Rifle Scopes Totally disgusted with Leupold

#301
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Sell what you use, and use what you sell!

Tell your customers your first hand experiences, and how other customers of yours experiences, anything with the word "TACTICAL" and "China" marked on it will not be part of the deal from you, stand up and be a man of principles. Leupold will never change its ways until its pocket book is impacted by this junk there pushing, start costing them profits, and maybe they will pull there heads out, if not, at least you know Terry that no Officers lives, or the people there sworn to protect will be impacted by Leupolds Idioracy.
 
#302
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Ok. I'm going to jump on the dogpile here.

I used to shoot BR. Really, weight wise, the LCS series of scopes rule the roost. Plus you can have them frozen and use one of Gene Bucky's mounts to achieve utmost accuracy and you basically end up with an Unertl style scope with external adjustments. They come in 35x45mm, 40x45mm, and 45x45mm. I purchased two 45x45mm's totalling right around 2,200 dollars shipped.

They arrived, I mounted one and the other was backup. I got it mounted, and what do you know, a canted reticle. Not just a little bit either. At least 5-7 degrees. Although frustrated, I was happy I had a backup. Well, you can guess what was wrong with the second... canted reticle. Clearly the same guy with a 5-7 canted head QC'd them as they came off the line.

I sent both in for service, brand new. Leupold came good on the service, but whats the point? I had a rifle with no optics for 4 weeks. They came back, fixed, free of charge, but they were immediately sold at about a 150 dollar loss per. Those were the last two Leupolds I owned. They were all replaced with NF BR models.

Will I own another Leupold? Nope. I'm not going to bitch about where parts are made, or who assembles them. In todays global market, its hard to avoid these kinds of things. But, there are LOTS of good companies that sub parts and pieces out, and they are just fine. Why? Because they maintain the same QC process on foriegn products as they do on domestic products. Its just good business practice.

The problem is multi-facetted; for me, it was specifically QC. Leupold is established, and has a solid customer base that believes the company is the same company that it was 20 years ago. Unfortunately, it is or possibly worse.

They cannot expect to keep people when they continue to charge the current market value on a product that is not on the same plane as the current market quality. If they want to sell 1980s technology and quality, they need to charge likewise. If they want to charge NF prices, they will have to produce NF quality products.

This isn't a rant. Its just my observations. I'm not going to wish their demise or prosperity. I believe to become what they once were, they must:

1. Listen to the customer.

2. Take a good hard look at their competition and what it takes to not only compete with them, but surpass them in value, quality, QC and CS.
 
#303
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

I knew it was time to STOP using Leupold products when I could actually remember the address of the Service Department. I sent back 3 vari-x III's and 2 Mk4 "Tactical" Long Range scopes.They always fix them and send them right back-apparently the service department gets ALOT of PRACTICE.
 
#304
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

http://cgi.ebay.com/Leupold-Clone_W0QQit...=item5d27e25cae

just go and buy this
chances are it's made in the same factory
smile.gif
 
#306
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Anyone in the Pac NW who read my post want to go on a factory tour? Or see if they give them anymore? I want to see if all of those machines that filled upi the 125,000 sq foot factory are still working and if the 600 Americans many who are 30 year plus employees still put the scopes together from parts made out on the floor?

Derek
 
#307
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek Myers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone in the Pac NW who read my post want to go on a factory tour? Or see if they give them anymore? I want to see if all of those machines that filled upi the 125,000 sq foot factory are still working and if the 600 Americans many who are 30 year plus employees still put the scopes together from parts made out on the floor?

Derek </div></div>

I'm too far from you but I'd like to know as well.
smile.gif
 
#308
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

ok, got off the phone with the director of military/LE division and he adamantly assures me that the Mark4's are made in Oregon by Americans to this day as they always have been. if there's any LEO's out there that would like to join me on a factory tour please PM me and I'll make the arrangements as I'd like to do so as well.
 
#309
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Sage,

I would like you to ask your contact why they marked their scopes with "made in U.S.A" until recently? Every Mk4 we have gotten in the shop recently has been void of this or any other country of origin. Ask him to also define "made". Assembling parts and sub-assemblies does not define that word in many peoples minds.

I asked Leupold reps this exact question over the phone and got differing responses. I sincerely would like a direct answer.

Derek,
No doubt, Leupold production is still huge. Heck they were even running main tubes for some other scope companies at one time. I heard that they are the largest aluminum user/recycler in that part of the country. However, regardless of how many employees they have or how much production they have there, if there are too many foreign components and assemblies in a product, that product cannot be legally marked with "made in USA".

