance of environmentals
All up for dope

Using the 0 zero range, play around with numbers. I have found that 30yds has .2 wind deflection possible at 5mph and only .3 at a 10mph.

While also enabling dope to be all up.

25yds is .1 at 5mph and .3 at 10 mph. And is all up EXCEPT for 30yds which is only .1 down.

Also, before the argument is made that you can’t see adjustments on paper at closer range, I have no idea wtf that comes from. I can see the exact same adjustments as it’s a FFP optic and my adjustments move .1 just like anywhere else and match up to the ruler in my optic.


So basically, I’m saying that when utilizing the same logic as centerfire, you should be zero’ing at 25 or 30yds. Nothing else.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Also, for the most part, I get a pretty consistent 5:1 ratio from my 6mm to my .22

And I get about a 4:1 ratio with .308

Using those ratios, we are in the 20-25yd range for zero as well.

 

[Near miss]

This is a good topic.

My background on this:
Having multicaliber rimfire I do not have a "zero"
At 50m my 22LR click value is 0.8 indoors.
At 100m HMR has 0.4 outdoors to allow upwards travel for the hotter days.

But for the ballistic solvers I give the minimum zero range because that will give me more moving room for weather.

For example, I use Kestrel which does not have zero weather function in it.

If I set zero at 50m during summer, it will give me the same click value for me in the winter even the round is going super slow.

With 22LR you can easily see weather affecting POI even at close (50m) ranges.

So in addition to wind affecting POI, there is practically 100% reason in setting nearest zero you can, just to eliminate regular seasonal atmospheric (powder temp+air thickness) changes.

Is this making sense?

 

[littlepod]

I do my zero at 25 yards due to exactly what you said, trying to remove as much environmental factors as possible. What people fail to do at 25 is to shoot 5-10 shots and choose the average POI as their zero. Some people just do the bullseye drill and as long as it clips it, it's good enough. .09" per .1 mil is pretty small, but it's still measureable. So do 5 shots, measure the average POI, adjust towards the exact point of aim, to make sure your zero is perfect.

People who do a lazy 25 yard zero will then end up stating that they had to correct .3 mil at 100 yards on a windless day, when really their 25yd zero was just bad.

 

[MarkLeupold]

The subject of zero range keeps coming up for .22lr and the responses vary wildly. Which I find interesting because its almost universally accepted that a 100yd zero should be used for centerfire. The people who believe something like a 200yd zero is acceptable are in the very small minority (as far as serious precision shooters are concerned).

Yet there is no consensus on .22lr.

Let’s look at the two main reasons why we utilize a 100yd zero for centerfire:

1: environmentals don’t really affect this zero.

2: all adjustments for dope are up


So, let’s now apply this logic to rimfire with an experiment with your ballistic calculator:

Set you zero range to “zero yards” for your rimfire. Then set the wind speed to a 5mph crosswind. Set your target distance to 50yds. My calculator shows a .3 wind correction.

Now, take your centerfire rifle and do the same thing. Zero your zero range and input a 5mph crosswind. Input a 100yd target. I get .1mil correction. Now, keep increasing the distance until you get .3 (the same as 50 for centerfire).

I end up with a whopping 400yds. We would never, ever, ever recommend a 3-400 yd zero with a centerfire rifle.

Yet many of us are comfortable with a 50yd zero that is susceptible to the same wind deflection as 3-400yds in a centerfire.


Now, go back to your calculator with Rimfire and input a 0 zero range and a 50yd target range. This time, input a 10mph crosswind and hit enter.

I get a whopping .6mil !!!!!


Now let’s go back and use the same logic we do with a centerfire:

Low chance of environmentals
All up for dope

Using the 0 zero range, play around with numbers. I have found that 30yds has .2 wind deflection possible at 5mph and only .3 at a 10mph.

While also enabling dope to be all up.

25yds is .1 at 5mph and .3 at 10 mph. And is all up EXCEPT for 30yds which is only .1 down.

Also, before the argument is made that you can’t see adjustments on paper at closer range, I have no idea wtf that comes from. I can see the exact same adjustments as it’s a FFP optic and my adjustments move .1 just like anywhere else and match up to the ruler in my optic.


So basically, I’m saying that when utilizing the same logic as centerfire, you should be zero’ing at 25 or 30yds. Nothing else.

I definitely considered this a couple months ago. I don't have a .22 yet, but I've shot NRL22 matches with loaner rifles. I definitely agree with you that a 22 zero needs to reflect the same ideals of a centerfire zero. When I took a look at it, 30 yards seemed ideal because all adjustments were down, but not many places have a specific 30 yard line if you're contained to flat, square ranges. 25 yards makes more sense for the application.