Their product output for just the middle and low cost hunting markets is so huge that making and assembling a few of those associated parts would employ hundreds of people and tie up lots of floor space.

Again, one of my hangups is not where they are making their components but the integrity of their marketing and brand/trademark loyalties.

I have a couple of older Leupolds and use them regularly to test fire rifles. I trust them. I would like Leupold to become what they used to be and allow me to trust them again.

I would like to qualify something.
While I stand 110% behind my wording and feelings about the way I titled this thread months ago, I stand ready to admit I am wrong about the origins of Leupolds quality problems and misleading product marking/branding. I have yet to have anyone prove otherwise so I will stubornly come to my own conclusions based on what I personally hear and see.

While Leupold certainly does not have to answer to me just because I am dissapointed with them, I do feel that they could easily cut such discussions as this off at the roots if they wanted to.

I wish they would change their focus, resources and long term goals to produce a product line that I could purchase and use with the same confidence I had in them 20 years ago.
 
#310
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Terry, I actually bumped into the Production Manager of the new Tactical Division today at the range and snagged a card from him. I will email him Monday and get your answers the best I can, I might shoot with him next week as well so I'll do my best to get as much clarification as possible.

Jason

PS...How are the 260's coming?
wink.gif
 
#311
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

At least they do seem to be listening a little bit. They have the new M5 mill knobs and the new 34mm scope. I might try their new CQBSS scope on my AR this year.

I also wish i could have confidence in their rifle scopes. Even if you never have a issue, confidence in your gear will mess with your head when you are on the firing line. Its not worth it to me to miss a opportunity on a once in a lifetime game animal. I couldn't imagine not being confident im my gear on a two way range..
 
#315
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

No torch here. I know they build a crapload of parts and employ allot of people in Portland. Everyone spits out something they shouldnt every once in a while, but when its widely known or seems to be the standard then something could be done to improve the quality regardless where the problem lies. 100% made in usa is almost impossible anymore.

Jason, you should feel special every day. Just make sure you lick the windows on the inside
laugh.gif
 
#316
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also wish i could have confidence in their rifle scopes. Even if you never have a issue, confidence in your gear will mess with your head when you are on the firing line. Its not worth it to me to miss a opportunity on a once in a lifetime game animal.</div></div>

I was thinking the exact same thing reading through this post tonight. Two years ago i had a VX-III lr 6.5-20. Went on a black bear hunt and took a few shots at a black bear at 300yds. Complete misses. I was stunned to say the least! 300yds is a chip shot for me. I left the rifle untouched and went to the range when i got home. My zero had moved to 3.5moa left and 1.5moa high. I was missing his head by over 15" (I was so confident I could hit him I was aiming between his eyes). I will personnally never own another Leupold. If that had been a trophy animal that scope would have been wrapped around a tree! Not saying that failures shouldn't happen, they do, but it definetly gets in your head the next time you are behind the rifle!
 
#318
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brand692</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok. I'm going to jump on the dogpile here.

I used to shoot BR. Really, weight wise, the LCS series of scopes rule the roost. Plus you can have them frozen and use one of Gene Bucky's mounts to achieve utmost accuracy and you basically end up with an Unertl style scope with external adjustments. They come in 35x45mm, 40x45mm, and 45x45mm. I purchased two 45x45mm's totalling right around 2,200 dollars shipped.

They arrived, I mounted one and the other was backup. I got it mounted, and what do you know, a canted reticle. Not just a little bit either. At least 5-7 degrees. Although frustrated, I was happy I had a backup. Well, you can guess what was wrong with the second... canted reticle. Clearly the same guy with a 5-7 canted head QC'd them as they came off the line.

I sent both in for service, brand new. Leupold came good on the service, but whats the point? I had a rifle with no optics for 4 weeks. They came back, fixed, free of charge, but they were immediately sold at about a 150 dollar loss per. Those were the last two Leupolds I owned. They were all replaced with NF BR models.

Will I own another Leupold? Nope. I'm not going to bitch about where parts are made, or who assembles them. In todays global market, its hard to avoid these kinds of things. But, there are LOTS of good companies that sub parts and pieces out, and they are just fine. Why? Because they maintain the same QC process on foriegn products as they do on domestic products. Its just good business practice.

The problem is multi-facetted; for me, it was specifically QC. Leupold is established, and has a solid customer base that believes the company is the same company that it was 20 years ago. Unfortunately, it is or possibly worse.

They cannot expect to keep people when they continue to charge the current market value on a product that is not on the same plane as the current market quality. If they want to sell 1980s technology and quality, they need to charge likewise. If they want to charge NF prices, they will have to produce NF quality products.

This isn't a rant. Its just my observations. I'm not going to wish their demise or prosperity. I believe to become what they once were, they must:

1. Listen to the customer.

2. Take a good hard look at their competition and what it takes to not only compete with them, but surpass them in value, quality, QC and CS. </div></div>

Canted retical's seem to be very common with Leupold. (Come to think about it, I'v never had that problem with any other brand.) Anyway, if they don't care if the aiming part of the scope is right what makes you think they care about the rest of it? They told me they "allow" a few deg. of cant, I told them.... I DON'T! I don't really care where they are made or who put's them together, junk is junk.
 
#319
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I took a hard fall last year and wen i re zeroed i was off 13moa at 100yds. The rocks didn't play nice with my MK4. </div></div>

I guess I've got some dogs in this fight as well.

In all honesty Glenn, do you think they would have played nice with anything else? A respectful question, I'm learning here. I have a couple of Mark 4s; considering a scope for my CheyTac. Would love a NF, money, as always, the issue. Do you think another scope may have survived the fall? I've always considered my optics to be the most important yet most fragile part of my rifle, and am probably neurotic about even the slightest bang/ding.

And, in a question to everyone else, aside from personal experience (which I lend a lot of credence to), is there any side by side comparisons of shock survival of these scopes? I remember the old urban legend about the USMC Unertl being used to hammer a nail and still hold zero...
 
#320
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been to Leupold (this week no less) but I don't want to interrupt the villagers since their torches are already lit. </div></div>

Are you trying to catch everybody up on your daily blog or do you have something to contribute? I've been to China Lake but couldn't begin to tell you what the radar signature of an F22 looks like.

If you have hard information rather than opinions or something that a Leupold rep quoted, I would really like you to share.
 
#321
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

brand692, you nailed it with <span style="font-weight: bold">QC</span> and <span style="font-weight: bold">CS</span>. I would add another: <span style="font-weight: bold">Commitment</span>. On another board, one member (Thud) called my earlier post "whiney", and perhaps it sounded that way. That was not the intent. I think perhaps Thud is involved and I am committed. The difference is found in your typical breakfast of ham and eggs: the chicken is involved and the pig is committed.

It saddens me to see great companies stop caring about the very customers who contributed to their success. Although the hunter is Leupold's bread and butter, how many ads have you seen over the years cashing in on demanding benchrest shooters and rugged military/tactical shooters choosing Leupold? Minute of deer is not that hard to achieve but precision shooters, short and long distance, are a whole other breed and if these guys choose Leupold, they had to be the best. Quality by association.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Customer Service:</span> My wife spent 26 years in Customer Service for a hydraulics manufacturer who supplied John Deere, JI Case, Caterpillar, and others. She would get up from her desk (honestly), walk out to the shop floor, and rummage through boxes, to find parts for customers who had equipment down....even when the computer said they were out of stock. Several times I have seen her drive our own vehicle, using our gas, on her own time, to deliver a needed part to the airport, after hours, to get a customer's part to them. Caterpillar,JD, and the little guy surely appreciated that. Sadly, that company was bought out, they relocated CS, and she left to build BMWs in Spartanburg, SC. The customer service profession lost a great one.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Quality Assurance/Control:</span> After military service, school, and construction work in my twenties, I have spent 24 years in quality assurance performing detailed part layouts in precision measurement labs. After 11 years in hydraulics, 10 years in automotive fuel pumps, and now three in plastic injection molding components, I have some understanding of drawings, tolerances, and sound measurement principles. Although my primary tools are Coordinate Measuring Machines, I have purchased/programmed/operated many types of costly dimensioning equipment. (One machine alone cost $100K plus to determine how "round" a part is.) All of this to verify that the measured part meets drawing requirements and report my findings to engineering/quality/manufacturing. When parts are reported to be out-of-spec, there is a strong desire to "shoot the messenger." Next is a strong push to "find it in spec." Finally, comes the decision to reject, rework, or use as is. With the implementation of Just in Time manufacturing, more frequently the decision has been to "use as is" because the part is really "good enough." Therein lies the quality problem: "good enough" becomes the slippery slope to canted reticles and faulty accelerators/brake pedals. If these two giants can fail, how safe is our manufacturing base with this "good enough" mindset?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Commitment:</span> I measure to the best of my ability, report as accurately as I can, and stand my ground as best I can. I don't always win but I do have the courage of my convictions. I resigned the hydraulics company after I discovered that my Corporate QA director had forged a dimensional layout which was rejected by the military contractor. I was directed to clean up his mess. I protested up to the company President, received no support, and resigned.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Lastly, Thud</span>, in your 6mm BR dot com profile, you list your occupation as manufacturing guru. Perhaps that explains your interpretation of my post as whiney. Dedicated QA people are a thorn in manufacturing's side. In your personal attack on me, you suggested that I get over it, move on to another product, and shut up. I will never get over my distaste for Leupold's current business ethics. I have moved on to: 9 NF NXSs, 1 S&B, 2 Eotechs, and 2 ACOGs. I will shut up when I choose, not at your command. Rather than debate you, sir, I will simply invite you to join me in my commitment to turn manufacturing around in this country. Be part of the solution and not part of the problem. Be committed---not involved. Don't accept making parts that are "good enough." We all lose when that happens.