I think people zero at 50 mainly because that's what everyone else does. Data gets thrown around all the time at the matches I've attended because everyone basically uses the same come ups. .9 mil to 75 yards and 2.0 mil to 100 yards definitely seems like the standard (and makes hold-over really easy if you're at those even yardage increments). If you do have to come in to 25-30 yards where you will be holding under, I think people generally worry about it less because it's closer. Even a quarter inch target is absorbing that .3 mil hold at that range.

50 yard zero just makes it easy and convenient for everyone, and it would be a good zero if not for the environmental factors when zeroing.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

I've said it before and I'll say it now. I see no reason to not use a 25 yard zero. None. At all.

It's only like .1 MIL difference at 400 between a 25 and 50. You don't stretch it enough to justify it.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I definitely considered this a couple months ago. I don't have a .22 yet, but I've shot NRL22 matches with loaner rifles. I definitely agree with you that a 22 zero needs to reflect the same ideals of a centerfire zero. When I took a look at it, 30 yards seemed ideal because all adjustments were down, but not many places have a specific 30 yard line if you're contained to flat, square ranges. 25 yards makes more sense for the application.

I think people zero at 50 mainly because that's what everyone else does. Data gets thrown around all the time at the matches I've attended because everyone basically uses the same come ups. .9 mil to 75 yards and 2.0 mil to 100 yards definitely seems like the standard (and makes hold-over really easy if you're at those even yardage increments). If you do have to come in to 25-30 yards where you will be holding under, I think people generally worry about it less because it's closer. Even a quarter inch target is absorbing that .3 mil hold at that range.

50 yard zero just makes it easy and convenient for everyone, and it would be a good zero if not for the environmental factors when zeroing.

That’s part of my point. 50yd is just “what everyone does” and has become dogma.

Just like with centerfire, we need to start asking “why.” And if there isn’t a good answer for it, we need to change.

 

[Dthomas3523]

This is a good topic.

My background on this:
Having multicaliber rimfire I do not have a "zero"
At 50m my 22LR click value is 0.8 indoors.
At 100m HMR has 0.4 outdoors to allow upwards travel for the hotter days.

But for the ballistic solvers I give the minimum zero range because that will give me more moving room for weather.

For example, I use Kestrel which does not have zero weather function in it.

If I set zero at 50m during summer, it will give me the same click value for me in the winter even the round is going super slow.

With 22LR you can easily see weather affecting POI even at close (50m) ranges.

So in addition to wind affecting POI, there is practically 100% reason in setting nearest zero you can, just to eliminate regular seasonal atmospheric (powder temp+air thickness) changes.

Is this making sense?

If I’m reading this right, you’re basically saying you set your zero based on what your ammo does in different seasons of the year.

If so, I’d point you back towards centerfire. We still zero at 100 based on the reasons already discussed and then we either have dope cards for Density Altitude differences or let our software do it.

You don’t change your zero distance on a centerfire based on the time of year.

If you have access to an indoor range that goes to 50m, I could be persuaded to agree with a 50m zero. But if it’s outside, I would stay away from it and get closer.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

I use 50 yards for a couple reasons:

1. My range has benches for 50, 100-300 yards. I can't put anything closer than that, otherwise i have to drive across the facility and hope a bay is open.

2. My scope's parallax bottoms out at about 45 yards. If we have a stage at a match closer than 50 yards I'll dial the mag down and deal with any parallax issues. When zeroing though I like to be at high mag (15x). It would be easy to say get a scope that will closer but that's not a priority now.

I'm not invalidating what's been written above, it's very good work showing the correlation in zero diatances. I'm stating my reasons for using the 50 yard zero with my rimfire to help add some perspective.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I use 50 yards for a couple reasons:

1. My range has benches for 50, 100-300 yards. I can't put anything closer than that, otherwise i have to drive across the facility and hope a bay is open.

2. My scope's parallax bottoms out at about 45 yards. If we have a stage at a match closer than 50 yards I'll dial the mag down and deal with any parallax issues. When zeroing though I like to be at high mag (15x). It would be easy to say get a scope that will closer but that's not a priority now.

I'm not invalidating what's been written above, it's very good work showing the correlation in zero diatances. I'm stating my reasons for using the 50 yard zero with my rimfire to help add some perspective.

I agree with both points. If it’s just not possible for you to zero closer, then so be it. You have to do what you have to do.

And I would definitely never zero closer than you can parallax down to. I’m making an assumption that most are using an optic that can parallax at 25 or closer.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I ended up buying three 10-22's last fall, all got Vortex 3 moa dots. I dicked around with where the zero should be, but a 3 moa dot covers 1.5" at 50 yards. after all my calcs, 15 yards is a 50 yard zero, plus it made it way easier for me. I think I zeroed the scope for mine at 50 on a nice day. I can dial to 500 on warm days, but I am not as serious as most of you concerning this, just having fun with kids.
One is 15 yard zero, the other 50 yard.

 

[Near miss]

If I’m reading this right, you’re basically saying you set your zero based on what your ammo does in different seasons of the year.