 
#322
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been to Leupold (this week no less) but I don't want to interrupt the villagers since their torches are already lit.



</div></div>

When it comes to Premier, it looks like your one of the villagers too!
 
#323
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been to Leupold (this week no less) but I don't want to interrupt the villagers since their torches are already lit. </div></div>

Are you trying to catch everybody up on your daily blog or do you have something to contribute? I've been to China Lake but couldn't begin to tell you what the radar signature of an F22 looks like.

If you have hard information rather than opinions or something that a Leupold rep quoted, I would really like you to share. </div></div>

Terry, its not as if there isn't factory tour videos available publicly for anyone to see that's interested. And to be perfectly clear, I went by Leupold to let them know I'm done buying their products until they get their act together (QC, product features, etc). However, this thread is a lynch mob that wouldn't take place if this were any other manufacturer.

But yeah, they have an actual giant manufacturing operation in Portland.

 
#324
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

[/quote]

In all honesty Glenn, do you think they would have played nice with anything else?
[/quote]

I have taken worse falls with lesser scopes (nikon) and higher end scopes. Never had anything go that much. in AK i fell into a creek with my nightforce, bounced off the big rocks with gun on my shoulder, so i landed on it. We made some long shots after without even thinking about it.
 
#325
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1ZNUF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In all honesty Glenn, do you think they would have played nice with anything else? I have a couple of Mark 4s; considering a scope for my CheyTac. Would love a NF, money, as always, the issue. Do you think another scope may have survived the fall? I've always considered my optics to be the most important yet most fragile part of my rifle, and am probably neurotic about even the slightest bang/ding.</div></div>


I know your questions were directed at Glen but i would like to comment as well. The Leupold i had also had a canted reticle.
My scope lost its zero, i was able to take it to the range and rezero. I never felt the same about that scope even though it appeared to track after the incedent. I spent a couple hundred more for an NSX than i would have on a MK4. I have drug, beat, and banged the NSX through several competitions and high country hunts and it NEVER lost its 100yd zero. It was bulletproof and repeatable.

My buddy has a MK4, he is the only person i know first hand that has NOT had a failure with his 1 leupold product (yet). I have witnessed 4 failures from <span style="text-decoration: underline">different</span> leupold scopes just in my close circle of friends.

A MK4 runs about $1100, you can buy an NXS for $1400. $300 more isnt worth a much more rugged optic? it is to me!

The kind of hunting i do demands a rugged optic. The high country is a tough place to be neurotic about dings.
 
#326
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

858,

I will give you that.
There have been some people posting into this thread with unrealistic expectations of Leupold. I also agree that some of the tone (which can be wildly misconstrued on the internet) in some of the posts is about like a lynch mob and I hate that. It is counterproductive to encouraging change at Leupold and also takes the wind out of the original intent of this thread.

As far as it not taking place if brand X was substituted for Leupold, I am not sure. I can assure you that I would have started the same bitch and whine session if I had the same positive history and then crappy experience with ANY other player. And yes, may have gotten less comments and my pee pee slapped if I mentioned the wrong name.

I would hope that I could substantiate my dissappointment with actual experience and research rather than opinion and emotion. I would think that anyone posting about any company should at least have something solid and tangible to base their communication on.

I still think of Leupold as a misled giant. Much talent, experience and resources. Led with proper direction and goals, they could come back again as a top tier scope maker instead of a top tier marketing giant riding on their past, and well deserved good product branding.

We should all realize that if Leupold wakes up and gets their shit together, it will drive every player in the industry to play harder and stay on top of their game even more. You, me and all the serious users out there will benefit regardless of what major brand they are issued or purchase to mount on their rifles.

 
#328
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Derek, the question is already in and I'm eagerly waiting a response.