If so, I’d point you back towards centerfire. We still zero at 100 based on the reasons already discussed and then we either have dope cards for Density Altitude differences or let our software do it.

You don’t change your zero distance on a centerfire based on the time of year.

If you have access to an indoor range that goes to 50m, I could be persuaded to agree with a 50m zero. But if it’s outside, I would stay away from it and get closer.

Sorry I explained it badly. Here comes another rather poor attempt.

It is a virtual zero as it is set offset vertically. (I never dial 0 with 22LR)
It is also static, I do not make any changes to scope or solver because of seasons. But Kestrel gives me estimate dial values to accomodate different weather modes.

Eg. Kestrel gives 150m/165yds summer at approx 5.6mil and in the winter 6.3 to 6.5 and way beyond (0.8mil at 50m)

I try to make my Kestrel dope so good I can make first round hits in all weather out to different distances. With 25m zero that applies to 50m targets also and lets me see and test the difference in POI.

50m zero offers the shooter nothing more that 25m gives. After 25m zero I just true it to 50.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Summary: Break down your 'zero' into left-right and elevation components.

I was getting all flumoxed by wind, and we have plenty or wind in CO. I started to think that my barrel, scope/mount weren't in the same 'plane' and like a cross eyed kid the zero would meander left and right. I started thinking that my 50 yard zero always had some wind in it, and what I was doing was building in wind- north facing range and standard wind direction- to all my zeros, but when that wind/direction wasn't there, wind calls didn't make sense.

So I decided to make sure that wind wasn't in the zero. I 'zeroed' the rifle at the scope minimum focus distance with not a point, but a vertical line. That was at about 20 yards in a 3 sided berm, to negate any wind that might be still there.

This way I know my left-right is dead on, then I can zero at 50 yards for elevation.

Time of day and temp change a 200 yard zero about a mil from a cool morning to a warm, so elevation past 100 is always an interesting DOPE.

It seems to have helped. I don't get weird left-right movement on POI.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Summary: Break down your 'zero' into left-right and elevation components.

I was getting all flumoxed by wind, and we have plenty or wind in CO. I started to think that my barrel, scope/mount weren't in the same 'plane' and like a cross eyed kid the zero would meander left and right. I started thinking that my 50 yard zero always had some wind in it, and what I was doing was building in wind- north facing range and standard wind direction- to all my zeros, but when that wind/direction wasn't there, wind calls didn't make sense.

So I decided to make sure that wind wasn't in the zero. I 'zeroed' the rifle at the scope minimum focus distance with not a point, but a vertical line. That was at about 20 yards in a 3 sided berm, to negate any wind that might be still there.

This way I know my left-right is dead on, then I can zero at 50 yards for elevation.

Time of day and temp change a 200 yard zero about a mil from a cool morning to a warm, so elevation past 100 is always an interesting DOPE.

It seems to have helped. I don't get weird left-right movement on POI.

What’s the point of going out to 50 after you already have a 20yd zero?

There’s really no reason not to just use your 20yd zero and run with that in your software. Unless you’re shooting something like 50yd benchrest and want to be sure you are absolutely dead on.

 

[A&8's]

Trying to wrap my head around this and also have it relate to what “mph” RF I have, like for my CF. Playing with the numbers, like you said @Dthomas3523, this is what I came up with.

With a 40y zero, everything is up in elevation. And with adding a 6mph full value wind, starting at 10y, for every 10 yards (up to 100y), I need a tenth wind. So, if think of this as a “6mph” gun, it’s easy to remember, as my 6.5CM is a “6mph” gun. Add a tenth for every 10y on RF....add a tenth for every 100y on CF. Easy-peazy.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Trying to wrap my head around this and also have it relate to what “mph” RF I have, like for my CF. Playing with the numbers, like you said @Dthomas3523, this is what I came up with.

With a 40y zero, everything is up in elevation. And with adding a 6mph full value wind, starting at 10y, for every 10 yards (up to 100y), I need a tenth wind. So, if think of this as a “6mph” gun, it’s easy to remember, as my 6.5CM is a “6mph” gun. Add a tenth for every 10y on RF....add a tenth for every 100y on CF. Easy-peazy.
View attachment 7263708
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Good stuff.

Have you run numbers at closer zero like 25 or 30?

As you can see, you’re gaining .1 every 10yds for that 6mph. So, the closer you can get your zero, the less likely you’ll have wind built into it.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

What’s the point of going out to 50 after you already have a 20yd zero?

There’s really no reason not to just use your 20yd zero and run with that in your software. Unless you’re shooting something like 50yd benchrest and want to be sure you are absolutely dead on.

A 50 yard zero makes the dope for a 22lr equal about 1/4 that of a 308. It's not perfect at shorter distances, but it works out pretty well, when I tried to get them line up. I didn't really try another zero, there might be an optimal one, especially when trying to get 22lr to match up to 6.5CM or something else.

I inherently like longer distance zeros since there are more 'degrees of freedom' on where the bullet lands and the clicks on the scope. With out the detrimental aspects of a longer zero.

At least, that is where my head is, now.

 

[A&8's]

Good stuff.

Have you run numbers at closer zero like 25 or 30?

As you can see, you’re gaining .1 every 10yds for that 6mph. So, the closer you can get your zero, the less likely you’ll have wind built into it.

Yeah. At 35 or 40 yard zero, everything from 10y and out, is all UP. But at 30y zero, 35 and 40y is a tenth down.
Since a common yardage for nrl22 stages seems to be 35y (particularly paper stages), a 35 or 40y zero works perfect.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Yeah. At 35 or 40 yard zero, everything from 10y and out, is all UP. But at 30y zero, 35 and 40y is a tenth down.
Since a common yardage for nrl22 stages seems to be 35y (particularly paper stages), a 35 or 40y zero works perfect.

I’ve all but stopped shooting nrl22. I’ve been mainly focusing on .22prs as Nrl is only 5 stages and it’s the same tired shit every month it seems like. Good idea for them to start. But they need to adapt. It’s popularity is waning down here.

But I agree, if a common yardage is used in a match your participate in, and you can get a good zero at that range, go for it.

 

[A&8's]

I’ve all but stopped shooting nrl22. I’ve been mainly focusing on .22prs as Nrl is only 5 stages and it’s the same tired shit every month it seems like. Good idea for them to start. But they need to adapt. It’s popularity is waning down here.

But I agree, if a common yardage is used in a match your participate in, and you can get a good zero at that range, go for it.

I agree about the same ole same ole.
I run NRL22 “style” at my range. I usually have the monthly COF, in addition to another 3 to 5 stages that are my own. Those I stretch it out to 300y. Makes it fun for the kids and interesting for the adults, too.

 

[kthomas]

I’ve all but stopped shooting nrl22. I’ve been mainly focusing on .22prs as Nrl is only 5 stages and it’s the same tired shit every month it seems like. Good idea for them to start. But they need to adapt. It’s popularity is waning down here.

But I agree, if a common yardage is used in a match your participate in, and you can get a good zero at that range, go for it.

Texas should do a KO2M style .22 ELR competition one month to mix it up. Would be a fun and challenging change to the regularly scheduled programming.

 

[goneballistic]

Also, for the most part, I get a pretty consistent 5:1 ratio from my 6mm to my .22

And I get about a 4:1 ratio with .308

Using those ratios, we are in the 20-25yd range for zero as well.

I literally didn't understand any of that except the last sentence.

I'll read it slower.

I zero at 25yards for a couple reasons:

My 25 yard is my 50 yard zero. Both common distances in nrl22.

I'm up 1mil between 75-80 yards, another common distances
1.7 to 100 etc.

A 25 yard zero with great in nrl22

 

[Longshot231]

I literally didn't understand any of that except the last sentence.

I'll read it slower.

I zero at 25yards for a couple reasons:

My 25 yard is my 50 yard zero. Both common distances in nrl22.

I'm up 1mil between 75-80 yards, another common distances
1.7 to 100 etc.

A 25 yard zero with great in nrl22

My Anschutz sits in an MDT LSS chassis with a 20 MOA base and Burris Signature rings with another 40 MOA added for mom and the kids.

The scope height is 2.1 inches.

Using the JBM application reveals that with a 50 yard zero the bullet's path crosses the 27 yard line at the zero point as well.

I zero the rifle at 50 yards because the range that I shoot at has a 50 and 100 yard target frame. No intermediary distances are permitted.

I try to zero all my .22LR rifles at a time when the winds are calm. The range that I frequent is also enclosed on all four sides by hills and trees, which provide a nice windbreak.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I literally didn't understand any of that except the last sentence.

I'll read it slower.

I zero at 25yards for a couple reasons:

My 25 yard is my 50 yard zero. Both common distances in nrl22.

I'm up 1mil between 75-80 yards, another common distances
1.7 to 100 etc.

A 25 yard zero with great in nrl22

200 and 400 are common distances in PRS.

No one cares if something lines up there and rightfully so. It doesn’t matter. There’s zero reason to act like Rimfire is something different

While you are using 25, your reasons are flawed compared to how we look at precision shooting in general. Based on your reasons, you would change your zero if you shot something different as your zero works with nrl currently.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Texas should do a KO2M style .22 ELR competition one month to mix it up. Would be a fun and challenging change to the regularly scheduled programming.

Locally they have started a club level .22prs with a points race. Every month a match from 25-300 or anywhere in between. Have a couple movers available and quite a bit of props.