FWIW I'm just one guy that has had only great experiences with Leupy but if I find out they are BS's folks on country of origin I will tear up my contract and tell them to take a hike.

regarding production here's an interesting peice of trivia: Leupold is second only to Boeing in the amount of American aluminum stock they buy for their factory. I think that's a pretty good sign right there.

at any rate...more info to come. in the meantime: happy shooting




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sage,

I would like you to ask your contact why they marked their scopes with "made in U.S.A" until recently? Every Mk4 we have gotten in the shop recently has been void of this or any other country of origin. Ask him to also define "made". Assembling parts and sub-assemblies does not define that word in many peoples minds.

I asked Leupold reps this exact question over the phone and got differing responses. I sincerely would like a direct answer.

Derek,
No doubt, Leupold production is still huge. Heck they were even running main tubes for some other scope companies at one time. I heard that they are the largest aluminum user/recycler in that part of the country. However, regardless of how many employees they have or how much production they have there, if there are too many foreign components and assemblies in a product, that product cannot be legally marked with "made in USA".

Their product output for just the middle and low cost hunting markets is so huge that making and assembling a few of those associated parts would employ hundreds of people and tie up lots of floor space.

Again, one of my hangups is not where they are making their components but the integrity of their marketing and brand/trademark loyalties.

I have a couple of older Leupolds and use them regularly to test fire rifles. I trust them. I would like Leupold to become what they used to be and allow me to trust them again.

I would like to qualify something.
While I stand 110% behind my wording and feelings about the way I titled this thread months ago, I stand ready to admit I am wrong about the origins of Leupolds quality problems and misleading product marking/branding. I have yet to have anyone prove otherwise so I will stubornly come to my own conclusions based on what I personally hear and see.

While Leupold certainly does not have to answer to me just because I am dissapointed with them, I do feel that they could easily cut such discussions as this off at the roots if they wanted to.

I wish they would change their focus, resources and long term goals to produce a product line that I could purchase and use with the same confidence I had in them 20 years ago. </div></div>
 
#329
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1ZNUF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I took a hard fall last year and wen i re zeroed i was off 13moa at 100yds. The rocks didn't play nice with my MK4. </div></div>

I guess I've got some dogs in this fight as well.

In all honesty Glenn, do you think they would have played nice with anything else? A respectful question, I'm learning here. I have a couple of Mark 4s; considering a scope for my CheyTac. Would love a NF, money, as always, the issue. Do you think another scope may have survived the fall? I've always considered my optics to be the most important yet most fragile part of my rifle, and am probably neurotic about even the slightest bang/ding.

And, in a question to everyone else, aside from personal experience (which I lend a lot of credence to), is there any side by side comparisons of shock survival of these scopes? I remember the old urban legend about the USMC Unertl being used to hammer a nail and still hold zero... </div></div>

Just an FYI,

I was shooting prone in my pickup trucks bed(on bags)with my 34LB 375CT with my newly mounted NF 5.5-22 on top,at close to 1 mile away.I went to step over the gun and accidentally knocked the gun over 180 degrees right onto the scope.It landed right onto one of my other steel plates.I was sick!!! to say the least.After inspecting the scope I could only find a some scratches in the finish.I was curious if I'd be anywhere close to the far away steel plate I had previously been shooting at.AS near as I could tell the scope had not shifted.I still hit it a few times.

The only Leupold I own now is on my pellet gun.

Steve
 
#330
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

there are other brands breaking -

is it FUN to trash Leupold ?

i guess so . . .

if you have an issue with Leupold , their product, their service,

take it up with them

and quit buying their product , ie., let your wallet do the talking

BUT YOU KIDDING YOURSELF , if you think other brands are not breaking

heavy use of an optic, will cause failures, NO MATTER the brand

there are others on Hide , who can chime in , but Premier has failures, IOR does too, Night Force , as well

to compare apples to apples, would take time and money

destructive testing, of EACH brand, long term testing

and WOULD BE TOTALLY awesome but probably NOT gonna happen

when comparing products , to say that yours failed , and joe blow's failed, but the 'other' brand didn't is JUST NOT VALID .

but if you have a group sample size , that is equal for both brands, that would be a start; do the same testing, same usage volume, that means more;

another factor that contributes to manufacturing , is total volume of products produced

so if Leupold is making 100,000 MK4 scopes annually, and brand X is making 10,000 , do you think there might be a difference in expectations there ?

so , its more fair to compare failures per 100 units produced

right now all we are hearing about is , one unit here and one unit there .

which may be indicative of a quality issue, but too, may not be
due to production volume for Leupold
 