No buckets, ladders, paper, and unsupported every single month. I get why nrl22 started with that stuff, but they need to set up an avenue for those that wish to extend their .22 to a more realistic PRS equivalent. Otherwise I think within a year or two they will start bleeding members to local matches like this.

The format locally is really good and so far there hav been 30 or so Shooter’s per match the past couple months. Nrl22 has dwindled to 10 or 12 shooters now it seems.

 

[A&8's]

I literally didn't understand any of that except the last sentence.

I'll read it slower.

I zero at 25yards for a couple reasons:

My 25 yard is my 50 yard zero. Both common distances in nrl22.

I'm up 1mil between 75-80 yards, another common distances
1.7 to 100 etc.

A 25 yard zero with great in nrl22

200 and 400 are common distances in PRS.

No one cares if something lines up there and rightfully so. It doesn’t matter. There’s zero reason to act like Rimfire is something different

While you are using 25, your reasons are flawed compared to how we look at precision shooting in general. Based on your reasons, you would change your zero if you shot something different as your zero works with nrl currently.

@goneballistic: Agreed that 25 & 50 are common ranges. However, if you look at your come-ups with a 25y zero, there will be a couple areas, probably around 35-40y, that are actually DOWN a tenth. Like @Dthomas3523 said, we zero our CF rifles at 100y so everything is UP. Even under 100y, with a 100y zero everything is still up. This is for precison RF shooting, not hunting scenarios. True, we could sight our RF's in at a range of where most of our squirrels are shot, given the type of timber we hunt in. Just like we put a Battle Sight Zero on CF's used in typical combat situations. So, as the subject of this thread, we need to start thinking about our RF's more like our CF's.

Being able to relate the MPH of the RF, to me, is equally, if not more, important. unless we are shooting UKD's, which rarely happen in comp style RF matches, the wind is the only unknown. The come-ups are easy, since we can verify those with hard data. The wind, on the other hand, is harder to relate to. Especially with a bullet running subsonic. Having a "ratio" to compare our RF's to our CF's, it makes it easier to make a wind hold on the fly. As I mentioned above, my RF and CF are both "6mph" guns....just at a 5:1 ratio. My CF, in 5mph full wind, uses .1 wind hold at 100y, whereas my RF uses .1 at 50y.

The current "game", if you will, of modern rimfire shooting is like saying "This isn't your Grandpas 22LR." Because, in reality, not too many Grandpa's were shooting 22's at 300+ yards.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I like the idea of a mph on Rimfire. I need to mess around with this as well.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Ironically, my .22 optic gets the turrets spun far more than my centerfire. It’s rare with my 6mm that I’m over 8mil. I’m regularly past 10mil and anywhere in between with my centerfire.

So I’m always a bit stumped when people buy something like a vudoo, then go cheaper in the optic than they would on their centerfire rifle saying things like “it’s good enough for a .22.”

My .22 optic arguably takes more of a beating than my centerfire as far as internals go.

 

[A&8's]

Yeah, even though I'm using the "lowly" Athlon Ares ETR on my B14R. I guess it's still comparable to the ZCO on my custom CF. I still have about the same in glass as I do in rifle.

And I agree, my RF gets spun up/down farther than my CF.

 

[MarkLeupold]

Yeah, even though I'm using the "lowly" Athlon Ares ETR on my B14R. I guess it's still comparable to the ZCO on my custom CF. I still have about the same in glass as I do in rifle.

And I agree, my RF gets spun up/down farther than my CF.

Hell, when I get a 22, the ZCO is probably going to spend some time on there too! 25m parallax and a boatload of elevation travel is perfectly suited for a precision 22.

I like the idea of a mph on Rimfire. I need to mess around with this as well.

So the question here is what range increment to base a rimfire "mph" on? For centerfire, it lines up nicely that we use 100 yard increments and a 100 yard zero. It makes the math easy and convenient. With a rimfire zeroed at 25, do you start at 25 yards and work in increments of your zero range (like a centerfire), or do you work in increments of 10 yards, starting at 10 yards? Or do you do something different? One thing that can throw this off too is close range. Because of the way angles work, things inside 30 yards don't like to line up very linearly like they tend to at hundreds of yards. Wind holds at those distances would be a moot point, but it's something to consider when working out what mph gun you have. You almost need to ignore the holds under 30 yards, and find the trend at 50-100 yards to determine mph.

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

this is another one of those threads where all i can really contribute is a hearty THANK YOU for the information being shared.

 

[Lowlight]

I like this topic, I need to read it all

Great conversation to start @Dthomas3523

 

[A&8's]

Hell, when I get a 22, the ZCO is probably going to spend some time on there too! 25m parallax and a boatload of elevation travel is perfectly suited for a precision 22.



So the question here is what range increment to base a rimfire "mph" on? For centerfire, it lines up nicely that we use 100 yard increments and a 100 yard zero. It makes the math easy and convenient. With a rimfire zeroed at 25, do you start at 25 yards and work in increments of your zero range (like a centerfire), or do you work in increments of 10 yards, starting at 10 yards? Or do you do something different? One thing that can throw this off too is close range. Because of the way angles work, things inside 30 yards don't like to line up very linearly like they tend to at hundreds of yards. Wind holds at those distances would be a moot point, but it's something to consider when working out what mph gun you have. You almost need to ignore the holds under 30 yards, and find the trend at 50-100 yards to determine mph.

The Ares ETR para''ax down to 25y, too. The Argos BTR goes down to 10y, but mine has the old style washer type zero stop.


The zero range won't chage the MPH of the gun. For my RF, it goes in increments of 10y. See 3rd image in Post #15. Just like a CF, there is a point where it starts spreading. CF's seem to be 8-900y and again around 12-1300y. My RF starts to drift from the norm of .1/10y around 120y.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I like this topic, I need to read it all

Great conversation to start @Dthomas3523

It’s definitely still evolving.

But in the last few days we’ve had:

Weaponized math for .22
Standardized Zero Range for .22
Gun mph .22

discussions going on.


I think the revolution of .22 is going to be from the lessons already learned/still learning in centerfire. I’m finding they aren’t as different as a lot of people think.

 

[A&8's]

Ironically, my .22 optic gets the turrets spun far more than my centerfire. It’s rare with my 6mm that I’m over 8mil. I’m regularly past 10mil and anywhere in between with my centerfire.

So I’m always a bit stumped when people buy something like a vudoo, then go cheaper in the optic than they would on their centerfire rifle saying things like “it’s good enough for a .22.”

My .22 optic arguably takes more of a beating than my centerfire as far as internals go.

Now that I think about it (or go deeper down the rabbit hole lol), this is another reason to think of our RF's like we do our CF's. Think about, we check tracking on our CF scopes, to ensure we know the % of correction needed, if it doesn't track true. Since we're dialing more up's with RF's, it is paramount we know how our scope tracks, too.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Now that I think about it (or go deeper down the rabbit hole lol), this is another reason to think of our RF's like we do our CF's. Think about, we check tracking on our CF scopes, to ensure we know the % of correction needed, if it doesn't track true. Since we're dialing more up's with RF's, it is paramount we know how our scope tracks, too.

I treat my .22 exactly like I do my CF. I run a zco on it with arc rings.

Obviously this topic is more for people who take it seriously. If you’re just plinking or shooting squirrels off the back deck, this topic probably isn’t for that shooter.

But, if you take Rimfire seriously, you’re doing yourself a disservice by not doing all the same things you do with centerfire.

 

[littlepod]

I treat my .22 exactly like I do my CF. I run a zco on it with arc rings.

Obviously this topic is more for people who take it seriously. If you’re just plinking or shooting squirrels off the back deck, this topic probably isn’t for that shooter.

But, if you take Rimfire seriously, you’re doing yourself a disservice by not doing all the same things you do with centerfire.

I haven't shot a PRS match yet... but I've done quite a few rimfire PRS matches, so I'm in the opposite order, all I have is 200 yard ranges near me and I do a PRS style rimfire match probably 3x a month. 1 of them being NRL22 which is the least fun. I would love to do a 300-400 yard rimfire match, but we only have 200 yards to work with. All of our ranges are also nestled within housing communities so ricochets are concern and shooting off the range which makes the variety of targets really hard to get approved. We're working on it though!

We have a ton of PRS shooters in this area (Seattlw) who drive out 4 hours to Eastern washington for matches, but they don't seem to take that much interest in the local matches. It might be because, they're only 200 yards, and definitely the NRL22 stages are boring. I'm trying to start up a new match that is much more PRS like and get movers, bobbers, and fun barricades.

Question, as I transition to centerfire, how different is it? I'm just wondering what it'll be like to go shoot a center fire PRS match.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I haven't shot a PRS match yet... but I've done quite a few rimfire PRS matches, so I'm in the opposite order, all I have is 200 yard ranges near me and I do a PRS style rimfire match probably 3x a month. 1 of them being NRL22 which is the least fun. I would love to do a 300-400 yard rimfire match, but we only have 200 yards to work with. All of our ranges are also nestled within housing communities so ricochets are concern and shooting off the range which makes the variety of targets really hard to get approved. We're working on it though!

We have a ton of PRS shooters in this area (Seattlw) who drive out 4 hours to Eastern washington for matches, but they don't seem to take that much interest in the local matches. It might be because, they're only 200 yards, and definitely the NRL22 stages are boring. I'm trying to start up a new match that is much more PRS like and get movers, bobbers, and fun barricades.

Question, as I transition to centerfire, how different is it? I'm just wondering what it'll be like to go shoot a center fire PRS match.

Not all that much difference really as long as your current match is using props and such you see at regular prs matches.