#331
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

So what do you tell the guy who traveled 1200 miles to take a class.. he paid $1500 for the class, plus rental car, hotels, meals, and by the first day it fails... now he goes from what he thought was a solid optics with a stellar reputation to being the guy holding up the class while we run up, get a new scope for him, usually I am pulling one of my NF off to switch it for him. If you want to play the one up and working, the NF I use is heavily used, my S&Bs too, and guess what, of all of them, with more combined rounds than I can count, and only one scope has ever gone back for repair. They well worn and definitely show signs of use.

yes, other brands fail, but not nearly with the frequency as we are seeing with Leupold. it's every week in some cases, and even in the military classes we have Nightforce on the unit rifles next to Leupold... but I don't see the NF failing nearly as much, it's stark the reality of it, especially when you see more than 1 or 2 a week.

It's easily 20 to 1 when you compare the Nightforces on the line with the military units, this last class had 4 Leupolds on the line, 1 failed the first day, the remainders where USO, NF, and S&B... Do we see others fail, sure but not nearly as much.

If you want to start a generic scope failure thread go ahead, but don't be surprised by the results. Facts are what the facts are, in a class of 15 Leupolds on the line I expect and account for anywhere from 2 to 5 scopes to go down, I don't figure that with the same number of NF on the line. Its closer to 1 per every six months of classes, not 1 for every six people.

Its our fault because they make it so easy.
 
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#332
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

I just can't resist after a little googling:

"...On a March afternoon in 2002, Master Corporal Arron Perry killed an enemy combatant from 2,310 meters (2,526 yd/1.435 miles) and Corporal Rob Furlong killed an enemy combatant from 2,430 meters (2,657 yd/1.509 miles) with 750 grain Hornady A-MAX very-low-drag bullets."

<span style="font-weight: bold">"In Canadian service, the standard telescopic sight is a Leupold Mark 4 16x40mm LR/T M1 Riflescope</span> optical sight. <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">McMillan also endorses the Nightforce NXS 8–32x56 Mil-dot telescopic sight for the Tac-50."</span></span>

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMillan_Tac-50
 
#333
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Just goes to show you. Perception of quality does not equal quality. You listen to some circles talk, the Mk4 is the best scope on the planet.

So many different ideas and viewpoints. When it comes to talking about the "best" scopes, when money is not an argument... leupold hasn't been in the running for quite some time now.

Lately, it seems they are also losing the "best for your money" category.

I can't tell you how many people I've heard in conversation pop off about how "leupold makes the best scopes on the planet" only to take them out in the parking lot afterward to let them look through my nightforce and be rudely awakened to how little they actually know.

Fact is that most folks base their "knowledge" off of shit they've heard or read. Not many people have the need or the financial ability to purchase enough different scopes of higher quality to make a subjective observation.

If you have someone going from a cheapo scope to a mk4, they think its just amazing. But if you take a guy that shoots a S&B and put him behind a mk4, he's liable to throw up on your gun.

So you can call it leupold bashing if you want, but last I checked... everybody here is entitled to their opinion. It is my opinion that leupold hasn't given a rats shit about the tactical shooting community for quite some time. Now they jump up and say "ooh pick me pick me" by throwing up a "tactical" website and coming out with a couple new scopes. I'm not fooled. They have a shitload of work to do just to catch up.

In the mean time, companies like vortex and premier will be getting my money via liberty optics!

As far as where something is made, I could care less anymore. Made in the USA used to mean something. However, thanks to unions and bullshit government regulation and taxes... all it means now is that it will cost more. So if some little kid in a sweatshop in china assembles it correctly and works as advertised, I could care less where the hell it comes from.

Maybe some day the people in this country will wake up, and take the power back from the government. Until that happens, companies will outsource to other countries. If you don't like it... DO SOMETHING about it during the next election.
 
#334
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Please, guys in the military make due with what they are issued, they take no part in the decision in most cases... SEALs use NF across the board, as well Crane puts NF on the Mk13s... The guys on the ground have very little say and I can promise you, those who do, are not buying Leupold. In those cases its usually NF & S&Bs on the line, call Canada and ask what their Tier 1 guys use... ? I'll give this hint, it doesn't start with L.
 
#335
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what do you tell the guy who traveled 1200 miles to take a class.. he paid $1500 for the class, plus rental car, hotels, meals, and by the first day it fails... now he goes from what he thought was a solid optics with a stellar reputation to being the guy holding up the class while we run up, get a new scope for him, usually I am pulling one of my NF off to switch it for him. If you want to play the one up and working, the NF I use is heavily used, my S&Bs too, and guess what, of all of them, with more combined rounds than I can count, and only one scope has ever gone back for repair. They well worn and definitely show signs of use.
</div></div>

What do you tell the guy who flies all the way to Afghanistan and his S&B fails?
 