One thing I do see is some shock or being unprepared if someone had only shot 5 stage Nrl22 matches to 100yds. There’s nothing wrong with that. But it won’t prepare you well for a prs match. Or even a .22prs match. Many shooters at last year’s nrl22 championship were way out of their comfort zone as it was a .22prs match basically out to 300yds and almost nothing like a regular nrl22 match.

If you’ve been shooting .22prs out to 200, you probably won’t feel out of place at a centerfire match. Things that will throw you off though:

Needing bearing protection and the concussion of all the centerfire rifles. It’s not a big deal, but it’s definitely different. I always feel slightly more relaxed at Rimfire matches because of the comfort level of no hearing protection and loud booms all over the place.

Recoil management. .22 makes you lazy and you get extremely accustomed to free recoil. Unless you have a 23lb rifle and running 6mm, you’re going to find yourself struggling with spotting your shots if you’ve gotten into the .22 free recoil habit. I still fight with this if I practice too much with my vudoo or shoot a few .22 matches in a row. I have now moved to training with centerfire mostly for this reason. .22 is great to teach people on and practice fundamentals starting out. But if you aren’t careful, you’ll develop a free recoil habit.

You want free recoil to be a tool and a choice, not a habit and a crutch.

Other than that, you won’t feel too out of place.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Guess I'm fortunate my gun club has a 100 yard indoor range.

I zero at 25 then go out to 100 to make sure windage isn't drifting one way or the other. .1mil at 25 doesn't really show up but will at 100.

For 6.5 CM, it's about 5:1 for .22 lr.

Still advocating for a 25 yard zero. Unless you don't have access to 25 yards. POA and POI stay within an inch, over and under so two total, to about 60 yards. No real need to hold under as anything that close will be near POA/POI. There's no real distance advantage beyond .1 mil.

I'll shoot any match I can get to. Experience is experience. But I gripe about anything over an hour.

I'm considering starting my own PRS style match but have no leads on a range. There's a large dairy just below me with A LOT of land and I hear them shooting often. Maybe I'll hit them up. It'd be like a 5-10 minute ride and half of that would be on their property.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I like this topic, I need to read it all

Great conversation to start @Dthomas3523

There is always Hoser's match down at PWSA, and the CRC Prairie Dog match is looking to start up in the spring. The PD match isn't as PRSish, but it is a great work out on 22 from 25-200 yards.

Between all the new guns, the new potential ammo, optimized barrel twist and the number of matches all around, it will be interesting to see how much bigger and all the changes in the next 12-18 months.

 

[Lowlight]

I shot the Byers PDM, it's not something I attend, have shot Pawnee, and Greenmill has a 22 match now

The Byers stuff would benefit from a .22 match vs their steel match, that is boring and attracts very few anymore

I have my own private range I don't need to worry about the public stuff and with my travel and training schedule I cannot invest in competing, I have to just shoot them when I can.

But we are doing more and more 22 stuff and this week we started working on range again, we've mapped out a 22 section

 

[Jefe's Dope]

There is always Hoser's match down at PWSA, and the CRC Prairie Dog match is looking to start up in the spring. The PD match isn't as PRSish, but it is a great work out on 22 from 25-200 yards.

Between all the new guns, the new potential ammo, optimized barrel twist and the number of matches all around, it will be interesting to see how much bigger and all the changes in the next 12-18 months.

Can you PM me info on the PD shoot?

 

[Lowlight]

It' s usually mentioned in the CRC Newsletter, I think it is the 3rd or 4th Saturday of the month or something, but they do change it every now and then so watch the newsletter

Shot on the steel silhouette range, set up around 8:30 starts at 9

 

[Dthomas3523]

Hell, when I get a 22, the ZCO is probably going to spend some time on there too! 25m parallax and a boatload of elevation travel is perfectly suited for a precision 22.



So the question here is what range increment to base a rimfire "mph" on? For centerfire, it lines up nicely that we use 100 yard increments and a 100 yard zero. It makes the math easy and convenient. With a rimfire zeroed at 25, do you start at 25 yards and work in increments of your zero range (like a centerfire), or do you work in increments of 10 yards, starting at 10 yards? Or do you do something different? One thing that can throw this off too is close range. Because of the way angles work, things inside 30 yards don't like to line up very linearly like they tend to at hundreds of yards. Wind holds at those distances would be a moot point, but it's something to consider when working out what mph gun you have. You almost need to ignore the holds under 30 yards, and find the trend at 50-100 yards to determine mph.

Looks like 10yds is the spot. But if things scale linearly from centerfire, we might be able to do 20 or 25yds.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Here’s 20yd increments. This is just with StrelokPro and supplied sk ammo data. I need to check my kestrel for trued data later.

5mph wind. 20yd increments.

The theory is solid.