#336
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">But if you take a guy that shoots a S&B and put him behind a mk4, he's liable to throw up on your </span>gun</span>.


I completely disagree. I have currently owned and shot S&B, NF, IOR and other high end scopes and my Mark 4's still look damn fine from dusk till dawn. if there is a difference it may be noticeable on a case-to-case basis but the exaggeration of ' throwing up on your gun' is ignorant. I think the issue here is not quality of glass but quality of the internals. Japan has been making affordable and excellent glass for some time now, just ask Hasselblad.
 
#337
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

George,

I respect and like you. Regardless of any differences in opinions and ways of getting things done,I hope that doesn't change.

I have seen just about every brand of optic fail or have enough issues to warrant a trip back to the maker. The problem being hashed out here is in the huge percentage of faults/failures with the Leupold LE/T/LR/Mk4 line.

I would like to argue against your numbers and percentage logic for a moment. . .

First strip all Leupold products that aren't in our arena of use from your numbers. I have no hard data but would make a W.A.G. that only 5% of the Leupold volume remains. Now take that 5% and compare it to the number of scopes made for this market niche by other companies. Suddenly, the numbers are more realistic. Probably still more Leupold but not the numbers everyone throws out.

Secondly, I would like you to remember that even if Leupold shipped 2 million Mark 4 scopes per day versus Brands X, Y and Z only shipping 100 scopes, all of that is null and void when you confine your pass/fail data to rifle classes where the numbers of each brand are rather equally represented. Suddenly, the statistical sample is not only well balanced without having to worry about percentages but you have a really uniform operating environment where most all of the scopes are being run through the same paces. This is unique and valuable information because no one can claim the the brand with a high failure rate was used harder, faster, longer. . . . .

And I sincerely mean it when I answer you that I am not attempting to trash Leupold or push any other brand in particular over them in this thread.

Respectfully,
Terry
 
#338
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Lowlight, former military guys buy scopes from me all the time and guess what their most requested brand is? Leupold. why? because it served them well in the service and they trust them. That speaks a lot to me. and in case anyone thinks I'm an armchair dealer I won 'distributor of the year' plaques for two years consecutively in 2004 and 2005. now maybe things have changed since then and quality is down...if that's truly the case then I'm going to sell NF or USO.
 
#339
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

That's not surprising.

Prior to buying a scope with their own money, most of those guys have never shot anything but a Leupold, which (a) they didn't pay for, and (b) if it broke, Uncle Sam replaced them at no cost to them.

I have several Leupold scopes, which have served me well, and will probably continue to. If they break, I'll send them back to Leupold for repair.

However, I probably won't buy another. Leupold has been behind the curve on features, i.e., mil/mil, FFP, for years, and while they're catching up now, the price range for their scopes with those features is in the same ballpark as Nightforce.

In this business, "good enough" is not where you want to be - and right now, that's where Leupold is.
 
#340
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Lindy, I think your right on the money. the guys probably won't have had exposure to much of anything else in all likeliness.

I was pretty shocked when I heard what the new Mark5's will be selling for. ugh. not good.
 
#341
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Former Military guys can mean anything, a guy who "saw" a Leupold on a rifle, as well a former military guy is likely not to be carrying $2500+ for an S&B so at $1000 a Leupold is a name he knows and something he can afford.

I see active military guys almost every week, they are very cut and dry on the subject, it either works or it doesn't and they don't spend their days contemplating the differences between S&B, NF and Leupold, they are more concerned with which brand of beer to buy, who is playing in the Super Bowl and which bar has the hottest waitresses and the best buffet. Scopes are so far down the list --- its the guys NOT in that unit that are worried about it, because they don't know better.

When people come to classes as civilians who were former military, they will tell you, they bought a Leupold for the above reasons, even without experiencing the optic first hand. Meanwhile they are issued with the rifle, there are spares in the team box and they are constantly being changed in & out. So the guys who saw them never get the full on experience the operators who actually use them do.

Some units run Leupold, NF and S&B all together, I have also seen USOs within the same unit, so the idea that you can hammer down anything besides the rifles that are "systems' where Leupold is part of, well... try again.

Anything can fail and usually do, but the percentages are by far working against them. I have seen a S&B 5-25X get the windage knob sheared off and the scope still worked, I have seen an owner spray compressed air on the objective and crack it, he finished the match with it, but I have not seen one just stop working correctly, I can't say that about Leupold.

You can form your own opinion, sell whatever makes you feel good. Clearly they have name recognition, but that doesn't mean they are maintaining the quality people have come to expect from that name. You may "sell them" but we "use" them, there is a distinct difference between owning and using, selling and seeing the end results are two different things.
 
#342
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Lowlight, I appreciate the explanation. this discourse helps me to do my job better. and hopefully that will translate into helping the good guys stay alive.
 
#343
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What do you tell the guy who flies all the way to Afghanistan and his S&B fails?

</div></div>

You say, here you go Marine, here's your new Premier Heritage...



I know I should not hzve done that, but I couldn't resist!
 
#344
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sagebrush</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but the exaggeration of ' throwing up on your gun' is ignorant. I think the issue here is not quality of glass but quality of the internals. </div></div>

At what point did I talk about the "glass?" Quit putting words in my mouth. I said if they got behind a mk4 they'd throw up... not if they LOOKED through one. By "got behind one" I also assumed they would be USING IT.

If you aren't going to read my post, and comprehend it... then you don't have any need to respond to me. Especially if you are going to pop off at the mouth about being "ignorant" when you quite obviously are not knowing what the hell it is you are reading. The "glass" as you put it, is quite far down on my list when it comes to selecting an optic. With the high dollar stuff, its a forgone conclusion that the glass will be acceptable. Even the shitbox mk4's which you seem to cherrish have acceptable glass by most people's standards. So who gives a shit about it?

I was referring to the function and operation of it. Grab any one of your mk4's and run the turrets and power ring a bit. Then go grab a S&B or a nightforce, or a few others and do the same. Then come back and tell me the user will not be able to tell the difference.
 
#346
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Accepted.

Just goes to show you how things that may be important to some folks, aren't important to others.

I am very used to ruffling feathers when it comes to leupold users. They get very pissy when I tell them that their scope just doesn't cut the mustard for me. Sometimes they get downright confrontational. Then I show them a few of my other scopes, and it is literally like someone seeing sunlight for the first time.

Instead of confrontational, they are overwhelmingly apologetic and thankful that I took the time to help them avoid sounding like an idiot in the future.

Base your decisions off REAL experience, from guys like lowlight and others that truly use their hardware. They can tell you what works and what doesn't with little effort. That is the experience you gain by schooling hundreds of people each year. Few people get to see that much different hardware in the course of a year.

Thusly, when lowlight or Jacob talk... I shut the fuck up and listen. Then ask questions if necessary.
wink.gif
 
#347
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

i'm going to post my 1800yd goat shot.......oh yeah it was freezing rain/snow (3 different types of snow) hammered shit and blowing smegma ......MY Leupold held up well, the one with the crushed tube and kindergarten paint job.....the older one like Lindy got back when premier was doing mildots in Leuppys .....

stay tuned
 
#348
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Lowlight, everyone else, my post about Rob Furlong using a Leupold should have been made [irony]like this[/irony]. The whole point was that the supposed standard issue optic for Canadian Armed Forces (forgive me if I screwed up the official title) was Leupold; however in the same sentence is the phrase "MacMillan also recommends <span style="font-style: italic">NightForce</span>".

I'm only just beginning to get an idea of the depth of the Hide; the big thing I see is people with more experience at half my age (I'm guessing) than I'm likely to have if I quit my job and did nothing but shoot for the rest of my life. That experience is worth more than any magazine or internet rumor, or what I've got hanging off my safe queens. I don't shoot much, and when I do, an equipment failure ruins the little trigger time I do have. I appreciate your experience as it relates to scopes; I don't know that I'll be selling any Leupolds any time soon, but I don't think I'll be buying anymore either for a while. Dogma is a killer; everything changes, some things faster than others.

Respect,

Wes
 
#349
Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

I have two Mk4's that continue to serve me well and most likely I won't be selling them. In fact, I just sent one off to get a TMR put in it. My experience with them has been quite good.

With that said though, I most likely won't be buying any more unless I happen to find a killer deal on one. I can't argue whether or not they have quality issues because my only knowledge of it is what I read here. My bigger gripe is their lack of understanding of the tactical shooting community. For what they are offering, their scopes have become grossly overpriced for the features they offer. There are much better options out there for the same price range.

For now, I'll continue to run the ones I have at least until they fall prey to the quality issues mentioned here. But going forward, I tend not to even look at them when considering a new optic, whether it's for a hunting rifle or tactical rifle.
 
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