 

[dinc]

When I first started long range precision, moving from High Power Rifle Across the Course Matches, it was at Sac Valley shooting the Long Range Tactical Match (what the Nor-Cal matches grew from). Shot the B-27 out to 1000 yards (look at Nor-Cal's monthly matches). If you print out a PDF of a B-27 target onto 8.5x11 paper it's about a perfect 1/4 size. Shooting that 1/4 B-27 every 25 yards out to 250 yards just about perfectly matches what shooting a full size target out to 1k with a 308 would be like. You have to adjust for distance and the wind will mess you up. Try it.

 

[meestermeetch]

DThomas, this is rad. Thanks for sharing. I like the idea of treating all my guns, dope and gear the same, ideologically and in practice. I certainly try to. My experience is below and I have a 50 yard zero, this is my first .22lr set up for precision and not plinking. And like my first CF (.308) I set up for precision it seems I made some similar mistakes. The .308 had a 200 yard zero until I learned better at a match... Lol.

I also have my .22lr zeroed at 50, because that is what's available to me and the range I zero at which has 50, 100, 200 but not other lengths (not where I shoot matches RF or CF) has it's 50 sheltered from the wind on 3 sides and the top. Plus it is what I am able to shoot at most, of I am for instance lot testing. Or shooting groups for recreation with others. Since most folks don't shoot as much NRL or PRS style things and most local ranges don't support it anyway.

For me per geoballistics within all reasonable atmospherics, my 25 yard hold is .15-.25 up from my 50. Which equates to .135-.225 inches. Not huge but bigger than I expected. Regardless that's an amount I can hold.

However the next time I am a range I can shoot at 25 yards I will test and work to correct any left to right issues in my zero. This might covence me to change over, but having to dial for my most common range sorta sucks. And based on fiddling with geoballistics it makes me have to dial even more extreme numbers for the up close shots on squirrels in the back yard (6-20 yards)

One additional advantage I can see is less vertical dispersion from ES at 25. I can see holes at 50 and when I know it broke clean but the shot is .75 low I precieve it's the ammo.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I shot the Byers PDM, it's not something I attend, have shot Pawnee, and Greenmill has a 22 match now

The Byers stuff would benefit from a .22 match vs their steel match, that is boring and attracts very few anymore

I have my own private range I don't need to worry about the public stuff and with my travel and training schedule I cannot invest in competing, I have to just shoot them when I can.

But we are doing more and more 22 stuff and this week we started working on range again, we've mapped out a 22 section

Can you PM me info on the PD shoot?

It' s usually mentioned in the CRC Newsletter, I think it is the 3rd or 4th Saturday of the month or something, but they do change it every now and then so watch the newsletter

Shot on the steel silhouette range, set up around 8:30 starts at 9

Heck, if I could have my own 22 range, my 22s would never leave the house...

The old one died about a year ago. TigerShilone is bringing it back, looks like it is on the schedule for June14th at the Sheutzen range, where it used to be at the 200yrd last 'berm'. crci.org has the schedule- though it says 2019, not 2020.

@Tiger_Shilone Dave, you have any comments?

 

[goneballistic]

@goneballistic: Agreed that 25 & 50 are common ranges. However, if you look at your come-ups with a 25y zero, there will be a couple areas, probably around 35-40y, that are actually DOWN a tenth. Like @Dthomas3523 said, we zero our CF rifles at 100y so everything is UP. Even under 100y, with a 100y zero everything is still up. This is for precison RF shooting, not hunting scenarios. True, we could sight our RF's in at a range of where most of our squirrels are shot, given the type of timber we hunt in. Just like we put a Battle Sight Zero on CF's used in typical combat situations. So, as the subject of this thread, we need to start thinking about our RF's more like our CF's.

Being able to relate the MPH of the RF, to me, is equally, if not more, important. unless we are shooting UKD's, which rarely happen in comp style RF matches, the wind is the only unknown. The come-ups are easy, since we can verify those with hard data. The wind, on the other hand, is harder to relate to. Especially with a bullet running subsonic. Having a "ratio" to compare our RF's to our CF's, it makes it easier to make a wind hold on the fly. As I mentioned above, my RF and CF are both "6mph" guns....just at a 5:1 ratio. My CF, in 5mph full wind, uses .1 wind hold at 100y, whereas my RF uses .1 at 50y.

The current "game", if you will, of modern rimfire shooting is like saying "This isn't your Grandpas 22LR." Because, in reality, not too many Grandpa's were shooting 22's at 300+ yards.

That's accurate, I'm -.1mil at 35 and -.2 mil at 40. Back to zero or a butt hair high at 50.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Just checked my kestrel with my true data.

I can make 4 and 5mph wind work in 20 and 25yd increments respectively.

10yd increments didn’t seem to work out.

So, at the moment, I’d say you have to add an extra step from centerfire. You will need to play with wind speed AND distance interval for your particular rifle. But it’s pretty easy.